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Alright, I finally got caught up on all the action in the thread. It was difficult reading because the entire early discussion was a giant clusterfuck of semantics. Rather frustrating because I think the current cases against Vivax and BioSC are pretty good. I still need to reread the thread a few times, but here are the things that jumped out to me about their play:
First up is Vivax. Just take a look at some of these posts.
Esspen voted for hopeless when rofl was set to lynch, as already mentioned.
If one of them is scum, the other most likely is, too. With the current information available, I would go for one of them.
Also remember that posting cases during the night can make you a target for scum.
Speaking of it, I think I'm the designed nightkill simply cause noone suspected me yet. Townies who are believed to be townies are dangerous for scum, and I didn't see any blue role vibes for them to use yet, so they don't have many alternatives.
He first broaches the topic of lynching for information.
Regarding JingleHell vs Esspen: I think lynching Jinglehell would give us more information. Esspen might very well just be a sloppy player.
But I prefer a Keirathi lynch cause of the scummy behavior and the low attention on him right now.
He continues with the idea of lynching for information. Also he is for a lynch of Keirathi because Keirathi doesn't have a lot of attention on him right now.
JieXian, you posted this earlier. Don't you support the gain of information from a lynch of either Esspen or the roflewaffle55 replacement?
Right now two are pushing a case against me, one of them might be scum, and you prefer to suspect Bio.
While I don't trust Bio entirely cause of Release's connection to him and his following death, it would be nice if town could focus and handle single cases instead of making so many at once, and atm my case and the Esspen vs rofl one are unsolved and need feedback.
Lynching for information... again!!! Let me outline the motivations for town. Town wants to lynch scum. That's it. Scum want to entice town not to lynch them so they throw out tempting points such as to lynch "for information" or "to gain a clearer picture of the town." These are not town motives for a lynch. These are really scummy.
Further points against him:
- He's been extremely wishy-washy with his reads, especially in regards to Esspen. Notice how lately he's switched to full on attacking Esspen, when before he had posted this.
What's the matter? You wanna say that the lynch all lurkers policy is bad? If they're gonna be replaced/modkilled, then yes. But else, it's a policy that doesn't allow people to sit back, be it lazy townies or passive scum. I still am insecure regarding you and Esspen After all you just entered the game, so I went on with scumhunting, and Keirathi is on the list for scummy behavior right now. You aren't ony my list cause of OMGUS, i suspected roflwaffle55/you before you even posted against me.
It seems like he's just throwing suspicion out there when it's useful for him to deflect pressure.
- In the last game I played with Vivax (NMM XV, he was town) he posted his reads early and often. He had a confidence in his reads on players that almost bordered on foolishness. This game most of his reads have been extremely wishy-washy.
That's all the time I have right now. I'll post my opinions on BioSC when I get the time. For now I think the case on Vivax is a pretty slam-dunk case and I will support it. If things go my way I would like to lynch Vivax this day cycle, BioSC the next, and continue the hunt for the 3rd and final scummy player later. I'll be voting Vivax today.
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There is one thing I did that is pretty failsafe proof of my townie status. I'll post it in the second half of day 2.
If you think you are a good townie, then you should have found it already. At least now town will know that there is at least one scum jumping on the bandwagon against me, and scum might even have started it.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Less than 25 hours remain in the day one cycle. Make sure to post any votes in this thread. (link).
Votecount:
Vivax (4):
JieXian
JingleHell
Esspen
Miltonkram
Not voting:
Vivax
dNa
BassInSpace
Keirathi
NrGmonk
BioSC
Note: You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
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##Vote Esspen
first of all sorry for my inactivity in the past 24 hours, i meant to check in but i kinda forgot :/
after reading everything that has been said in my absence, i come to the conclusion that there's too much bandwagoning going on. This might not neccessarily be a bad thing though.
It might very well be, that all the people, who made a major case out of Vivax are scum. I'm pretty sure Esspen is scum, reason behind it being that he changed his mind about 5 minutes before the deadline to kill off hopeless instead of roflwaffles, whom i still consider to be scum as well.
JingleHell (roflwaffle's replacement) is the other one who is making alot of ruckus in Vivax's general direction. Overall this whole case against him seems like a VERY good distraction from this little head-over-heels misshap that could've been disasterous for scum if it wasn't swept under the rug by a lot of commotion.
The reason why i vote for Esspen and not for JingleHell is that, Esspen's posts overall are just confusing, not really helpful, and even if all my suspicions on them were wrong and they really would be townies, he seems the better guy to lose of them.
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Oops messed up one of the quotes in my last post.
