marvellosity
Marvel started this game in an open manner by offering to answer any question asked of him but he was suprised by Mattchew's question and responded rashly. This in itself is not a scum tell, an off balance townie could do the same. But his subsequent insistence on not responding is damning in my eyes.
+ Show Spoiler [Marvs initial reaction] +On June 22 2012 07:19 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:19 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 22 2012 07:16 marvellosity wrote:On June 22 2012 07:14 VisceraEyes wrote:
Let's try and figure out a way to figure out if we're town right here and right now...
:/
Because it's going to help me a lot if I can trust you. I now know you're a fucking beast as scum. What do you suggest? you may quiz me and i will answer your questions. TOWNGod, that was easy. Who's next? .........what kind of questions? Obviously that's what I meant marvel LOL well, that part of the figuring out bit I thought I'd leave to you. On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:22 Mattchew wrote:Hi All, I want MrZentor dead. On June 22 2012 07:16 marvellosity wrote:On June 22 2012 07:14 VisceraEyes wrote:
Let's try and figure out a way to figure out if we're town right here and right now...
:/
Because it's going to help me a lot if I can trust you. I now know you're a fucking beast as scum. What do you suggest? you may quiz me and i will answer your questions. Marv, if you were to pick out the differences in your scum play and your town play, what would you point to? I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote:
The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. On June 22 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote:
lol, ok dear. If people could look for themselves, then maybe just one person in the whole of LV and the obsQT might have had a tingling suspicion, no?
No.
On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote:
The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV
see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat
compare to current situationprofit
This is the key quote and one I keep coming back to. He has turned his initial confused response into a positive proof he is town. Why? This was very early day 1, VE had labelled him scum but VE always does this early and changes his position regularly. The simplest way to clear your name would be actually answer the question. Instead he uses the fact that he is acting scummy to try and clear his name, thus avoiding the work. Again, I can see a flustered scum here not sure how to respond so early in the game to this kind of pressure. So he decides to try and use that pressure to clear his name rather than doing the hard work and answer the question. It isn't easy playing a different meta than you are used to so if he could deflect the question he could continue to play his normal game. I am not marvellosity so I can't say whether he would respond the same way if he were scum or if he were scum, simply because I think he was caught off guard. All I can do is compare him to what I would expect a town or scum would do. I would expect a townie to say something like "Shit that's a hard question, give me some time to think about it" if he was thrown off balance.
+ Show Spoiler [My first response to Marv] +On June 22 2012 08:40 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 08:29 VisceraEyes wrote:
Votes = Tools. Not going over this again this game. Fair enough, I forgot who I was asking. You did back off Marv pretty quickly though. Why? I mean this is terrible and you pointed it out Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:30 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote:On June 22 2012 07:22 Mattchew wrote:
Marv, if you were to pick out the differences in your scum play and your town play, what would you point to? I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. SCUM Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote:
The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. He still hasn't responded adequately. He is around note Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 08:17 marvellosity wrote:
VE, prplhz last played with Zentor in WoF.
Enough said really. But is he isn't bothering to actually answer Mattchew's question. So yeah, why the let up? Marv, I want that alimony!
On June 22 2012 08:44 marvellosity wrote:
Probey, you'll have to get in touch with my lawyer.
And I have at least partly answered the question, you're just not on the ball enough to have worked it out yet.
By now he is adamant that he won't respond to the question. It has not become a case of being flustered but a concious decision. When I join in the questioning, he dismisses me. He fobs me off with a "go read the thread" response. This attitude of not wanting to contribute and making others do the work is scummy. It's sarcastic and designed to rile me up. He did a similar thing to VE. Why would you respond in this manner if you were town? The tone is designed to piss people off. Remember marvel has chosen to act this way. He believes that by playing a scummy game he can appear town. That is his whole exlpanation at this point, so if he is scum it makes sense to piss people off. He can create confusion and a massive shitfest which ruins day 1. He clearly doesn't think he will get lynched, he say so later.
VE, picks up on the tone issue in his next post.
+ Show Spoiler [VE] +On June 22 2012 08:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah let's lynch marv. Prob you down?
