*marvellosity is helping me co-host this game. Any questions can be directed towards him or myself.
The coaches for this game are: Probulous(mafia) and wherebugsgo+Toadesstern(town). I urge you to consult them if you are in need of any advice regarding how to play the game.
Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. I will not compensate for ignorance.
Rules:
Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. 2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town. 3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. 4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles. 5. Posting screenshots of your inbox. 6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. 7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip. 8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. 9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. 10. Sharing accounts with other players unless cleared by the host in advance. Otherwise, only you may post on your account. 11. Breadcrumbing the specific phrasing of your role PM. Do not compare the phrasing in your role PM to prove your alignment. You can claim the abilities you have, but you can't use the specific phrasing of your role PM. 12. Posting a false role PM phrased as if you received it from the host. You can still fake roleclaim, but you cannot make it look like you are posting a PM you received from the host. Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting:
Mod Font: This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font: This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity: You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
Smurfs:
On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote: Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts.
Spam: Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here.
Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything.
Inappropriate posts: If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or modkill you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host, Flamewheel, or Mig before involving the TL staff. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Reporting posts: The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions: Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Out of thread communication:
It is common for mafia (and town circles if PMs are allowed) to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Please be mindful that other players may be more tech savvy than you and they may attempt impersonate members of your team or attempt to infiltrate your chat. You use these media at your own risk.
Voting rules:
1. Voting is done in this game thread. Please keep votes here, and only vote here. Do not PM me your vote. 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote: Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts whenever I get the chance. 3. No conditional voting. 4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game. 5. In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses). 6. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain. 7. This game follows Extended Majority Lynch. In order for a player to be lynched, they must reach majority before the deadline, or else a no lynch will take place. Majority is # of Players Alive/2, rounded up.
Signups:
This game is open to NEW PLAYERS . This means 3 or fewer games played of TL mafia. Signups will remain open until the 9 spots have been filled. Type /in within the thread if you wish to sign-up.
Game-specific rules:
Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List.
Replacements This game uses replacements. Replacements will be made in the game until Night 2. If a player is modkilled during the designated time, then they will be replaced by a player on the replacement list.
Clues: There are no clues.
PMs PMs are not allowed in this game.
Time Cycle: This game will follow a 48 hour day/24 hour night cycle. In case I am not able to post around deadline, any votes after the 48 hour mark will not count and the game will be put on halt until the night post is up. Currently the deadline is 23:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change. Actions/votes will be accepted up to and including the posted time, but not after. Credits: Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer. Thanks to everyone who helped balance this game. Thanks to Mr. Wiggles, who hosted my first game here.
If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance!
You will not know which setup is chosen, but it is guaranteed to be one of the above.
Roles:
Townie You are just a normal player with no night actions. All you can do is vote during the day. But the town needs you to win so be active!
Detective You can make night investigations. Once per night you may ask for the alignment of any player. Alignments are either Town or Mafia. You are always sane. Alignment checks come back with the next day post.
Medic You have the power to save lives. Once per night you can watch a player. If your target is attacked, you will block one hit aimed at them. If you make a successful save, both you and your target will be notified of the save. You cannot save yourself.
Mafia Your goal is to eliminate everyone else in the town. Your ability, as a group, is killing off whomever you decide on at night and knowing the role of each other player in your mafia. You may kill your own members. Mafia killing power is always 1 until there are no mafia remaining.
Roleblocker You are a mafia member who has the ability to prevent a player from performing a night action. Once per night, you may roleblock a player, and your target will be unable to perform night actions for that night. Your target will be informed that they have been roleblocked (even if they didn't have a night action). You do not have to use your action every night.
For the Mafia Night Kill and any Power Role actions, please PM both myself and marvellosity your decision each night.
1.) It's already in the rules, but remember, no editing. If you feel you must correct your post, please make a second post to clarify your statements. You may put EBWOP ("Edit by way of post," a handy acronym invented by semioldguy) at the beginning of your post to indicate that you are clearing up a point you made. If your EBWOP post is several posts after your original, please quote your original post in your EBWOP post for the sake of clarity.
2.) Only sign up if you know you will have the time available to properly play the game. It is essential that players remain active in a newbie game, so only /in if you are able to play to your fullest.
3.) If there is any sort of issue, you are unsure about some mechanic, or you are just wondering if your devilish scheme is even allowed, feel free to PM me, or ask in-thread with green text. Don't feel shy; these games are meant to be a place to learn and be open.
4.) Behave as gentlemen (or ladies). Things get heated here, but personal attacks will not be acceptable, and will be dealt with accordingly. Remember, this is a game; have fun and happy scumhunting!
Could we wait for at least 1 or 2 replacements before starting this game? In alot of the newbie games people dropping out for no reason seem to somewhat ruin the game because replacements arent found/aren't found fast enough.
third and last newb game. I'd prefer a deadline time in the 18:00-20:00 EST range.
Just to let you know, i believe you have 4 newbie games (game is open to those with 3 or less games already played in)
I've played in Newb Minis XIV and XV, nothing else. That said, I'd bow out in favor of someone who hasn't played before if it gets to that.
if that's right you can actually play 2 more newbie games if I am correct. It is games played, as in already finished. So if you played in Newbie I, Newbie II and Newbie III and want to sign up for Newbie IV that would be fine because 1-3 are 3 games played in total and it's 3 or less games played to sign up for another one :p The names of the games are obviously totally made of for keeping things clear.
Zen, Lazer, Solstice, and Echelon hosting... Why do you all have to be so evil in tempting me? Get thee behind me, I must focus on summer school. I will not /in. I will not /in. It's physically hurting me not to hit enter twice and write /in, but Calc 2... You're all evil
/in as not-first replacement (I'll replace as long as the first replacement is already in)
On June 07 2012 02:56 prplhz wrote: GMarhsal has the best setups.
gl to all the people playing
To be fair, this setup isn't mine, its slice of pie from mafiascum, and I in turn borrowed it from one of the older minis here (I forget the exact number)
On June 07 2012 02:56 prplhz wrote: GMarhsal has the best setups.
gl to all the people playing
To be fair, this setup isn't mine, its slice of pie from mafiascum, and I in turn borrowed it from one of the older minis here (I forget the exact number)
Carry on!
you're 12 player f11 is way better though. That's why I hosted that one!
To me this seems a little odd. I assume they are both in there because they are supposedly equally balanced but how can you have the same number of mafia in both but one has two blues whilst the other has none. Surely the setup with the blues is either overpowered or the one without is under-powered?
Maybe I am having a logic fail but it just looks weird to me.
To me this seems a little odd. I assume they are both in there because they are supposedly equally balanced but how can you have the same number of mafia in both but one has two blues whilst the other has none. Surely the setup with the blues is either overpowered or the one without is under-powered?
Maybe I am having a logic fail but it just looks weird to me.
Town is weaker in the one with no blues, but scum have to account for the possibility of there being two blues for the entire game, which sort of makes up for it. Town is a little weak in that setup, but its not a crippling "weaker" thanks to the variable setups its still ok.
Basically, its due to the fact that there isn't so much an exact point of balance in the game as a "sweetspot" where the game is balanced, and any of the setups that comes up (thanks to the semi-open nature of the game) is going to be balanced, even though some setups slightly favor one team.
If only one of the setups was there then mafia would know which power roles to expect. You're right in that between the two town is more powerful in one over the other but mafia don't know which one is the one they're playing if the two exist like that.
That issue is why I prefer the C9++-esque randomization of a setup, since in theory all the setups are equally balanced and almost anything (by way of power roles) is possible.
Also ET I'm willing to coach for either side. that was my /in
Why is there a setup with a roleblocker when the townie setup doesn't even have a blue, might aswell replace the roleblocker in that setup with a standard goon.
Read above: if there's 2 goons then mafia know there's no blues. In the current setup the mafia don't know if there are or aren't blues. Simple knowledge affects balance.
Well, there are the other two setups where there are two goons, so they wouldn't automatically know that. However, if only 1 setup had a roleblocker, than Mafia would know that there are 2 blues against them.
The point stands though, that as an information game, having the RBer there makes the mafia team have to consider the possibility of two blues against them. Thus they have to consider who to RB, if they should RB and shoot, etc. But if they end up RBing someone who looks quite townie, and that townie claims the RB, then they might gain more cred. Additionally, if the mafia team realizes there is no blue, they can fake claim the RB N2 or N3, lending some cred.
Short answer: it introduces more possibilities, and forces the scum team to think more.
The questions are good; it's important to consider these things ahead of time. ^^ I am considering the setup's balance, so I may change the setup pending discussion.
On June 07 2012 02:56 prplhz wrote: GMarhsal has the best setups.
gl to all the people playing
To be fair, this setup isn't mine, its slice of pie from mafiascum, and I in turn borrowed it from one of the older minis here (I forget the exact number)
Carry on!
Oh I know I just wanted to make fun of how EchelonTee misspelled your handle
On June 07 2012 02:56 prplhz wrote: GMarhsal has the best setups.
gl to all the people playing
To be fair, this setup isn't mine, its slice of pie from mafiascum, and I in turn borrowed it from one of the older minis here (I forget the exact number)
Carry on!
Oh I know I just wanted to make fun of how EchelonTee misspelled your handle
WOW I didn't notice until now T_T Please point out other typos I made or are soon to make.
Probulous will be the scum coach, while wherebugsgo will be the town coach. Please consult them if you need help or some direction during the game, as they are both quite skilled. There are links to PM them, embedded in their names in the OP.
This game will be Prince of Persia themed, because PoP is the best.
Currently 1 slot remaining! I may consider expanding the game to 10 players, depending on interest. The deadline is going to be set at 23:00 GMT (+00:00). Please let me know if this time will be an issue for you.
I hear the really cool kids sign up as replacements. You should try it out. Just once. How much could it hurt? Everyone else is doing it. Come on, just one time. Are you scared? + Show Spoiler +
On June 08 2012 03:56 0ptions wrote: some of them want to use you, some of them want to be abused oooOOOhhHHHHHaaaaHHAAAAaaA but marvellosity doesn't want to use me
well, maybe not in a mafia game, darling
On June 08 2012 03:56 suki wrote: ugh vandrift beat me to the punch. =| maybe its for the better. This game makes me go crazy
On June 08 2012 03:59 Release wrote: maybe we should expand this game? Tons of replacements
I'd prefer not to be in on this. I have summer school and I'm working 25ish hours a week, so I don't have much time. I could be somewhat active, but not nearly to an extent that I'd prefer. Plus I like not having 3 very stressful activities, two of which would require 100% of my cognitive abilities, the other requiring that I don't accidentally lobotomize myself (making fastfood isn't exactly the work of geniuses). If there is a zombie apocalypse though, I'd be more than willing to sub in if 3 of the players were already gone. Basically, right now for me: School && Work > Mafia > Survival in a zombie apocalypse
I'm going to accept shiaopi's /in, as Toad gave approval in time, so sign-ups are now closed. Sorry to those who missed it; there will definitely be more games in the future available, likely with more slots available.
Setup and number of players will remain the same. I am preferential to a smaller setup as I believe it allows for more thorough feedback, and I quite liked what I saw in Newbie XIV.
Toad will be a second Town coach. You guys will have so much help it'll hurt. Literally.
On June 08 2012 04:17 Mordanis wrote: If there is a zombie apocalypse though, I'd be more than willing to sub in if 3 of the players were already gone.
Wouldn't that be the sickest fuck you towards god, playing out the mafia game rather than devoting your attention to staying alive. I like this guy..
I just wanted to firmly suggest to you guys to use your coaches. We can't answer everything and we can't play the game for you. We can provide guidance and critique of your play. If you want to play well, we can help. So don't be shy, give us a PM and we will do our best.
All role PMs should be sent. Notify me if you haven't received one of if there is some issue.
A few reminders:
You must vote every Day Cycle in this thread, using the format of ##Vote: marvellosity. Any other formatting will not be counted. If you wish to change your vote, you must vote type ##Unvote.
Please remain active, or if you become unable to play notify me as soon as possible. There are plenty of replacements, so don't feel bad if you find yourself completely busy or simply hating the game. Just let me know ASAP.
The setup is randomized, but it is guaranteed to have only those roles. However, you may not use Role PM text to confirm or condemn someone's alignment (aka copy pasting your role text to see if you have the same as other people). Also, remember no editing. I will be slightly lenient, but be careful.
The armies of Liquidia came home to jubilant crowds, and a massive parade in their honor. After all, they had just crushed the far off kingdom of GosuGamer Land, bringing home richs, slaves, and some curious artifacts. At the head of the victorious army was GMarshal, Sultan of Liquidia. His trusted legions had swept through the enemy with precision and ease, due to the help of a handy informant from the inside. Nothing could make him happier at that point, though perhaps his blasted son being present would be nice.
However, In a hidden chamber tucked deep within the palace, machinations were at work. "All you must do is place your dagger into this hourglass, and the entire room will be filled with gold! Your wildest dreams will all be achieved!" whispered EchelonTee, Vizier to the Throne. "I don't know..." pondered marvellosity, Captain of the Guard, "I was trusted with this dagger as a temporary keepsake. I didn't intend to do anything with it". "Fool!" exclaimed EchelonTee. " Don't you think you deserve something for all of your hard work? All those years of toil for a thankless Sultan?" Ordinarily, marvellosity would flinch at such insults to his Sultan, but his mind was troubled with news from that his beloved wife, VisceraEyes, had become stricken with sickness. He knew that he had no time to be able to procure the funds needed for both the long journey home and the medicine needed to cure his loved one. Solemnly, marvellosity stated "I will take my cut and you will return a due amount to our Sultan." Stepping forward, marvellosity examined the ornate dagger in his hand, then in a swift motion thrust it into the hourglass's keyhole.
A deep rumbling began to emanate from the hourglass, then a spectacular explosion of light burst forth! Sand billowed out of the towering device and bursted out of the chamber's windows. Shocked, marvellosity ran to the nearest window and witnessed the plague he had unleashed. The gliterring sand swept through the streets of Liqudia and, to his sheer horror, consumed the entire populace. Their horrible screams were soon replaced with hollow moans as they transformed into monstrous beasts! Cackling with glee, EchelonTee exclaimed "You have ruined your own city! Soon, through the power of the Sands of Time, I will be immortal! Hand me that dagger and I will make your death swift." Siezed with bitter regret, disgust, but most of all indignant anger, marvellosity wordlessly tossed the Dagger of Time out of the window.
"No! You fool, that is the key to my ultimate victory! Now I will have to comb the city for that blasted dagger!" shouted EchelonTee, seething with fury. Marvellosity reached for his sword and responded "Die, scum." Bellowing a carnal battle cry, he charged forth for his final battle.
The few survivors of the catastrophe collected themselves and made their way to the chamber holding the hourglasss. Inside, they found the charred remains of marvellosity, a proud warrior until the end. Spying the corpse of the Vizier nearby, one of the survivors approached his body intending to spit on it. Turning over the corpse, EchelonTee's body suddenly disappeared into thin air! "What trickery is this!" exclaimed the guard. "The vizier's magic is powerful; he has created this form as a double." Baffled by the terrible events occuring, the ragtag group of survivors murmured amongst themselves:
"How did this happen?" "What did we do to deserve this?" "What if the Vizier is disguised amongst us?" "What will we do with our Sultan dead?" "Is it even possible for us to retake our empire?"
With the heavy knowledge that the Vizier, or other lurking threats could be hidden in their ranks, the group set forth into the city intent to defeat the enemies lurking both outside, and within.
GMarshal, Sultan of Liquidia has been turned into a terrible monster! marvellosity, Captain of the Guard died a noble death! EchelonTee, Body-Double of the Vizier vanished into thin air! VisceraEyes, Wife of marvellosity is still sick at home! The battle to re-take Liquidia has begun! You have approximately 46 hours to vote. Voting will end Sunday, Jun 10 11:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
This game follows Extended Majority Lynch. In order for a player to be lynched, they must reach majority before the deadline, or else a no lynch will take place. Majority is # of Players Alive/2, rounded up.
First post by a non-player? Where are you all at?!
Anyway, I'm glad to see some friendly faces, and I'm glad to have the opportunity to again hunt scum.
I have one piece of advice which I hope will be helpful and also get the discussion going. Go after your reads strongly, but do not tunnel. Constantly take the temperature of the thread, consider outside input, and don't spend all your time arguing with one target. The back and forth quickly turns into OMGUS, and makes both you and your target look bad.
Make your case, read the defense, and then look for that outside input.
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.
"Tunneling" is not a good thing to do. Of course, there exists a point between "tunneling" and pursuing a lead that murks the waters.
Maybe we should think about on our strategy? At least something to pull and potential lurkers out and get some discussion going. I'll start: We should have a roll call of every person at latest 4-5 hours before voting period. Anyone agree or disagree?
On June 09 2012 11:47 KtheZ wrote: Er not roll call, that's not the word i was looking for. I mean look for at least 1 or 2 posts from each person 4-5 hours before the voting period.
Yeah, you should always check people's filters and make analysis on them.
On June 09 2012 11:47 KtheZ wrote: Er not roll call, that's not the word i was looking for. I mean look for at least 1 or 2 posts from each person 4-5 hours before the voting period.
Yeah, you should always check people's filters and make analysis on them.
Yeah but we can't do this if there are people who don't talk. Thus I'm trying to create discussion.
Depending on how many people are lurking and how many people appear scummy, we have to adjust our strategy. Right now, Grush is appearing incredibly scummy, but we can't let the lurkers off the hook.
Grush, pick up your game. To be honest, grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours.
my bad. The case against you
Provide some analysis to prove your case.
Also, the first thing to do as town is to prove your innocent so people don't tunnel you all day.
With time zone differences, it's going to be near impossible for everyone to be around for lynch time.
That said, everyone should make their best effort to do so. This is a small game, and a majority will be hard to come by if people aren't around.
KtheZ, your suggestion to look for activity around vote time is correct but also obvious. Absences will be noted, and factored into reads where applicable.
On to the next thing...
Every game I've played in has had lurkers, and they really shit up the game. We need to decide if, in absence of a clear majority, we pursue a lurker policy lynch. This is extra important in this game, because mislynches are extra deadly when the player field is small. My opinion is that if we have no worthy cases, a policy lynch is better than risking a no-lynch no lynch.
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.
You are trying to get people to believe that there is nothing to talk about on day 1. If people don't talk, there is no need for mafia to talk either, and this eliminates their chances of making scumslip. Then the night actions occur, where we can assume someone dies. But we still have "nothing" to talk about because no one talked on day 1 and we can't use the death to the town's advantage. Then another night action, more silence, ... , until the whole town is dead. This doesn't help the town, therefore
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.
You are trying to get people to believe that there is nothing to talk about on day 1. If people don't talk, there is no need for mafia to talk either, and this eliminates their chances of making scumslip. Then the night actions occur, where we can assume someone dies. But we still have "nothing" to talk about because no one talked on day 1 and we can't use the death to the town's advantage. Then another night action, more silence, ... , until the whole town is dead. This doesn't help the town, therefore
On June 09 2012 12:02 grush57 wrote: Also, do you really think that I'm scum? Why the hell would a scum even post right now when 80% of people didn't even post yet.
As far as i can tell, your agenda is to get a lurker lynch , you want to exclude yourself from the pool or lurkers.
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.
You are trying to get people to believe that there is nothing to talk about on day 1. If people don't talk, there is no need for mafia to talk either, and this eliminates their chances of making scumslip. Then the night actions occur, where we can assume someone dies. But we still have "nothing" to talk about because no one talked on day 1 and we can't use the death to the town's advantage. Then another night action, more silence, ... , until the whole town is dead. This doesn't help the town, therefore
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
That was when there were 2 posts? 3?
There are many things to talk about though and your defeatist, lets-not-talk attitude does not help town. Those 2/3 posts at least had content in them. Yours was simply trying to discourage discussion.
What kind of policy lynching would be a good idea for us? Lynch all liars and lynch lurkers (in the absence of a clear majority)? Just a couple suggestions of mine.
My two cents on the grush debate unfolding: grush has given a minor scumtell but it doesnt hurt to keep discussing the situation. Once we get enough opinions we could probably have enough information (hopefully) to decide an educated day 1 lynch.
We obviously don't want to go into bandwagon syndrome (for a majority) and bandwagon after 1 person does some minor analysis; We will win if everyone does analysis of their own analysis and fingers point at the correct people
On June 09 2012 12:07 grush57 wrote: Yeah, but I'm not a lurker.
Therefore, in your agenda, you won't be lynched. Pretty funny how logic works isn't it?
Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker. However, if there are no clear scum then a lurker lynch would be best.
! Something to talk about. Guess you were lying earlier.
Now your helpi No shit we want to lynch a lurker. Thank you for repeating points that have already been made.
So you don't want to lynch a scum. You want to lynch a lurker that will give no information. Ah, that isn't scummy.
Actually, you're right; that is scummy.
It is a response to "Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker" and it should have been "No shit we want to lynch a scum." I'm sure you could have figured that out, and i'm pretty sure the others did and that's why they didn't feel the need to bring it up.
On June 09 2012 12:07 grush57 wrote: Yeah, but I'm not a lurker.
Therefore, in your agenda, you won't be lynched. Pretty funny how logic works isn't it?
Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker. However, if there are no clear scum then a lurker lynch would be best.
! Something to talk about. Guess you were lying earlier.
Now your helpi No shit we want to lynch a lurker. Thank you for repeating points that have already been made.
So you don't want to lynch a scum. You want to lynch a lurker that will give no information. Ah, that isn't scummy.
Actually, you're right; that is scummy.
It is a response to "Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker" and it should have been "No shit we want to lynch a scum." I'm sure you could have figured that out, and i'm pretty sure the others did and that's why they didn't feel the need to bring it up.
How would I know if it was a typo or not. And find me a post that said that.
Lynching all liars is dicey. In a newb game I'm betting any lies we find will be unintentional. If you are referring to a blue claim, there will be plenty of context to interpret it if/when it happens. There is no need for a policy application there, just reasoning.
Lynching lurkers is still risky, but the chance of hitting scum is definitely there. As I said, the stakes are high, as every mislynch is painful. If the lurker in question flips green, then at least we have rid ourselves of a useless townie. This is why I still advocate it. People who are talking give us content to work with, and in the absence of a compelling case, we could do a lot worse than lynching a crappy townie/maybe get lucky hitting scum.
