EPTDon't you dare.
Movie Star Mini Mafia! - Page 32
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Don't you dare. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On June 26 2012 00:33 marvellosity wrote: :/ I've swung around again. I really think VE is scum, or actually quite possibly SK. I'm making my town tell on his emotion to a null tell. He proved in LI he can get all 'emotional' as scum. Firstly I just can't get over the way he pushed me. Ok, so we've established he thinks I'm totes amazing scummer. It makes absolutely no sense to me how he thinks someone as good at scumplay as I am would get myself into this situation. xscsc summarised it quite nicely: This is the crux of it, and xcksc hasn't even seen my scumplay, but he understands. Yet VE who saw me trash town in LIV and LV as scum does not see it. You can't just say "I wouldn't do that as scum" as some kind of evidence that you're not doing it this game as scum mar. I don't care how many other people interpret it the same as how you're selling it, a really good scummer can pull this shit off. As you're so keen on pointing out, yes I coached you in your first game here (or something..second, third, I thought it was your first). In that, what I told you was "Sometimes WIFOM can be your friend". ……….wait for it…. ……..THE SAME GOES FOR SCUM! CHRIST! You're acting as if scum always only make the optimal play ever. This is something that I can't even wrap my brain around, because of what you're accusing me of. But we'll get to that in a bit. The point is this: "Marvellosity's defense is that he would never act this scummy as scum. He feels as though because he's playing in a scummy way, that somehow excludes him entirely from being scum, period." The funniest part about this defense is that he has to admit to acting scummy in the first place. Marvellosity admits freely that his play so far has been scummy. This doesn't add up. Clearly sidestepping Matt's question WAS NOT the correct scumplay. Just look at what's happened. There's a mental disconnect going on. First paragraph is just trite, it says nothing. He's just explaining the wincon for a townie and scummer. I commented before on the 2nd part. Calling me out for finding him scummy, calling himself town. It's manipulative. When I accused him before, I wasn't calling him scum because I was town. I'd said I had the perspective of 100% knowing I was town that others did not. I simply did not say he was scum because he was accusing me. Twisted my words. This whole section is all about my read of him - and how it couldn't possibly be right. Nothing in here is indicative of me being scum except for possibly the bolded statement. But you'll notice if you read the quote I was referring to that I didn't twist his words at all…in fact, he's accused me of this before and I responded to it already. Take a look for yourself. + Show Spoiler + On June 23 2012 07:07 marvellosity wrote: I don't know how to push my VE read because a lot of it is based on the fact that I know my alignment 100% and no-one else does. Basically he picked up on something that shouldn't have been *that* important, and crusaded/tunneled on it ad infinitum. He hasn't paused to look for the alternative explanation, he's just blindly going down the same alley. I think a townplaying VE would be more actively considering the idea that I was town rather than pushing me like he is. Gonna get a bit egotistical for a minute - it feels like he's trying to get rid of me at an opportune moment on the back of something that he's exploded out of proportion. I got tunneled into oblivion by Blazinghand in LI and I get a totally different feeling about it now. There I had a clear townread on BH because of the nature of it. Every time I see VE post I see him try to twist my words a little. I said this about meapak in bang bang - it's either weak ass townie play or it's scummy play, and I think it's scummy play. On June 26 2012 00:33 marvellosity wrote: On the day 1 lynch: Realising he's not gonna get me through, he turns his attention to Zentor. Subsequently: This is where it all gets odd. He doesn't want to lynch Zentor, and lists 3 other people. Who doesn't he name? The other leading candidiate, rastaban. He is realistically the only alternative, but nothing. Compare - slOosh was trying really hard to get people to switch from Zentor to rastaban, but VE? nothing. Let's see if VE ever talks about rastaban: This is it. Nothing else. He never lets us know what he thinks of the alternative lynch candidate, despite promising to, and despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor. It's a half-assed, not-real attempt. Except VE never tries to make ANYTHING happen. He says this and disappears. I also feel like his pushing of prplhz is a sham. He came straight from LV where two townies pushed hard for a policy lynch on a player they disliked. He should know this isn't a scumtell. But it looks good to push someone on wanting a policy lynch like that, doesn't it? Conclusion: All his scumhunting is a sham. He knows and states I'm an excellent scum player, but somehow then thinks I would come into this game as scum and play scummily. He twists my words. He never talks about rastaban despite promising to, despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor and rastaban