This + Show Spoiler +Further points against him: - He's been extremely wishy-washy with his reads, especially in regards to Esspen. Notice how lately he's switched to full on attacking Esspen, when before he had posted this. What's the matter? You wanna say that the lynch all lurkers policy is bad? If they're gonna be replaced/modkilled, then yes. Show nested quote +But else, it's a policy that doesn't allow people to sit back, be it lazy townies or passive scum. I still am insecure regarding you and Esspen I still find these options to be risky overall After all you just entered the game, so I went on with scumhunting, and Keirathi is on the list for scummy behavior right now. You aren't ony my list cause of OMGUS, i suspected roflwaffle55/you before you even posted against me. It seems like he's just throwing suspicion out there when it's useful for him to deflect pressure. - In the last game I played with Vivax (NMM XV, he was town) he posted his reads early and often. He had a confidence in his reads on players that almost bordered on foolishness. This game most of his reads have been extremely wishy-washy. That's all the time I have right now. I'll post my opinions on BioSC when I get the time. For now I think the case on Vivax is a pretty slam-dunk case and I will support it. If things go my way I would like to lynch Vivax this day cycle, BioSC the next, and continue the hunt for the 3rd and final scummy player later. I'll be voting Vivax today. Further points against him: - He's been extremely wishy-washy with his reads, especially in regards to Esspen. Notice how lately he's switched to full on attacking Esspen, when before he had posted this. Show nested quote +What's the matter? You wanna say that the lynch all lurkers policy is bad? If they're gonna be replaced/modkilled, then yes. But else, it's a policy that doesn't allow people to sit back, be it lazy townies or passive scum. I still am insecure regarding you and Esspen I still find these options to be risky overall After all you just entered the game, so I went on with scumhunting, and Keirathi is on the list for scummy behavior right now. You aren't ony my list cause of OMGUS, i suspected roflwaffle55/you before you even posted against me. It seems like he's just throwing suspicion out there when it's useful for him to deflect pressure. - In the last game I played with Vivax (NMM XV, he was town) he posted his reads early and often. He had a confidence in his reads on players that almost bordered on foolishness. This game most of his reads have been extremely wishy-washy. That's all the time I have right now. I'll post my opinions on BioSC when I get the time. For now I think the case on Vivax is a pretty slam-dunk case and I will support it. If things go my way I would like to lynch Vivax this day cycle, BioSC the next, and continue the hunt for the 3rd and final scummy player later. I'll be voting Vivax today.
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Let's take a look at what dNa just said:
---snip
The reason why i vote for Esspen and not for JingleHell is that, Esspen's posts overall are just confusing, not really helpful, and even if all my suspicions on them were wrong and they really would be townies, he seems the better guy to lose of them.
Not good reasoning. We're here to lynch scum, not confusing/suboptimal players. dNa's reasoning reeks of scumminess. I think we just found our last scum guys. My plan is we lynch Vivax today, BioSC tomorrow, and dNa the next, though I really don't care about the order. Any takers?
Another scummy point for Vivax:
- He's been pretty content to sit back and just pressure lurkers. This is another deviation from his town play in NMM XV. I'd imagine a town Vivax would put a bit more effort into cases against active players. Pushing for a lurker lynch is a really non-confrontational move. Tralalala, obvious scum is obvious.
Since Esspen has come under heavy fire, here's a town point in his favor.
In case Vivax (i know i said i believe both BioSC and Vivax are scums, but more people seem to dislike Vivax) won't seem to get lynched this day I have two propositions:
1: you lynch me and if I turn out to be townie, you lynch Vivax
2: you lynch Vivax and if he turns out to be townie, you lynch me
He's either making a ballsy scum move, or this is extremely pro-town. Offering to take the lynch in order to confirm that your reads are made in good faith isn't a move most scum would think of IMO. If the assumptions I've made on our scumteam are wrong, then I'll rethink taking Esspen up on his offer. I've got to take a rather long trip, my case on BioSC will have to wait for a little while.
I'm feeling pretty good about this game 
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On June 29 2012 08:17 Vivax wrote:
There is one thing I did that is pretty failsafe proof of my townie status. I'll post it in the second half of day 2.
If you think you are a good townie, then you should have found it already. At least now town will know that there is at least one scum jumping on the bandwagon against me, and scum might even have started it.
You keep bringing up this whole notion that spotting your inconsistencies somehow makes people anti-town, and that your behavior is so textbook that anybody who's above suspicion should refuse to suspect you because of it.
This isn't a defense. This is an effort to encourage a fear reaction in anyone wanting to push a read on you.
Also, if you've done something too textbook to miss, I would also consider it to be too textbook to trust entirely.