##Vote: marvellosity
Hubris does NOT become you sir.
and I point out the ridiculousness of not answering the question
+ Show Spoiler [Probulous] +On June 22 2012 08:54 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 08:44 marvellosity wrote:
Probey, you'll have to get in touch with my lawyer.
And I have at least partly answered the question, you're just not on the ball enough to have worked it out yet. Show nested quote +count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV
see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat
compare to current situation Why are you so cryptic? It's your job to prove you're town so you should want to provide information to us. ##Vote marvellosityThis time it's personal@Mattchew, you have nothing to say 
By now Marv's play is clear, refuse to answer clearly and then use his scummy play as an excuse. He has already gained two votes which would normally force a townie to actually contribute but he doesn't. Why? because this is his plan. He wants to look scummy and then go "hey look I always look scummy as town".
On June 22 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote:
it's not cryptic, it's blindingly fucking obvious. jesus christ
Why the indignation here? Why is he is pissed off at both VE and myself for not realising that he is town because he looks like scum. It is a ridiculous premise so of course we want further explanantion.
Then VE comes up with the defensive nature of marvel's posting which marvel used as his defense. the way I read this, VE is simply stating that Marv is using his defensive posting as an excuse for palying scummy.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote::OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:16 marvellosity wrote:On May 30 2012 06:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Marvel, the correct response is "my thoughts are X and Y and Z"...my question of you wasn't an accusation, so there's no need to get defensive. Saying things like "I already said" and "I made a comment" are very defensive when all I wanted was your input.
:/ Much like Magic you are reading my responses as defensive when they were not. I'm just baffled you are asking questions I have already stated clear opinions on or at least alluded to. This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? On June 22 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote:
I'm supposed to talk about someone else in my defence?
And in the nested quote it states quite clearly there weren't any accusations...
that's twice this game now you've misrepresented something, wilfully or not. i'm watching you
Whether there are accusations or not is irrelevant. The point is you were using your defensive behaviour as a way to prove you're town. We cannot know this is true, there is no way of verifying it. Just because you were defensive in your last townie game does not mean if you are defensive here you are townie. ESPECIALLY if you use that as your defense. Again, surely a townie would just answer the original question clearly and transparently at this point. I mean both VE and myself were "obviously mistaken", but you didn't bother to clear that up did you? No the confusion was good, it was serving its purpose.
+ Show Spoiler [back and forth] +On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote::OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! On May 30 2012 06:16 marvellosity wrote:On May 30 2012 06:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Marvel, the correct response is "my thoughts are X and Y and Z"...my question of you wasn't an accusation, so there's no need to get defensive. Saying things like "I already said" and "I made a comment" are very defensive when all I wanted was your input.
:/ Much like Magic you are reading my responses as defensive when they were not. I'm just baffled you are asking questions I have already stated clear opinions on or at least alluded to. This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote:
here's a clue
count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV
see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat
compare to current situation
profit Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 08:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
Probulous, what did you see when you went back and read Magic? When I went back, all I saw was a completely different opening strategy. I mean, he could just be doing a fast-expand or something, but it's looking kinda cheesy to me. :/ I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. On June 22 2012 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote:
Marv, I find myself to be terribly entertaining, so you're going to have to surround that statement with some sort of context if you want me to understand what you mean.
Now, my argument isn't about you defending yourself for the same reason. My argument is that you're defending yourself in the same fashion...using meta. You're encouraging everyone to leave the thread and go read other games. Why? On June 22 2012 09:46 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote:
Marv, I find myself to be terribly entertaining, so you're going to have to surround that statement with some sort of context if you want me to understand what you mean.
Now, my argument isn't about you defending yourself for the same reason. My argument is that you're defending yourself in the same fashion...using meta. You're encouraging everyone to leave the thread and go read other games. Why? one was a defence, one was not. do you see yet? i didn't encourage people to leave the thread to read other games. i said i never said anything scummy in LV and I pointed out explicitly the scummy thing I was pressured for in magic. the whole original question was on meta, and now you're pushing me for defending on meta? really?
