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On August 20 2012 05:45 goodkarma wrote:@Thrawn:I looked to the latest votecount, and missed your vote. Jhuyt, too, should be discussed. As the only person on the list I haven't discussed on day 2, let me briefly share my thoughts. I did find Jhuyt scummy enough to vote for day 1, and I don't feel the reasons I originally had for voting him have really changed. And then there's the quote you brought up in your voting post: Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:36 Jhuyt wrote:ok, I found something in Harry's filter, it isn't much but I thought it was kind of interesting. On August 15 2012 12:48 YourHarry wrote:
I will explain later, or maybe it will sort itself out.
FOS Following people still have not posted:
Golbat
Jhuyt
Z-BosoN
Ochrow
In this post he was very clear with whom had not yet posted, so I assume he made the effort to look through the filters and found us. later on he says this: As to why I did not call out Ochrow: I was not even aware of it. How many times did I call lurkers out - I did not make sure that I got every single lurkers out. In fact, I thought in one of the list, I copied lurker list provided by previous poster and eliminated names who posted since then. I simply missed him for some reason... Here he claims that he did not try to find everybody, so he lied, or forgot about it, I'd say he lied. This is the problem with YourHarry, he makes posts that consist of nothing and he makes claims he immediatly retract. It doesn't matter if you're scum or town, this is just bad play on all parts and super anti-town.
For this I'm going to vote for YourHarry##Vote: YourHarry In other words, Jhuyt has chosen to prioritize lynching YourHarry even if he is only a bad town. So in one word, yes. I find him scummy. However, I never really had a strong scum read on him. My day one vote was a combination of a vote based on wishy-washy behavior and semi-lurking. Combined with this one "scumslip," I don't see enough there to convince me he's scummier than Obvious, as "scumslips" can be made by town or scum. Especially with Obvious so hesitant to present any kind of defense against my case posts against his predecessor (and by extension, him) or him.
What did you think about the case I made against him at the top of the page, especially the summary? I think both his words and his actions throughout the game have been scummy.
On August 20 2012 00:11 thrawn2112 wrote:
In summary his posts rarely give off a town read. He often states how useless his opinions are and his scumhunting is mostly based off of hypothetical scenarios containing information a town player wouldn't have. For that I want to issue a very strong FOS against Jhuyt.
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@thrawn2112
On August 20 2012 04:56 thrawn2112 wrote:
Z-Boson, a good town player wouldn't dismiss my case against Jhuyt. Even if you think that I am for sure scum, ignoring any case is not pro-town.
Wait, did I dismiss it? I said:
Of course, NOW that you have a boulder on your shoulders, you suddenly start playing the pro-townie let's lynch lurkers role, because you can't find any other active townie to go ahead and try to lynch. As you have been doing, you completely IGNORED my reasoning as to why a Jhuyt lynch would have been best for town.
I didn't discuss it. I'll be honest, I haven't read it. Just as I haven't read as of yet YourHarry's, which as I skimmed through the pages, seems to be quite troubling. That is quite different from dismissing it.
I will most definitely read your case on him, you can be sure of that.
I think you greatly misrepresented how I've responded to people's cases against me. I've not responded to a small number of posts, but they were a few posts out of the many I've had to respond to. I've spent more than enough time responding to people's cases against me and I don't think most of the people that voted for me are likely to change their vote.
I consider myself to have one of the biggest cases against you. Yet you still have not bothered to respond to it in a satisfactory manner. On my first post against you, had a fairly innocuous point, that was mainly to be intended as a "heads up" so you could better defend yourself. Refer to my point "your lack of reading".