On June 29 2012 09:13 dNa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +##Vote Esspen
first of all sorry for my inactivity in the past 24 hours, i meant to check in but i kinda forgot :/
after reading everything that has been said in my absence, i come to the conclusion that there's too much bandwagoning going on. This might not neccessarily be a bad thing though.
It might very well be, that all the people, who made a major case out of Vivax are scum. I'm pretty sure Esspen is scum, reason behind it being that he changed his mind about 5 minutes before the deadline to kill off hopeless instead of roflwaffles, whom i still consider to be scum as well. JingleHell (roflwaffle's replacement) is the other one who is making alot of ruckus in Vivax's general direction. Overall this whole case against him seems like a VERY good distraction from this little head-over-heels misshap that could've been disasterous for scum if it wasn't swept under the rug by a lot of commotion. The reason why i vote for Esspen and not for JingleHell is that, Esspen's posts overall are just confusing, not really helpful, and even if all my suspicions on them were wrong and they really would be townies, he seems the better guy to lose of them.
I can understand why you'd see it that way, dNa. Like I said earlier, I can't help much the bizarre things that happened before I came in, regarding Esspen's behavior. The best I could suggest is that he might be scum, (there's some reasonable cases, for sure), and seeing a mislynch was guaranteed with either winner, he did a miracle save to make my predecessor look like a false positive.
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Quick thought before I leave. Vivax said this.
There is one thing I did that is pretty failsafe proof of my townie status. I'll post it in the second half of day 2.
If you think you are a good townie, then you should have found it already. At least now town will know that there is at least one scum jumping on the bandwagon against me, and scum might even have started it.
There is no such thing as failsafe proof in Mafia. The fact that Vivax is waiting to post his proof is HUGE evidence against him. Town needs as much time to process information as possible because we're dealing with a lack of information. It's pretty clear that we're set on lynching Vivax today so any information he can give us would help and yet he waits. The fact that he's waiting to post (I'm guessing a breadcrumb/blue claim) is really unhelpful to town. I think he's waiting so that town doesn't have enough time to process his "huge reveal" and might knee-jerk a voteswitch off of him.
@ Jinglehell
What do you think of dNa's reasoning for his Esspen vote? Pretty scummy right?
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On June 29 2012 10:20 Miltonkram wrote:
@ Jinglehell
What do you think of dNa's reasoning for his Esspen vote? Pretty scummy right?
I have a few thoughts on this, but just in case you're right, I'd rather wait to post them until he's stated his reasoning for himself, to avoid muddying things up.
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On June 29 2012 08:17 Vivax wrote:
There is one thing I did that is pretty failsafe proof of my townie status. I'll post it in the second half of day 2.
If you think you are a good townie, then you should have found it already. At least now town will know that there is at least one scum jumping on the bandwagon against me, and scum might even have started it.
Honestly, if you think you have some mysterious, game changing info to prove your innocence/explain all this round-about play you've had, why wait to post? Post it now, please. Info is what we need, there has been too many lurkers to keep waiting on information.
Esspen - I'm not getting into an OMGUS with you. If you think I'm a scum for making a case on a townie, well, not much to say about that. I've already defended myself on that front.
On June 29 2012 01:50 Keirathi wrote:
Sorry for my inactivity. Random bad time with tons of extra work, and a friend came in from out of town for a few days. I'll try to catch up tonight and give some input.
Yup. Still waiting mate. Here's a little motivation to not lurk and participate.
## Vote Keirathi
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On June 29 2012 10:00 Miltonkram wrote:Let's take a look at what dNa just said: Show nested quote +---snip
The reason why i vote for Esspen and not for JingleHell is that, Esspen's posts overall are just confusing, not really helpful, and even if all my suspicions on them were wrong and they really would be townies, he seems the better guy to lose of them. Not good reasoning. We're here to lynch scum, not confusing/suboptimal players. dNa's reasoning reeks of scumminess. I think we just found our last scum guys. My plan is we lynch Vivax today, BioSC tomorrow, and dNa the next, though I really don't care about the order. Any takers? Another scummy point for Vivax: - He's been pretty content to sit back and just pressure lurkers. This is another deviation from his town play in NMM XV. I'd imagine a town Vivax would put a bit more effort into cases against active players. Pushing for a lurker lynch is a really non-confrontational move. Tralalala, obvious scum is obvious. Since Esspen has come under heavy fire, here's a town point in his favor. Show nested quote +In case Vivax (i know i said i believe both BioSC and Vivax are scums, but more people seem to dislike Vivax) won't seem to get lynched this day I have two propositions:
1: you lynch me and if I turn out to be townie, you lynch Vivax
2: you lynch Vivax and if he turns out to be townie, you lynch me He's either making a ballsy scum move, or this is extremely pro-town. Offering to take the lynch in order to confirm that your reads are made in good faith isn't a move most scum would think of IMO. If the assumptions I've made on our scumteam are wrong, then I'll rethink taking Esspen up on his offer. I've got to take a rather long trip, my case on BioSC will have to wait for a little while. I'm feeling pretty good about this game
I really enjoy where you put out all the reasoning behind my vote and just quoted the one thing that does not 100% point into esspen's direction, although part of it does. really great manipulation in this post, i'll give you that.