That said, it's a worst case scenario. The onus is on us to smoke out the scum so we don't have to resort to the policy lynch.
On June 09 2012 12:07 grush57 wrote: Yeah, but I'm not a lurker.
Therefore, in your agenda, you won't be lynched. Pretty funny how logic works isn't it?
Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker. However, if there are no clear scum then a lurker lynch would be best.
! Something to talk about. Guess you were lying earlier.
Now your helpi No shit we want to lynch a lurker. Thank you for repeating points that have already been made.
So you don't want to lynch a scum. You want to lynch a lurker that will give no information. Ah, that isn't scummy.
Actually, you're right; that is scummy.
It is a response to "Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker" and it should have been "No shit we want to lynch a scum." I'm sure you could have figured that out, and i'm pretty sure the others did and that's why they didn't feel the need to bring it up.
How would I know if it was a typo or not. And find me a post that said that.
You would know because of the tone. I responded as if it were dead obvious. Your "Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker" was something that was dead obvious. Therefore, the two are likely to be linked.
That said what? "i'm pretty sure the others did and that's why they didn't feel the need to bring it up." means that there won't be other posts to say "that"
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
On June 09 2012 12:07 grush57 wrote: Yeah, but I'm not a lurker.
Therefore, in your agenda, you won't be lynched. Pretty funny how logic works isn't it?
Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker. However, if there are no clear scum then a lurker lynch would be best.
! Something to talk about. Guess you were lying earlier.
Now your helpi No shit we want to lynch a lurker. Thank you for repeating points that have already been made.
So you don't want to lynch a scum. You want to lynch a lurker that will give no information. Ah, that isn't scummy.
Actually, you're right; that is scummy.
It is a response to "Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker" and it should have been "No shit we want to lynch a scum." I'm sure you could have figured that out, and i'm pretty sure the others did and that's why they didn't feel the need to bring it up.
How would I know if it was a typo or not. And find me a post that said that.
You would know because of the tone. I responded as if it were dead obvious. Your "Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker" was something that was dead obvious. Therefore, the two are likely to be linked.
That said what? "i'm pretty sure the others did and that's why they didn't feel the need to bring it up." means that there won't be other posts to say "that"
How stupid of me for me to think what you mean by what you type.
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
There has been some stuff said on policy. People who haven't posted yet should post their thoughts on what was discussed. I want to be done with this policy stuff sooner rather than later.
Also, I want to hear what others think of Release and grush.
My opinion is that Grush's comment on having nothing to talk about was weird as hell. Release has done the talking here so I won't repeat. Grush, I will be watching to see what you do when there's more content to work with.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
I posted before them and I answered their questions of what I said, I'm not just blindly echoing their thoughts. Plus, with all the lurkers the only thing to talk about is lynching policy and the lurkers.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
Oh, and please contribute of how you want to lynch please I want to see.
After all that i have said, you still refuse to acknowledge how i want to lynch. It's dead obvious that i want to hunt scum first. Obviously that's not possible, so whoever appears scummiest, if they appear scummy. However, if no one appears scummy, and there are lurkers, then a lurker. If no lurkers, then you. In fact, i would put you in the first category right now.
"You're just echoing what everyone else says" Yeah, and that's why i haven't posted until this moment. But since you insist to not read what i have already said, i feel that you need to read this in order to see how i want to lynch.
To be honest, this post is quite useless, so unless your name is grush57, I don't think you need to read it.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
I posted before them and I answered their questions of what I said, I'm not just blindly echoing their thoughts. Plus, with all the lurkers the only thing to talk about is lynching policy and the lurkers.
Another attempt to avoid discussion of your play and posts. We have quite a few pages discussing you play and there is only lurkers to talk about?
On June 09 2012 13:31 grush57 wrote: You just posted exactly what I posted 2 pages ago. Seriously, stop saying stuff every townie sais.
"Yeah, and that's why i haven't posted until this moment. But since you insist to not read what i have already said, i feel that you need to read this in order to see how i want to lynch "
You told me to write that did you not? I told you that everyone (who wants to appear townie) will post the same thing did I not? That why i included the bolded phrase, to show that only you wanted to read what i wrote. That only you wanted me to make the extra post that would inevitably clog up the thread.
Answer me this: Why is it only you who wants me to make a post to answer a question that has already been answered?
Why am I not in this game you piece of shit host. Fuck your momma in the shower and turn off the water right before i cum on her face then send her off to work with my jizz in her hair n` shit, you teabagged cocksucking son of a bitch.
Hey everyone, just woke up as it is about 11.00 where I live ; P.
Regarding lynches: I really really dislike nolynching for three reasons. 1. because the information that we are able to get out of it is very limited. Yes, we avoid a potential misslynch but on the other hand scum will score a more or less a free-kill during night. Essentially, we are back on D1 but this time we are in a 6-2 instead of a 7-2. 2. If we agree to nolynch then what is there to discuss? It's like asking for people to lurk even more. 3. With no vigilante in the game the only way we can win is to lynch scum. Kinda obvious but still. We require 5+ votes in order to get a lynch done. With that in mind I hope that people are willing to vote for someone who isn't their top 1 scum. Obviously, if you REALLY don't think there is any chance that the person that is about to be lynched can be scum, then sure, don't vote him. But if it seems like your target hardly gets any votes and your second highest scumread is at 4 votes with 30 minutes untill deadline, then I think you should swap your vote onto him.
Lurkers!: There are two types of lurkers. The ones who doesn't post anything and the sneaky ones, who posts ALOT but nothing of value. The first category could either be bad town play or scum play. But the second category is almost exclusivly scum play. If you are a townie, speak your mind, don't make a super duper long post when you could've said it on just a few lines. Keep it simple. With that being said, post!
I wanted to get this post out as fast as possible because it's my first one. Will be reading the rest of the thread now!
I have read some of the grush-release discussion, and i can say that i did found Grush comment weird. Also some of his later post is also strange. I will post a analysis on him later.
But release, you are going against him to hard. You said it yourself before, that your comment is useless to anyone but grush. If it's like that, you should let others give their opinions about him, and focus on someone else for a bit.
Also, as to my opinions on lynching, i agree that in case there is a hard lurker and no scum reads we should lynch the lurker, as he is not contributing anyways. But lynching with not much information (like d1) will probably result in a misslynch. We still gain information even is there is no lynch, by observing how players act before lynch, what they vote for, reaction after lynch, etc.
grush57 you are confusing the hell out of me atm. Yes, your comment about ''Nothing to talk about'' is scummy but that's not all. You're filter is already 1 page long, but all your posts are very short one or two liners. Literally you don't have a singel post that's more than 2 lines. Most of your filter is in fact quotes which makes it look longer than it is in fact.
Your second post is this:
On June 09 2012 11:13 grush57 wrote: (Yes, lets pressure the only non-lurker) Woo!
So this doesn't add anything to the discussion really. If I understand this correctly, you think that because you are posting (which at the point isn't true at all because you only posted once before but w/e) it makes you look townie and that s0Lstice and Release should instead focus at the people that havn't posted yet. Long story short: you think that lurkers are scummy.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
On June 09 2012 12:07 grush57 wrote: Yeah, but I'm not a lurker.
Some hours later you post this. You clearly don't want to be viewed as a lurker. Still you post only very short posts, wouldn't it be more effective to post longer posts with better content if you wanted to apear non-lurker? Instead of telling everyone that you aren't a lurker?
On June 09 2012 12:07 grush57 wrote: Yeah, but I'm not a lurker.
Therefore, in your agenda, you won't be lynched. Pretty funny how logic works isn't it?
Yeah but I want scum lynched not necessarily a lurker. However, if there are no clear scum then a lurker lynch would be best.
! Something to talk about. Guess you were lying earlier.
Now your helpi No shit we want to lynch a lurker. Thank you for repeating points that have already been made.
So you don't want to lynch a scum. You want to lynch a lurker that will give no information. Ah, that isn't scummy.
Once again you change your mind. Lurkers gives no information. I take this as lynching lurkers are terrible I guess. The last post before you are off.
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
You are all over the place atm. You don't take a clear stance with your opinion on lurkers but flip your opinion like 4 times. And you also seem very concerned with the possibilty of being a lurker. It's really simple. If you post good stuff, you will not be considered a lurker. There is no point in trying to convince us wheter oor not you are one.
On June 09 2012 18:11 The_Zen_Man wrote:Also, as to my opinions on lynching, i agree that in case there is a hard lurker and no scum reads we should lynch the lurker, as he is not contributing anyways. But lynching with not much information (like d1) will probably result in a misslynch. We still gain information even is there is no lynch, by observing how players act before lynch, what they vote for, reaction after lynch, etc.
There isn't ever going to be a situation where we have no scumreads at the deadline. Never. We already have grush57 being massivly suspicious and this is just a couple of hours into the game! Yes we gain info from nolynches but nowhere as much as a normal lynch. The reason being is that nolynch isn't really a bad choice for scum so they don't really have to take a specific stance anywhere in order to fit in. I think no lynch simply is inferior to lynching.
Allright, I've read this boring discussion between grush and release and I hope I can give some insight as to what my opinions are.
As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect. The
This being said I think Release is being way too hard on the guy, just after a couple of posts by grush he says "grush is appearing incredibly scummy" which I think is very harsh to say this early on in the game.
After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
On June 09 2012 18:11 The_Zen_Man wrote: Hey guys, just woke up(time difference suck).
I have read some of the grush-release discussion, and i can say that i did found Grush comment weird. Also some of his later post is also strange. I will post a analysis on him later.
But release, you are going against him to hard. You said it yourself before, that your comment is useless to anyone but grush. If it's like that, you should let others give their opinions about him, and focus on someone else for a bit.
Also, as to my opinions on lynching, i agree that in case there is a hard lurker and no scum reads we should lynch the lurker, as he is not contributing anyways. But lynching with not much information (like d1) will probably result in a misslynch. We still gain information even is there is no lynch, by observing how players act before lynch, what they vote for, reaction after lynch, etc.
Personally I think its ok for release to keep pressuring grush; I'm interested in grush's responses. The more he talks the more evidence he will create for or against himself. Although, as noted in my earlier comment, ad hominem gets us nowhere, so hopefully it wont degenerate into that.
only managed to make some time for posting now. Going through the thread until now the only real content on we have is the discussion on grush. His first post is suspicious and given the lack of other content to analyze right now best person to push at the moment. Especially since his responses really did not satisfy. But given the fact that we still have 24+ hours for day 1 I would rather wait for everybody to form his opinion before really comitting to a lynch. So to all you resident lurkers I want to see you posting!
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: Allright, I've read this boring discussion between grush and release and I hope I can give some insight as to what my opinions are.
What makes the first worthwhile thing on day 1 boring to you?
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: Allright, I've read this boring discussion between grush and release and I hope I can give some insight as to what my opinions are.
What makes the first worthwhile thing on day 1 boring to you?
Seriously? That's the point that stands out the most to you in my post?
You highlighting it being the "first worthwhile thing" makes it seem to me as though you're implying that therefore it cannot be boring which I find hard to understand. However, it was boring because both of them were in my opinion just going around in circles throughout three pages of posts.
On June 09 2012 22:57 grush57 wrote: Lazermonkey you'r misinterpreting things and putting words in my mouth. The words I type are what they mean, I was never lying.
I never said that you lied. I think at least ; ). You are the person with the most posts atm but out of those posts 50% are about how you want to lynch scum and what not. They didn't really give us anything. The other 50% is about lurkers. The major issue for me is that even after theese posts I don't get a clear view on your opinion on lurkers. Yes, we know that you prefer to lynch obvious scum instead of lurkers. Anything but that would be strange. Except for that, your opinion seem to flip back and foreward.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: Allright, I've read this boring discussion between grush and release and I hope I can give some insight as to what my opinions are.
What makes the first worthwhile thing on day 1 boring to you?
Seriously? That's the point that stands out the most to you in my post?
You highlighting it being the "first worthwhile thing" makes it seem to me as though you're implying that therefore it cannot be boring which I find hard to understand. However, it was boring because both of them were in my opinion just going around in circles throughout three pages of posts.
I did read through your post and I felt obliged to point out something which stood out to me. I am saying that it is not boring as it gives us something to discuss and analyse on in order to go scumhunting. As scumhunting (obviously) takes top priority I do not see how it could be boring to you to get something to work with.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
I might have been exaggerating a bit but if you compare with the tone of his previous post there is a clear difference.
On June 09 2012 11:13 grush57 wrote: (Yes, lets pressure the only non-lurker) Woo!
Feel free to correct me grush, but I take this as; Why push me when you could push someone who isn't posting? And why would you ever push someone if you didn't think they were scummy? He is implying that there is scum among lurkers, which at that point wasn't to bold of a claim to make due to the fact that only 3 people had posted back then. The second post is more like; Sure people lurks atm but it's fine due to the circumstances
None of the posts individually strikes me as scummy but together I feel he is contradicting himself quite a bit. If he thinks there is scum among lurkers then why doesn't he push any of them? And if he thinks that it's okay with people lurking at some circumstances why is he now suspicious of the lurkers?
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
How? If he thinks there is two scum among lurkers and there is a total of two scum in the game, there cannot be any scum among those who are posting, right?
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
How? If he thinks there is two scum among lurkers and there is a total of two scum in the game, there cannot be any scum among those who are posting, right?
This isn't the point I am making. He says he "wouldn't be surprised" if this were the case, not that he is sure that it is the case and from what I understand he isn't making this assumption based on his "readings", rather a motto that players that don't post alot are usually mafia (which, to me isn't very logical).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
How? If he thinks there is two scum among lurkers and there is a total of two scum in the game, there cannot be any scum among those who are posting, right?
This isn't the point I am making. He says he "wouldn't be surprised" if this were the case, not that he is sure that it is the case and from what I understand he isn't making this assumption based on his "readings", rather a motto that players that don't post alot are usually mafia (which, to me isn't very logical).
Why would he say ''I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.'' if he didn't even think that himself? He could've just kept his mouth shut if his thoughts were very vauge. He choosed not to. So he thinks it's of enough substance to be posted.
And even if you are correct I don't like this post. He doesn't help us at all by saying ''there is a possibilty of 2 scum hiding among the lurkers''. Everyone understands this.
Lazermonkey seems to make his own conclusions about grush, without it being the truth, as ha236 stated. His latest comments about the "i wouln't be suprised" quote is strange. Grush simply said that the scum might be among the ones that had not posted, but you just jumped to the conclusion that he meant that everyone that had posted was his townread.
You also jumped to conclusion when grush wrote:
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk. [QUOTE][B]
Where you assumed his stance was changed on lurkers. I think he only wanted to state a reason for people not posting.
I agree that grush seemed scummy, but don't try to come up with conclusion that are not true.
[QUOTE]On June 10 2012 04:35 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey seems to make his own conclusions about grush, without it being the truth, as ha236 stated. His latest comments about the "i wouln't be suprised" quote is strange. Grush simply said that the scum might be among the ones that had not posted, but you just jumped to the conclusion that he meant that everyone that had posted was his townread.
You also jumped to conclusion when grush wrote: [QUOTE]On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours [/QUOTE]So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk. [QUOTE][B]
Where you assumed his stance was changed on lurkers. I think he only wanted to state a reason for people not posting.
I agree that grush seemed scummy, but don't try to come up with conclusion that are not true.[/QUOTE] Did you even read my answer to ha236? I feel like I have already answered all of your questions...
Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.
Now I want to talk about ha236
Let's look at his post on grush and LazerMonkey.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
Then you talk about LaserMonkey..
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
How? If he thinks there is two scum among lurkers and there is a total of two scum in the game, there cannot be any scum among those who are posting, right?
This isn't the point I am making. He says he "wouldn't be surprised" if this were the case, not that he is sure that it is the case and from what I understand he isn't making this assumption based on his "readings", rather a motto that players that don't post alot are usually mafia (which, to me isn't very logical).
Why would he say ''I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.'' if he didn't even think that himself? He could've just kept his mouth shut if his thoughts were very vauge. He choosed not to. So he thinks it's of enough substance to be posted.
And even if you are correct I don't like this post. He doesn't help us at all by saying ''there is a possibilty of 2 scum hiding among the lurkers''. Everyone understands this.
I didn't say that he wasn't thinking it, I said that he wasn't sure. As for why he said it, probably for the reason of generating discussion - which everyone is so keen on doing on day one from what I've gathered.
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
How? If he thinks there is two scum among lurkers and there is a total of two scum in the game, there cannot be any scum among those who are posting, right?
This isn't the point I am making. He says he "wouldn't be surprised" if this were the case, not that he is sure that it is the case and from what I understand he isn't making this assumption based on his "readings", rather a motto that players that don't post alot are usually mafia (which, to me isn't very logical).
Why would he say ''I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.'' if he didn't even think that himself? He could've just kept his mouth shut if his thoughts were very vauge. He choosed not to. So he thinks it's of enough substance to be posted.
And even if you are correct I don't like this post. He doesn't help us at all by saying ''there is a possibilty of 2 scum hiding among the lurkers''. Everyone understands this.
I didn't say that he wasn't thinking it, I said that he wasn't sure. As for why he said it, probably for the reason of generating discussion - which everyone is so keen on doing on day one from what I've gathered.
You can never be sure of anyone being scum, unless you of course are scum/detective. On D1, your accusations will never be more than an educated guess.
lazermonkey, you were putting words in grush's mouth. Stop it.
Grush, i find it incredibly convenient that in all of this time, you have not answered to me.
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: Depending on how many people are lurking and how many people appear scummy, we have to adjust our strategy. Right now, Grush is appearing incredibly scummy, but we can't let the lurkers off the hook.
Grush, pick up your game. To be honest, grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.
You are trying to get people to believe that there is nothing to talk about on day 1. If people don't talk, there is no need for mafia to talk either, and this eliminates their chances of making scumslip. Then the night actions occur, where we can assume someone dies. But we still have "nothing" to talk about because no one talked on day 1 and we can't use the death to the town's advantage. Then another night action, more silence, ... , until the whole town is dead. This doesn't help the town, therefore
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
That was when there were 2 posts? 3?
There are many things to talk about though and your defeatist, lets-not-talk attitude does not help town. Those 2/3 posts at least had content in them. Yours was simply trying to discourage discussion.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
I posted before them and I answered their questions of what I said, I'm not just blindly echoing their thoughts. Plus, with all the lurkers the only thing to talk about is lynching policy and the lurkers.
subtle, very subtle, but see how you're avoiding me?
On June 09 2012 13:31 grush57 wrote: You just posted exactly what I posted 2 pages ago. Seriously, stop saying stuff every townie sais.
"Yeah, and that's why i haven't posted until this moment. But since you insist to not read what i have already said, i feel that you need to read this in order to see how i want to lynch "
You told me to write that did you not? I told you that everyone (who wants to appear townie) will post the same thing did I not? That why i included the bolded phrase, to show that only you wanted to read what i wrote. That only you wanted me to make the extra post that would inevitably clog up the thread.
Answer me this: Why is it only you who wants me to make a post to answer a question that has already been answered?
On June 09 2012 13:31 grush57 wrote: You just posted exactly what I posted 2 pages ago. Seriously, stop saying stuff every townie sais.
this little gem. Why would you post that? I said that my post was only for you, that it was a waste of space and time, and you just use the reasoning i used against you when the only reason i answered was because you wanted me to answer something that "every townie sais" and should be exactly what you posted 2 pages ago.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: Depending on how many people are lurking and how many people appear scummy, we have to adjust our strategy. Right now, Grush is appearing incredibly scummy, but we can't let the lurkers off the hook.
Grush, pick up your game. To be honest, grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.
You are trying to get people to believe that there is nothing to talk about on day 1. If people don't talk, there is no need for mafia to talk either, and this eliminates their chances of making scumslip. Then the night actions occur, where we can assume someone dies. But we still have "nothing" to talk about because no one talked on day 1 and we can't use the death to the town's advantage. Then another night action, more silence, ... , until the whole town is dead. This doesn't help the town, therefore
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
That was when there were 2 posts? 3?
There are many things to talk about though and your defeatist, lets-not-talk attitude does not help town. Those 2/3 posts at least had content in them. Yours was simply trying to discourage discussion.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
I posted before them and I answered their questions of what I said, I'm not just blindly echoing their thoughts. Plus, with all the lurkers the only thing to talk about is lynching policy and the lurkers.
subtle, very subtle, but see how you're avoiding me?
On June 09 2012 13:31 grush57 wrote: You just posted exactly what I posted 2 pages ago. Seriously, stop saying stuff every townie sais.
"Yeah, and that's why i haven't posted until this moment. But since you insist to not read what i have already said, i feel that you need to read this in order to see how i want to lynch "
You told me to write that did you not? I told you that everyone (who wants to appear townie) will post the same thing did I not? That why i included the bolded phrase, to show that only you wanted to read what i wrote. That only you wanted me to make the extra post that would inevitably clog up the thread.
Answer me this: Why is it only you who wants me to make a post to answer a question that has already been answered?
On June 10 2012 05:14 Release wrote: lazermonkey, you were putting words in grush's mouth. Stop it.
Grush, i find it incredibly convenient that in all of this time, you have not answered to me.
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: Depending on how many people are lurking and how many people appear scummy, we have to adjust our strategy. Right now, Grush is appearing incredibly scummy, but we can't let the lurkers off the hook.
Grush, pick up your game. To be honest, grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
On June 09 2012 12:08 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:05 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:04 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 11:00 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.
You are trying to get people to believe that there is nothing to talk about on day 1. If people don't talk, there is no need for mafia to talk either, and this eliminates their chances of making scumslip. Then the night actions occur, where we can assume someone dies. But we still have "nothing" to talk about because no one talked on day 1 and we can't use the death to the town's advantage. Then another night action, more silence, ... , until the whole town is dead. This doesn't help the town, therefore
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
That was when there were 2 posts? 3?
There are many things to talk about though and your defeatist, lets-not-talk attitude does not help town. Those 2/3 posts at least had content in them. Yours was simply trying to discourage discussion.