+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2012 10:46 Z-BosoN wrote:@thrawn2112However, I now have a strong suspicion against you. 1) MAIN ARGUMENT: Why ArchRun?+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2012 07:11 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 05:27 Ochrow wrote:My two cents on Shady: My initial inclination when I see somebody being as aggressive as he is, this coming only from live games not forum, is that they are scum. However, every single time that I have been in this sort of situation and gotten a scum vibe from somebody being overly aggressive I have been wrong. So for me that history has me thinking that that Shady is town, just an incredibly aggressive one. However at the same time I think that he may be a bit overly aggressive and reading too much into people's posts, as he has made two rather strong accusations against Solar and JHyut that I feel are more or less unfounded. On Solar: As I originally said I felt that his play was not at all pro-town but, assuming he is telling the truth about the acting and that he didn't just pull it out of his ass, he has really turned around and is very much giving off a townie feel. On YH: So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him. While he was posting one-liners at the beginning, as he said he was actually able to get his point across in them, granted that his point wasn't always a great one to get across (ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). But since his explanation, which to me seems to be entirely understandable, he too is giving off a town feel. As for any reads I have, in most of the games I've played there has been at least one scum that was just purely a lurker, and as such I get a bit of a scum feeling from Archrun. He has only three posts all only a few sentences, long enough to not be pointed out as one-liners but only just. I guess I also get suspicious of any first post that just focuses on O hai thar I'm a townie yay killing scum. While I know everybody is trying to prove themselves as town I just get bad feelings when the substance of somebody's post is: On August 15 2012 10:10 Archrun wrote:
As a Townee, I promote any policy that helps us catch scum, but we must back accusation up with evidence(which this policy should provided) and reason. On top of that in his three posts he doesn't get into what he thinks about who might be scum but is just theorizing or throwing out a soft defense. I may be totally off on here but until he posts a bit more or contributes something of substance I am going to throw out ##FoS ArchrunAs per Solar's question I hope this helps, and if there was any curiosity about the reasoning behind my general consensus post, it seemed like a lot of people were in more or less violent agreement over the Solar issue so I wanted to throw out my understanding of events in the hope that it might lead to shorter and/or fewer posts beating that dead horse. FOS ArchrunArchrun, you have made 3 posts so far and none of them have had anything directly to do with scumhunting. Can you tell us what you think about shady's claims concerning solar, myself, and newharry? You made an FOS on Archrun by saying that he only had made 3 posts and had no scumhunting. However, you completely ignored Golbat, who only has 2 posts with one-dimensional scumhunting claims, being that the FIRST thing he says is that you are the scummiest player, to which you respond with: Is this something I need to defend myself on? I am not sober right now so I don't think I could type a clear response till I wake up. Going to sleep now, I hope to wake up and see some more posts. And you don't mention it again. This seems to me to be a clear, 100% dodge. You give IRL excuses and forget about it, even hinting that you don't feel the need to answer it. You ignore Golbat not once, but twice. A townie thrawn would definitely bother defending himself to a direct attack such as that, and would try to policy-lynch both Golbat and ArchRun. However, you also didn't call JHyut, who also has 2 posts and even worse in quality than both the mentioned posters. Why mention only ArchRun and not Golbat, who called you out or JHyut? Either this is incredibly sloppy play, or you have a scum partner. If we assume the latter, then I can only think of: 1) You are trying to distract people from Golbat by making other accusations, and completely ignored JHyut. 2) You are trying to bus your partner ArchRun so as to draw away suspicion from yourself in case he comes up red. And, you completely ignored JHyut and Golbat. 3) You don't want to call out three people at once for whatever reason and chose someone other than your scum partner. I find this Highly Suspicious. You keep playing the new card, and adding newbie questions that will show other people that you are not very good at this game: + Show Spoiler +All snippets: seeing as this is my first mafia game, how much should i prepare? i'm already planning on reading as many guides as i can but should i read through completed mafia games as well?
from what i've read in the other games your post count is something everyone really pays attention to
how long do these generally take to start? in the rules where it says 'pms are not allowed in this game' does that mean we aren't allowed to send a tl pm to any other player? if so are there any other 'allowed' means of communication between 2 or more players outside of this thread? ok thanks. that's what i assumed was true but i just wanted to confirm it so i dont accidentally break any rules or miss out on a part of the game that i was assuming was not allowed. Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player.
If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK.
Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. I am not really worried, but am trying to learn from other people's experiences if there is any reason to worry. I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Therefore I'm not going to continue posting about it until something happens along the lines of way too many unexplained town deaths. Sorry for the bother, but could you describe what OMGUS means? It's one of the several expressions I see used in the mafia forums of which I have no idea what they mean. This by itself is basically meaningless, but granted that my suspicions in my main argument rely on you "forgetting (or pretending to) people", I can only think that your initial posts were paving the ground for you to not be taken seriously and not have such motives questioned. I've noticed that you have skipped on a few details due to not reading previous posts. a) First instance, from the OP: If there is any sort of issue, you are unsure about some mechanic, or you are just wondering if your devilish scheme is even allowed, feel free to PM me, or ask in-thread with green text. Don't feel shy; these games are meant to be a place to learn and be open. Yet you ask all your questions normally, so you didn't read this or you pretend you don't know this. b) Second instance, questioning Solar: On August 15 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:55 Solarsail wrote:
However, we should always strive for clarity and activeness. From my readings, these are the two master traits we must have if we want to win as townies. This being said, I will strike with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy these virtues!