I think VE got sidetracked here. Marv using meta is not a problem. As he states, the question was about meta. The point is that stating that "when you look scummy you are town" is not a useful use of meta. It doesn't answer the question and allows you to just refuse to answer. A useful meta point would be "when I am scum I tend to ..." not when I am scum I look like town. Anyway, I want you to note that he has now created a case against VE based on him being misrepresented twice. This will come up later.
This is a pretty good post from VE which is clearer than his previous ones.
On June 22 2012 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote:On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote::OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! On May 30 2012 06:16 marvellosity wrote:On May 30 2012 06:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Marvel, the correct response is "my thoughts are X and Y and Z"...my question of you wasn't an accusation, so there's no need to get defensive. Saying things like "I already said" and "I made a comment" are very defensive when all I wanted was your input.
:/ Much like Magic you are reading my responses as defensive when they were not. I'm just baffled you are asking questions I have already stated clear opinions on or at least alluded to. This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote:
here's a clue
count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV
see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat
compare to current situation
profit On June 22 2012 08:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
Probulous, what did you see when you went back and read Magic? When I went back, all I saw was a completely different opening strategy. I mean, he could just be doing a fast-expand or something, but it's looking kinda cheesy to me. :/ I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. I "pretend" that I went and didn't find anything? I went and looked and I said EXACTLY what I found. I don't care about you wanting to shoot NT, nothing similar has happened this game to compare it to. When I went back, I found what I was looking for - you acting like a townie. You haven't done that this game. When I went and looked at your scum game, I found something there too - you defending yourself needlessly with meta. You HAVE done that this game. These aren't misrepresentations, they're observations I'm making. If you don't like it, STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO GO READ YOUR PREVIOUS GAMES.
The point being, answer the original question clearly and transparently if you don't want people to misunderstand your reply. At this point it is clear that marv has achieved a few things. He has the thread focused on him, he looks scummy but is using this to try and prove he is town, he has created some suspicion on VE. So I call him out on it.
On June 22 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:I think he's pushing me dodgily. Haven't worked out if it's scummy or VE just being VE yet. Which is a nothing answer. I guess that is fair enough at this point. This next post is another key one.
On June 22 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote:On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote::OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! On May 30 2012 06:16 marvellosity wrote:On May 30 2012 06:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Marvel, the correct response is "my thoughts are X and Y and Z"...my question of you wasn't an accusation, so there's no need to get defensive. Saying things like "I already said" and "I made a comment" are very defensive when all I wanted was your input.
:/ Much like Magic you are reading my responses as defensive when they were not. I'm just baffled you are asking questions I have already stated clear opinions on or at least alluded to. This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote:
here's a clue
count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV
see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat
compare to current situation
profit On June 22 2012 08:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
Probulous, what did you see when you went back and read Magic? When I went back, all I saw was a completely different opening strategy. I mean, he could just be doing a fast-expand or something, but it's looking kinda cheesy to me. :/ I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. I "pretend" that I went and didn't find anything? I went and looked and I said EXACTLY what I found. I don't care about you wanting to shoot NT, nothing similar has happened this game to compare it to. When I went back, I found what I was looking for - you acting like a townie. You haven't done that this game. When I went and looked at your scum game, I found something there too - you defending yourself needlessly with meta . You HAVE done that this game. These aren't misrepresentations, they're observations I'm making. If you don't like it, STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO GO READ YOUR PREVIOUS GAMES. I've quite clearly stated I am not, stop it. The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum.
On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote:
Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin.
So now the plan becomes clear. He was caught off guard early and made a response he would not normally make as either town or scum, but here he is saying the he would avoid it like the plague is he were mafia. But apparently not as town? It makes less sense from a town perspective to not answer a straight up question than it does from a mafia point of view. Mafia get away with causing a shitstorm knowing they are unlikely to be lynched. Why? Because he can fall back on his meta showing that he is careful as mafia.
On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote:
Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin.
On June 22 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote:
See, the funny part is that you could ask yourself the same question. Why would you put yourself in this situation as town? It doesn't make any fucking sense.