On June 09 2012 13:11 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:56 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:51 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
On June 09 2012 13:19 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 13:11 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:56 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:51 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
I posted before them and I answered their questions of what I said, I'm not just blindly echoing their thoughts. Plus, with all the lurkers the only thing to talk about is lynching policy and the lurkers.
subtle, very subtle, but see how you're avoiding me?
On June 09 2012 13:40 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 13:31 grush57 wrote: You just posted exactly what I posted 2 pages ago. Seriously, stop saying stuff every townie sais.
"Yeah, and that's why i haven't posted until this moment. But since you insist to not read what i have already said, i feel that you need to read this in order to see how i want to lynch "
You told me to write that did you not? I told you that everyone (who wants to appear townie) will post the same thing did I not? That why i included the bolded phrase, to show that only you wanted to read what i wrote. That only you wanted me to make the extra post that would inevitably clog up the thread.
Answer me this: Why is it only you who wants me to make a post to answer a question that has already been answered?
Still no answer
LOL, my answer was the sarcastic remark...
That is you answer to why discouraging discussion is playing to win for town? Why your post of the first 3 or 4 was the only one to lack content? Why you lied about my post (labelling them as 1-liners)? Why you insist on repeating obvious generic pro-town words in your posts? Why you literally wanted me to post crap so you could call it crap?
And ofc, i don't believe for a second that the sarcastic remark counts as a response to all those, why you have been avoiding answering these for such a long time?
On June 10 2012 05:14 Release wrote: lazermonkey, you were putting words in grush's mouth. Stop it.
grush is 100% allowed to answer my accusations himself. In fact, I'd much rather prefer that over having you, ha236 and Thezenman telling me that I'm putting words in grush's mouth.
Also mind to show exactly WHERE I made these false assuomptions you are talking about?
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: Allright, I've read this boring discussion between grush and release and I hope I can give some insight as to what my opinions are.
As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect. The
This being said I think Release is being way too hard on the guy, just after a couple of posts by grush he says "grush is appearing incredibly scummy" which I think is very harsh to say this early on in the game.
After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
not that you could know this, but Grush is the most experienced one of us all. To my knowledge, he has played at least twice in the "big leagues."
Go read those few posts. They are scummy as hell.
I agree, lazermonkey has been putting words in grush's mouth
Lazermonkey is correct on the two different types though. And i think that grush fits into the one about posting stuff iwth no content. He has the (second) longest filter and there is pretty much nothing at all useful, however there is a ton of harmful stuff.
On June 10 2012 05:14 Release wrote: lazermonkey, you were putting words in grush's mouth. Stop it.
Grush, i find it incredibly convenient that in all of this time, you have not answered to me.
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: Depending on how many people are lurking and how many people appear scummy, we have to adjust our strategy. Right now, Grush is appearing incredibly scummy, but we can't let the lurkers off the hook.
Grush, pick up your game. To be honest, grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
On June 09 2012 12:08 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:05 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:04 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 11:00 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
Yeah, but absolutely nothing to talk about right now. There is no mayor vote so really nothing to talk about right now.
You are trying to get people to believe that there is nothing to talk about on day 1. If people don't talk, there is no need for mafia to talk either, and this eliminates their chances of making scumslip. Then the night actions occur, where we can assume someone dies. But we still have "nothing" to talk about because no one talked on day 1 and we can't use the death to the town's advantage. Then another night action, more silence, ... , until the whole town is dead. This doesn't help the town, therefore
On June 09 2012 11:51 Release wrote: grush57 must be scum because one of the rules of this game is "play to win" and well, he clearly isn't.
That was when there were 2 posts? 3?
There are many things to talk about though and your defeatist, lets-not-talk attitude does not help town. Those 2/3 posts at least had content in them. Yours was simply trying to discourage discussion.
On June 09 2012 13:11 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:56 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:51 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
On June 09 2012 13:19 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 13:11 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:56 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:51 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote: Seriously you accuse me of discouraging discussion and want me to discuss, and then when I do you make it a bad thing, lol.
"Let's lynch scum." I'm contributing to the discussion. Yay!!!
Do some real contribution like analysis (you said it yourself). Summary is useful for clogging up the thread.
On June 09 2012 12:44 grush57 wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:31 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 12:29 grush57 wrote: Actually, I state how I want to lynch and you just blindly tunnel me.
i decided to lynch you when you made the "there's nothing to talk about post," far far far earlier than your post telling us how you want to lynch, which was essentially how any townie wants to lynch, with a touch of solstice's opinion of lurker lynching.
Why are you making me posting something how any town wants to lynch a bad thing?
Because it doesn't move the discussion forward. It clogs up the thread. It's already in people's heads and they don't need to see it on the screen because it's so dead obvious. And it doesn't help us find scum.
On June 09 2012 12:35 KtheZ wrote: I think we're straying a little deeper into ad hominem territory than needed gentlemen
I disagree. His play is bad for town and i am attacking that.
Oh and I think like 4 people posted so far(including me). You are just flooding the thread with 1 liners tunneling me, solstice has just been talking about lynching policy like me, and the same with KtheZ.
Less than 50% of my posts against you have been 1 liners. 1 liners are not necessarily useless if the point is clear. My points are pretty obvious. And instead of responding to my analyses, you are attacking my posts literally, and not the content. Stop avoiding the content.
Hardly; you have been echoing their thoughts and providing useless "lynch scum > lynch lurker."
I don't think i'm tunneling. It's only 4 hours in, there's a good chance that the other 5 are working/sleeping. But you have been here and because of that, i feel that it is more useful to be focusing on you, rather than people who will take hours to respond to my posts that will have been buried in the thread by non-related posts.
I haven't forgotten about the lurkers, if that's what you're getting at. We just don't need to deal with the lurkers right at this moment. When 24 hours comes and goes, i'll start dealing with what to do with the lurkers, but right now, dealing with you is much more important.
I posted before them and I answered their questions of what I said, I'm not just blindly echoing their thoughts. Plus, with all the lurkers the only thing to talk about is lynching policy and the lurkers.
subtle, very subtle, but see how you're avoiding me?
On June 09 2012 13:40 Release wrote:
On June 09 2012 13:31 grush57 wrote: You just posted exactly what I posted 2 pages ago. Seriously, stop saying stuff every townie sais.
"Yeah, and that's why i haven't posted until this moment. But since you insist to not read what i have already said, i feel that you need to read this in order to see how i want to lynch "
You told me to write that did you not? I told you that everyone (who wants to appear townie) will post the same thing did I not? That why i included the bolded phrase, to show that only you wanted to read what i wrote. That only you wanted me to make the extra post that would inevitably clog up the thread.
Answer me this: Why is it only you who wants me to make a post to answer a question that has already been answered?
Still no answer
LOL, my answer was the sarcastic remark...
That is you answer to why discouraging discussion is playing to win for town? Why your post of the first 3 or 4 was the only one to lack content? Why you lied about my post (labelling them as 1-liners)? Why you insist on repeating obvious generic pro-town words in your posts? Why you literally wanted me to post crap so you could call it crap?
And ofc, i don't believe for a second that the sarcastic remark counts as a response to all those, why you have been avoiding answering these for such a long time?
Thanks for making a post with all the questions in them. I'll get to them.
On June 09 2012 19:21 Lazermonkey wrote: grush57 you are confusing the hell out of me atm. Yes, your comment about ''Nothing to talk about'' is scummy but that's not all. You're filter is already 1 page long, but all your posts are very short one or two liners. Literally you don't have a singel post that's more than 2 lines. Most of your filter is in fact quotes which makes it look longer than it is in fact.
On June 09 2012 11:13 grush57 wrote: (Yes, lets pressure the only non-lurker) Woo!
So this doesn't add anything to the discussion really. If I understand this correctly, you think that because you are posting (which at the point isn't true at all because you only posted once before but w/e) it makes you look townie and that s0Lstice and Release should instead focus at the people that havn't posted yet. Long story short: you think that lurkers are scummy.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
On June 09 2012 12:07 grush57 wrote: Yeah, but I'm not a lurker.
Some hours later you post this. You clearly don't want to be viewed as a lurker. Still you post only very short posts, wouldn't it be more effective to post longer posts with better content if you wanted to apear non-lurker? Instead of telling everyone that you aren't a lurker?
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
You are all over the place atm. You don't take a clear stance with your opinion on lurkers but flip your opinion like 4 times. And you also seem very concerned with the possibilty of being a lurker. It's really simple. If you post good stuff, you will not be considered a lurker. There is no point in trying to convince us wheter oor not you are one.
FoS: grush57
He isn't claiming to look townie. He is claiming to not be a lurker and that he looks better than lurkers atm. My opinion on this is that the lurkers won't respond to shit so we can only focus on him and he is trying to avoid attention.
He saying that people haven't had time to get on yet. He doesn't say that it's fine, but it does contradict his first point.
Can't disagree with you on this one.
No, he's not saying anything here. This is generic townie shit that works to clog up the thread and nothing more.
He responding to my typo (he couldn't figure out the typo) so in context, he is correct. But this is still generic town shit saying lynch scum > lynch lurker. he is not saying that lynching lurkers are terrible, only that it's worse than a scum. I gave him credit for this earlier too.
He's not suspicious. He's trying to draw attention away from him and my questioning of his play. See how we had this long drawn out arguement and he suddenly decides to act cooperatively? (he still doesn't answer my questions and this may have gone unnoticed if i hadn't realized what happenend)
On June 10 2012 05:42 s0Lstice wrote: Release, what do you think of my post on ha236?
Lazermonkey, same question.
I dunno what to think yet. He needs to post more before a can make a clear read. My initiall thought is that he is somewhat of an inexperienced townie or scum. I share your suspicion on him at this very moment, not only because of your post but also because of the way he doesn't seem to take a clear stance anywhere. He is soft defending grush but still thinks he is suspcious? His only real critique at this point is against me for making to big assumptions against grush. He still states that he overall agree with my suspicion of grush.
I need to go to bed now, will be away for about 12 hours : S. See you guys tomorrow!
On June 10 2012 05:47 s0Lstice wrote: Grush, the best way to defend yourself is to hunt scum. Spend your time doing that, not wasting all of your time responding to Release.
Should that go in the Mafia QT?
But if he does turn out to be scum, we shouldn't be giving him advice. That's what the post game is for.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
##FoS: ha236
To check if this really is Grush's first game is a tremendous waste of time. There are far too many game to check. (i believe we have 55 regular mafias and 15 newb ones.) To me it looks like he is trying to buddy up to grush but i can't be sure of that. I agree; playing the noob card as reasoning is too much assumptions.
It looks more like the two quoted posts are strange (and putting words in grush's mouth) but the agreement is that grush has been wishy-washy.
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
On June 10 2012 05:47 s0Lstice wrote: Grush, the best way to defend yourself is to hunt scum. Spend your time doing that, not wasting all of your time responding to Release.
Should that go in the Mafia QT?
But if he does turn out to be scum, we shouldn't be giving him advice. That's what the post game is for.
That post was useless. Don't give information to the enemy? Wow, never thought of that.
Oh wow, thread got really active while I was cheering on the Germans.
What I would suggest right now is to stop tunneling grush for the time and add some pressure to ha236. I am still waiting for answers regarding my question and his post is basically the statement that he is ready to jump on grush if he gets to be the primary lynch candidate.
Not saying that I am clearing grush from the suspicions but he cannot contribute that much if he keeps defending, give him some leeway until we really have to consolidate on a lynch and see what he can cook up.
On June 10 2012 05:47 s0Lstice wrote: Grush, the best way to defend yourself is to hunt scum. Spend your time doing that, not wasting all of your time responding to Release.
Should that go in the Mafia QT?
But if he does turn out to be scum, we shouldn't be giving him advice. That's what the post game is for.
That post was useless. Don't give information to the enemy? Wow, never thought of that.
Solstice clearly didn't think of that.
Another sarcastic remark? What happened to answering those questions? Why aren't you hunting scum? Why haven't you provided any analysis?
On June 10 2012 04:54 s0Lstice wrote: Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.
Now I want to talk about ha236
Let's look at his post on grush and LazerMonkey.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
Then you talk about LaserMonkey..
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
##FoS: ha236
To check if this really is Grush's first game is a tremendous waste of time. There are far too many game to check. (i believe we have 55 regular mafias and 15 newb ones.) To me it looks like he is trying to buddy up to grush but i can't be sure of that. I agree; playing the noob card as reasoning is too much assumptions.
It looks more like the two quoted posts are strange (and putting words in grush's mouth) but the agreement is that grush has been wishy-washy.
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
How is checking me if that was a noob mistake or not a tremendous amount of time?
On June 10 2012 05:47 s0Lstice wrote: Grush, the best way to defend yourself is to hunt scum. Spend your time doing that, not wasting all of your time responding to Release.
Should that go in the Mafia QT?
But if he does turn out to be scum, we shouldn't be giving him advice. That's what the post game is for.
That post was useless. Don't give information to the enemy? Wow, never thought of that.
Solstice clearly didn't think of that.
Another sarcastic remark? What happened to answering those questions? Why aren't you hunting scum? Why haven't you provided any analysis?
On June 10 2012 06:16 ShiaoPi wrote: Oh wow, thread got really active while I was cheering on the Germans.
What I would suggest right now is to stop tunneling grush for the time and add some pressure to ha236. I am still waiting for answers regarding my question and his post is basically the statement that he is ready to jump on grush if he gets to be the primary lynch candidate.
Not saying that I am clearing grush from the suspicions but he cannot contribute that much if he keeps defending, give him some leeway until we really have to consolidate on a lynch and see what he can cook up.
he hasn't been defending though. He's been posting filler all day long, apparently without any of his own opinions. He has had plenty of time to cook something up. But he hasn't. That's why, i will continue to question his actions.
On ha236, i have pressured him some (on his post and solstice's post on his post). He is suspicious, but as of now, Grush is far more so.
On June 10 2012 06:42 grush57 wrote: I'm not even going to bother with you anymore. I don't think you are scum though, a bit bold for scum. Hyaa and the one lurker left for scum team!
Avoiding answering my questions again. That's the spirit!
[QUOTE]On June 10 2012 04:43 Lazermonkey wrote: [QUOTE]On June 10 2012 04:35 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey seems to make his own conclusions about grush, without it being the truth, as ha236 stated. His latest comments about the "i wouln't be suprised" quote is strange. Grush simply said that the scum might be among the ones that had not posted, but you just jumped to the conclusion that he meant that everyone that had posted was his townread.
You also jumped to conclusion when grush wrote: [QUOTE]On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours [/QUOTE]So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk. [QUOTE][B]
Where you assumed his stance was changed on lurkers. I think he only wanted to state a reason for people not posting.
I agree that grush seemed scummy, but don't try to come up with conclusion that are not true.[/QUOTE] Did you even read my answer to ha236? I feel like I have already answered all of your questions... [/QUOTE]
Did you read my post? I merely posted my opinion on you, i didn't post ask question. But it is good that you answered my imaginary questions.
On June 10 2012 06:42 grush57 wrote: I'm not even going to bother with you anymore. I don't think you are scum though, a bit bold for scum. Hyaa and the one lurker left for scum team!
Why do you continue to just deflect attention from you onto the lurkers? I know I advocated to stop tunneling you but it is getting annoying, just post something useful for town.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
Because, like you said, I didn't care enough to check it, why would I want to defend anyone this early in the game. Since this is a noob game I assume noob mistakes will be made.
Then you talk about LaserMonkey.. On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
Show nested quote +
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
Show nested quote +
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
Obviously I meant that I disagreed with many of the points he made while agreeing on the big picture "issue".
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I feel like you're that implying starting the bandwagon (coming up with a argument that other people seem plausible) is a bad thing. If so, what's the meaning of talking at all?
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I feel like you're that implying starting the bandwagon (coming up with a argument that other people seem plausible) is a bad thing. If so, what's the meaning of talking at all?
I misread, didn't see "avoid" in your post, for some reason. So I'll instead ask why you don't think I am.
On June 10 2012 06:16 ShiaoPi wrote: Oh wow, thread got really active while I was cheering on the Germans.
What I would suggest right now is to stop tunneling grush for the time and add some pressure to ha236. I am still waiting for answers regarding my question and his post is basically the statement that he is ready to jump on grush if he gets to be the primary lynch candidate.
Not saying that I am clearing grush from the suspicions but he cannot contribute that much if he keeps defending, give him some leeway until we really have to consolidate on a lynch and see what he can cook up.
I do not know which question you are reffering to as there is no questionmark in your previous post in reponse to my post. Just out of curiousity, why do you want to "add some pressure" to me?
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I feel like you're that implying starting the bandwagon (coming up with a argument that other people seem plausible) is a bad thing. If so, what's the meaning of talking at all?
No. I'm not saying that starting the bandwagon is a bad thing. If i did, i would be praising you, which i obviously wasn't. Actually, how do my words translate to the bolded phrase? I'm saying that you are leaving yourself open to either lynch or not lynch grush and use either part of the post to support your actions.
Ok, i didn't refresh, so now i respond to the post you just made:
Grush is the person with the question mark over his head (more like a red and white target board w/e) but you seem perfectly content to let him live on the basis that he is making noob mistakes. This is where you can defend yourself for not voting grush.
However, you send some light criticism his way, just in case you do want to vote for him.
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I feel like you're that implying starting the bandwagon (coming up with a argument that other people seem plausible) is a bad thing. If so, what's the meaning of talking at all?
No. I'm not saying that starting the bandwagon is a bad thing. If i did, i would be praising you, which i obviously wasn't. Actually, how do my words translate to the bolded phrase? I'm saying that you are leaving yourself open to either lynch or not lynch grush and use either part of the post to support your actions.
Scum team is Grush and Ha236. This game is over.
And you're saying that throwing out an opinion is better than waiting some and collecting more information as the game goes along is a bad thing? What's the point in posting more then once if your opinions on the first post are all that matter?
I don't like your style, your posts are worded in a way where the ignorant or weakhearted get the impression that you have all the answers and everyone should base their opinions on yours.
I'm being transparent. Go analyze my posts if you disagree. You are starting to look more like grush.
And you're saying that throwing out an opinion is better than waiting some and collecting more information as the game goes along is a bad thing tell me where i said that.
I'm saying that you are leaving yourself open to either lynch or not lynch grush and use either part of the post to support your actions.
You criticize my post for not being extremely tilted to one side, whether he is "scummy" or not. Since I did not have such an opinion I posted what I posted. You would rather I posted none of my thoughts? Because I thought mafia was about sharing your opinions and trying to work towards finding out who is who.
On June 10 2012 08:27 ha236 wrote: And you're saying that throwing out an opinion is better than waiting some and collecting more information as the game goes along is a bad thing? What's the point in posting more then once if your opinions on the first post are all that matter?
Sorry guys, I don't even understand my own post. It's supposed to say:
"And you're saying that throwing out an opinion of what your stance is on the matter at the time of post is worse than posting at all before you've made up your mind? Doing this would earn you the lurker-stamp instantly. What's the point in posting more then once if your opinions on the first post are all that matter?"
sharing your opinions is fine, even if that opinion is "i'm not sure on him yet."
You however did a play by play of Lazermonkey....kicking it off with how you felt his posts looked strange, continued to build a sort-of case?, and then agreed with his findings.
Your thoughts are a problem because they contradict themselves. I'm pretty much convinced that you are the perfect candidate for us to lynch D1.
sharing your opinions is fine, even if that opinion is "i'm not sure on him yet."
You however did a play by play of Lazermonkey....kicking it off with how you felt his posts looked strange, continued to build a sort-of case?, and then agreed with his findings.
Your thoughts are a problem because they contradict themselves. I'm pretty much convinced that you are the perfect candidate for us to lynch D1.
##Vote:ha236
They do not contradict one another seeing as they are focusing on different parts of his post. Maybe opening up with that his statements look strange wasn't the smoothest move, I can see that, but I think you understand what I meant and I stand by my opinion.
Furthermore what you described makes perfect sense. I kicked it off by saying his posts are strange, then make a sort-of case and finish with agreeing (in your eyes). Translate it to numbers and say strange:1 sort-of:1,5 and agreeing: 2, the average of that is 1,5 (sort-of), which is what my read says and also what my stance is.
The only thing in his filter that raises my eyebrows is the 'nothing to talk about' post. The rest is neutral mostly, because it's OMGUS tit for tat defense against Release.
I want to see what he does when he doesn't spend every free minute defending himself.
sharing your opinions is fine, even if that opinion is "i'm not sure on him yet."
You however did a play by play of Lazermonkey....kicking it off with how you felt his posts looked strange, continued to build a sort-of case?, and then agreed with his findings.
Your thoughts are a problem because they contradict themselves. I'm pretty much convinced that you are the perfect candidate for us to lynch D1.
##Vote:ha236
His posts were strange, but the idea behind them was agreeable. Grush was being very wishy-washy.
Do you really think ha236 is a better case than grush? Ha looks like a solid day 2 candidate. By all means pressure him, but keep in mind that this is a extended majority vote.
On June 10 2012 09:03 s0Lstice wrote: Now as far as grush is concerned...
The only thing in his filter that raises my eyebrows is the 'nothing to talk about' post. The rest is neutral mostly, because it's OMGUS tit for tat defense against Release.
I want to see what he does when he doesn't spend every free minute defending himself.
he's not defending himself. He writes very generic townie shit and calls it a defense. He self claims that his sarcastic response is his defense (the claim might be sarcastic, who knows what he believes is actually the truth). He provides zero analysis, discourages discussion, claims that there is little to talk about after we have done a lot of talking.
He has plenty of time to defend himself.
According to you, he is OMGUSing, which does not even require reading the thread, so there is a contradiction with the bold phrase.
I think ha236 is a better candidate. That one post flashed red big time. Lots of words that started on one end of the opinion spectrum and ended on the other. Trying to appear useful, but really the conclusion is errr I dunno.
I will be pushing his lynch, but I will not do so at the expense of the majority. If I get traction, good. If not, then I will wait on ha236 to insure the day 1 lynch.
On June 10 2012 05:42 s0Lstice wrote: Release, what do you think of my post on ha236?
Lazermonkey, same question.
Do you really think ha236 is a better case than grush? Ha looks like a solid day 2 candidate. By all means pressure him, but keep in mind that this is a extended majority vote.