being the main alternative. In fact he never pushes any alternative. Pushes prplhz because it's an easy thing to do. I think VE is scum (or SK :D) The rest of this is him calling me scum for not trying to push an alternative lynch. Fucking sorry, I gave my preferences, and no one seemed interested. I even added to my few after prplhz came in with a decent point on Zeph and said I could lynch him too. I did everything I could to accomodate an alternative lynch aside from settling on someone I didn't read as scum...which was the entire point of switching off Zentor in the first place. So I left my vote. That's it. That's Marv's case against me. Yes, rastaban was the only other person who could have gotten lynched yesterday. The fact that I didn't vote for him when I said I didn't want to vote Zentor is NOT scummy because I had a town read on Rastaban. I don't care what Marv wants to sell you, the fact is that I didn't find rasta particularly scummy so I didn't want to vote for him. I was already voting for someone I didn't find particularly scummy, so there was literally no reason for me to change my vote. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
But marv....I'm acting like, SO SCUMMY right? By ignoring your case, and talking to you about it, and dismissing it entirely. Doesn't that indicate a complete lack of fear Marv? Doesn't that indicate a complete lack of concern about your little push on me that isn't going anywhere? Isn't my fearlessness a complete town-tell? Because what scum would bring that kind of attention on themselves, right? Right? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Did you leave anything else out that you wanted to share? Because it's hard to respond to a case that isn't complete. :/ | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Still no defence to the fact you outright lied that you would check out the rastaban cases and comment in the thread, and then did not. Anyway, not my turn now | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Anyway, like you, I'm done "shitting up the thread" as you call it. <3 | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
 Marv how is VEs response any different to your response to Mattchews question? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
So instead of reading and responding to my case, he just saw me and VE arguing, when I was trying to present a case. Clearly then he was successful in deflecting. And again now you're asking me about this, and you haven't actually commented on my case at all. Proof is in the pudding of how things are turning out. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On June 22 2012 07:16 marvellosity wrote: you may quiz me and i will answer your questions. On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. This is important: the way I see it, a townMarv would be very interested indeed in trying to establish his innocence. I can't think of a town motivation for him answering Matt's question by A) immediately buddying him and B) not answering the question. First of all, if he liked the question so much, why didn't he answer it? What about the question did he like? What aspect of the question WAS there to like? I'll tell you. Matty's question was good because it was a hard one for scum to fake an answer to. A scum player is forced to evaluate his own scum play and contrast it with his town play - which is exactly the LAST thing scum want to do. Why? Because they would rather town not know what the differences are! So the question remains: what town motivation is there for asking Matt's opinion first? Keep in mind, it was MARV'S IDEA to ask him questions and he promised he'd answer them. However, not only does he NOT answer Matt's question, he turns the question back on Matty and asks what the answer he would give was. So why? Why would he want Matt's evaluation of his scum play? And in what way is that going to help marv find scum? It's certainly not going to tell him anything about Mattchew: it was Mattchew's question, so whether he's able to answer it or not is completely irrelevant. The question was for Marv, and Marv was unable/unwilling to answer it. In spite of JUST saying that was what he wanted to do. Contradictory. Scummy. On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: here's a clue count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit Here is his "answer" to the question: a vague meta formula that equates to "if I'm doing scummy things, I'm town. If I appear town, I'm scum". .........really? REALLY? After all that, marv's answer ended up being "If you think I'm scum I'm not, if you don't I am". OKAY! GOT IT! HOW COULD WE HAVE BEEN SO STUPID TO THINK OTHERWISE?! This is literally the worst answer he could have given to Matt's question - and it's literally the reason I'm certain he's scum. It's contradictory and it's scummy. On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: here's a clue count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit On June 22 2012 09:46 marvellosity wrote: one was a defence, one was not. do you see yet? i didn't encourage people to leave the thread to read other games. i said i never said anything scummy in LV and I pointed out explicitly the scummy thing I was pressured for in magic. the whole original question was on meta, and