Hey Shady this guy is VERY SUSPICIOUS for saying exactly the same as me and I think you should get right on questioning him into the ground. What did you two say that was "exactly the same?" It was fairly clear what he meant, since he quoted the specific bolded part. c) Third instance, your latest discussion with me. Confusing YH with NH, heavily misinterpreting my quote saying that "I had a case", and then making another post once I had already retracted my inquiries on Ochrow (you might have been sniped, I don't know). With these arguments, I can conclude that either your play is very very sloppy, or you are trying to paint a picture of yourself as being completely oblivious to the gameplay of Mafia, so as to divert attention and giving a plausible explanation for these "slips" I mentioned. For now, I stay strongly opposed to having three extremely lurky players, and a fairly lurky one (Stutters695). I am inclined to dismiss you as just being sloppy, because my deepest concern is the very VERY high level of lurkyness in this town. Nevertheless, ##FoS thrawn2112
@Shady SandsWhy have you suddenly disappeared? Why haven't you answered my post against you?
We should start discussing our lynch candidates. I am inclined to lynch a lurker on day one. This will: 1) Give us a good chance of catching scum. During at least the last 3 newbie games, there was always a lurking scum or more. With 3 lurkers, we have a 1/3 chance of hitting the mark, instead of 1/4 (assuming that the lack of discussion in D1 will give us a random lynch) 2) Make the other lurkers be more active. 3) Give participial players more time to defend themselves. Is this agreeable?
And whoops, you did it again:
On August 19 2012 07:44 Z-BosoN wrote:@thrawn2112This part (which I quoted from goodkarma's case against you... if you want to even begin to defend yourself, at LEAST read the main accusations against you carefully...): Show nested quote +
As far as the combined case claiming that we are both scum and are working together goes it is based almost entirely off of the timing of our post and the fact that Thrawn copied what I said.
He said you copied what he said, when your post was simultaneous to his. Unless Ochrow, before 3:57, mentioned or hinted at your ideas, that statement is completely unjustified and untrue. How would you have copied him if there was nothing to copy from?
I've hinted at you again and again and again that I was not satisfied with how you were ignoring my posts against you, how poorly you were reading them, and how badly you were responding to them, if at all. It's ridiculous when you take over two hours analyzing someones play, then they answer "um, what exactly do you mean by this?" and don't respond again. You see how I'm responding you here? I'm taking every single comment you made and answering them. Why? Because I disagree with them.
These people are so convinced I'm scum that they just ignore most of what I say and twist the rest of it into evidence against me.
That's a poor excuse not to defend yourself. I am convinced you are scum, but I am willing to listen to your defense. But yea, this defense doesn't exist, the one against MY main posts. Hence, I will continue thinking you are scum.
And the quotes you referenced only look bad when you take them out of context like you've done; they were made days apart and the town atmosphere and conversations were very different.
So if one day you say "I agree with policy lynching. Let's kill them lurkers." and then the other day you say: "Shady Sands has damning evidence on him. Let's kill him.", I am taking it out of context? The only reason for this to happen is if Shady Sands indeed had some mind-boggling damning evidence against him.
But ok, you did say:
(...)I think shady should get the vote, because I'd rather vote for someone who seems scummy after posting a lot than someone who seems scummy but might actually be a town lurker.
So I won't nag too much on you there, even though I think your case against him was weak as shit.
Keep your vote on me if you want but for the sake of scumhunting could you read my case against jhuyt and tell me what you think?
l will. Right before the deadIine even. Your case on Him, and DarthPunk's case on YourHarry. If I find either to be stronger than the one I have on you, I certainly will reconsider my vote.
Hope this time you have read my post, and hope this clears some things up.
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@goodkarma
Ok, just so I can see if I understand you correctly. You still find both thrawn and obvious scum (will say obvious from now on), but you find Obvious more scummy than thrawn, since thrawn is actually contributing and bothering to defend himself (at least against your arguments), you will go for Obvious?