What's the deal with some of the players only caring about the opinions of a few others? It's kind of cute though.
Do you really think ha236 is a better case than grush? Ha looks like a solid day 2 candidate. By all means pressure him, but keep in mind that this is a extended majority vote.
What's the deal with some of the players only caring about the opinions of a few others? It's kind of cute though.
rofl.
It was his post and thought process i was questioning. Most people haven't even voted yet.
On June 10 2012 09:03 s0Lstice wrote: Now as far as grush is concerned...
The only thing in his filter that raises my eyebrows is the 'nothing to talk about' post. The rest is neutral mostly, because it's OMGUS tit for tat defense against Release.
I want to see what he does when he doesn't spend every free minute defending himself.
he's not defending himself. He writes very generic townie shit and calls it a defense. He self claims that his sarcastic response is his defense (the claim might be sarcastic, who knows what he believes is actually the truth). He provides zero analysis, discourages discussion, claims that there is little to talk about after we have done a lot of talking. He has plenty of time to defend himself.
According to you, he is OMGUSing, which does not even require reading the thread, so there is a contradiction with the bold phrase.
Really? Because it seems like every time I refresh the thread you have a new post going after him. You are pressuring him pretty hard. He feels the need to respond to every single post, with OMGUS or something else mostly useless. I grant this is bad play, as he should have disengaged from you a lot sooner than he did.
The point is the read on him is not strong, as his filter is full of garbage. This can be a scum-tell, yes, but there is also town motivation for his behavior. As town, he is incredulous that you are pursuing him so hard...this explains the sarcasm, the snippy remarks etc. He erroneously feels his best move is to match you hit for hit, and this will help confirm him as a town read.
He's been told to post something that contributes, and what he does will be good information. It will certainly be better than what we have on him now. If it's not, then hell yea let's lynch him.
On June 10 2012 09:03 s0Lstice wrote: Now as far as grush is concerned...
The only thing in his filter that raises my eyebrows is the 'nothing to talk about' post. The rest is neutral mostly, because it's OMGUS tit for tat defense against Release.
I want to see what he does when he doesn't spend every free minute defending himself.
he's not defending himself. He writes very generic townie shit and calls it a defense. He self claims that his sarcastic response is his defense (the claim might be sarcastic, who knows what he believes is actually the truth). He provides zero analysis, discourages discussion, claims that there is little to talk about after we have done a lot of talking. He has plenty of time to defend himself.
According to you, he is OMGUSing, which does not even require reading the thread, so there is a contradiction with the bold phrase.
Really? Because it seems like every time I refresh the thread you have a new post going after him. You are pressuring him pretty hard. He feels the need to respond to every single post, with OMGUS or something else mostly useless. I grant this is bad play, as he should have disengaged from you a lot sooner than he did.
The point is the read on him is not strong, as his filter is full of garbage. This can be a scum-tell, yes, but there is also town motivation for his behavior. As town, he is incredulous that you are pursuing him so hard...this explains the sarcasm, the snippy remarks etc. He erroneously feels his best move is to match you hit for hit, and this will help confirm him as a town read.
He's been told to post something that contributes, and what he does will be good information. It will certainly be better than what we have on him now. If it's not, then hell yea let's lynch him.
I wouldn't be pressuring him so hard if his responses showed an udnerstanding of the thread and the game, but in particular, looked like they took him more than half a minute from scratch to finish.
To be honest, the motivation behind his posts seem to be, more or less, in an effort to spite my attacks on him. You could say that alignment doesn't matter if he just dislikes what i post, but i see a scum motivation; he doesn't want to answer my questions.
Considering the current state of affairs between grush and ha:
I think its good that we've been able to come up with enough analysis to be able to FoS two individuals on the first day.
Grush: His first post, which implied encouragement of less discussion day 1, definitely struck me as something a scum might do. In the ensuing discussion he started OMGUS-ing a little, and met release's scathing cross-examination with responses of his own. I applaud release for FoSing Grush, not because grush may be scum, but because he managed to squeeze out precious information on this first day. This new debate over ha was only possible because release decided to talk. Anyway, after looking over grush's responses and his final "okay im done with this shit" post, he does seem slightly scummy. Considering the lack of useful information he has provided within the span of 30-40ish posts, and my feel over reading his posts, I would place the ballpark of him being scum being around 44-55% (Which is much higher than the average person, 11%)
I really don't know how ha got to be one of the "top" scum reads on this game. His play does not seem scummy at all to me. I think the best d1 lynch is grush, and then we can think about how to proceed once he flips.
I'm assuming you just fucked up your maths here, KtheZ as you even said there is about 11% chance for someone to be scum(which is not true : )). If your are townie yourself that means that there are a 2/8 or 25% chance for someone to be scum if you RNG lynch. So if you have 22-25% scumread on Ha236 it means that he is a null for you or even a slight townread, while my impression is that you got a slight scumread on him as you said that ''he doesn't appear that scummy to me.'' which still DOES imply that he apears scummy enough for you to comment on it, no?
But I'm not really interested in how many percent chance you think it is for him to be scum, rather who you think we should lynch and why. You havn't really said why you think Ha236 looks scummy, only that you think there is a certain possibilty for him to be scum. Also would you be able to lynch into someone like Ha? Or are you only up for a grushlynch atm?
On June 10 2012 04:35 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey seems to make his own conclusions about grush, without it being the truth, as ha236 stated. His latest comments about the "i wouln't be suprised" quote is strange. Grush simply said that the scum might be among the ones that had not posted, but you just jumped to the conclusion that he meant that everyone that had posted was his townread.
You also jumped to conclusion when grush wrote:
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
Where you assumed his stance was changed on lurkers. I think he only wanted to state a reason for people not posting.
I agree that grush seemed scummy, but don't try to come up with conclusion that are not true.
Did you even read my answer to ha236? I feel like I have already answered all of your questions...
Did you read my post? I merely posted my opinion on you, i didn't post ask question. But it is good that you answered my imaginary questions.
The_Zen_Man : I assumed that those were questions. Why would you ever post it otherwise? You say it's your opinion but basically all you had done was copy paste Ha236 concerns on my post. Like LITTERALY the same post. Except your claim your are just opinions. But it still confuses the shit out of me. I had answered all of his questions. You did not include any of these in your post. why? was it: a) You didn't think the answers were good enough b) You didn't read it c) ???
Since I ''make up my own conclusions which aren't true'' to quote you, I'll let you answer the questions this time.
Lazermonkey, in my post i wanted to say that i supported ha236 that you made conclusion on grush that were not true, so it was bound to be similliar. I even said that it was what ha said in my post. Ha had already posed questions to you, but your answers were not very good. in one of your answers you agree that " might have been exaggerating a bit", which is basically saying that you were lying. That is not really a good answer.
Then, with your second answer, you argue about the meaning of grush saying "I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers", which clearly means that he thinks that the mafia might be among the lurkers, not that they are definetly there.
And no, it wasn't "LITTERALY" the same post, because if it had been that it would be one and the same.
On June 10 2012 18:13 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey, in my post i wanted to say that i supported ha236 that you made conclusion on grush that were not true, so it was bound to be similliar. I even said that it was what ha said in my post. Ha had already posed questions to you, but your answers were not very good. in one of your answers you agree that " might have been exaggerating a bit", which is basically saying that you were lying. That is not really a good answer.
Then, with your second answer, you argue about the meaning of grush saying "I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers", which clearly means that he thinks that the mafia might be among the lurkers, not that they are definetly there.
And no, it wasn't "LITTERALY" the same post, because if it had been that it would be one and the same.
The case against The_Zen_Man
So instead of writing ''I agree'', you took the time to write the whole case again? Not only is this useless and waste of time, it's also the way scum would play. You make it look like you post stuff of actuall value when it's in fact crap. You said my answers weren't very good. How am I suposed to know that? Because the concern here must lie in that you were unsatisfied with my answers, otherwise why would you post it in the first place? Yes I said I " might have been exaggerating a bit" but you are taking it completly out of context. I don't think you read my post very carefully if you said that. You make it look like I confessed that I lied. If you read the post this is clearly not what I did.
You give 100% the exact answer that ha236 did once again here, regarding "I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers". I have already said what I think about this but still you don't inculde it in your post. Why is this? did you not like this answer either? am I suposed to ''assume this''?
I don't get you ZenMan. You tunnel me like no tomorrow. But your cases are all crap. Either they are exact copies of Ha236 or they are over exaggerations and/or lies. None of that is good for town.
You think grush is scummy, but you don't add thought behind that at all. You also put soft defense for him all over the place, but is very clear with that you still think he is scummy. You even say we should lynch him and ''then we can think about how to proceed once he flips.''. Bandwagon much?
You don't think Ha236 looks scummy at all. You don't give any reasons at all for this. Still he havn't taken any clear stances anywhere? You don't think this is scummy? Is there a possibilty of you two being scumbros prehaps?
Tbh you just fucking broke my scummo-o-meter. You don't write cases, at beast you copy them from Ha236, at worst you say things without a singel reference or post to back it up. You try(intentional or not) to pull the action away from both grush and Ha236 by posting crazy cases on me. I am willing to lynch grush or Ha236 if that is the only alternative but right now my suspicion on The_Zen_Man is tenfold my suspicion on those two combined.
First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own.
On June 10 2012 18:13 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey, in my post i wanted to say that i supported ha236 that you made conclusion on grush that were not true, so it was bound to be similliar. I even said that it was what ha said in my post. Ha had already posed questions to you, but your answers were not very good. in one of your answers you agree that " might have been exaggerating a bit", which is basically saying that you were lying. That is not really a good answer.
Then, with your second answer, you argue about the meaning of grush saying "I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers", which clearly means that he thinks that the mafia might be among the lurkers, not that they are definetly there.
And no, it wasn't "LITTERALY" the same post, because if it had been that it would be one and the same.
The case against The_Zen_Man
So instead of writing ''I agree'', you took the time to write the whole case again? Not only is this useless and waste of time, it's also the way scum would play. You make it look like you post stuff of actuall value when it's in fact crap. You said my answers weren't very good. How am I suposed to know that? Because the concern here must lie in that you were unsatisfied with my answers, otherwise why would you post it in the first place? Yes I said I " might have been exaggerating a bit" but you are taking it completly out of context. I don't think you read my post very carefully if you said that. You make it look like I confessed that I lied. If you read the post this is clearly not what I did.
You give 100% the exact answer that ha236 did once again here, regarding "I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers". I have already said what I think about this but still you don't inculde it in your post. Why is this? did you not like this answer either? am I suposed to ''assume this''?
I don't get you ZenMan. You tunnel me like no tomorrow. But your cases are all crap. Either they are exact copies of Ha236 or they are over exaggerations and/or lies. None of that is good for town.
You think grush is scummy, but you don't add thought behind that at all. You also put soft defense for him all over the place, but is very clear with that you still think he is scummy. You even say we should lynch him and ''then we can think about how to proceed once he flips.''. Bandwagon much?
You don't think Ha236 looks scummy at all. You don't give any reasons at all for this. Still he havn't taken any clear stances anywhere? You don't think this is scummy? Is there a possibilty of you two being scumbros prehaps?
Tbh you just fucking broke my scummo-o-meter. You don't write cases, at beast you copy them from Ha236, at worst you say things without a singel reference or post to back it up. You try(intentional or not) to pull the action away from both grush and Ha236 by posting crazy cases on me. I am willing to lynch grush or Ha236 if that is the only alternative but right now my suspicion on The_Zen_Man is tenfold my suspicion on those two combined.
##Vote: The_Zen_Man
Now i would like to talk about your vote. First you say that i should have just written "i agree" in my post, which is what I basically did, I just referred to Ha236 post. But you seemed to think that i wrote this as my own post, which i did not.
Then you later on say that i "tunnel" you, after i have just posted about 2 posts about you. Once again you exaggerate a lot. This is a typical scum play, to make small things seem very big, so that they can build on a case that is not really there.
You go on to say that i put "sof defense" for grush. Where have i done this? This seems like a scum move also, fabricating facts that do not exists. I have stated my opinion on grush before.
What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
After i posted some more on Lazermonkey where i was suspicous of his post on Grush, he immediatly voted on me to turn the attention to me. This can be a scum move, as they can start to panic and direct the attention elsewhere
Lazermonkey later goes on by saying that i pull the action away from grush, but that i am trying to start a bandwagon on him. This is contradictory. Why would i pull the action away from him if i wanted to bandwagon him?
I am not going to vote for you because that would be to sink to your level. I prefer to stay calm instead of just voting for the other person, but you did rise on my scum reads.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own.
That's cool for me.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: Now i would like to talk about your vote. First you say that i should have just written "i agree" in my post, which is what I basically did, I just referred to Ha236 post. But you seemed to think that i wrote this as my own post, which i did not.
Yes, that's what you should've done in this case. Can you mention even one thing in this post that isn't already in ha236s post?
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:Then you later on say that i "tunnel" you, after i have just posted about 2 posts about you. Once again you exaggerate a lot. This is a typical scum play, to make small things seem very big, so that they can build on a case that is not really there.
I don't think it's an exaggeration. You've made 7 posts so far(not counting the /in-post). 1 is about how you missquoted 1 is about how you think Ha236 is not scum(but this is a crap post as you basically only says that). 1 is your introction post 4 is about me So basically you have two useless posts, 4 about me and one that is not. So 80% of your posts of substance is about me.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:You go on to say that i put "sof defense" for grush. Where have i done this? This seems like a scum move also, fabricating facts that do not exists. I have stated my opinion on grush before. ##Fos: Lazermonkey
First you told Release to ease the pressure on grush. Then you also accused my case against grush of being bad. You are also one of the few people that havn't yet put any pressure on grush. This is ''soft defense'' in my eyes. You havn't said you don't think he is scum but if he flips green then you will be among those who looks least guilty.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: After i posted some more on Lazermonkey where i was suspicous of his post on Grush, he immediatly voted on me to turn the attention to me. This can be a scum move, as they can start to panic and direct the attention elsewhere
Lolwat. This is like the opposite of what I did. Your first posts was insanly strange and with lack of logic. Yet I didn't post a case on you. It was only after you had posted no more than 3 posts against me, all filled with crap that I wrote the actual case.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey later goes on by saying that i pull the action away from grush, but that i am trying to start a bandwagon on him. This is contradictory. Why would i pull the action away from him if i wanted to bandwagon him?
I don't know, that is for you to decide as you are the scum : ). I can think of plenty of alternatives. This also adds up to my point about your indecisiveness of grush. You pull the action away from him, doesn't push him at all yet you say we should lynch him without giving any alternatives?
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: I am not going to vote for you because that would be to sink to your level. I prefer to stay calm instead of just voting for the other person, but you did rise on my scum reads.
##Fos: Lazermonkey
Why so scared of voting me? Why would I write this case if you were a townie? Either admitt your very flawed logic or you should belive that I am scum. You did neither. And you even said earlier in the post that my play was much like scum play and also you thought there was a chance for me and s0Lstice to be scumbros. And yet you don't vote me...
I have answered all you questions. You however failed to answer one of mine. Why do you not think Ha236 looks scummy?
I opened this thread with the expectation of everyone pointing his finger at me for lurking so heavily the first half of day 1, for which I apologize now.
I have had a REALLY shit day yesterday, and I didn't have any motivation whatsoever to get into the internet. I am not very willing to specify what happened yesterday since this is still the internet, I'll just mention that it involved me driving. Now that it's Sunday, I can lean back a bit, gonna have quite some shit going on from tomorrow on, but I feel that I can keep contributing to this game in spite of the circumstances, but don't expect me to be online whenever you are.
Oh, and you should also know where I'm located to know the times I'm posting at: Austria/CET.
Time to start Top-down:
Like I already mentioned, I expected everyone to suspect me cause of policy lynching. Surprisingly, that's not the case. The policy talk quickly resulted into Release squeezing grush like a lemon throughout the game, but grush results to be a pretty dry one, just releasing unjuicy drops which only help to fortify the suspicions against him.
Frankly I think Release has a really aggressive playstyle reminding me of my own last game, it's a great way to gain transparent information from other people and to a lesser extent from the accused ones, but also involves risks of all kind.
The subsequent posts regaridng this case all revolve around the initial posts as tells. My verdict is: Release looks like he's tunneling pretty hard with the aggressive style, on the other hand I have to give him credit for getting out so much information from this case, town really IS busy due to this. Grush, well, if he's town I would be able to understand his somewhat angry, resignated answers as follow-up. If he's scum I would also be able to understand his high amount of one-liners with the least possible amount of information. However, his first posts really weren't helpful to town, so I'll treat him as suspicious, but not definitely guilty. I feel it's too early for me to cast a vote on him, he kind of reminds me of + Show Spoiler +
superouman
last game, but less lurking. If he's the only alternative to a No lynch, you'll have my vote nontheless.
I'm going to post more very soon, I'd prefer to keep my posts focused on single cases since I have to post a lot at once.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
Okay, I've been doing a stance analysis on the grush case and here's my promised post:
s0lstice prefers to go on with policy discussion in the first posts and goes on with it until he outs for the night. When he's back, he completely drops grush and the policy discussion and puts his FoS on ha2etc.
Release thinks grush is guilty. Pretty much everyone agreed on grushs post about 'nothing to discuss' being a really bad suggestion for town play. Many dropped the case or defended grush in spite of this.
KtheZ notices the overconfidence of Release against grush and points out the danger of tunneling. But he also believes grush to have made scummy moves. I find his semi-calculations pretty strange tbh, but I guess it's his way of FoSing.
ShiaoPi has one post in which he says people should stop tunneling grush and instead pressure ha2etc. . What strikes me here is that he wants to pressure ha2etc. for actually defending grush. I find this to be contradictory.
Lazermonkey notices grush's suspicious posts and focuses on the people defending him in consequence after placing his FoS on grush.
ha2etc. soft-defends grush.
The_Zen_Man soft-defends grush.
I'm keeping my summary of the swedes in this thread rather short cause there are complex cases developing around them and I think these deserve an in-depth analysis before a summary.
On June 10 2012 16:23 KtheZ wrote: ha: I've looked through his posts and, besides a soft defense of grush, he doesn't appear that scummy to me.
Personal risk analysis: chance ha is mafia: 22-25% chance ha is mafia given grush flips:44-55%
All of these percentages are based on "as of now"
K, we all know ha is mafia and that post pretty much tells who the scum team is. Besides defending a suspicious player and being very suspicious, he isn't scummy to me. Random ass numbers. He isn't making a bold move and a clear opinion on things. Very scummy. As town you have to stick to your guns like Release.That's why Release is my only 100% town read. Also, all the people somewhat defending me right now are town as well, as I know I'm town. The mafia are going to push me as I'm the most suspicious and somewhat defending Ha like KtheZ is.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, that's not really what I meant. I find it odd that The_Zen_Man is able to say that the case against you were weak, without a singel motivation even though there are people willing to lynch into you for that.
On June 10 2012 16:23 KtheZ wrote: ha: I've looked through his posts and, besides a soft defense of grush, he doesn't appear that scummy to me.
Personal risk analysis: chance ha is mafia: 22-25% chance ha is mafia given grush flips:44-55%
All of these percentages are based on "as of now"
K, we all know ha is mafia and that post pretty much tells who the scum team is. Besides defending a suspicious player and being very suspicious, he isn't scummy to me. Random ass numbers. He isn't making a bold move and a clear opinion on things. Very scummy. As town you have to stick to your guns like Release.That's why Release is my only 100% town read. Also, all the people somewhat defending me right now are town as well, as I know I'm town. The mafia are going to push me as I'm the most suspicious and somewhat defending Ha like KtheZ is.
Very bad logic here. If scum smell that a lynch is going your way they could easily put up defense in favor of you. Then if we still misslynch you(assuming you are town now...) they gain town cred for defending you. Also this post contain contradiction. You say Release is 100% town read for you but also that scum would push you because you look suspicous. Release have been the one pushing you hardest this far. How can you have 100% townread on him then?
On June 10 2012 16:23 KtheZ wrote: ha: I've looked through his posts and, besides a soft defense of grush, he doesn't appear that scummy to me.
Personal risk analysis: chance ha is mafia: 22-25% chance ha is mafia given grush flips:44-55%
All of these percentages are based on "as of now"
K, we all know ha is mafia and that post pretty much tells who the scum team is. Besides defending a suspicious player and being very suspicious, he isn't scummy to me. Random ass numbers. He isn't making a bold move and a clear opinion on things. Very scummy. As town you have to stick to your guns like Release.That's why Release is my only 100% town read. Also, all the people somewhat defending me right now are town as well, as I know I'm town. The mafia are going to push me as I'm the most suspicious and somewhat defending Ha like KtheZ is.
On June 10 2012 16:23 KtheZ wrote: ha: I've looked through his posts and, besides a soft defense of grush, he doesn't appear that scummy to me.
Personal risk analysis: chance ha is mafia: 22-25% chance ha is mafia given grush flips:44-55%
All of these percentages are based on "as of now"
K, we all know ha is mafia and that post pretty much tells who the scum team is. Besides defending a suspicious player and being very suspicious, he isn't scummy to me. Random ass numbers. He isn't making a bold move and a clear opinion on things. Very scummy. As town you have to stick to your guns like Release.That's why Release is my only 100% town read. Also, all the people somewhat defending me right now are town as well, as I know I'm town. The mafia are going to push me as I'm the most suspicious and somewhat defending Ha like KtheZ is.
Very bad logic here. If scum smell that a lynch is going your way they could easily put up defense in favor of you. Then if we still misslynch you(assuming you are town now...) they gain town cred for defending you. Also this post contain contradiction. You say Release is 100% town read for you but also that scum would push you because you look suspicous. Release have been the one pushing you hardest this far. How can you have 100% townread on him then?
Because he is actually bold and knows how to play town. Town makes mistakes too.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, it's because you said what Lazermonkey said was strange, and then agreed with him.
Are you claiming that he is or isn't scum in the second bold? You said earlier that there is not enough information was now you say "way [too] simple to lynch him..." So the reasoning is obvious, therefore you don't want to lynch him?