now you're pushing me for defending on meta? really? What's funny about this is that he straight up LIES to the thread. He says he doesn't encourage anyone to leave the thread and read other games. Except, he does! Look at the bolded statements - does that seem like he's giving clear answers or does it seem like he's pointing you in the direction vaguely of the answer? To me, it reads like he wants you to go do the research yourself. But why? Why can't he just come out and say what he means, "I don't do scummy things when I'm scum, and I do when I'm town". Wouldn't that be a much easier and clearer way to get his point across then all of this nonsense? It's a simple idea that could have been conveyed simply...but he instead opts to shroud it in mystery and intrigue, it's not clear, it's fucking scummy as shit. His whole attitude at the beginning of the game reeked of scum trying to put an air of nonchalance into his post. I saw through that shit, so luckily we get to lynch scum today. I encourage everyone to go through Marv's posts and count how many times he has to say something along the lines of "Do you really think I'd be doing this if I were scum?" Go on, count. It's probably a dumb number that warrants an explanation. Vote Marv. He's obviously scum at this point. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
1) Matt asked a question. I liked it because I hadn't really thought about it before, and I was interested in what he thought. That is all. 2) I do tend to play more scummily as town than as scum. There is nothing contradictory here, it's simple fact. The only time I have ever been lynched in TL Mafia was when I played town (WoF). In my 2 games as scum, no-one has even been able to make a case against me. 3) I did not straight up lie to the thread. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but as I was directly addressing you VE, you should definitely have known: "check out how many times i said/did anything scummy in LV" - implication is that I did not. VE bolds the "see the pressure" part of my sentence on Magic, but actually I said "where I wanted to shoot NT right off the bat". I am clearly saying what I was referring to without you needing to look. There is no lie. Your lie, on the other hand, was about promising to comment on rastaban, and your explanation was "I commented by NOT commenting or voting". Right. If you promise to comment, then at least say "I had a look at the cases and I still think he is townie", but no. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 07:38 marvellosity wrote: No, because he shit up the thread and just look at prplhz's response - he said 'stop all this shit' or whatever. So instead of reading and responding to my case, he just saw me and VE arguing, when I was trying to present a case. Clearly then he was successful in deflecting. And again now you're asking me about this, and you haven't actually commented on my case at all. Proof is in the pudding of how things are turning out. I have just gotten into work, so give me a moment to actually read your case thoroughly and provide useful insight rather than just a fluff response  You deflected as well remember. The only difference is that VE and I kept at you to ensure you couldn't just drop it. VE has since responded so that point is now moot. All I am trying to point out is that hiding behind "A scum marvel is too smart to not take time to answer Mattchew" is exactly the same as saying "A scum VE is too smart to not take time to respond to Marvels' case". It is not a defense and my thoughts on you are not entirely based on your decision not to answer, it is the manner and subsequent indignation you displayed, that we were somehow being ridiculous is pressing you for your response. I'll give my thoughts on your case and then present my thoughts on you. I have 30 pages of relevant quotes to sift through so it may take some time. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 00:33 marvellosity wrote: [--snip] Ok, so we've established he thinks I'm totes amazing scummer. It makes absolutely no sense to me how he thinks someone as good at scumplay as I am would get myself into this situation. xscsc summarised it quite nicely: This is the crux of it, and xcksc hasn't even seen my scumplay, but he understands. Yet VE who saw me trash town in LIV and LV as scum does not see it. So a scum marv would put effort into answering the question whereas a town marv wouldn't because it draws attention. I have come to realise that your initial response is probably a null tell but it certainly isn't a town tell. Anyway, I will get to this when I present my case but this has no indication on VE's alignment. He simply disagrees. This doesn't add up. Clearly sidestepping Matt's question WAS NOT the correct scumplay. Just look at what's happened. There's a mental disconnect going on.  