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Zobalt
Many of the accusations you made against me other people also made, and I responded to those. On the point of my reading abilities and me proclaiming newbie (which I admit is something I have not responded to until now) I want to point out that a lot of my newbie questions were things I posted in the thread before the game even started. And saying that I'm scum because I didn't (green /green) a question I asked before the game even started (which other people did as well) to me seems about the weakest reason you could use to call me scum. Having not ever played mafia before a lot of what was in the OP and guides didn't make sense because I had no experience of what context to apply the stuff I was reading, so just because I read a guide did not mean I could have understood everything I read.
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I have no idea why i said "zobalt" lol. sorry Z-Boson
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@Z-boson:
That's the gist of it, but I feel you're oversimplifying things a little. That Thrawn was content with a WIFOM defense early day two, in addition to some of his day one play (as I've already discussed), is enough to still suspect he's scum. But his most recent actions (his defense of my case against him and his most recent cases against others) coincide with what I'd expect from a townie, as instead of going completely on the defensive he's still actively pursuing scum suspects. Further, the vigi claim, though it cannot be 100% supported, can be at least partially supported by a one kill night. And obviously almost completely disproven by another two kill night + Show Spoiler +(there could be two vigis, but really, I highly doubt this)
You're certainly entitled to be dissatisfied with what I've said, but I feel I've explained clearly my stances on my current scum suspects. I've had to repeat myself a few times now, so expect this time to be my last.
You mention you will look into Darthpunk's case on YourHarry and the Thrawn's case on Jhuyt, but I would also appreciate your input on my case against Obvious/Ochrow.
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My current vote, thrawn. He did a very poor job of defending himself initially with the WIFOM and the claim (which if real is both highly convenient and misplaced), but then he's improved by responding to more accusations. I know 'lack of reading' is a general accusation against him but D1 I thought he was responding quite well, in full and with evidence, to all questions asked. So I would say it's just a D2 behaviour to be missing things a little.
I agree with much of gk's posting minus the initial shared QT accusation because that is unlikely to have produced the coincidental posts with the same agenda. The lying to us, lurking, nonaggression and general avoidance of Ochrow/Obvious stands out a lot more (oh and the OMGUS vote) and YH has demonstrated some serious read errors and flip flops if he is indeed town. So my case against Thrawn is mostly by association with YH and Ochrow than directly. I will keep my vote on him because it is a combined one from gk's case and thrawn's individual behaviour. However /unlike/ GK I will not switch around as people's defences go up and down with each post. I will be around at the deadline but I don't plan to switch.
The lurkers simply have not posted enough to make any case as strong as vs Thrawn or vs Obvious so I can't justify voting for them instead of those two. This is possibly by design; if so they are lucky that D1 was intense and D2 was focused on a single case to avoid attention.
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EBWOP: above post in response to this post by Z-boson:
On August 20 2012 06:14 Z-BosoN wrote:
@goodkarma
Ok, just so I can see if I understand you correctly. You still find both thrawn and obvious scum (will say obvious from now on), but you find Obvious more scummy than thrawn, since thrawn is actually contributing and bothering to defend himself (at least against your arguments), you will go for Obvious?
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@SolarSail:
On August 20 2012 06:44 Solarsail wrote:
My current vote, thrawn. He did a very poor job of defending himself initially with the WIFOM and the claim (which if real is both highly convenient and misplaced), but then he's improved by responding to more accusations. I know 'lack of reading' is a general accusation against him but D1 I thought he was responding quite well, in full and with evidence, to all questions asked. So I would say it's just a D2 behaviour to be missing things a little.
I agree with much of gk's posting minus the initial shared QT accusation because that is unlikely to have produced the coincidental posts with the same agenda. The lying to us, lurking, nonaggression and general avoidance of Ochrow/Obvious stands out a lot more (oh and the OMGUS vote) and YH has demonstrated some serious read errors and flip flops if he is indeed town. So my case against Thrawn is mostly by association with YH and Ochrow than directly. I will keep my vote on him because it is a combined one from gk's case and thrawn's individual behaviour. However /unlike/ GK I will not switch around as people's defences go up and down with each post. I will be around at the deadline but I don't plan to switch.
The lurkers simply have not posted enough to make any case as strong as vs Thrawn or vs Obvious so I can't justify voting for them instead of those two. This is possibly by design; if so they are lucky that D1 was intense and D2 was focused on a single case to avoid attention.