On June 22 2012 09:56 marvellosity wrote:
a) because i'm unafraid
b) because i get information from who and how i'm pushed
Here we have the reveal that this was all a townie plan by Marvel to gain information on those pushing him. Really, well what has he gained so far? That VE may or may not be scum...That's it. In the process he has caused the whole thread to be entirely focused on him. Worse he doesn't regret it. He thinks it is a good idea. At this point we have had no other cases presented, no other scumhunting. Nothing. How is that a positive for town?
Anyway I outline my position here
+ Show Spoiler [probulous position] +On June 22 2012 09:58 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:On June 22 2012 09:46 Probulous wrote:
@Marv, do you think VE is scum? I think he's pushing me dodgily. Haven't worked out if it's scummy or VE just being VE yet. See here is what I don't understand. - Mattchew asks you a simple question about what is different between your scum and your town play.
- You say it's a good question (it is actually) and then you don't answer.
- You get pushed to answer and you refer briefly to differences between the openings of two games (one town, one mafia). But you don't explicitly state what the difference are, or how they help us determine your alignment. To me it seems like an attempt to brush off the question and move onto other "more important" things.
- Then when other people start pushing you, you get all snarky which just makes me go
- You tell VE to go read the games but when he comes back with his response you say he is misrepresenting you but you don't think he is scum.
Why haven't you answered the original question? You admitted it's a good question, you claim VE is misrepresenting you but isn't scum so surely the best way to clear your name would be to outline exactly what you intended when you briefly referenced those games. I mean you seem to be saying that VE is mistaken but don't bother to actually take the time to thorughly correct the mistake. Why? Because you don't want to answer the question. Townies want to provide data and clarity and you just wanted to move onto other things. Has Matt just left the thread then? >< On June 22 2012 10:17 Probulous wrote:1) You proactively ask people to question you so you can prove your alignment.Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:16 marvellosity wrote:
you may quiz me and i will answer your questions. 2) Then you dilberately obfuscate and avoid answering the questionShow nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote:On June 22 2012 07:22 Mattchew wrote:
Marv, if you were to pick out the differences in your scum play and your town play, what would you point to? I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote:
lol, ok dear. If people could look for themselves, then maybe just one person in the whole of LV and the obsQT might have had a tingling suspicion, no? No. 3)You explain that this was not a mistake but instead part of an elaborate plan to do something no scum would do and so therefore prove you are townShow nested quote +On June 22 2012 10:05 marvellosity wrote:
"The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum." If you are town, you are saying that you deliberately avoided answering Mattchew to cause a shitstorm to prove you're town? You don't say it was a mistake, or a joke but rather a calculated plan. You give yourself too little credit Marv. I think you're scum who tried to joke off a difficult question and didn't expect people to latch onto it. Now you are backpedalling as fast as you can.
To which I get this enlightening response
On June 22 2012 10:19 marvellosity wrote:
wrong way of looking at it Prob
if I were scum I'd have thought more before answering matt's question. even if this conversation has been quite interesting
WHY? Better yet why would you not do this as town. Especially after everyone starting piling onto you. Saying you are careful as scum is not a perfect defense that excuses you from participating. Note up till now he has provided nothing else. He hasn't pushed a case or done anything of value except defend himself with I am smart as scum so I wouldn't do that. I give you the perfect marvel plan. Play badly and then claim you have perfect scum play so you cannot be scum.
TLDR: marvel was caught off guard by Mattchew's question and chose to throw it back to the thread. This in itself could be a town response but when he told us that his scummy behaviour made him town, he hit on a plan to ensure he wasn't lynched. He knew his initial response was inadequate but chose to use his scummy response as a tool to cause confusion and shit up the thread. By never taking the multiples chances he had, to clarify his original position, he ensured that the mess continued for as long as possible. Whenever VE or I pushed him to contribute he could just reply with his meta defense that he cannot be scum because scum would never do this. If we believe that, then we would never lynch anyone. If he had just stated the truth, that he responded rashly and would take the time to provide a proper answer, I would have dropped this case. But his insistence that it takes up as much of Day 1 as possible makes me believe he is mafia.
##Vote marvellosity
|
EPT