I thought this was your plan. Weren't you the one who deliberately wanted to look scummy so you could draw reactions from people? You are the one being contradictory, VE is paying you a compliment. The way I read it, he is saying that you could make this play as scum and possibly get away with it. You missed the day 1 lynch, so far he has been correct. You took a risk (I think an accidental one) and VE called you on it. First paragraph is just trite, it says nothing. He's just explaining the wincon for a townie and scummer. I commented before on the 2nd part. Calling me out for finding him scummy, calling himself town. It's manipulative. Yeah it is a shitty response but it is a typical VE response. How exactly is it manipulative? He is dismissing your case and claiming town, I doubt anyone is going to go "Oh look at that, VE is saying he is town, well I better not vote for him". You could call it spamming the thread to hide your case, but manipulative? When I accused him before, I wasn't calling him scum because I was town. I'd said I had the perspective of 100% knowing I was town that others did not. I simply did not say he was scum because he was accusing me. Twisted my words. Here is what you presented as your case when I asked for it yesterday On June 23 2012 07:07 marvellosity wrote: I don't know how to push my VE read because a lot of it is based on the fact that I know my alignment 100% and no-one else does. Basically he picked up on something that shouldn't have been *that* important, and crusaded/tunneled on it ad infinitum. He hasn't paused to look for the alternative explanation, he's just blindly going down the same alley. I think a townplaying VE would be more actively considering the idea that I was town rather than pushing me like he is. Gonna get a bit egotistical for a minute - it feels like he's trying to get rid of me at an opportune moment on the back of something that he's exploded out of proportion. I got tunneled into oblivion by Blazinghand in LI and I get a totally different feeling about it now. There I had a clear townread on BH because of the nature of it. Every time I see VE post I see him try to twist my words a little. I said this about meapak in bang bang - it's either weak ass townie play or it's scummy play, and I think it's scummy play. So yes, it was not an OMGUS. You were saying he decided to tunnel you for a small reason and this is scummy because you know you are town. OMGUS is not the right word but the intention is similar. Your case against him makes no sense if we don't know you're town. You even say that in your first line. The point of twisting your words would be to discredit your case and make you look scummy, correct? Well you discredited your own case with your own words and I found you scummy for my own reasons. Minor point against VE here. Maybe you can expand on how his twisting of your words was making you look more scummy than him straight up calling you scum. On the day 1 lynch: Realising he's not gonna get me through, he turns his attention to Zentor. Subsequently: This is where it all gets odd. He doesn't want to lynch Zentor, and lists 3 other people. Who doesn't he name? The other leading candidiate, rastaban. He is realistically the only alternative, but nothing. Compare - slOosh was trying really hard to get people to switch from Zentor to rastaban, but VE? nothing. This is a good point. One that could easily be made against me as well. Let's see if VE ever talks about rastaban: This is it. Nothing else. He never lets us know what he thinks of the alternative lynch candidate, despite promising to, and despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor. It's a half-assed, not-real attempt. True. So you are thinking of a rastaban + VE scum team then? Right, so we have a VE who promised to post about Rastaban and didn't. He offered to push a Zephirdd lynch but didn't. This is your strongest point I feel. I also feel like his pushing of prplhz is a sham. He came straight from LV where two townies pushed hard for a policy lynch on a player they disliked. He should know this isn't a scumtell. But it looks good to push someone on wanting a policy lynch like that, doesn't it? He pushed him early and then backed way off. I don't think he wants to lynch Prpl today. It looked like a pressure play to me to ensure that prpl contributes. He voted for prpl really early and never voted for him again. He mentions him as the last person on his list of possible lynches which I guess supports your point but it is weak at best. Conclusion: All his scumhunting is a sham. He knows and states I'm an excellent scum player, but somehow then thinks I would come into this game as scum and play scummily. He twists my words. He never talks about rastaban despite promising to, despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor and rastaban being the main alternative. In fact he never pushes any alternative. Pushes prplhz because it's an easy thing to do. I think VE is scum (or SK :D) Ultimately VE has tunnelled you hard this game so your case has to be presented in that light (as does his). I don't agree with your premise that you are too good at scum to make this play (it is possible it was a deliberate play that got out of hand. Hell you even suggested that.) Yes he twisted your words but you need to expand on the effect of this because he was outright calling you scum. I agree his evasiveness around Rastaban is bad but he has since explained he was posting from his phone. I know weekends get busy, mine did too and it forced me to not have the time to comment on everything. Given the rest of his play I am giving him the benefit of the doubt though I can understand if you don't. | ||
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