So, in other words, you're saying that Thrawn looks scummy by association with Obvious and YourHarry? I've already mentioned this before, but you should vote your strongest scum read. Voting because of association, when none of the suspects have actually flipped, can be dangerous. I've already described how this could cause bias, and it is one of the reasons for switching my vote. Ochrow just outright is a stronger scum read than Thrawn for me right now.
I don't follow your logic when you say you won't switch your vote, when it seems you already have a stronger scum read on Ochrow/Obvious than on Thrawn. If your read is solely based off "association," then I would urge you to reconsider your vote.
And regarding my vote switch, I'm not following a policy of "present your defense and I won't vote for you." But the fact that Ochrow, and now Obvious, have not presented a defense of any kind to the case points against him gives me a stronger scum read on him. His choice to afk from thread until after the vote tells me he's trying to buy enough time to survive today's lynch and make it to the next day, which is scum-motivated behavior.
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On August 20 2012 06:17 thrawn2112 wrote:
Zobalt
Many of the accusations you made against me other people also made, and I responded to those. On the point of my reading abilities and me proclaiming newbie (which I admit is something I have not responded to until now) I want to point out that a lot of my newbie questions were things I posted in the thread before the game even started. And saying that I'm scum because I didn't (green /green) a question I asked before the game even started (which other people did as well) to me seems about the weakest reason you could use to call me scum. Having not ever played mafia before a lot of what was in the OP and guides didn't make sense because I had no experience of what context to apply the stuff I was reading, so just because I read a guide did not mean I could have understood everything I read.
IS THIS WHY I SAID YOU WERE SCUM???
What a pathetic fucking attempt.
In my last post, I clearly stated that it was an attempt to give you a head's up for you to play better.
Right now you are just trying to waste my time, because no, you didn't respond to my post, because you probably skimmed through it and never read it again. I'm not gonna further waste my time on you, because it is completely counter productive. It's like talking to a child. I give up.
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Holy shit, I've been in the game for 7 hours and have 3 posts and am already getting called out for lurking. You guys are doing an incredible job at that policy shit.
I'm just gonna get real with you for a minute, sons. The rest of the you seem to think that killing off the closest thing you have to a confirmed town member (Thrawn) is a good idea and are still holding what I can tell you was simply piss-poor town play from Ochrow against me, the vanilla manilla town member with no super powers. One town lynch today, one town lynch tomorrow, and scum are laughing all the way to the bank.
+ Show Spoiler [in which gk holds a grudge] +On August 20 2012 07:03 goodkarma wrote:@SolarSail: Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:44 Solarsail wrote:
My current vote, thrawn. He did a very poor job of defending himself initially with the WIFOM and the claim (which if real is both highly convenient and misplaced), but then he's improved by responding to more accusations. I know 'lack of reading' is a general accusation against him but D1 I thought he was responding quite well, in full and with evidence, to all questions asked. So I would say it's just a D2 behaviour to be missing things a little.
I agree with much of gk's posting minus the initial shared QT accusation because that is unlikely to have produced the coincidental posts with the same agenda. The lying to us, lurking, nonaggression and general avoidance of Ochrow/Obvious stands out a lot more (oh and the OMGUS vote) and YH has demonstrated some serious read errors and flip flops if he is indeed town. So my case against Thrawn is mostly by association with YH and Ochrow than directly. I will keep my vote on him because it is a combined one from gk's case and thrawn's individual behaviour. However /unlike/ GK I will not switch around as people's defences go up and down with each post. I will be around at the deadline but I don't plan to switch.
The lurkers simply have not posted enough to make any case as strong as vs Thrawn or vs Obvious so I can't justify voting for them instead of those two. This is possibly by design; if so they are lucky that D1 was intense and D2 was focused on a single case to avoid attention.
So, in other words, you're saying that Thrawn looks scummy by association with Obvious and YourHarry? I've already mentioned this before, but you should vote your strongest scum read. Voting because of association, when none of the suspects have actually flipped, can be dangerous. I've already described how this could cause bias, and it is one of the reasons for switching my vote. Ochrow just outright is a stronger scum read than Thrawn for me right now. I don't follow your logic when you say you won't switch your vote, when it seems you already have a stronger scum read on Ochrow/Obvious than on Thrawn. If your read is solely based off "association," then I would urge you to reconsider your vote. And regarding my vote switch, I'm not following a policy of "present your defense and I won't vote for you." But the fact that Ochrow, and now Obvious, have not presented a defense of any kind to the case points against him gives me a stronger scum read on him. His choice to afk from thread until after the vote tells me he's trying to buy enough time to survive today's lynch and make it to the next day, which is scum-motivated behavior.