I like to use numbers because it indicates the degree of suspicion i currently have toward specific persons. I think its much more useful to town if they know my current standings toward people in a numeric form, and can convince me otherwise.
As for Grush:
I think this is the first time you have finally made an accusation up front, that ha is obviously mafia. It strikes me as awkward that you would attack someone who soft defended you. Enough about you, lets talk about me!
Why would you not advocate me providing more information to town: that is, my current suspicions in numeric form and my thoughts. Looking at my suspicion percentages, I am following my policy to NOT TUNNEL. I'm not sure who is mafia, and my percentages reflect that. I'm keeping an open mind.
You really need to stop OMGUS-ing anyone who suspects you. All I said there is a probable chance that you're mafia.
P.S. "Besides defending a suspicious player and being very suspicious, he isn't scummy to me." What the heck? If someone is suspicious they are scummy. This is another contradiction in your post.
Please don't call me KenMan again, i don't like it. And as to my FOS, i didn't want to just childishly vote for him when he posted against me (which Lazermonkey did), but rather see what other people think.
So now that it is time to decide who to lynch, we should think about whose lynch will provide the most information.
The current FoS/Lynch votes have been directed to:
grush<---- Release(voted), me ha<------- s0lstice The_zen_man<-------- Lazermonkey(FoS) Lazermonkey<---------- The_Zen_man(FoS) Or something like this.
To me, the most probable first day lynch will be grush or ha. (zen man and lazermonkey have been trading blows with one another, but we havent paid attention to that all that much)
What info will lynching grush provide us? grush's stance toward: ha: Thinks he is mafia, but was soft defended by ha. Release: reads town on release, was the individual to put grush into spotlight KtheZ: Suspicious because he didn't notice how ha is "obviously" mafia s0Lstice: He seems positively inclined toward s0Lstice Vivax: Thinks he is mafia, because he was lurker (does position change now that hes posting?)
Note:No noted opinions on others
What info will lynching ha provide us? grush:soft defended by ha KtheZ: unconvinced ha is mafia s0Lstice: FoSed/Voted ha ShiaoPi: Advocated pushing ha for more info Note: I haven't seen many of ha's own opinions on others, just him defending hiimself. No noted opinions on others.
ShiaoPi, you should post some more! I'm curious to hear your position on things!
On June 11 2012 03:51 KtheZ wrote: So now that it is time to decide who to lynch, we should think about whose lynch will provide the most information.
The current FoS/Lynch votes have been directed to:
grush<---- Release(voted), me ha<------- s0lstice The_zen_man<-------- Lazermonkey(FoS) Lazermonkey<---------- The_Zen_man(FoS) Or something like this.
To me, the most probable first day lynch will be grush or ha. (zen man and lazermonkey have been trading blows with one another, but we havent paid attention to that all that much)
First off, I voted The_Zen_Man, he FoSed me.
Why havn't you paid attention to my case on The_Zen_Man? Unless I'm misstaken it's about 4 hours untill deadline. This is more than enough time for us to get 5 on this scum also known as The_Zen_Man.
We lynch to kill scum. Period. Factoring in what information our target will give to decide our lynch candidate is ludicrous. You suggesting it is scummy.
People have already talked about your percentage nonsense, so I won't rehash beyond saying that it paints you in a very bad light. If you are aiming to get lynched, keep doing it. We want words, not numbers.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, it's because you said what Lazermonkey said was strange, and then agreed with him.
Are you claiming that he is or isn't scum in the second bold? You said earlier that there is not enough information was now you say "way [too] simple to lynch him..." So the reasoning is obvious, therefore you don't want to lynch him?
Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?
Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.
About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.
Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis. Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.
On June 11 2012 04:04 s0Lstice wrote: KtheZ is rocketing up the scum charts.
We lynch to kill scum. Period. Factoring in what information our target will give to decide our lynch candidate is ludicrous. You suggesting it is scummy.
People have already talked about your percentage nonsense, so I won't rehash beyond saying that it paints you in a very bad light. If you are aiming to get lynched, keep doing it. We want words, not numbers.
I am definitely lynching to kill scum. Lynching to kill scum and factoring what information can be netted are not mutually exclusive; I was listing what information we would gain based on who we lynched. I agree that I phrased that poorly. What I meant was that given the lynch, look at what information we gain. I did not intend for the factoring in of information to be a vote-changer.
I don't understand what is wrong with this "percentage nonsense". If supplemented with analysis it provides a snapshot of my current views on people, which I feel provides more information to town. However, if people think it is anti-town, I will stop.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, it's because you said what Lazermonkey said was strange, and then agreed with him.
Are you claiming that he is or isn't scum in the second bold? You said earlier that there is not enough information was now you say "way [too] simple to lynch him..." So the reasoning is obvious, therefore you don't want to lynch him?
Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?
Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.
About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.
Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis. Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.
haven't read the whole post but i'm going to clarify something right now:
On June 10 2012 04:54 s0Lstice wrote: Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.
Now I want to talk about ha236
Let's look at his post on grush and LazerMonkey.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
Then you talk about LaserMonkey..
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
##FoS: ha236
To check if this really is Grush's first game is a tremendous waste of time. There are far too many game to check. (i believe we have 55 regular mafias and 15 newb ones.) To me it looks like he is trying to buddy up to grush but i can't be sure of that. I agree; playing the noob card as reasoning is too much assumptions.
It looks more like the two quoted posts are strange (and putting words in grush's mouth) but the agreement is that grush has been wishy-washy.
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I'm the one who is agreeing with your post on monkey. I was bringing up the general reason why there was suspicion behind you in the first place.
And thanks for voting for solstice.
##unvote: Grush ##vote: ha236
For now, solstice has been quite helpful. Your voting for him because he was the first person to cast suspicion on you is rather silly. if anyone, you probably should have voted for me.
So right now, we have not too much time untill lynching. We need to get something done here. With nine players there are 5(Lol) players that have received FoS/Votes unless I'm misstaken. These players are: grush Ha236 me(Lazermonkey) The_Zen_Man s0Lstice s0Lstice were also suspicious of KtheZ recently, although no FoS were placed.
We need to know who are willing to vote for who, even if they are not your n1 scumread if we are going to get a decent lynch tonight.
Right now my main scumread is The_Zen_Man but I am also willing to lynch grush. Ha236 has imo given quite solid response to the accusations against him and I'm not very keen on lynching him anymore. I am not sure about either s0lstice and KtheZ yet tho, as their cases were very recently posted.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, it's because you said what Lazermonkey said was strange, and then agreed with him.
Are you claiming that he is or isn't scum in the second bold? You said earlier that there is not enough information was now you say "way [too] simple to lynch him..." So the reasoning is obvious, therefore you don't want to lynch him?
Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?
Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.
About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.
Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis. Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.
This isn't an essay. Often there will only be one big scum-tell post, a smoking gun if you will, off which to build the case. Your first post was mostly fluff, where you attack a player for a bad read, pick that read apart, and then agree with the read. You can get mad all you want, but it was a contradiction.
That said, I don't see your one post on Lazermonkey as the only thing counting against you. We are hours from the deadline, and all you've done of note is defend grush, and accuse the people accusing you.
Lazermonkey, if you only count FOS and VOTES, (i think you should just read the posts to find out suspicion), i'll add a fos: shiaopi too cause he's been lurking pretty hard.
On June 11 2012 04:04 s0Lstice wrote: KtheZ is rocketing up the scum charts.
We lynch to kill scum. Period. Factoring in what information our target will give to decide our lynch candidate is ludicrous. You suggesting it is scummy.
People have already talked about your percentage nonsense, so I won't rehash beyond saying that it paints you in a very bad light. If you are aiming to get lynched, keep doing it. We want words, not numbers.
I am definitely lynching to kill scum. Lynching to kill scum and factoring what information can be netted are not mutually exclusive; I was listing what information we would gain based on who we lynched. I agree that I phrased that poorly. What I meant was that given the lynch, look at what information we gain. I did not intend for the factoring in of information to be a vote-changer.
I don't understand what is wrong with this "percentage nonsense". If supplemented with analysis it provides a snapshot of my current views on people, which I feel provides more information to town. However, if people think it is anti-town, I will stop.
The time to talk about information gained from a lynch is after the lynch. Posting it now gives off a big 'look at me I'm contributing' vibe, while you are not actually contributing.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, it's because you said what Lazermonkey said was strange, and then agreed with him.
Are you claiming that he is or isn't scum in the second bold? You said earlier that there is not enough information was now you say "way [too] simple to lynch him..." So the reasoning is obvious, therefore you don't want to lynch him?
Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?
Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.
About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.
Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis. Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.
haven't read the whole post but i'm going to clarify something right now:
On June 10 2012 04:54 s0Lstice wrote: Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.
Now I want to talk about ha236
Let's look at his post on grush and LazerMonkey.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
Then you talk about LaserMonkey..
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
##FoS: ha236
To check if this really is Grush's first game is a tremendous waste of time. There are far too many game to check. (i believe we have 55 regular mafias and 15 newb ones.) To me it looks like he is trying to buddy up to grush but i can't be sure of that. I agree; playing the noob card as reasoning is too much assumptions.
It looks more like the two quoted posts are strange (and putting words in grush's mouth) but the agreement is that grush has been wishy-washy.
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I'm the one who is agreeing with your post on monkey. I was bringing up the general reason why there was suspicion behind you in the first place.
And thanks for voting for solstice.
##unvote: Grush ##vote: ha236
For now, solstice has been quite helpful. Your voting for him because he was the first person to cast suspicion on you is rather silly. if anyone, you probably should have voted for me.
Another show of your ignorance, anyway in the quoted post there is nothing about you agreeing with me on the topic we're talking about, rather on the grush topic.
Of course you think solstice has been helpful, you and him share the same dumb logic. I am aware that s0Lstice was the first to "raise suspicion" about me and I was sure that someone as superficial as you would comment on that instantly, further proving my point that you havn't come up with any real reason as to why I am suspicious.
Up until now my suspicion, based on your dumb logic and lacking reasoning, has been leaning toward solsice, yes, but with this last post I'll have to change my vote to you, as suggested.
On June 11 2012 04:22 KtheZ wrote: EBWOP: To add to the previous statement: Although an explanation of how it is anti-town would be appreciated.
Using percentages leaves you an out. If you say you are 50% on a person and then vote for them, after the fact, you can say 'well I did say that there was a 50% chance that this person is not scum.'
If you want to lynch someone, say so. If you don't want to lynch a person, say that. If you are unsure etc. etc.
Using words to record your opinions leaves a more solid trail to which you can be held accountable.
Well, i have said my opinion on Lazermonkey, but i am still equally suspicous of grush (still don't know why people say i soft defended him), and seeing as the support for him is stronger than Lazermonkey i can vote for him too. But ha236 still does not seem scummy to me, and i would prefer not to lynch him.
On June 11 2012 05:15 The_Zen_Man wrote: Well, i have said my opinion on Lazermonkey, but i am still equally suspicous of grush (still don't know why people say i soft defended him), and seeing as the support for him is stronger than Lazermonkey i can vote for him too. But ha236 still does not seem scummy to me, and i would prefer not to lynch him.
YO ZENMAN! You have still some unanswered questions, remember? I explain why prople think you are soft defending grush, so it might be worth a look ; ). + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: Now i would like to talk about your vote. First you say that i should have just written "i agree" in my post, which is what I basically did, I just referred to Ha236 post. But you seemed to think that i wrote this as my own post, which i did not.
Yes, that's what you should've done in this case. Can you mention even one thing in this post that isn't already in ha236s post?
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:Then you later on say that i "tunnel" you, after i have just posted about 2 posts about you. Once again you exaggerate a lot. This is a typical scum play, to make small things seem very big, so that they can build on a case that is not really there.
I don't think it's an exaggeration. You've made 7 posts so far(not counting the /in-post). 1 is about how you missquoted 1 is about how you think Ha236 is not scum(but this is a crap post as you basically only says that). 1 is your introction post 4 is about me So basically you have two useless posts, 4 about me and one that is not. So 80% of your posts of substance is about me.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:You go on to say that i put "sof defense" for grush. Where have i done this? This seems like a scum move also, fabricating facts that do not exists. I have stated my opinion on grush before. ##Fos: Lazermonkey
First you told Release to ease the pressure on grush. Then you also accused my case against grush of being bad. You are also one of the few people that havn't yet put any pressure on grush. This is ''soft defense'' in my eyes. You havn't said you don't think he is scum but if he flips green then you will be among those who looks least guilty.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: After i posted some more on Lazermonkey where i was suspicous of his post on Grush, he immediatly voted on me to turn the attention to me. This can be a scum move, as they can start to panic and direct the attention elsewhere
Lolwat. This is like the opposite of what I did. Your first posts was insanly strange and with lack of logic. Yet I didn't post a case on you. It was only after you had posted no more than 3 posts against me, all filled with crap that I wrote the actual case.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey later goes on by saying that i pull the action away from grush, but that i am trying to start a bandwagon on him. This is contradictory. Why would i pull the action away from him if i wanted to bandwagon him?
I don't know, that is for you to decide as you are the scum : ). I can think of plenty of alternatives. This also adds up to my point about your indecisiveness of grush. You pull the action away from him, doesn't push him at all yet you say we should lynch him without giving any alternatives?
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: I am not going to vote for you because that would be to sink to your level. I prefer to stay calm instead of just voting for the other person, but you did rise on my scum reads.
##Fos: Lazermonkey
Why so scared of voting me? Why would I write this case if you were a townie? Either admitt your very flawed logic or you should belive that I am scum. You did neither. And you even said earlier in the post that my play was much like scum play and also you thought there was a chance for me and s0Lstice to be scumbros. And yet you don't vote me...
I have answered all you questions. You however failed to answer one of mine. Why do you not think Ha236 looks scummy?
To everyone else: Why have almost noone commented on my case on The_Zen_Man/his case on me so far?
Guys, we're at close danger of a no-lynch. I'm not very satisfied with ha236 as option cause I find his first posts regarding Lazermonkey and Release to be true, but on the other hand he didn't make a single case except for OMGUS ones now in the end and instead only spent time defending grush and himself.
It was a pretty bad day 1 imo, and it can get even worse if we will have to further lurk in the dark, you'll have my vote on ha236 for the sake of the lynch, but be aware of the fact that I'll gladly switch it for any other majority.
##vote ha236
@ s0lstice
odd analysis? To me town play seems to be messed up atm and you should actually thank me for getting a bit of transparency in here. Every single and good player would make such a summary in a case before going on and accusing single persons. I doubt one would want to play with a narrow sight.
Guys, we're at close danger of a no-lynch. I'm not very satisfied with ha236 as option cause I find his first posts regarding Lazermonkey and Release to be true, but on the other hand he didn't make a single case except for OMGUS ones now in the end and instead only spent time defending grush and himself.
It was a pretty bad day 1 imo, and it can get even worse if we will have to further lurk in the dark, you'll have my vote on ha236 for the sake of the lynch, but be aware of the fact that I'll gladly switch it for any other majority.
##vote ha236
@ s0lstice
odd analysis? To me town play seems to be messed up atm and you should actually thank me for getting a bit of transparency in here. Every single and good player would make such a summary in a case before going on and accusing single persons. I doubt one would want to play with a narrow sight.
On June 11 2012 05:15 The_Zen_Man wrote: Well, i have said my opinion on Lazermonkey, but i am still equally suspicous of grush (still don't know why people say i soft defended him), and seeing as the support for him is stronger than Lazermonkey i can vote for him too. But ha236 still does not seem scummy to me, and i would prefer not to lynch him.
YO ZENMAN! You have still some unanswered questions, remember? I explain why prople think you are soft defending grush, so it might be worth a look ; ). + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: Now i would like to talk about your vote. First you say that i should have just written "i agree" in my post, which is what I basically did, I just referred to Ha236 post. But you seemed to think that i wrote this as my own post, which i did not.
Yes, that's what you should've done in this case. Can you mention even one thing in this post that isn't already in ha236s post?
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:Then you later on say that i "tunnel" you, after i have just posted about 2 posts about you. Once again you exaggerate a lot. This is a typical scum play, to make small things seem very big, so that they can build on a case that is not really there.
I don't think it's an exaggeration. You've made 7 posts so far(not counting the /in-post). 1 is about how you missquoted 1 is about how you think Ha236 is not scum(but this is a crap post as you basically only says that). 1 is your introction post 4 is about me So basically you have two useless posts, 4 about me and one that is not. So 80% of your posts of substance is about me.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:You go on to say that i put "sof defense" for grush. Where have i done this? This seems like a scum move also, fabricating facts that do not exists. I have stated my opinion on grush before. ##Fos: Lazermonkey
First you told Release to ease the pressure on grush. Then you also accused my case against grush of being bad. You are also one of the few people that havn't yet put any pressure on grush. This is ''soft defense'' in my eyes. You havn't said you don't think he is scum but if he flips green then you will be among those who looks least guilty.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: After i posted some more on Lazermonkey where i was suspicous of his post on Grush, he immediatly voted on me to turn the attention to me. This can be a scum move, as they can start to panic and direct the attention elsewhere
Lolwat. This is like the opposite of what I did. Your first posts was insanly strange and with lack of logic. Yet I didn't post a case on you. It was only after you had posted no more than 3 posts against me, all filled with crap that I wrote the actual case.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey later goes on by saying that i pull the action away from grush, but that i am trying to start a bandwagon on him. This is contradictory. Why would i pull the action away from him if i wanted to bandwagon him?
I don't know, that is for you to decide as you are the scum : ). I can think of plenty of alternatives. This also adds up to my point about your indecisiveness of grush. You pull the action away from him, doesn't push him at all yet you say we should lynch him without giving any alternatives?
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: I am not going to vote for you because that would be to sink to your level. I prefer to stay calm instead of just voting for the other person, but you did rise on my scum reads.
##Fos: Lazermonkey
Why so scared of voting me? Why would I write this case if you were a townie? Either admitt your very flawed logic or you should belive that I am scum. You did neither. And you even said earlier in the post that my play was much like scum play and also you thought there was a chance for me and s0Lstice to be scumbros. And yet you don't vote me...
I have answered all you questions. You however failed to answer one of mine. Why do you not think Ha236 looks scummy?
To everyone else: Why have almost noone commented on my case on The_Zen_Man/his case on me so far?
First of all, the reason i wanted release to ease the pressure was not to "soft defend" grush, but so that the discussion would not get more out of hand, and someone else say what they think about him. They filled up 5 pages of posts, and in the end of the discussion release himself said that his comment would be useless to anyone but grush, If it has turned out like that, it benefits the case if we get some fresh eyes on the subject.
You then say that i accused your case of being bad. You had a lot of flaws in your post, which we discussed before, and that is why i said it was bad.
I have from the beginning said that i am suspicous of grush, and i am pushing for a lynch of him now.
Guys, we're at close danger of a no-lynch. I'm not very satisfied with ha236 as option cause I find his first posts regarding Lazermonkey and Release to be true, but on the other hand he didn't make a single case except for OMGUS ones now in the end and instead only spent time defending grush and himself.
It was a pretty bad day 1 imo, and it can get even worse if we will have to further lurk in the dark, you'll have my vote on ha236 for the sake of the lynch, but be aware of the fact that I'll gladly switch it for any other majority.
##vote ha236
@ s0lstice
odd analysis? To me town play seems to be messed up atm and you should actually thank me for getting a bit of transparency in here. Every single and good player would make such a summary in a case before going on and accusing single persons. I doubt one would want to play with a narrow sight.
Yea, it is odd. If I want to know what someone thinks of grush, I'll go look at their filter. Your post was a needless summarization. Now you just posted a vote count. This is like textbook 'scum trying to look useful' fodder.
I've seen your town play, and this doesn't look anything like it. Yea, it got you lynched last game, so you may be trying to change it up, but what you've changed to is not an improvement as of yet.
Lazermonkey, I'm gonna comment on your Zen_Man case in a bit.
If it gets to a choice between grush and ha(which it seems to go too) i will choose grush. I do not like ha as a lynch, but grush has seemed much more suspicous to me. If people feel the same, now is the time to vote for him.
On June 11 2012 05:15 The_Zen_Man wrote: Well, i have said my opinion on Lazermonkey, but i am still equally suspicous of grush (still don't know why people say i soft defended him), and seeing as the support for him is stronger than Lazermonkey i can vote for him too. But ha236 still does not seem scummy to me, and i would prefer not to lynch him.
YO ZENMAN! You have still some unanswered questions, remember? I explain why prople think you are soft defending grush, so it might be worth a look ; ). + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: Now i would like to talk about your vote. First you say that i should have just written "i agree" in my post, which is what I basically did, I just referred to Ha236 post. But you seemed to think that i wrote this as my own post, which i did not.
Yes, that's what you should've done in this case. Can you mention even one thing in this post that isn't already in ha236s post?
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:Then you later on say that i "tunnel" you, after i have just posted about 2 posts about you. Once again you exaggerate a lot. This is a typical scum play, to make small things seem very big, so that they can build on a case that is not really there.
I don't think it's an exaggeration. You've made 7 posts so far(not counting the /in-post). 1 is about how you missquoted 1 is about how you think Ha236 is not scum(but this is a crap post as you basically only says that). 1 is your introction post 4 is about me So basically you have two useless posts, 4 about me and one that is not. So 80% of your posts of substance is about me.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote:You go on to say that i put "sof defense" for grush. Where have i done this? This seems like a scum move also, fabricating facts that do not exists. I have stated my opinion on grush before. ##Fos: Lazermonkey
First you told Release to ease the pressure on grush. Then you also accused my case against grush of being bad. You are also one of the few people that havn't yet put any pressure on grush. This is ''soft defense'' in my eyes. You havn't said you don't think he is scum but if he flips green then you will be among those who looks least guilty.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: After i posted some more on Lazermonkey where i was suspicous of his post on Grush, he immediatly voted on me to turn the attention to me. This can be a scum move, as they can start to panic and direct the attention elsewhere
Lolwat. This is like the opposite of what I did. Your first posts was insanly strange and with lack of logic. Yet I didn't post a case on you. It was only after you had posted no more than 3 posts against me, all filled with crap that I wrote the actual case.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: Lazermonkey later goes on by saying that i pull the action away from grush, but that i am trying to start a bandwagon on him. This is contradictory. Why would i pull the action away from him if i wanted to bandwagon him?
