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On July 10 2012 22:04 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 21:01 Fulla wrote:
Well Nova you got us all to pool you mana, let you summon a big beast. then go AFK. WTF? If you couldn't be available once during the entire 24 hours attack phase why ask for the mana?
You just seemed to sheepishly go 'oh woops nevermind'. I'm disappointed that you don't concede this as a mistake. This is what led to your downfall. From my perspective at the time it was a pure fluke that Zealos happened to be holding a deathbomb in his hands that almost near 1shot killed you. I finished the job
I accept that killing you was probably a mistake, but even with hindsight now, you're play made no sense to me as town. Case in point, did you actually read what I said?
Case in point, do you actually ever offer the courtesy to accepting you're error?
I will give you an answer. You screwed up, so you're read seemed screwed up just as bad.
To continue, I thought S&B+Matt as well, when Were manipulated me and bussed MATT and S&B was mafia attacked, this turned it on it's head. Looking at a passive, inactive Prom I started to see only red 
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Well, that's kind of the point of mafia isn't it? It is very often very easy to point out things that are very obviously scummy in town players. I think that's why Ver's guide for playing town starts with "establish your innocence". The better you establish your innocence and play in a pro-town way, the easier it is for other townies to see you as town and forge alliances to catch scum.
Scum can obviously play the same way, but at some point they have to push to kill townies and not their fellow scum members and will be forced to show their hand. The trick as scum is to avoid those situations, while the trick as town is to force them into it. A problem in general that the TL Mafia community at large has is that there are too few people who really really manage to look townie when they are town.
This game, from an observer point of view was a bit strange, because the entire first cycle town could not really do anything due to summoning sickness (and also having only 1/1 creatures). It took until the third cycle for the first person to be flipped, which is a really long time and the wifom might've started kicking in. On the other hand, it is also a really long time for players to establish their innocence. Nobody really did this and there were a LOT of random accusations flying around.
Possibly because there was not much threat, it was really easy for a player like Toad to establish himself as a pro-town player in the beginning, which really helped him avoid a lot of suspicion until it was pretty much too late to do anything about it.
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That's true but on the other hand, there's no majority vote, anyone is free to damage anyone every turn, which can make it pretty chaotic.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 10 2012 22:04 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 21:01 Fulla wrote:
Well Nova you got us all to pool you mana, let you summon a big beast. then go AFK. WTF? If you couldn't be available once during the entire 24 hours attack phase why ask for the mana?
You just seemed to sheepishly go 'oh woops nevermind'. I'm disappointed that you don't concede this as a mistake. This is what led to your downfall. From my perspective at the time it was a pure fluke that Zealos happened to be holding a deathbomb in his hands that almost near 1shot killed you. I finished the job
I accept that killing you was probably a mistake, but even with hindsight now, you're play made no sense to me as town. Case in point, did you actually read what I said? ![[image loading]](http://i47.tinypic.com/j8zbbr.jpg)
Fuck I pop up everywhere :<
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On July 10 2012 22:32 Fulla wrote:
That's true but on the other hand, there's no majority vote, anyone is free to damage anyone every turn, which can make it pretty chaotic.
Yeah. It felt a lot like multi-life BangBang mafia due to that situation. Everyone had a "gun" and everyone had multiple lifes (20HP) so that made for a different experience. As for the no-flip: People knew about it when they signed up that we won't get a flip early on. Actually we got a flip way earlier than we should have and that was pretty bad for my plan. I wasn't planning on seeing Grey dead so soon and would have loved to see him alive one more cycle.
If instead of the two 8/8 creatures we would have had 9x 2/2 creatures (or less depending on mana efficiency) that would have made for less damage because of people spreading up a little bit. So actually we got a really fast flip and that really hurt my plan of how to play thiss game.
I made the SSB-64 reference for a reason. I really felt like those 2 games played a little alike. Both multi-life and funny thing: both ended up having massive amounts of damage really early on if you ignore for the first cycle with summoning sickness.
That's why I made that first post of mine I also talked about in SSB-64 postgame: I really feel like going easy on something early on is the way to go in those set-ups. That changes the moment we had two 8/8 creatures because you can't split them up somehow but with a bunch of 2/2 creatures you could have checked things out before committing on something.