GK, your points against Obvious are exactly what? The only valid thing you said against me was that I disappeared from the thread for a while. You're so engrossed in your delusion that Ochrow was scum that you're transferring it to me and on the basis of what, exactly? I'd love to try to respond to those allegations but I'm not Ochrow so you present to me an impossible challenge bordering on telepathy. How can I know what Ochrow's long game was when I'm not allowed to contact him? There's no QT to refer to, I'm all by my lonesome here and I can sort of see why maybe his ban could have been on purpose since this game is full of delusional people.
How about you all take a step back and reboot, have a reality check and maybe figure out why it is that the town is hell-bent on destroying itself and who the people behind it are.
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@Obvious,
I'm glad to see you're back.
You're right in that you can't see Ochrow's game plan via telepathy. But you should still be able to help us see Ochrow's motivations from a town perspective (if you indeed are town). What's more, you haven't weighed in on either Thrawn or YourHarry, who are both under heavy suspicion and one of whom (Thrawn) is currently set to be lynched.
It may seem unfair to be expected, as a replacement, to pick up exactly where your predecessor left off, but this is what I'm expecting of you nonetheless. Even after reading a few pages of case posts against the two top lynch candidates you should have some kind of read on them. So please share your impressions with us.
And please share what you think Ochrow's motivations were for his play.
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YourHarry is still my best vote. This is going to be a long case but I'm abridging the non major parts due to wanting to give you guys time to read it. Ask and I'll go into even more detail on parts i skimmed.
Looking at his filter again his voting is just ridiculous. He starts in the thread by linking his filters (post 1) and addressing his different playstyles.
To summarize my meta, in the first 2.5 games, I am quick to make accusations and switch my vote players with little explanation. I decided to change my meta in game 3 where I drew vanilla townie. I played more conservative to avoid suspicion. I am not sure which meta I will choose this game 
Although its pretty obvious which meta he "chose" this game it got me thinking about his motives. Town Harry has no reason to hide how he'll be playing while Scum Harry has just left himself an out in case someone like Shady were to bring up discrepencies in his Meta later.
The next thing that stood out to me was his early vote switching. Please note that these posts were sequential in his filter and his 3rd and 4th total since the start of the game.
On August 15 2012 11:59 YourHarry wrote:
@Z-boson, posting filters is pretty easy. Why not.
@Shady Sands. You are accusing Solarsail of being hostile? You think scums are more likely to respond with hostility?
Thrawn on the other hand is busy posting fluffs and WIFOM statement like "It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case."
##Vote Thrawn
On August 15 2012 12:03 YourHarry wrote:
OK.
##Unvote
##Vote Solarsail
"Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out."
The bolded parts of this quote and the next one are my emphasis on what he omitted from the original posts. Note how the entirety of his reason for voting Thrawn is WIFOM but has only quote from Thrawn as evidence. That quote is about Shady challenging Solar so early. Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case. . Note how he leaves the context of the quote out of his "case" because if you consider what Shady was tunneling Solar so hard about originally it was a pretty weak reason (He said Solar soft accused me of playing safe because I was scum during my first post (also the first of the game).)
His next post is just saying "OK" before switching to Solar. Again his quote was taken out of context. Reading the many guides linked on the library which are incredbly helpful, the most important thing I saw is that the town needs to stay active and stay on point. If we are to lynch anyone it has to be because of real information and evidence, and that has to be readily available from the thread. If we're trying to learn we need a long record to practise analysing.
Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out.
In his first 4 posts he's done nothing at all pro-town. He's tried to mislead us twice with his quotes without ever even pressuring the people he's voted for. This also provides another motive from a scum perspective of devaluing his votes. By switching around all day when it came time to actually vote for the lynch no one even questioned why Harry had placed six votes throughout the day while only building a couple of real cases which were all very weak.