I don't know, that is for you to decide as you are the scum : ). I can think of plenty of alternatives. This also adds up to my point about your indecisiveness of grush. You pull the action away from him, doesn't push him at all yet you say we should lynch him without giving any alternatives?
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: I am not going to vote for you because that would be to sink to your level. I prefer to stay calm instead of just voting for the other person, but you did rise on my scum reads.
##Fos: Lazermonkey
Why so scared of voting me? Why would I write this case if you were a townie? Either admitt your very flawed logic or you should belive that I am scum. You did neither. And you even said earlier in the post that my play was much like scum play and also you thought there was a chance for me and s0Lstice to be scumbros. And yet you don't vote me...
I have answered all you questions. You however failed to answer one of mine. Why do you not think Ha236 looks scummy?
To everyone else: Why have almost noone commented on my case on The_Zen_Man/his case on me so far?
First of all, the reason i wanted release to ease the pressure was not to "soft defend" grush, but so that the discussion would not get more out of hand, and someone else say what they think about him. They filled up 5 pages of posts, and in the end of the discussion release himself said that his comment would be useless to anyone but grush, If it has turned out like that, it benefits the case if we get some fresh eyes on the subject.
You then say that i accused your case of being bad. You had a lot of flaws in your post, which we discussed before, and that is why i said it was bad.
I have from the beginning said that i am suspicous of grush, and i am pushing for a lynch of him now.
I don't care about your intentions here. You told him to ease the pressure on grush. You never said anything about grush but that you thought he looked scummy. You didn't bring the case even one centimeter further. You also said my case against grush was bad. Thus you soft defended him.
So you first say you think grush looks suspicious, without saying why. Then you post one hellofacase on me. You then decide to vote grush anyway. Lol? And you still haven't said why you think he is scummy. Just that he is...
On June 11 2012 05:45 The_Zen_Man wrote: If it gets to a choice between grush and ha(which it seems to go too) i will choose grush. I do not like ha as a lynch, but grush has seemed much more suspicous to me. If people feel the same, now is the time to vote for him.
I am sorry for my absence, blame my fixation on the EURO 2012 and Qualifiers for the International 2 (dota 2)...
Read through the posts until now and I am happy to see that you guys pressured ha236, his responses seems to have been accusations of so-called "dumb logic" and some OMGUS votes thrown around. The more he squirmed under pressure the more he seemed to be scummy.
Should be easy to consolidate on a lynch on ha236 now:
##Vote: ha236
@Lazermonkey: I would consider looking at them more thoroughly on day1 if we had a chance to consolidate a lynch on one of you, but since it is (most likely) going to be between grush and ha236, it is for now better to off one of them instead of dividing our votes and maybe even make it into a no-lynch
Needless summarization? That is the type of summarization a good townie uses to get an idea of the connections someone had once he flips. If grush gets lynched, you can look up my summary and check the connections between grush and other players. Just cause you don't see the use doesn't mean it doesn't have any.
Btw, I can prove you are being selective since I didn't see you pick on the following summary yet. I just wonder if you are being selective on purpose cause raising suspicion on me would further increase the chance of a No lynch or if it's by mistake. While working on Lazermonkeys case against The_Zen_Man i found another 'needless summarization':
On June 11 2012 04:47 Lazermonkey wrote: So right now, we have not too much time untill lynching. We need to get something done here. With nine players there are 5(Lol) players that have received FoS/Votes unless I'm misstaken. These players are: grush Ha236 me(Lazermonkey) The_Zen_Man s0Lstice s0Lstice were also suspicious of KtheZ recently, although no FoS were placed.
Regarding The_Zen_Man case:
I especially liked LazerMans point regarding the contradiction between the FoS on him, but the vote on grush. It looks like The_Zen_Man doesn't believe much in his own case. We also have to consider that The_Zen_Man mostly used ha236 points already posted to soft-defend grush. That would allow scum to deflect attention to ha236 again in case gursh flips green.
That's about the latest points made by Lazermonkey, now to my own analysis, I'll be especially focusing on The_Zen_Man's first posts:
On June 09 2012 18:11 The_Zen_Man wrote: Hey guys, just woke up(time difference suck).
1:I have read some of the grush-release discussion, and i can say that i did found Grush comment weird. Also some of his later post is also strange. I will post a analysis on him later.
2:But release, you are going against him to hard. You said it yourself before, that your comment is useless to anyone but grush. If it's like that, you should let others give their opinions about him, and focus on someone else for a bit.
3:Also, as to my opinions on lynching, i agree that in case there is a hard lurker and no scum reads we should lynch the lurker, as he is not contributing anyways. But lynching with not much information (like d1) will probably result in a misslynch. We still gain information even is there is no lynch, by observing how players act before lynch, what they vote for, reaction after lynch, etc.
1. Here's the broken promise: We still have no analysis on grush from you. In a lynch all liars environment you would already be in huge trouble.
2. Without the analysis, you proceed to soft-defend him. The problem about your posts is the way you do that: You tell Release to focus on someone else. Imagine if he suddenly switched target like you propose, that would make him look quite inconsistent...and scummy.
3. The opinions on lynching. I mean, seriously? This part confuses the hell out of me. We should lynch lurkers, but on the other hand you say it will probably result in a mislynch. Then you actually say that we might gain information without a lynch. How is that so? Both points lack reasoning behind them and contradict the other points in your post. Your opinion on lynching policy is wishy washy and no opinion, you seem to promote everything at once.
The next posts show your support of ha, always disproving points others make against grush, but at the same time you emphasize your beliefs that he looks scummy.
On June 10 2012 17:35 The_Zen_Man wrote: I really don't know how ha got to be one of the "top" scum reads on this game. His play does not seem scummy at all to me. I think the best d1 lynch is grush, and then we can think about how to proceed once he flips.
Once ha gets into the crosshair, all of sudden you think it's best to drop all your defenses of grush and to lynch him.
When Lazermonkey actually notices your suspicious behavior:
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: The case against Lazermonkey:
First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own.
I think this quotation of mine reminds that he does have a point about that. You took many of the points about grushs defense from ha236, allowing you to deflect responsibility in case they turn out to be wrong.
Looking at your and ha2's posts, your stances are soft and inconsistent as opposed to his, so I'll let you know: If there's a choice between a majority on you and a majority on ha2, I will pick the one against you.
Since ha cannot vote for himself, a lynch for today would take either: grush and shiaopi voting for ha or someone switching their vote to ha. or: A lot of vote-switching Obvious things aside,
Although I am not convinced ha is scum, if it comes down to a no-lynch I will switch my vote to ha. I have read his posts and s0Lstice/Release's arguments and have concluded that he is a reasonable second to grush.
I have now read through Lazermonkey's posts about Zen_Man. After seeing Zen_Man's wishy-washy voting (voting grush without analysis, and his attempts to reduce the cross-examination of grush) I am suspicious enough to at least FoS him. FoS: The_Zen_Man
He is taking a firm stance on grush by voting for him, and has been consistent with his views on him as I see it. He does not provide any reasoning behind his suspicions, true. He really should have. That said, the reasons for grush's scummyness have been discussed quite a lot, and agreeing with them (parroting/bandwagoning) by itself is not dead red scummy. If he agrees, he agrees. As far as his exaggerations, I feel this is under the OMGUS umbrella as well. The bottom line is I see fledgling efforts to hunt scum, and I want to see more. As of right now, he wouldn't draw my vote.
On June 11 2012 06:24 s0Lstice wrote: Alright so the case on Zen_Man
He is taking a firm stance on grush by voting for him, and has been consistent with his views on him as I see it. He does not provide any reasoning behind his suspicions, true. He really should have. That said, the reasons for grush's scummyness have been discussed quite a lot, and agreeing with them (parroting/bandwagoning) by itself is not dead red scummy. If he agrees, he agrees. As far as his exaggerations, I feel this is under the OMGUS umbrella as well. The bottom line is I see fledgling efforts to hunt scum, and I want to see more. As of right now, he wouldn't draw my vote.
s0Lstice are you sure? I noticed a small inconsistency in that he "defended" grush by trying to get Release to lay off him. Then, he ends up voting for grush without much significant analysis.
On June 11 2012 06:23 grush57 wrote: Yea if Ha flips red then it is either Zen man or KtheZ.
Grush, you've already been attacked numerous times for your short posts without explications of your thought processes.
Can you for once post something that is based on something visible? It would be nice if we knew the connection you see between Ha2, Zen and KtheZ. Don't forget you're still on the towns' list for your 'bad habits', whether knowingly or not. Right now someone could attack this statement of yours and you could post ANYTHING to justify it. You're intransparent. And I'd lynch you over ha2 anytime, just so you know.
So far we have me voting for The_Zen_Man. Vivax says he is wiling to lynch him if there is a possibility. Kthez placed FoS at him saying that he wasn't sure if he thinks Zen is scum or not. On the other hand he says he isn't sure on Ha236 either. I take this as he is willing to swap his vote. I guess Ha236 would also be willing to swap his vote. Thus there are already 4 persons willing to lynch him. Only s0lstice says that he is opposing to a Zen_Man lynch. So I'd say it's still possible as we only need to convince one more out of the three who is yet to decide what they think.
Oh well guys, looks like I'm done for. When you realize you've made the wrong decision consider my posts about Release and s0Lstice and their flawed logic trying to trick you all.
I think we still have one hour to change things, if anyone got a good case it would be best to pull it out NOW. Vote switches in the last 30 minutes might end badly for town.
@Vivax: My intention to stop the pressure from grush was under the assumptions that he might then proceed to actually post something worthwhile with his time freed from defending himself. Sadly not the case here, but he is so discredited it won't take too much effort to lynch him should the need arise again. The case on ha236 rests differently. He begins kind of okayish for a townie with some remakrs by me and other around his post under the resulting pressure his play continues to detoriate so I would say that he is a okay lynch for day1.
On June 11 2012 06:51 ha236 wrote: Oh well guys, looks like I'm done for. When you realize you've made the wrong decision consider my posts about Release and s0Lstice and their flawed logic trying to trick you all.
Nice defeatist attitude there.
The Zen man looks like scum. Vivax made nice analysis of that. I'll keep my vote on ha for the time being but if we need majority, i'll be willing to vote zen.
If either of zen or ha don't turn out to be scum, we can lynch grush. Grush is so easy to lynch, i don't think we need to worry about him at this moment.
We do have an hour or so. I'm not loving my vote on ha236 anymore. If we want to vote for Zen_Man I will switch.
Something that has been bugging me about ha236 is that he has been constant in his defense of Grush, he even doubled down. I find it difficult to believe that a scum ha236 would attract attention by tying himself to one of the most controversial people in the thread. He could have just as easily went after a grush57 lynch, it would have been easy.
Very few other people have agreed with me on him as well. I think it would be prudent to go elsewhere.
If either of zen or ha don't turn out to be scum, we can lynch grush. Grush is so easy to lynch, i don't think we need to worry about him at this moment.
It's funny how Release is not the least bit concerned about being lynched himself. I've posted several remarks on his play and gotten no substansial answers, rather he tries to mislead others on to bandwagoning Grush and I.
If either of zen or ha don't turn out to be scum, we can lynch grush. Grush is so easy to lynch, i don't think we need to worry about him at this moment.
It's funny how Release is not the least bit concerned about being lynched himself. I've posted several remarks on his play and gotten no substansial answers, rather he tries to mislead others on to bandwagoning Grush and I.
Maybe call me stupid for doing this but his play is incredibly similar to the last game I played with him, in which he was town, and as long as he does not give me cause for doubt I'll be sticking with a "townie-metaread" on him.
Seems like people are going to change their vote for me. I dont really know where all of this suddenly comes from. I know i haven't posted a analysis on grush, but this whole thing with Lazermonkey has taken all my time. I planned to do it, but have just had less time for this than i had hoped.
When i flip town, please go after Lazermonkey
Lazermonkey have tunneled me for a long time now, and is for some reason dead set on lynching me. I think he is trying to get a mislynch for mafia, and when i flip town he will go like "Oh, damn. Well it's not my fault, he sounded really scummy to me." This will give mafia a free kill without putting their member Lazermonkey at risk.
I feel like this is the only majority we have a good shot at getting. I went through Zen_Man's filter again in light of Vivax' post...I definitely see the parroting, bandwagoning, and vote on Grush without explanation, as I said before. These could be scum tells, but I'm still not totally convinced. I wanted to see more, but I don't think that luxury exists at present.
What I'm certain of is I want a day 1 lynch, and I don't think I was right on ha236.
On June 11 2012 07:35 The_Zen_Man wrote: Seems like people are going to change their vote for me. I dont really know where all of this suddenly comes from. I know i haven't posted a analysis on grush, but this whole thing with Lazermonkey has taken all my time. I planned to do it, but have just had less time for this than i had hoped.
When i flip town, please go after Lazermonkey
Lazermonkey have tunneled me for a long time now, and is for some reason dead set on lynching me. I think he is trying to get a mislynch for mafia, and when i flip town he will go like "Oh, damn. Well it's not my fault, he sounded really scummy to me." This will give mafia a free kill without putting their member Lazermonkey at risk.
Not really convincing as defense. You are simply saying: "You guys got the wrong guy, believe me!" If we are faced with a looming no-lynch, I'll switch.
If either of zen or ha don't turn out to be scum, we can lynch grush. Grush is so easy to lynch, i don't think we need to worry about him at this moment.
It's funny how Release is not the least bit concerned about being lynched himself. I've posted several remarks on his play and gotten no substansial answers, rather he tries to mislead others on to bandwagoning Grush and I.
I'm not sure what to think of 'When i flip town, please go after Lazermonkey'. But your post still doesn't give us any information of use, which is scummy. You have this only chance to defend yourself, and you throw it away with such a post that implies 'I am town' with the least revelation of information.
Leaping over barrels and fruit stands, The_Zen_Man was exhausted both physically and mentally. He expected long chases and arduous escapes, but from the Sand monsters, not his blasted allies! Hot on his heels was a crowd of angry guards, ready to execute him without a second thought.
"Blasted Liquidians, how could they see me as an enemy? After I go out of my way to try and help them, they stab me in the back." Sliding into a backway alley, The_Zen_Man spotted a rope ladder hanging from a nearby building and, with no options left, hastily hurried onto the rooftop.
"Finally, a chance to catch my breath", sighed The_Zen_Man.
A loud thud signaled that this was not the case. There stood grush57, wielding a giant hammer. "Time to answer for your crimes, scum!" he shouted, thwacking The_Zen_Man off the building and into the bloodthirsty crowd.
A few bloody minutes later, the mob backed off, only to see a pool of blue blood forming underneath The_Zen_Man's corpse. An assortment of potions and documents had also fallen out of his packets during the frenzy. With the bloodthirst subsiding, the crowd reflected in horror what they had just partaken in.
The_Zen_Man; Farah, Princess of India (town medic) was mobbed!
I might have given you the benefit of doubt. Also we could have lynched somebody else and take some chances with you. Even if you die n1, it is better than getting mislynched day 1 >_>
On June 11 2012 08:06 The_Zen_Man wrote: Well, i said what i wanted in my latest post. Btw, the image is from assasin's creed not prince of persia. Nice theme though, loved the 3 first games.
EchelonTee will be doing proper flavour/picture at some point. I just went on the fly, so come back to the post for proper flavour at some point
Geeze I leave for a while and somehow we have managed to bandwagon crazily within the span of 30 minutes. What the hell? What happened to the original game plan of lynching ha?
I promised some more contribution, so here are some of my thoughts regarding the entirety of day 1:
First off, sucks that we lynched our medic, but shit happens. Let's take a alook at the entire voteswitch-process. In the end we had 5 votes on Zen_man: Vivax, solstice, lazermonkey, ha236, grush57 Rest was distributed as following: grush57: Zen_man, kthez, ha236: ShiaoPi ShiaoPi: Release
As we mislynched I believe it to be plausible to first take a look at the people who voted Zen_man.
Vivax: One of the driving forces behind the lynch, made a good case against him and said he will switch if possible --> No need to doubt him for now.
S0lstice: He had been mainly focused on ha236 and then proceeded to switch on Zen_man after more pressure was applied. As he said the following:
On June 10 2012 09:12 s0Lstice wrote: I think ha236 is a better candidate. That one post flashed red big time. Lots of words that started on one end of the opinion spectrum and ended on the other. Trying to appear useful, but really the conclusion is errr I dunno.
I will be pushing his lynch, but I will not do so at the expense of the majority. If I get traction, good. If not, then I will wait on ha236 to insure the day 1 lynch.
One could raise some eyebrows as at the moment solstice unvotes there was actually the majority on ha236 (correct me if I am wrong through). But overall he did a pretty good job on day 1 in regards to scumhunt, so does not stand out as of now.
Lazermonkey: First one to really apply pressure on Zen_man and make a case against him, entirely consistent in his stance. Also first to put down his vote on him. Nothing here as well.
ha236: Switches in order to ensure majority on zen_man to dodge the lynch himself. Before he switched onto Zen he just went with some OMGUS votes on Releae and solstice and his general play does not give a very townie vibe of him. I am more than willing to off him come Day 2.
grush57: He looks really bad to be honest, I hoped he would have cooked something up by now as the pressure shifted to ha236 and then to Zen, but he still delivers simple one-liners, no outlining of his thought-process make his posts at the beginning even more suspicious than they were before. Switches without much reasoning. Also a good candidate to lynch come the next day.
Now on another note I would like to alert you guys to KtheZ: -His filter is in the beginning really full of moderating, contentless posts. -He had that weird "lynch for info" post -What struck me as weird is that he states to be willing to switch to ha236 but he is absent at lynchtime, so he would not have been able to fulfill that intention anyway.... His last post is about 30 mins before deadline and then he pops back in well beyond deadline, saying he was "away for a while"
It is still not enough to make me want to vote him but, I'll be keeping an eye on him FoS:KtheZ
On June 11 2012 07:08 s0Lstice wrote: We do have an hour or so. I'm not loving my vote on ha236 anymore If we want to vote for Zen_Man I will switch.
Something that has been bugging me about ha236 is that he has been constant in his defense of Grush, he even doubled down. I find it difficult to believe that a scum ha236 would attract attention by tying himself to one of the most controversial people in the thread. He could have just as easily went after a grush57 lynch, it would have been easy.
Very few other people have agreed with me on him as well. I think it would be prudent to go elsewhere.
## Unvote
"ha is my scumbuddy. Zen_man looks equally scummy, but is town so i'll be ready to bandwagon him"
You know why ha236 can defend Grush so easily without having fear of lynch? Because we were never going to vote grush anyways. Grush is controversial, but he is so openly controversial. In otherwords, he's been acting like a jackass. You do something like what ha236 has done and attention begins to go away (my fight with grush was basically over with the conclusion that he didn't want to answer my questions.).
4 people agreed with you on ha236 (including you, it would have been a majority). Myself, grush, vivax, and shiaopi. Somehow, none of us caught this the first time but i almost did + Show Spoiler +
not
catch it this time.
Elsewhere? Just say Zen_man
The unvote is pretty much solidifying what you have said in the first line, which i think is pretty much claiming scum.
I'll be going through his filter to provide some more info just before day post.
If i'm alive, i'll handle matters as i please, but if i die, you will+ Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2012 06:44 ShiaoPi wrote: I promised some more contribution, so here are some of my thoughts regarding the entirety of day 1:
First off, sucks that we lynched our medic, but shit happens. Let's take a alook at the entire voteswitch-process. In the end we had 5 votes on Zen_man: Vivax, solstice, lazermonkey, ha236, grush57 Rest was distributed as following: grush57: Zen_man, kthez, ha236: ShiaoPi ShiaoPi: Release
As we mislynched I believe it to be plausible to first take a look at the people who voted Zen_man.
Vivax: One of the driving forces behind the lynch, made a good case against him and said he will switch if possible --> No need to doubt him for now.
S0lstice: He had been mainly focused on ha236 and then proceeded to switch on Zen_man after more pressure was applied. As he said the following:
On June 10 2012 09:12 s0Lstice wrote: I think ha236 is a better candidate. That one post flashed red big time. Lots of words that started on one end of the opinion spectrum and ended on the other. Trying to appear useful, but really the conclusion is errr I dunno.
I will be pushing his lynch, but I will not do so at the expense of the majority. If I get traction, good. If not, then I will wait on ha236 to insure the day 1 lynch.
One could raise some eyebrows as at the moment solstice unvotes there was actually the majority on ha236 (correct me if I am wrong through). But overall he did a pretty good job on day 1 in regards to scumhunt, so does not stand out as of now.
Lazermonkey: First one to really apply pressure on Zen_man and make a case against him, entirely consistent in his stance. Also first to put down his vote on him. Nothing here as well.
ha236: Switches in order to ensure majority on zen_man to dodge the lynch himself. Before he switched onto Zen he just went with some OMGUS votes on Releae and solstice and his general play does not give a very townie vibe of him. I am more than willing to off him come Day 2.
grush57: He looks really bad to be honest, I hoped he would have cooked something up by now as the pressure shifted to ha236 and then to Zen, but he still delivers simple one-liners, no outlining of his thought-process make his posts at the beginning even more suspicious than they were before. Switches without much reasoning. Also a good candidate to lynch come the next day.
Now on another note I would like to alert you guys to KtheZ: -His filter is in the beginning really full of moderating, contentless posts. -He had that weird "lynch for info" post -What struck me as weird is that he states to be willing to switch to ha236 but he is absent at lynchtime, so he would not have been able to fulfill that intention anyway.... His last post is about 30 mins before deadline and then he pops back in well beyond deadline, saying he was "away for a while"
It is still not enough to make me want to vote him but, I'll be keeping an eye on him FoS:KtheZ
To address what struck you as weird: I was originally willing to switch my vote to ha if there was a no-lynch potentially in sight. However, when I left there were 5 votes on ha, which was enough majority to create a ha lynch.
On June 12 2012 06:44 ShiaoPi wrote: I promised some more contribution, so here are some of my thoughts regarding the entirety of day 1:
First off, sucks that we lynched our medic, but shit happens. Let's take a alook at the entire voteswitch-process. In the end we had 5 votes on Zen_man: Vivax, solstice, lazermonkey, ha236, grush57 Rest was distributed as following: grush57: Zen_man, kthez, ha236: ShiaoPi ShiaoPi: Release
As we mislynched I believe it to be plausible to first take a look at the people who voted Zen_man.