to your points against vivax i'm only seeing alot of "metagaming" on your end, no actual tells in this game.
in regards to your points about Esspen i agree, this is one thing not many scum players would have done... then again maybe he saw that after the history he has gotten in this channel, he has lost his value as a scum asset and therefore - after consolidating with his teammates, decided to make this move to:
1. appear not scummy for once
2. increase the amount of attention in regards to Vivax's case.
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So, following what dNa said, I think my original conclusion on his reasoning was correct. He did say after reading everything that has been said in my absence, i come to the conclusion that there's too much bandwagoning going on. This might not neccessarily be a bad thing though.
While I don't agree with all of his reasoning, it seems to me that this was intended to suggest that he was contributing his final thought process, after reading cases made against both myself and Esspen. Not that it was his sole reasoning.
Even with the weight of evidence stacking in certain places, the last thing we want is to tunnel so badly that scum could straight up roleclaim as scum and get away with it. I like his effort at objectivity, even if I don't agree with him on everything.
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On my phone right now, skimmed over stuff. Vivax still holding out on defense post? And I'm guessing your failproof defense is that you attempted to switch last minute to roflwaffle in the day one vote but it wad too late.
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On June 29 2012 11:57 BassInSpace wrote:
On my phone right now, skimmed over stuff. Vivax still holding out on defense post? And I'm guessing your failproof defense is that you attempted to switch last minute to roflwaffle in the day one vote but it wad too late.
I'd guess he's hoping that someone will come up with a good defense for him, since his efforts to misdirect reads and pressure people into changing their votes have all failed. It would sound better if someone else found his "failsafe" evidence.
I'd be willing to switch to another person with a fairly solid read against them if he could present his defense, but for now, delaying and scare tactics seem like an effort to just create enough confusion to get him benefit of the doubt, rather than a reason to target someone else.
I'm still keeping vigilant, though, as should we all.
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Well, gents, I'm off to bed, I think, let's keep up the good work.
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On June 29 2012 03:21 Esspen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 02:45 BioSC wrote:
Now that you are here, and have posted your reads, which of me or Vivax is the bigger scum read atm?
Both, I'm certain for you 98% and Vivax 102% (ok that means Vivax). And this defence of eachother just makes me think you are both scums. In case Vivax (i know i said i believe both BioSC and Vivax are scums, but more people seem to dislike Vivax) won't seem to get lynched this day I have two propositions: 1: you lynch me and if I turn out to be townie, you lynch Vivax 2: you lynch Vivax and if he turns out to be townie, you lynch me
WTF? You start the post attacking and linking Bio and Vivax together and end by putting the 2 people who are most likely to be lynched on the line? To gain what?
You don't make any sense Esspen....................................
For now you're next on my list after Vivax.
On June 29 2012 10:00 Miltonkram wrote:Let's take a look at what dNa just said: Show nested quote +---snip
The reason why i vote for Esspen and not for JingleHell is that, Esspen's posts overall are just confusing, not really helpful, and even if all my suspicions on them were wrong and they really would be townies, he seems the better guy to lose of them. Not good reasoning. We're here to lynch scum, not confusing/suboptimal players. dNa's reasoning reeks of scumminess. I think we just found our last scum guys. My plan is we lynch Vivax today, BioSC tomorrow, and dNa the next, though I really don't care about the order. Any takers?Another scummy point for Vivax: - He's been pretty content to sit back and just pressure lurkers. This is another deviation from his town play in NMM XV. I'd imagine a town Vivax would put a bit more effort into cases against active players. Pushing for a lurker lynch is a really non-confrontational move. Tralalala, obvious scum is obvious. Since Esspen has come under heavy fire, here's a town point in his favor. Show nested quote +In case Vivax (i know i said i believe both BioSC and Vivax are scums, but more people seem to dislike Vivax) won't seem to get lynched this day I have two propositions:
1: you lynch me and if I turn out to be townie, you lynch Vivax
2: you lynch Vivax and if he turns out to be townie, you lynch me He's either making a ballsy scum move, or this is extremely pro-town. Offering to take the lynch in order to confirm that your reads are made in good faith isn't a move most scum would think of IMO. If the assumptions I've made on our scumteam are wrong, then I'll rethink taking Esspen up on his offer. I've got to take a rather long trip, my case on BioSC will have to wait for a little while. I'm feeling pretty good about this game
I'm giving you the BOTD for now in abscence of much evidence but HOLY SHIT that really sounds like a scumslip: How the hell can you be so dead sure of yourself?