His only other "contributions" for the next two hours are:
spamming the thread with one liners and no real analysis
accusing Mkfuba (confirmed town) of opportunistically jumping onto the Solar badnwagon while twitsting a fairly townie quote into a scum play. Relevant quotes are in spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 15 2012 13:28 YourHarry wrote:
Actually I find mkfuba suspicious. Although I think Solar did act somewhat scummy (and I voted him at one point), I think Solar is town. There were four people who thought Solar was scum: Shady, YourHarry, thrawn, and mkfuba. After three people expressed suspicion on Solar, Mkfuba opportunistically but non-committingly fuels Solar bandwagon:
On August 15 2012 12:33 mkfuba07 wrote:
On August 15 2012 11:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case.
The problem with the second part of this post is that it's not Shady who is sidetracking the conversation. He asked a question and Solarsail is perpetuating the suspicion by not addressing it. Shady started it, Solar is keeping it going. Multiple people have told him to post better and he's ignored us/thrown our advice back in our faces with a snarky comment. No matter what, this isn't pro-town behaviour.
My view on Shady's first accusation (that Solar was obliquely accusing Stutters) is that Shady was overthinking it. I didn't even get a hint of supposition that Solar was accusing Stutters. What makes Solar seem at all suspicious to me has been his reactions the whole time. Nothing scummy yet, but a stubborn refusal to actually participate in pro-town behaviour.
[B]On August 16 2012 01:38 YourHarry wrote: Shady, regarding your accusation of me, the only thing that makes me scummy is this: Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 18:49 Shady Sands wrote:
Mkfuba posted something that was perfectly townish which YH tried to twist into scummy play. Again, I was indeed guilty of this. But this was a result of my strong suspicion that Solar was town. I did realize I was taking things out of context when Mkfuba pointed this out. You accuse me of posting one liners. I often post one liners and not much information is available in the beginning of the day, so few sentences would suffice in explaining reads. One liners can have content. And agreeing with you so readily is not a scummy behavior. Me if anything as scum may even be reluctant to agree with people readily, unless they have a strong case, in fear that people may point things out. @Goodkarma. You did not find Solar scummy based on previous cases at all? What makes you so confident about town going in the wrong direction in accusing Solar. It is almost as if you know his alignment?
Moving on to the next RL day (Aug 16 1AM TL time) his first post is just defending his ridiculous claim that Solarsail is town amidst his spam by saying that he caught a hint that GK and Solar were masons but decided against it when they accused him. The next 6 or 7 posts are all focused on his "case" on Goodkarma. His case entirely revolves around the fact that the breadcrumb he caught that no one else did confirms that GK must either be scum or him and Solar are masons. Throughout the day he tunnels GK while defending himself and adding no additional analysis or quesitoning.
I'll have to continue this in about an hour but just a recap of through page 2 of his filter. He's voteswitched without explinations numerous times, misquoted people intentionally while voting against them. I posted earlier about his obsession with the SK I'd encourage everyone to read and I'd ask people to check out his filter yourselves and see the drastic inconsistencies. I realize this is inconvenient but I'll be back in about an hour.
[b]##VOTE: YourHarry
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EBWOP:
##VOTE: YourHarry
Additionally due to YH's activeness a flip gives us additional information, especially if he's scum. By the same reasoning an Obvious/Ochrow lynch if no one gets behind YH.
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EBWOP2: Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case.
Reading the many guides linked on the library which are incredbly helpful, the most important thing I saw is that the town needs to stay active and stay on point. If we are to lynch anyone it has to be because of real information and evidence, and that has to be readily available from the thread. If we're trying to learn we need a long record to practise analysing.
Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out.
those parts should be bolded, not entire quotes
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Vote count:
Thrawn2112 (4): Golbat, Solarsail, YourHarry, Z-BosoN
YourHarry (3): DarthPunk, Jhuyt, Stutters695
Obvious.660 (1): goodkarma
goodkarma (1): Obvious.660
Jhuyt (1): thrawn2112
Thrawn2112 currently set to be lynched. Just over 1 hour until the deadline.
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@Z-boson, Obvious
I see we've ditched logic in favour of the impassioned rant.
Obvious, that is the worst deliberate post in this thread. You still didn't respond to the thrawn case, or any ongoing case except yourself. No one is expecting you to defend Ochrow's every word, you're responding to a threat that doesn't exist and you're not even up for lynch so I can't call it desperation.
You claimed town. Why would you even do that.
You're actually blaming Ochrow ('maybe he banned himself'). However those bad posts form part of your record, so with the information you have you can do a LOT more than simply throw your hands up.