Vivax: One of the driving forces behind the lynch, made a good case against him and said he will switch if possible --> No need to doubt him for now.
S0lstice: He had been mainly focused on ha236 and then proceeded to switch on Zen_man after more pressure was applied. As he said the following:
On June 10 2012 09:12 s0Lstice wrote: I think ha236 is a better candidate. That one post flashed red big time. Lots of words that started on one end of the opinion spectrum and ended on the other. Trying to appear useful, but really the conclusion is errr I dunno.
I will be pushing his lynch, but I will not do so at the expense of the majority. If I get traction, good. If not, then I will wait on ha236 to insure the day 1 lynch.
One could raise some eyebrows as at the moment solstice unvotes there was actually the majority on ha236 (correct me if I am wrong through). But overall he did a pretty good job on day 1 in regards to scumhunt, so does not stand out as of now.
Lazermonkey: First one to really apply pressure on Zen_man and make a case against him, entirely consistent in his stance. Also first to put down his vote on him. Nothing here as well.
ha236: Switches in order to ensure majority on zen_man to dodge the lynch himself. Before he switched onto Zen he just went with some OMGUS votes on Releae and solstice and his general play does not give a very townie vibe of him. I am more than willing to off him come Day 2.
grush57: He looks really bad to be honest, I hoped he would have cooked something up by now as the pressure shifted to ha236 and then to Zen, but he still delivers simple one-liners, no outlining of his thought-process make his posts at the beginning even more suspicious than they were before. Switches without much reasoning. Also a good candidate to lynch come the next day.
Now on another note I would like to alert you guys to KtheZ: -His filter is in the beginning really full of moderating, contentless posts. -He had that weird "lynch for info" post -What struck me as weird is that he states to be willing to switch to ha236 but he is absent at lynchtime, so he would not have been able to fulfill that intention anyway.... His last post is about 30 mins before deadline and then he pops back in well beyond deadline, saying he was "away for a while"
It is still not enough to make me want to vote him but, I'll be keeping an eye on him FoS:KtheZ
To address what struck you as weird: I was originally willing to switch my vote to ha if there was a no-lynch potentially in sight. However, when I left there were 5 votes on ha, which was enough majority to create a ha lynch.
On June 09 2012 11:08 s0Lstice wrote: If everyone played with that logic, the thread would be empty forever.
People not talking is something to talk about, obviously.
What do you think of my comments on tunneling?
I think a townie would ask more open ended questions such as "on tunneling" rather than "my comments ..."
He avoids the tunneling subjecty more or less but wants to get some posts going about other posts 9not the content really...
On June 09 2012 12:28 s0Lstice wrote: Lynching all liars is dicey. In a newb game I'm betting any lies we find will be unintentional. If you are referring to a blue claim, there will be plenty of context to interpret it if/when it happens. There is no need for a policy application there, just reasoning.
Lynching lurkers is still risky, but the chance of hitting scum is definitely there. As I said, the stakes are high, as every mislynch is painful. If the lurker in question flips green, then at least we have rid ourselves of a useless townie. This is why I still advocate it. People who are talking give us content to work with, and in the absence of a compelling case, we could do a lot worse than lynching a crappy townie/maybe get lucky hitting scum.
That said, it's a worst case scenario. The onus is on us to smoke out the scum so we don't have to resort to the policy lynch.
Policy lynches suck ballz, especially in smaller games. He's kind of hinting that we should be open minded to a policy lynch. Only useful part is find scum, but everyone knows that anyways.
On June 09 2012 12:50 s0Lstice wrote: I'm out for the night.
There has been some stuff said on policy. People who haven't posted yet should post their thoughts on what was discussed. I want to be done with this policy stuff sooner rather than later.
Also, I want to hear what others think of Release and grush.
My opinion is that Grush's comment on having nothing to talk about was weird as hell. Release has done the talking here so I won't repeat. Grush, I will be watching to see what you do when there's more content to work with.
This is like going to the school yard and saying "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" b/w two townies. hopefully, the rest of town ends up supporting me and lynching grush, you and i get credit for the lynch and you are above suspicion. Trying to buddy up as far as i can tell, and a little bit to check if there will be some sort of wagon.
On June 10 2012 04:54 s0Lstice wrote: Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
##FoS: ha236
trying to appear useful by pointing out a scum trait and revealing it to us all about your scumbuddy. But when we realize that only the posts are weird, the idea is fine, and there is no contradiction (opposite ending), he gets vindicated.
On June 10 2012 04:56 s0Lstice wrote: Also Vivax, I've seen your town play, and lurking is not it. Your silence is extra suspicious.
meta gaming is shit in mafia. No stopping someone who played 1 game to change how they play, especially based on feedback.
On June 10 2012 08:52 s0Lstice wrote: ha236,
sharing your opinions is fine, even if that opinion is "i'm not sure on him yet."
You however did a play by play of Lazermonkey....kicking it off with how you felt his posts looked strange, continued to build a sort-of case?, and then agreed with his findings.
Your thoughts are a problem because they contradict themselves. I'm pretty much convinced that you are the perfect candidate for us to lynch D1.
##Vote:ha236
you reinforcement from earlier although ti's mostly repeated. This post tells me that a proper townie would probably have done the vote the first time and not bothered with the second post.
On June 10 2012 09:03 s0Lstice wrote: Now as far as grush is concerned...
The only thing in his filter that raises my eyebrows is the 'nothing to talk about' post. The rest is neutral mostly, because it's OMGUS tit for tat defense against Release.
I want to see what he does when he doesn't spend every free minute defending himself.
OMGUS is not neutral. It's a waste of space and scummy. Subtle confusion beign spread about here. And i have pointed out many time that OMGUS doesn't require every free minutes.
On June 10 2012 09:12 s0Lstice wrote: I think ha236 is a better candidate. That one post flashed red big time. Lots of words that started on one end of the opinion spectrum and ended on the other. Trying to appear useful, but really the conclusion is errr I dunno.
I will be pushing his lynch, but I will not do so at the expense of the majority. If I get traction, good. If not, then I will wait on ha236 to insure the day 1 lynch.
Let me get ready to excuse myself from voting incase i get good traction
On June 10 2012 09:03 s0Lstice wrote: Now as far as grush is concerned...
The only thing in his filter that raises my eyebrows is the 'nothing to talk about' post. The rest is neutral mostly, because it's OMGUS tit for tat defense against Release.
I want to see what he does when he doesn't spend every free minute defending himself.
he's not defending himself. He writes very generic townie shit and calls it a defense. He self claims that his sarcastic response is his defense (the claim might be sarcastic, who knows what he believes is actually the truth). He provides zero analysis, discourages discussion, claims that there is little to talk about after we have done a lot of talking. He has plenty of time to defend himself.
According to you, he is OMGUSing, which does not even require reading the thread, so there is a contradiction with the bold phrase.
Really? Because it seems like every time I refresh the thread you have a new post going after him. You are pressuring him pretty hard. He feels the need to respond to every single post, with OMGUS or something else mostly useless. I grant this is bad play, as he should have disengaged from you a lot sooner than he did.
The point is the read on him is not strong, as his filter is full of garbage. This can be a scum-tell, yes, but there is also town motivation for his behavior. As town, he is incredulous that you are pursuing him so hard...this explains the sarcasm, the snippy remarks etc. He erroneously feels his best move is to match you hit for hit, and this will help confirm him as a town read.
He's been told to post something that contributes, and what he does will be good information. It will certainly be better than what we have on him now. If it's not, then hell yea let's lynch him.
he has time. Don't know why you take up so much space to write this.
On June 11 2012 04:04 s0Lstice wrote: KtheZ is rocketing up the scum charts.
We lynch to kill scum. Period. Factoring in what information our target will give to decide our lynch candidate is ludicrous. You suggesting it is scummy.
People have already talked about your percentage nonsense, so I won't rehash beyond saying that it paints you in a very bad light. If you are aiming to get lynched, keep doing it. We want words, not numbers.
Kthez is obviously not being too clear. That said, if you flip townie, we should probably consider Kthez, but it's a big if.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, it's because you said what Lazermonkey said was strange, and then agreed with him.
Are you claiming that he is or isn't scum in the second bold? You said earlier that there is not enough information was now you say "way [too] simple to lynch him..." So the reasoning is obvious, therefore you don't want to lynch him?
Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?
Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.
About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.
Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis. Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.
This isn't an essay. Often there will only be one big scum-tell post, a smoking gun if you will, off which to build the case. Your first post was mostly fluff, where you attack a player for a bad read, pick that read apart, and then agree with the read. You can get mad all you want, but it was a contradiction.
That said, I don't see your one post on Lazermonkey as the only thing counting against you. We are hours from the deadline, and all you've done of note is defend grush, and accuse the people accusing you.
Many townies may make seemingly scumtellish posts at least once. Scum make it multiple times. that's why the bold is just going to confuse the town and cause town to start spreading fingers everywhere.
On June 11 2012 06:24 s0Lstice wrote: Alright so the case on Zen_Man
He is taking a firm stance on grush by voting for him, and has been consistent with his views on him as I see it. He does not provide any reasoning behind his suspicions, true. He really should have. That said, the reasons for grush's scummyness have been discussed quite a lot, and agreeing with them (parroting/bandwagoning) by itself is not dead red scummy. If he agrees, he agrees. As far as his exaggerations, I feel this is under the OMGUS umbrella as well. The bottom line is I see fledgling efforts to hunt scum, and I want to see more. As of right now, he wouldn't draw my vote.
he doesn't draw your vote? Why did you immediately unvote after this post and then vote him? Here is a real contradiction.
1) His filter has a lot of garbage. He has 6 posts about nothing but policy. These lead in to 3 posts where he is basically directing traffic. He posts percentages for scum reads, sometimes accompanied with reasoning (grush), other times without reasoning (ha236).
On June 11 2012 03:51 KtheZ wrote: So now that it is time to decide who to lynch, we should think about whose lynch will provide the most information.
The current FoS/Lynch votes have been directed to:
grush<---- Release(voted), me ha<------- s0lstice The_zen_man<-------- Lazermonkey(FoS) Lazermonkey<---------- The_Zen_man(FoS) Or something like this.
To me, the most probable first day lynch will be grush or ha. (zen man and lazermonkey have been trading blows with one another, but we havent paid attention to that all that much)
What info will lynching grush provide us? grush's stance toward: ha: Thinks he is mafia, but was soft defended by ha. Release: reads town on release, was the individual to put grush into spotlight KtheZ: Suspicious because he didn't notice how ha is "obviously" mafia s0Lstice: He seems positively inclined toward s0Lstice Vivax: Thinks he is mafia, because he was lurker (does position change now that hes posting?)
Note:No noted opinions on others
What info will lynching ha provide us? grush:soft defended by ha KtheZ: unconvinced ha is mafia s0Lstice: FoSed/Voted ha ShiaoPi: Advocated pushing ha for more info Note: I haven't seen many of ha's own opinions on others, just him defending hiimself. No noted opinions on others.
ShiaoPi, you should post some more! I'm curious to hear your position on things!
I've talked about this post some already. It's scummy as hell. Here we are bearing down on lynch time, and here he uses all these words to talk about stuff that doesn't matter in the slightest until after we see the flip. I'll say it again, this post screams 'look at me I'm being useful!'
That's the common theme to be grasped here; there is a whole lot of non-contributing contributions in his filter. By itself it could just be bad town play, but keep it in mind as we move forward.
2) Scumhunting. Let's look and see how he has been pursuing the win condition.
His strongest read is against grush57, who is far and away the easiest person to make a token case on for scum. A lot of people were on his ass for his play, and it was very easy to just blend in here. I want to look specifically at KtheZ's suspicions on grush: + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 14:19 KtheZ wrote: Grush: His first post, which implied encouragement of less discussion day 1, definitely struck me as something a scum might do. In the ensuing discussion he started OMGUS-ing a little, and met release's scathing cross-examination with responses of his own. I applaud release for FoSing Grush, not because grush may be scum, but because he managed to squeeze out precious information on this first day. This new debate over ha was only possible because release decided to talk. Anyway, after looking over grush's responses and his final "okay im done with this shit" post, he does seem slightly scummy. Considering the lack of useful information he has provided within the span of 30-40ish posts, and my feel over reading his posts, I would place the ballpark of him being scum being around 44-55% (Which is much higher than the average person, 11%)
First thing I notice is the rambling lack of focus. He play-by-plays and takes the time to compliment Release. The important thing to notice however is his stance. He goes from 'this is a definite scum tell' to 'slighty scummy' to '44-55%' chance of a scum flip. At the end of that sequence do you really have any idea what his stance is? How does slightly scummy translate to a coin-flip scum possibility?
I think this is the first time you have finally made an accusation up front, that ha is obviously mafia. It strikes me as awkward that you would attack someone who soft defended you. Enough about you, lets talk about me!
Extremely soft pressure. The point is poor to boot....attacking someone who has soft defended you means basically nothing. You go after your reads regardless of what their opinion of you is.
Following this he votes, and his vote stays put throughout the mislynch of Zen_Man.
Now let's look at his opinions on another prominent case that was going on: ha236.
On June 10 2012 16:23 KtheZ wrote: ha: I've looked through his posts and, besides a soft defense of grush, he doesn't appear that scummy to me.
Personal risk analysis: chance ha is mafia: 22-25% chance ha is mafia given grush flips:44-55%
All of these percentages are based on "as of now"
On June 11 2012 06:24 KtheZ wrote: Although I am not convinced ha is scum, if it comes down to a no-lynch I will switch my vote to ha. I have read his posts and s0Lstice/Release's arguments and have concluded that he is a reasonable second to grush.
Almost no explanation for his read. He dances around this issue...he doesn't think ha is scummy, but will vote for him to ensure the lynch. Ok, that's fine. He doesn't stop there though. He justifies a vote for ha for an entirely different, opposing reason, by saying my and Release's arguments have swayed him enough for ha to be considered a 'reasonable second to grush.' I have no idea what his actual opinion is after this. Is he voting on one of his town-reads to ensure a lynch, or did the arguments sway him?
The only other thing of note is the bandwagon on The_Zen_Man. But again he doesn't come down hard on the issue, it leaves him 'suspicious enough to at least FoS him.'
The bottom-line is KtheZ has taken the safe route in all of his actions so far. His firmest stance is on grush57, and as I've shown, it really isn't all that firm. He is playing it safe because he doesn't want anything to bite him in the ass later. He doesn't particularly care for hunting scum because he IS scum.
3) One last point, but it's a good one. I want to point out how he behaved following Zen_Man's flip:
On June 11 2012 09:36 KtheZ wrote: Geeze I leave for a while and somehow we have managed to bandwagon crazily within the span of 30 minutes. What the hell? What happened to the original game plan of lynching ha?
There, that post has some fire in it. Notice how out of place it is within the rest of his filter...it just doesn't match. Nowhere else does he really show any venom. This mismatch is a scum-tell. Scum like to come in after a mislynch and upbraid people, they feel it makes them look town. I'll even cite Ver's newbie guide, have a look:
On August 26 2010 13:09 Ver wrote: --snipped It's a common mafia tactic to arrive just after a lynch is final (in this case, 24 minutes later) and start berating everyone and putting suspicion on those who were responsible. Keep in mind that doing so absolves them of any responsibility (they weren't 'around' ).
The case he was talking about was similar to this one. A mild mannered politician like player suddenly showing up after a mislynch and being uncommonly firm, making everyone else feel guilty.
Summary: -Lots of filler and pseudo-contributions in KtheZ's filter -Politician like, inconsistant, scum-hunting. Top scumread is the easiest case in the game -Sudden change in persona following the mislynch
I feel pretty good about this read. Release, I know you are after ha236, but please consider what I said. That goes for everyone else too, let me know what you think.
On June 11 2012 23:52 s0Lstice wrote: This thread is lifeless I'll be sharing something I've been working on closer to the start of day 2, in case I'm deaded shortly after.
Where is it? I looking but don't see it. Don't break a promise.
Pouring over his notes at night, s0Lstice strained over the papers laid out before him. Time was short; he had to figure it all out. What did it all mean?? The runic letters were a mystery to him, yet the fact that the documents had been concealed amongst the body of the martyr, The_Zen_Man, meant that s0Lstice simply could not ignore them.
Taking a swig from his can of ale, s0Lstice sighed and put out his candle for the night. Opening the windows, s0Lstice began to prepare for a restless slumber when he noticed the moonlight's shine illuminate the documents.
"My god! It all makes sense now!! This must have been why he was framed. I must inform everyone else at once!"
Sweeping the documents into his knapsack, s0Lstice turned to exit the hut when he felt a sudden chill creep over him. In the doorway stood a glowing, monstrous beast.
"You've drawn your last breath, nosy one..."
An ear-splitting scream filled the night air. In the morning, all that remained was a horrible mess of bone and blood.
s0Lstice, the Kingdom Guard was eviscerated! Day 2 has begun! You have until Wednesday, Jun 13 11:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) to cast your votes. With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch. 48 hours until sundown.
GG solstice (you kind of have a record for being shot night one twice in a row xD)
In all seriousness, solstice is confirmed town now, so scratch releases case,
We should take a look at the remaining suspects we have right now: ha236, grush57 and KtheZ. after some consideration I would say that we should lynch into on of ha or grush bar something drastic happens. seeing the nighthit on solstice could give some more consideration towards KtheZ, I have the FOS on him anyway.
Regarding our plans for the next lynch I would say go with ha236, as he has some connections with grush, with that Bearing in mind his flip will also give us information regarding grush's alignment. eventually we must also look at KtheZ, but let's hear his defense first, his case is definetly not fully fleshed out yet.
On June 12 2012 09:08 Release wrote: this is disappointing activity levels tbh. Apart from myself and grush early on, the activity level been declining so much.
Well it is "only" the daypost, but still some interest into the NK would be appreciated
Now on another note I would like to alert you guys to KtheZ: -His filter is in the beginning really full of moderating, contentless posts. ( It was more like attempting to start discussion. Without there being content in the beginning I decided to spark discussion and talk about policy.) -He had that weird "lynch for info" post ( This "lynch for info" post was explained already to s0Lstice. The post was meant to explain what useful information would arise, after the lynch. It was not to influence the vote, more to prepare for the future. ) -What struck me as weird is that he states to be willing to switch to ha236 but he is absent at lynchtime, so he would not have been able to fulfill that intention anyway.... His last post is about 30 mins before deadline and then he pops back in well beyond deadline, saying he was "away for a while" ( There were already 5 votes on ha236 (majority) so I felt it was safe to leave.) It is still not enough to make me want to vote him but, I'll be keeping an eye on him FoS:KtheZ
If these answers are insufficient, feel free to point it out and I will do my best to explain my reasoning.
On June 12 2012 07:59 s0Lstice wrote: my case on KtheZ
1) His filter has a lot of garbage. He has 6 posts about nothing but policy. These lead in to 3 posts where he is basically directing traffic. He posts percentages for scum reads, sometimes accompanied with reasoning (grush), other times without reasoning (ha236). My filter is NOT full of garbage, as you seem to insist. A beginning talk about policy was to inspire discussion when there was none. Both my percentage posts were accompanied by reasoning (I provided reasoning when I provided a percentage for ha236).
Then there is this eye-sore: Gee thanks, I put effort into that + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2012 03:51 KtheZ wrote: So now that it is time to decide who to lynch, we should think about whose lynch will provide the most information.
The current FoS/Lynch votes have been directed to:
grush<---- Release(voted), me ha<------- s0lstice The_zen_man<-------- Lazermonkey(FoS) Lazermonkey<---------- The_Zen_man(FoS) Or something like this.
To me, the most probable first day lynch will be grush or ha. (zen man and lazermonkey have been trading blows with one another, but we havent paid attention to that all that much)
What info will lynching grush provide us? grush's stance toward: ha: Thinks he is mafia, but was soft defended by ha. Release: reads town on release, was the individual to put grush into spotlight KtheZ: Suspicious because he didn't notice how ha is "obviously" mafia s0Lstice: He seems positively inclined toward s0Lstice Vivax: Thinks he is mafia, because he was lurker (does position change now that hes posting?)
Note:No noted opinions on others
What info will lynching ha provide us? grush:soft defended by ha KtheZ: unconvinced ha is mafia s0Lstice: FoSed/Voted ha ShiaoPi: Advocated pushing ha for more info Note: I haven't seen many of ha's own opinions on others, just him defending hiimself. No noted opinions on others.
ShiaoPi, you should post some more! I'm curious to hear your position on things!
I've talked about this post some already. It's scummy as hell. Here we are bearing down on lynch time, and here he uses all these words to talk about stuff that doesn't matter in the slightest until after we see the flip. I'll say it again, this post screams 'look at me I'm being useful!' The post was mainly about people's stances toward the two lynch-ees and their stances toward other people. I had expected either grush or ha to get lynched, so creating a post for future use would be useful. That's the common theme to be grasped here; there is a whole lot of non-contributing contributions in his filter. By itself it could just be bad town play, but keep it in mind as we move forward.
2) Scumhunting. Let's look and see how he has been pursuing the win condition.