Gonzaw said it: The two 8/8 creatures could have ended up game winning but in the end not only did they produce a miss-lynch but also did they waste a COMPLETE round of mana. That round was at least worth 1.5 mislynches for town because both 8/8 creatures were useless after that one hit.
There's just no reason to committ on something so early in such a game, when the reads are the weakest. Especially if people get stronger throughout the game (just for this game) unless you're really 100% certain on something which you'll never end up being.
Poking around with 1/1 and 2/2 creatures would have not let to a complete mislynch (and spreaded up the mana without the potential to lose it all like with the two 8/8 creatures) and it would have given town more time to figure stuff out.
From that point on it depends entirely on town wether or not they are willing to use that time. That would have made it way more tricky for matt and myself because we would have had to talk way more and explain ourselves when we're both way too lazy to actually read the thread as mafia.
Edit: OH and btw thx for making me draw AEther spellbomb 3 times but not giving me a single lodestone myr 
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On July 10 2012 21:38 Fulla wrote:
Will there be another MTG mafia anytime soon?
Perhaps in a month or two. Definitely planning on hosting another one though. I'm also going to need people to be more active; the activity on the first two days or so was really dissappointing (other than that of Gonzaw)
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Next time I will be running arc bound affinity, and I will kill gonzaw immediately with it
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I'm going to play next time as well and I'll be mod confirmed townie due to statistics. Surely rolling scum twice in a row is impossible.
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On July 10 2012 23:02 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm going to play next time as well and I'll be mod confirmed townie due to statistics. Surely rolling scum twice in a row is impossible.
Tell that to marv
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On July 10 2012 23:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 21:38 Fulla wrote:
Will there be another MTG mafia anytime soon? Perhaps in a month or two. Definitely planning on hosting another one though. I'm also going to need people to be more active; the activity on the first two days or so was really dissappointing (other than that of Gonzaw)
Please send me a PM when you do. Hopefully I'll be able to play at least as a hydra. If not, I can provide a second set of eyes on deck balance.
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On July 10 2012 23:19 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 23:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On July 10 2012 21:38 Fulla wrote:
Will there be another MTG mafia anytime soon? Perhaps in a month or two. Definitely planning on hosting another one though. I'm also going to need people to be more active; the activity on the first two days or so was really dissappointing (other than that of Gonzaw) Please send me a PM when you do. Hopefully I'll be able to play at least as a hydra. If not, I can provide a second set of eyes on deck balance.
I will hydra with you
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On July 10 2012 23:19 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 23:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On July 10 2012 21:38 Fulla wrote:
Will there be another MTG mafia anytime soon? Perhaps in a month or two. Definitely planning on hosting another one though. I'm also going to need people to be more active; the activity on the first two days or so was really dissappointing (other than that of Gonzaw) Please send me a PM when you do. Hopefully I'll be able to play at least as a hydra. If not, I can provide a second set of eyes on deck balance.
I definitely will, don't worry about that.
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On July 10 2012 23:22 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 23:19 Qatol wrote:On July 10 2012 23:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On July 10 2012 21:38 Fulla wrote:
Will there be another MTG mafia anytime soon? Perhaps in a month or two. Definitely planning on hosting another one though. I'm also going to need people to be more active; the activity on the first two days or so was really dissappointing (other than that of Gonzaw) Please send me a PM when you do. Hopefully I'll be able to play at least as a hydra. If not, I can provide a second set of eyes on deck balance. I will hydra with you
nonono I want :3
inb4 massive amounts of people who desperatly want to hydra with Qatol.
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On July 10 2012 23:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 21:38 Fulla wrote:
Will there be another MTG mafia anytime soon? Perhaps in a month or two. Definitely planning on hosting another one though. I'm also going to need people to be more active; the activity on the first two days or so was really dissappointing (other than that of Gonzaw)
I apologize about seeming inactive, I was actually just quietly reading everything. I didn't really know what to say at such an early stage. Especially with Obe posting so much
Would anyone else be free to host one in between the next game, assuming Artanis doesn't mind?