You mentioned a QT to deny it. Everyone had given up on QT based speculation, why would you bring it back in?
You continued to OMGUS attack goodkarma, when he has been asking only for the kind of info everyone needs from you as a replacement player.
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On August 20 2012 07:36 Stutters695 wrote:
Additionally due to YH's activeness a flip gives us additional information, especially if he's scum. By the same reasoning an Obvious/Ochrow lynch if no one gets behind YH.
That is not a reason to vote, it shouldn't be part of your argument. Flipping people for info is not a good plan when three town players died on the first night. Make sure your case that YH is mafia stands on its own as.
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On August 20 2012 07:21 Obvious.660 wrote:Holy shit, I've been in the game for 7 hours and have 3 posts and am already getting called out for lurking. You guys are doing an incredible job at that policy shit. I'm just gonna get real with you for a minute, sons. The rest of the you seem to think that killing off the closest thing you have to a confirmed town member (Thrawn) is a good idea and are still holding what I can tell you was simply piss-poor town play from Ochrow against me, the vanilla manilla town member with no super powers. One town lynch today, one town lynch tomorrow, and scum are laughing all the way to the bank. + Show Spoiler [in which gk holds a grudge] +On August 20 2012 07:03 goodkarma wrote:@SolarSail: Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:44 Solarsail wrote:
My current vote, thrawn. He did a very poor job of defending himself initially with the WIFOM and the claim (which if real is both highly convenient and misplaced), but then he's improved by responding to more accusations. I know 'lack of reading' is a general accusation against him but D1 I thought he was responding quite well, in full and with evidence, to all questions asked. So I would say it's just a D2 behaviour to be missing things a little.
I agree with much of gk's posting minus the initial shared QT accusation because that is unlikely to have produced the coincidental posts with the same agenda. The lying to us, lurking, nonaggression and general avoidance of Ochrow/Obvious stands out a lot more (oh and the OMGUS vote) and YH has demonstrated some serious read errors and flip flops if he is indeed town. So my case against Thrawn is mostly by association with YH and Ochrow than directly. I will keep my vote on him because it is a combined one from gk's case and thrawn's individual behaviour. However /unlike/ GK I will not switch around as people's defences go up and down with each post. I will be around at the deadline but I don't plan to switch.
The lurkers simply have not posted enough to make any case as strong as vs Thrawn or vs Obvious so I can't justify voting for them instead of those two. This is possibly by design; if so they are lucky that D1 was intense and D2 was focused on a single case to avoid attention.
So, in other words, you're saying that Thrawn looks scummy by association with Obvious and YourHarry? I've already mentioned this before, but you should vote your strongest scum read. Voting because of association, when none of the suspects have actually flipped, can be dangerous. I've already described how this could cause bias, and it is one of the reasons for switching my vote. Ochrow just outright is a stronger scum read than Thrawn for me right now. I don't follow your logic when you say you won't switch your vote, when it seems you already have a stronger scum read on Ochrow/Obvious than on Thrawn. If your read is solely based off "association," then I would urge you to reconsider your vote. And regarding my vote switch, I'm not following a policy of "present your defense and I won't vote for you." But the fact that Ochrow, and now Obvious, have not presented a defense of any kind to the case points against him gives me a stronger scum read on him. His choice to afk from thread until after the vote tells me he's trying to buy enough time to survive today's lynch and make it to the next day, which is scum-motivated behavior. GK, your points against Obvious are exactly what? The only valid thing you said against me was that I disappeared from the thread for a while. You're so engrossed in your delusion that Ochrow was scum that you're transferring it to me and on the basis of what, exactly? I'd love to try to respond to those allegations but I'm not Ochrow so you present to me an impossible challenge bordering on telepathy. How can I know what Ochrow's long game was when I'm not allowed to contact him? There's no QT to refer to, I'm all by my lonesome here and I can sort of see why maybe his ban could have been on purpose since this game is full of delusional people. How about you all take a step back and reboot, have a reality check and maybe figure out why it is that the town is hell-bent on destroying itself and who the people behind it are.
HEHE this is the Obvious I remember <3. However like your predecessor you are defending thrawn and have barely mentioned Your Harry. This is incredibly suspicious as, if you had read the thread and peoples cases against them I don;t see how you could state that Thrawn is the closest thing to confirmed town. Or not mention YH at all.
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EPT