That defense of Esspen isn't a defense at all imo, everyone knows both of them are on the chopping block either way. However if Esspen is scum you won't be feeling good about yourself. So I'm not linking both of you together as scum. Rather I see it as a pretentious defense of Esspen for townie cred since he's probably going to die anyways and you would know that he's townie.
If both Vivax and Esspen flip townie I'm going to hunt for Milton. (Unless of course either Bio or Dna flip scum)
ok I'm quite worried about dying now so IF I GET SHOT TONIGHT FUCKIGN HUNT MILTON DOWN
If I'm wrong and I know it's a long shot with a lot of ifs, Milton sorry for being crazy. If either 3 of them from your list flip scum you're gonna get some townie cred from me.
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I've been withholding my defense for so long to force more posts from scum. You have to understand that scum doesn't like the prospect of sudden roleclaims or strong evidence against them. The reason I'm gonna post it late is that it won't allow scum to get themselves back into a safe spot once they realize that they made a mistake.
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I'm back now, gonna go over the last few pages in detail. Vivax, you realise this makes it very hard for JieXian and myself who are on the other side of the world right? I was looking forward to reading your defense and weighing it up against the case I and the others made against you. Instead, I now have to put in my vote in a few hours' time before I sleep without having read anything substantial from you. That aside, posting your case so late is going to confuse, and could potentially cause last minute vote switches when people can't even discuss your case. Should we just all post our reads and defenses at the last minute so mafia can't "get themselves back into a safe spot?"
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Also remember that there is scum pushing other cases than against me aswell. Only dumb or very ballsy scum would pull on one string at the same time with the whole team.
Miltonkram wrote
My plan is we lynch Vivax today, BioSC tomorrow, and dNa the next, though I really don't care about the order. Any takers?
I'll give you my taker, none of them are scum in my book.dNa not jumping on the bandwagon against me and focusing on the really suspicious guy with numerous slips made me sure of his townie status.
I had huge insecurity about BioSC regarding that matter, but I looked extensively at his filter and he didn't look scummy enough for me.
Mostly because of his agitation when random votes occurred. I doubt a real mafia would act like that if he saw townies throw around votes without real effect. Mafia would lean back, watch the lynch happen. Not start ranting about pointless votes.
Miltonkram. Question 1: Did you get booted from the obs qt for being a replacement? This is also a question to the host.
Saying my reads are wishy washy is super wrong. You can see the full reasoning behind the information lynch and what we gain from lynching either Jingle or Esspen.
The best part is that your case consists of saying that we should lynch based on scumreads, not for information or lurking. Since I want to lynch for information or lukring, I am the only scumread in the game by your logic.
The problem is that I never made my cases ignoring scumreads, there simply weren't any available besides from those concerning Esspen.
This seems to be what you are thinking: Esspen suggests lynching blues, Esspen changes vote last minute after announcing he wouldn't vote for that, Esspen doesn't contribute anything useful to town, and instead of getting more active after his slips, he gets even more silent than he was during day 1. Still, he can't be scum.
So do me a favor, Milton: Say it out loud that you ignore all these facts against Esspen, that I am scummy for suspecting him cause you claim that it's just for information and policy. And then say that killing him won't reveal us anything about Jingle's alignment, the guy covered last minute by Esspens vote.
I'm not just lynching for policy. I'm lynching for scumtells of a lurking guy that will give us information about another one upon his death.
Also, thank you for giving in to the pressure created by my delayed defense.
Upon my eventual death you might be the first to land on the chopping block.
By Milton
I think he's waiting so that town doesn't have enough time to process his "huge reveal" and might knee-jerk a voteswitch off of him.
I'm pretty sure you were also discussing this in the mafia qt haha.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 24 2012 04:55 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 21:55 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey kitaman, I wouldn't mind /replacing into this game.
NMM XVII should be finishing soon. If I were to become a replacement, would you have to boot me from the Obs QT? I'd be ok with that. If you sign up to be a replacement, you will not be given the Obs QT.
However, you will gain +3 awesomeness points. Totally worth it, imo.
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EPT