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Wait one minute....I thought attacks couldn't be canceled....?
Like, once you called an attack, that was it and you couldn't change it. I think I asked Artanis that question but he never answered, so I assumed attacks couldn't be changed (kind of like in the real game, you can't suddenly change everything you've done and cast other stuff or attack other things or block other stuff)
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On July 10 2012 22:52 Toadesstern wrote:
Gonzaw said it: The two 8/8 creatures could have ended up game winning but in the end not only did they produce a miss-lynch but also did they waste a COMPLETE round of mana. That round was at least worth 1.5 mislynches for town because both 8/8 creatures were useless after that one hit.
Yeah that's true, but not the plan I had in mind.
I planned on dealing a huge 16 points of damage with both beasts on D3 while I was alive to get 1 "lynch"; and then let Nova use his 8/8 beast throughout the whole game, which would be like 2-3 more turns since he had 20 HP and couldn't get killed by the Mafia Beast in 1 round.
Had Nova seen the Attack Phase at all it wouldn't have been a complete waste...but alas it was >_>
I don't know about wasting mana though. I couldn't have used my mana at all that time, and the only player I remember needing the mana at that time was Fulla to cast his Electropotency.
Poking around with 1/1 and 2/2 creatures would have not let to a complete mislynch (and spreaded up the mana without the potential to lose it all like with the two 8/8 creatures) and it would have given town more time to figure stuff out.
You need to remember that the more "time" we need to figure stuff out, the more power the Mafia Beast has and the more damage he deals.
I wouldn't have just "let people take out a 1/1 creature" on D2-D3 knowing I would die next turn and the game would be a stalemate with nobody killing anybody at all and everybody dying to the Mafia Beast and shit.
Also.....I was really counting on Nova attacking Mattchew on D2, but he never showed up
Again my plan on D2 was: first to just kill Mattchew, and then to kill Greymist but deal damage to Mattchew.
Both could have been done since Nova was set on attacking Mattchew (I only would have needed to switch my attack from Grey to Matt).
But well...
EDIT: Well, at least initially when my reads didn't start to go all over the place >_>
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On July 11 2012 02:07 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:52 Toadesstern wrote:
Gonzaw said it: The two 8/8 creatures could have ended up game winning but in the end not only did they produce a miss-lynch but also did they waste a COMPLETE round of mana. That round was at least worth 1.5 mislynches for town because both 8/8 creatures were useless after that one hit. Yeah that's true, but not the plan I had in mind. I planned on dealing a huge 16 points of damage with both beasts on D3 while I was alive to get 1 "lynch"; and then let Nova use his 8/8 beast throughout the whole game, which would be like 2-3 more turns since he had 20 HP and couldn't get killed by the Mafia Beast in 1 round. Had Nova seen the Attack Phase at all it wouldn't have been a complete waste...but alas it was >_> I don't know about wasting mana though. I couldn't have used my mana at all that time, and the only player I remember needing the mana at that time was Fulla to cast his Electropotency. Show nested quote +Poking around with 1/1 and 2/2 creatures would have not let to a complete mislynch (and spreaded up the mana without the potential to lose it all like with the two 8/8 creatures) and it would have given town more time to figure stuff out. You need to remember that the more "time" we need to figure stuff out, the more power the Mafia Beast has and the more damage he deals. I wouldn't have just "let people take out a 1/1 creature" on D2-D3 knowing I would die next turn and the game would be a stalemate with nobody killing anybody at all and everybody dying to the Mafia Beast and shit. Also.....I was really counting on Nova attacking Mattchew on D2, but he never showed up Again my plan on D2 was: first to just kill Mattchew, and then to kill Greymist but deal damage to Mattchew. Both could have been done since Nova was set on attacking Mattchew (I only would have needed to switch my attack from Grey to Matt). But well... EDIT: Well, at least initially when my reads didn't start to go all over the place >_>
yeah I get that an it's all true but saying the mafia beast grows stronger every turn should not be a concern at all. After all Town grows stronger way faster.
If you have 3 mana in turn three everyone should be able to play something. Picture every townie playing a 1/1 creature, a 2/2 creature or a 3/3 creature (or doing an equal amount of damage via spells). Sure you can't assume that everyone will use his mana 100% mana efficient but let's say the average will be a 2/2 creature. Let's say only 50% of people actually have something to play on their hand: That's still 3.5 townies playing a total of a 7/7 creatures while the mafia beast only gets +2 every turn.
This gets worse every turn. Sure the same goes for mafia but the numbers are favoring town so I wouldn't put mafia grows stronger every turn for an argument at all, as town gets equally or even more stronger every turn.
Of course you can't just relax and do nothing all the time but a first (and only a single) round of everyone doing what THEY consider to be best and poking with their creatures would have given some information imo.
Like who's trying to not attack to defend against attack?
Who's attacking whom?
Do people have reasoning for attacking someone in the first place?
Do you agree with some people?
Who is someone willing to attack other than the guy he ended up attacking?
That's all questions you would have ended up getting answered and it could have been used incredible good to figure us out. That's why I said I don't want people to focus early on (like the first 2 cycles?) because I considered that to be anti-town because it's robbing town of all those answers and I wanted to look pro-town.
But than again Artanis was right. Activity was non-existent early on. Gonzaw and I were the only guys really talking early on so no idea if people really would have got information at all with all the guys not talking at all.
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On July 11 2012 03:27 Toadesstern wrote:
yeah I get that an it's all true but saying the mafia beast grows stronger every turn should not be a concern at all. After all Town grows stronger way faster.
If you have 3 mana in turn three everyone should be able to play something. Picture every townie playing a 1/1 creature, a 2/2 creature or a 2/2 creature (or doing an equal amount of damage via spells). Sure you can't assume that everyone will use his mana 100% mana efficient but let's say the average will be a 2/2 creature. Let's say only 50% of people actually have something to play on their hand: That's still 3.5 townies playing a total of a 6/6 creature while the mafia beast only gets +2 every turn.
This gets worse every turn. Sure the same goes for mafia but the numbers are favoring town so I wouldn't put mafia grows stronger every turn for an argument at all, as town gets equally or even more stronger every turn.
The Mafia Beast doesn't generally attack mafia themselves does it?
More damage spread out with more townies also means that damage will most likely go on other townies as well.
I prefer having 2 townies (me+Nova) choose who to kill and discussing it thoroughly, like a "2 mayor election" from a normal game, than having everybody (not just town, remember scum can also put out 2/2 creatures and shit...which they did) gain 1/1 and 2/2 creatures evenly which would not make town "overpowered" like you say but can potentially be more of a disaster late-game where everybody attacks everybody and all townies get low HP (mind you players already had creatures out by this point, I'm talking about them having MORE creatures up).
That because I know I was town and figured out Nova was town, and because I trust my judgement and I trusted Nova's, or at least I trusted we could talk about it before doing something stupid (Zealos I'm looking at you  ), and I wouldn't trust everybody to do whatever they wanted, which was pretty chaotic at the time; with S&B wanting to kill Zealos, Zealos wanting to kill Greymist/S&B, Greymist wanting to kill S&B, Mattchew wanting to kill Fulla, Fulla wanting to kill Greymist, Prome wanting to kill Greymist and someone else, etc (it would be a clusterfuck of everybody except me+WBG+Prome getting their HP reduced heavily).
Of course you can't just relax and do nothing all the time but a first (and only a single) round of everyone doing what THEY consider to be best and poking with their creatures would have given some information imo.
Like who's trying to not attack to defend against attack?
Who's attacking whom?
Do people have reasoning for attacking someone in the first place?
Do you agree with some people?
Who is someone willing to attack other than the guy he ended up attacking?
1)That's what happened on D2, people attacked whoever they wanted. Most people attacked Greymist, and Grey attacked Zealos, if I remember it correctly.
In D3 that should have happened as well....but everybody was AFK and didn't send their attacks. Only me+WBG+Prome sent our attacks I think and we all justified them against Greymist.
I don't get how having the 2 8/8 beasts would have hindered the "attack analysis"....it only meant me+Nova had 2 more beasts that's it.
Also, you can't analyze people's intentions to attack if they don't even attack >_>
That's all questions you would have ended up getting answered and it could have been used incredible good to figure us out. That's why I said I don't want people to focus early on (like the first 2 cycles?) because I considered that to be anti-town because it's robbing town of all those answers and I wanted to look pro-town.
As you say "poking" people with attacks gives you great info....but how good would it do really? If everybody "pokes" around then people would get their HP reduced evenly more or less.....and like I said the Mafia Beast gets stronger killing more townies each time while scum get their HP reduced evenly with the rest of town, meaning we'd have 3 town flips before a scum even gets near 0 HP.
It's like you said, if Grey was kept alive you could have continued your tunneling of his throughout the whole game until end-game, while you guys killed more people with the Mafia Beast. That's what would have happened if we didn't get the 8/8 beasts and everybody got a bunch of 1/1 creatures instead.
Also, again, "poking" doesn't really give you much info if you don't have any flip at all. If I see player X attacking player Y I can only speculate if I don't know Y's alignment.
If everybody "poked" with 1/1 creatures nobody would have died for like 4 days and thus things would have been even more difficult (like they were on D3, at least for me), and there would have been more chaos and shit, and most likely more town misslynches later anyways (since scum will still try to manipulate people)
But than again Artanis was right. Activity was non-existent early on. Gonzaw and I were the only guys really talking early on so no idea if people really would have got information at all with all the guys not talking at all.
D1 and D3 were pretty bad in terms of activity...D3 even more I think.
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On July 10 2012 22:26 Fulla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:04 Nova_Terra wrote:On July 10 2012 21:01 Fulla wrote:
Well Nova you got us all to pool you mana, let you summon a big beast. then go AFK. WTF? If you couldn't be available once during the entire 24 hours attack phase why ask for the mana?
You just seemed to sheepishly go 'oh woops nevermind'. I'm disappointed that you don't concede this as a mistake. This is what led to your downfall. From my perspective at the time it was a pure fluke that Zealos happened to be holding a deathbomb in his hands that almost near 1shot killed you. I finished the job
I accept that killing you was probably a mistake, but even with hindsight now, you're play made no sense to me as town. Case in point, did you actually read what I said? Case in point, do you actually ever offer the courtesy to accepting you're error? I will give you an answer. You screwed up, so you're read seemed screwed up just as bad. To continue, I thought S&B+Matt as well, when Were manipulated me and bussed MATT and S&B was mafia attacked, this turned it on it's head. Looking at a passive, inactive Prom I started to see only red
Umm yes
On July 04 2012 05:34 Nova_Terra wrote:
Omfg I'm so sorry, my Internet went completely down earlier today and by the time I got to the nearest Internet cafe they were closed T_T then we got out the new router we had brought and we just fixed it now
We should follow greymists reads and go over his filter
So no, it appears you don't read. Or at least subpar reading comprehension skills. Now I see why this game was lost
Apologies Fulla, I am not suggesting that you lost us the game, I am suggesting that nobody actually got their heads out of their own asses and looked in to other people in the game until everyone realize we needed a plan where all of a sudden Toad came in and nobody cared whether or not his reasoning made sense, a leader was needed
Hell we wasted half of the game talking about mechanics
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On July 10 2012 22:36 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:04 Nova_Terra wrote:On July 10 2012 21:01 Fulla wrote:
Well Nova you got us all to pool you mana, let you summon a big beast. then go AFK. WTF? If you couldn't be available once during the entire 24 hours attack phase why ask for the mana?
You just seemed to sheepishly go 'oh woops nevermind'. I'm disappointed that you don't concede this as a mistake. This is what led to your downfall. From my perspective at the time it was a pure fluke that Zealos happened to be holding a deathbomb in his hands that almost near 1shot killed you. I finished the job
I accept that killing you was probably a mistake, but even with hindsight now, you're play made no sense to me as town. Case in point, did you actually read what I said? Fuck I pop up everywhere :<
Lol sry forgot to color over your name in my rage
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EPT![[image loading]](http://tinypic.com/r/j8zbbr/6)