His strongest read is against grush57, who is far and away the easiest person to make a token case on for scum. A lot of people were on his ass for his play, and it was very easy to just blend in here. I want to look specifically at KtheZ's suspicions on grush: + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 14:19 KtheZ wrote: Grush: His first post, which implied encouragement of less discussion day 1, definitely struck me as something a scum might do. In the ensuing discussion he started OMGUS-ing a little, and met release's scathing cross-examination with responses of his own. I applaud release for FoSing Grush, not because grush may be scum, but because he managed to squeeze out precious information on this first day. This new debate over ha was only possible because release decided to talk. Anyway, after looking over grush's responses and his final "okay im done with this shit" post, he does seem slightly scummy. Considering the lack of useful information he has provided within the span of 30-40ish posts, and my feel over reading his posts, I would place the ballpark of him being scum being around 44-55% (Which is much higher than the average person, 11%)
First thing I notice is the rambling lack of focus. He play-by-plays and takes the time to compliment Release. The important thing to notice however is his stance. He goes from 'this is a definite scum tell' Putting words into my mouth. I said that this may have been something a scum would say. to 'slighty scummy' This is the same stance I took from the beginning: That grush seems slightly scummy. to '44-55%' chance of a scum flip You said percentages were bad! But 44-55% is slightly scummy. At the end of that sequence do you really have any idea what his stance is? How does slightly scummy translate to a coin-flip scum possibility? First off you contradict yourself by first discrediting use of percentages, and then using my own percentages as evidence against me. Slightly scummy IS that percentage scum to me. What kind of percentage would slightly scummy be in your opinion? (Of course, we shouldn't be even talking about percentages because they are "obviously anti-town". Here's more: + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2012 03:35 KtheZ wrote: As for Grush:
I think this is the first time you have finally made an accusation up front, that ha is obviously mafia. It strikes me as awkward that you would attack someone who soft defended you. Enough about you, lets talk about me!
Extremely soft pressure. It wasn't meant to be pressure, explained next The point is poor to boot....attacking someone who has soft defended you means basically nothing. You go after your reads regardless of what their opinion of you is. My main point was not that he was attacking someone who soft defended him. It was that grush finally attacked someone, for the first time in the thread, and I was pointing out that significance. Following this he votes, and his vote stays put throughout the mislynch of Zen_Man. Cause I was gone and had thought the lynch set Now let's look at his opinions on another prominent case that was going on: ha236.
On June 11 2012 06:24 KtheZ wrote: Although I am not convinced ha is scum, if it comes down to a no-lynch I will switch my vote to ha. I have read his posts and s0Lstice/Release's arguments and have concluded that he is a reasonable second to grush.
Almost no explanation for his read. Hardly a read, I pointed him out as an individual to take into note. He dances around this issue...he doesn't think ha is scummy, but will vote for him to ensure the lynch. Ok, that's fine. He doesn't stop there though. He justifies a vote for ha for an entirely different, opposing reason, by saying my and Release's arguments have swayed him enough for ha to be considered a 'reasonable second to grush.' I have no idea what his actual opinion is after this. Is he voting on one of his town-reads to ensure a lynch, or did the arguments sway him? What? Stop making baseless assumptions. How was ha236 one of my town reads? I had readjusted my view of ha based on your arguments, as I said. The only other thing of note is the bandwagon on The_Zen_Man. But again he doesn't come down hard on the issue, it leaves him 'suspicious enough to at least FoS him.' Why is this of note? We had targets that were much more defined so I chose to just FoS him and leave him for later. The bottom-line is KtheZ has taken the safe route in all of his actions so far. His firmest stance is on grush57, and as I've shown, it really isn't all that firm. He is playing it safe because he doesn't want anything to bite him in the ass later. He doesn't particularly care for hunting scum because he IS scum. How have I taken the safe route? I was one of the people to push for a grush lynch, which is definitely scum-hunting. My stance on grush was firm, that he was "slightly scummy", but also the person most likely to be scum in my book. 3) One last point, but it's a good one. I want to point out how he behaved following Zen_Man's flip:
On June 11 2012 09:36 KtheZ wrote: Geeze I leave for a while and somehow we have managed to bandwagon crazily within the span of 30 minutes. What the hell? What happened to the original game plan of lynching ha?
There, that post has some fire in it. Notice how out of place it is within the rest of his filter...it just doesn't match. Nowhere else does he really show any venom. This mismatch is a scum-tell. Scum like to come in after a mislynch and upbraid people, they feel it makes them look town. I'll even cite Ver's newbie guide, have a look:
On August 26 2010 13:09 Ver wrote: --snipped It's a common mafia tactic to arrive just after a lynch is final (in this case, 24 minutes later) and start berating everyone and putting suspicion on those who were responsible. Keep in mind that doing so absolves them of any responsibility (they weren't 'around' ).
The case he was talking about was similar to this one. A mild mannered politician like player suddenly showing up after a mislynch and being uncommonly firm, making everyone else feel guilty. I leave for a while and somehow I return to a completely changed lynch vote? Of course I would be indignant! As you saw in my lynch info post I had no idea that a Zen_Man lynch would occur, and people just suddenly bandwagoning on him and mislynching near the deadline struck a nerve. Summary: -Lots of filler and pseudo-contributions in KtheZ's filter -Politician like, inconsistant, scum-hunting. Top scumread is the easiest case in the game -Sudden change in persona following the mislynch Explained I feel pretty good about this read. Release, I know you are after ha236, but please consider what I said. That goes for everyone else too, let me know what you think.
Still waiting for Release to make a defense for any of my posts back at the end of day 1. There's just been mindless blabber in his posts on the night, he openly declines to answer my questions and no one else seems to give a damn? Seems strange to me.
##vote: ha236 Don't even try to claim this as suspicious. I don't know why solstice switched day 1, but i know why i claimed you were still scum. Shiaopi, vivax, grush, and townies, feel free to join me.
On June 12 2012 12:09 ha236 wrote: Still waiting for Release to make a defense for any of my posts back at the end of day 1. There's just been mindless blabber in his posts on the night, he openly declines to answer my questions and no one else seems to give a damn? Seems strange to me.
Think hard about that "mindless blabber" and you know what he was trying to do, or go read his filter in his last game and it should be obvious. If you are trying to make a case against Release, you better post a good one and not some tidbits between each line how "flawed" his logic is.
On June 12 2012 13:56 Release wrote: It's so strange right?
##vote: ha236 Don't even try to claim this as suspicious. I don't know why solstice switched day 1, but i know why i claimed you were still scum. Shiaopi, vivax, grush, and townies, feel free to join me.
So Vivax, grush and me are not in the townie group? O_o
@KtheZ: At least you make an effort of defending yourself, but unfortunately you are still not convincing me. Your posts still lack content and as solstice pointed out nicely you went with the flow of the thread. Furthermore I can understand that RL keeps you from being around at lynchtime, but seeing 5 votes on ha is not really an excuse to not be there if you offer your vote to switch if needed.
What's up with the agression at Ha236? Seriously, I don't get you guys still have him as your top scumread. While I agree with that he may not be the person I have the strongest townread on atm I think there are people looking much more scummy, will post more on this later. As far as I understand there are two things that makes you think he is scum.
1). His indecisiveness in the early game. I don't agree so much with you on this point. His early post about me he clearly said he thought my opinion on grush was strange but he agreed with my statement about lurkers. This is not a contradiction which some of you seem to think. I think that his opinions on grush were wish-washy and not very precise to begin with but he later on gave some good explanations on his thoughts. Overall I think that he should've stated this reasons from the start rather than being so unsure but I don't see this a scumtell. 2). His vote against s0lstice and Release. While I think his behavior here is quite odd and I certainly don't see it as a town move, I don't see it as a scum move either. Neither s0lstice nor Release were ever close to getting lynched. I see this as a way for him to respond to the massive critique from s0lstice. s0lstice had basically tunneled Ha hard at that point. And his main argument and reason for his suspicion was his post on me. I can understand that Ha got frustrated that s0lstice tried to make a case out of something that wasn't there and also ignored his explainations.
To ha236: With this being said, you are nowhere close to a strong townread for me. You have almost have no reads up untill this point, one of the few being s0lstice who were in fact town. You need to stop defending yourself and instead post your own reads. If you get lynched and flip town, and all you ever did was to OMGUS everyone that accused you then we are in a tough spot.
Sucks that s0lstice got lynched, he was one of the few active posters here. With people being lazy it's even easier for mafia to choose the active ones to get killed first. GG and thanks for the activity yo.
Let's get back to the real stuff, I think we have a good clue of the direction to move into:
I don't read ha2 scum yet, but I find his silence since the mislynch and the nightkill to be strange. And by silence I mean absence of good townie play. He's still a suspect who needs a decisive defense, and he didn't make any cases outside of OMGUS ones. Need people to come out and play, that's why you signed in for...if you are townie
Same goes for grush, since the attention switched away from him he decided to go on holidays. Still no proper townie work there, just short posts with short resumes. Wtf:
On June 12 2012 09:25 grush57 wrote: Damn, they killed one of my town reads. Well, I'm fine with ha or KtheZ.
You are asking for a lynch here, scum or not. Now he's suddenly one of your town reads, nice that you tell us once he's dead, everyone could say what you said. But even better, you don't post a single reason for you thinking that ha or KTheZ should be good lynch candidates, you are implying that others should do the work for you, and you even announce yourself for a jump on a bandwagon against these two. That's either a scumslip or really really bad townie play.
KTheZ shows activity when he has to. But like with the latter two, I feel he's being lazy about it, aside from the fact that I don't like his way of shaping his defense post, it's a wall of text.
I have no decisive scumreads yet. But I'll pick one of the three based on his post quality, activity levels and gut feeling:
Vivax post count is okay given that he he missed basically the first 24 hours or so of the game so note that I'm not actually usuing his lurking as a reason for his suspicion but rather the content in his posts.He have been playing insanely passive up untill this point. You should all check out his filter. This guy has during D1 pretty much not taken a clear stance anywhere. + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 21:12 Vivax wrote: Good day guys.
I opened this thread with the expectation of everyone pointing his finger at me for lurking so heavily the first half of day 1, for which I apologize now.
I have had a REALLY shit day yesterday, and I didn't have any motivation whatsoever to get into the internet. I am not very willing to specify what happened yesterday since this is still the internet, I'll just mention that it involved me driving. Now that it's Sunday, I can lean back a bit, gonna have quite some shit going on from tomorrow on, but I feel that I can keep contributing to this game in spite of the circumstances, but don't expect me to be online whenever you are.
Oh, and you should also know where I'm located to know the times I'm posting at: Austria/CET.
Time to start Top-down:
Like I already mentioned, I expected everyone to suspect me cause of policy lynching. Surprisingly, that's not the case. The policy talk quickly resulted into Release squeezing grush like a lemon throughout the game, but grush results to be a pretty dry one, just releasing unjuicy drops which only help to fortify the suspicions against him.
Frankly I think Release has a really aggressive playstyle reminding me of my own last game, it's a great way to gain transparent information from other people and to a lesser extent from the accused ones, but also involves risks of all kind.
The subsequent posts regaridng this case all revolve around the initial posts as tells. My verdict is: Release looks like he's tunneling pretty hard with the aggressive style, on the other hand I have to give him credit for getting out so much information from this case, town really IS busy due to this. Grush, well, if he's town I would be able to understand his somewhat angry, resignated answers as follow-up. If he's scum I would also be able to understand his high amount of one-liners with the least possible amount of information. However, his first posts really weren't helpful to town, so I'll treat him as suspicious, but not definitely guilty. I feel it's too early for me to cast a vote on him, he kind of reminds me of + Show Spoiler +
superouman
last game, but less lurking. If he's the only alternative to a No lynch, you'll have my vote nontheless.
I'm going to post more very soon, I'd prefer to keep my posts focused on single cases since I have to post a lot at once.
The first post by Vivax. Note that this is a long post. Note what he is saying. Well, what is he saying? Release is pushing grush hard but still he think it's good. grush is strange but he could very well be town. He is willing to lynch grush, at least under some circumstances. What did he REALLY say here? Remember my first post where I talked about different types of lurkers? This is the type who writes hellofapost and still very little content. + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 22:22 Vivax wrote: Okay, I've been doing a stance analysis on the grush case and here's my promised post:
s0lstice prefers to go on with policy discussion in the first posts and goes on with it until he outs for the night. When he's back, he completely drops grush and the policy discussion and puts his FoS on ha2etc.
Release thinks grush is guilty. Pretty much everyone agreed on grushs post about 'nothing to discuss' being a really bad suggestion for town play. Many dropped the case or defended grush in spite of this.
KtheZ notices the overconfidence of Release against grush and points out the danger of tunneling. But he also believes grush to have made scummy moves. I find his semi-calculations pretty strange tbh, but I guess it's his way of FoSing.
ShiaoPi has one post in which he says people should stop tunneling grush and instead pressure ha2etc. . What strikes me here is that he wants to pressure ha2etc. for actually defending grush. I find this to be contradictory.
Lazermonkey notices grush's suspicious posts and focuses on the people defending him in consequence after placing his FoS on grush.
ha2etc. soft-defends grush.
The_Zen_Man soft-defends grush.
I'm keeping my summary of the swedes in this thread rather short cause there are complex cases developing around them and I think these deserve an in-depth analysis before a summary.
So here is a summary post. Contains our opinions about grush. Not his own tho.
Guys, we're at close danger of a no-lynch. I'm not very satisfied with ha236 as option cause I find his first posts regarding Lazermonkey and Release to be true, but on the other hand he didn't make a single case except for OMGUS ones now in the end and instead only spent time defending grush and himself.
It was a pretty bad day 1 imo, and it can get even worse if we will have to further lurk in the dark, you'll have my vote on ha236 for the sake of the lynch, but be aware of the fact that I'll gladly switch it for any other majority.
##vote ha236
@ s0lstice
odd analysis? To me town play seems to be messed up atm and you should actually thank me for getting a bit of transparency in here. Every single and good player would make such a summary in a case before going on and accusing single persons. I doubt one would want to play with a narrow sight.
So he does not like ha236 lynch. I'm okay with that. I'm even okay with that he says he is willing to lynch into Ha236 if he needs to, in order to archive majority. What I'm NOT okey with is that he still doesn't give an option. He is fast on on dismiss both grush and ha236 as targets but what does he think himself? Still he havn't given one scumread himself. + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2012 06:21 Vivax wrote: Needless summarization? That is the type of summarization a good townie uses to get an idea of the connections someone had once he flips. If grush gets lynched, you can look up my summary and check the connections between grush and other players. Just cause you don't see the use doesn't mean it doesn't have any.
Btw, I can prove you are being selective since I didn't see you pick on the following summary yet. I just wonder if you are being selective on purpose cause raising suspicion on me would further increase the chance of a No lynch or if it's by mistake. While working on Lazermonkeys case against The_Zen_Man i found another 'needless summarization':
On June 11 2012 04:47 Lazermonkey wrote: So right now, we have not too much time untill lynching. We need to get something done here. With nine players there are 5(Lol) players that have received FoS/Votes unless I'm misstaken. These players are: grush Ha236 me(Lazermonkey) The_Zen_Man s0Lstice s0Lstice were also suspicious of KtheZ recently, although no FoS were placed.
Regarding The_Zen_Man case:
I especially liked LazerMans point regarding the contradiction between the FoS on him, but the vote on grush. It looks like The_Zen_Man doesn't believe much in his own case. We also have to consider that The_Zen_Man mostly used ha236 points already posted to soft-defend grush. That would allow scum to deflect attention to ha236 again in case gursh flips green.
That's about the latest points made by Lazermonkey, now to my own analysis, I'll be especially focusing on The_Zen_Man's first posts:
On June 09 2012 18:11 The_Zen_Man wrote: Hey guys, just woke up(time difference suck).
1:I have read some of the grush-release discussion, and i can say that i did found Grush comment weird. Also some of his later post is also strange. I will post a analysis on him later.
2:But release, you are going against him to hard. You said it yourself before, that your comment is useless to anyone but grush. If it's like that, you should let others give their opinions about him, and focus on someone else for a bit.
3:Also, as to my opinions on lynching, i agree that in case there is a hard lurker and no scum reads we should lynch the lurker, as he is not contributing anyways. But lynching with not much information (like d1) will probably result in a misslynch. We still gain information even is there is no lynch, by observing how players act before lynch, what they vote for, reaction after lynch, etc.
1. Here's the broken promise: We still have no analysis on grush from you. In a lynch all liars environment you would already be in huge trouble.
2. Without the analysis, you proceed to soft-defend him. The problem about your posts is the way you do that: You tell Release to focus on someone else. Imagine if he suddenly switched target like you propose, that would make him look quite inconsistent...and scummy.
3. The opinions on lynching. I mean, seriously? This part confuses the hell out of me. We should lynch lurkers, but on the other hand you say it will probably result in a mislynch. Then you actually say that we might gain information without a lynch. How is that so? Both points lack reasoning behind them and contradict the other points in your post. Your opinion on lynching policy is wishy washy and no opinion, you seem to promote everything at once.
The next posts show your support of ha, always disproving points others make against grush, but at the same time you emphasize your beliefs that he looks scummy.
On June 10 2012 17:35 The_Zen_Man wrote: I really don't know how ha got to be one of the "top" scum reads on this game. His play does not seem scummy at all to me. I think the best d1 lynch is grush, and then we can think about how to proceed once he flips.
Once ha gets into the crosshair, all of sudden you think it's best to drop all your defenses of grush and to lynch him.
When Lazermonkey actually notices your suspicious behavior:
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: The case against Lazermonkey:
First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own.
I think this quotation of mine reminds that he does have a point about that. You took many of the points about grushs defense from ha236, allowing you to deflect responsibility in case they turn out to be wrong.
Looking at your and ha2's posts, your stances are soft and inconsistent as opposed to his, so I'll let you know: If there's a choice between a majority on you and a majority on ha2, I will pick the one against you.
##FoS The_Zen_Man
His first real case on someone. This time he gives some actual opnions, which is good. However, why the FoS? Why not a vote? He first agrees with alot of my points about Zen_Man and also brings up a couple of new ones. All in all, the whole posts are filled with accusations yet he only FoS him. I feel like he is testing the waters here. + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2012 07:20 Vivax wrote: I've got the vote for Zen_Man ready, I'll give him about 30 minutes more time to post a defense, then I will proceed to vote for him.
We have a majority on him, that's for sure. I think even 6, not 5. Count me in in case he doesn't post a nukeproof defense.
Strange post. You said earlier that in case of majority on Zen_Man, you would vote him. Yet you don't. Contradiction here. Vivax finally decides to vote Zen_Man anyway but only after both Ha236 and s0lstice have laid down their votes. + Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2012 20:33 Vivax wrote: Sucks that s0lstice got lynched, he was one of the few active posters here. With people being lazy it's even easier for mafia to choose the active ones to get killed first. GG and thanks for the activity yo.
Let's get back to the real stuff, I think we have a good clue of the direction to move into:
I don't read ha2 scum yet, but I find his silence since the mislynch and the nightkill to be strange. And by silence I mean absence of good townie play. He's still a suspect who needs a decisive defense, and he didn't make any cases outside of OMGUS ones. Need people to come out and play, that's why you signed in for...if you are townie
Same goes for grush, since the attention switched away from him he decided to go on holidays. Still no proper townie work there, just short posts with short resumes. Wtf:
On June 12 2012 09:25 grush57 wrote: Damn, they killed one of my town reads. Well, I'm fine with ha or KtheZ.
You are asking for a lynch here, scum or not. Now he's suddenly one of your town reads, nice that you tell us once he's dead, everyone could say what you said. But even better, you don't post a single reason for you thinking that ha or KTheZ should be good lynch candidates, you are implying that others should do the work for you, and you even announce yourself for a jump on a bandwagon against these two. That's either a scumslip or really really bad townie play.
KTheZ shows activity when he has to. But like with the latter two, I feel he's being lazy about it, aside from the fact that I don't like his way of shaping his defense post, it's a wall of text.
I have no decisive scumreads yet. But I'll pick one of the three based on his post quality, activity levels and gut feeling:
##Vote grush57
The tone is this post is sooo... I don't know, different? You finally give out reads. In the end of your post tho, you say you have no decisive scumreads tho. You still vote grush right away. Think about how hard it was for him to vote Zen_Man last night even tho he had loads of suspicion on him and compare to this. wtf. You would also fine with lynching any of theese 3. I feel you're almost wanting to lynch for the sake of lynching here. We don't lynch because of that, we lynch because we want to kill scum. At least one of these persons must be townie but you are still okay with lynching any of them. And your motivations for lynching any of them is kinda meh. Your problems with both Ha and KTheZ seems to be their activity level and not the content of their posts.
Overall, this guy has basically taken no strong stances anywhere. He makes huge posts with little to no content. All players he have put up this ''weak'' pressure on are those who are already under heavy fire. First grush, then Ha236, then Zen_Man and lastly KTheZ. With all these players(maybe not Zen_Man tho) he basically says ''I'm willing to lynch if necesary but I'm not sure he is scum''. This is classic bandwagon play. ##Vote: Vivax
I've already responded to s0lstice in defense of my first posts. He also felt my summarizations were needless. If you want answers to your accusations, read spoiler 3 and 4. It pretty much comes down to whether or not you think it's useless if someone posts overviews of town relations.
Then you say I didn't give scumreads yet. Just lol, the next spoiler already contains my read, I wonder why you bother criticizing me for something which is disproved in the next thing you mention.
I said earlier that I would vote for Zen_Man in case that there was a majority possible on him. While I was writing that, town was about to lynch ha236. If I switched my vote at the point you find suspicious cause I didn't do so, then I would have put the town at danger of a no lynch. Gl the next day with no new information gained except for a nightkill that might allow mafia to make someone look suspicious or get rid of a better townie than the would-have-been-lynched one.A lynch is always better than no lynch, Zen_Man really appeared scummy. He didn't even claim. It was a solid lynch from a perspective of someone not knowing his alignment, and if he wouldn't have died, he just would have kept the circle of suspects bigger along with town's insecurity.
That was my defense to your feeble points, now I think you really deserve to be in the spotlight for what I'm about to post:
I still have posted more useful cases than anyone I mentioned in my post above. I wonder why you suddenly start bothering me and not them. You are giving them incentives to keep lurking, and their lurking is one of the reason I don't have decisive scumreads on them.
That, on the other hand, makes YOU suspicious. When I'm about to call out lurkers, you start accusing me with a really weak case. 'When you can't defend your scumbuddies, discredit their attackers' could be what you're plotting.
You have also tunneled The_Zen_Man with a rather weak case (as opposed to my case against him). Maybe you knew of his alignment, and maybe you even suspected he could have a blue role. On the other hand, you keep protecting ha236 with words and grush with your behavior, while you completely ignore KtheZ.
You have a history of tunneling mate, and your posts aren't less wishywashy than what you think of other people's posts, just check this out:
On June 11 2012 04:47 Lazermonkey wrote: So right now, we have not too much time untill lynching. We need to get something done here. With nine players there are 5(Lol) players that have received FoS/Votes unless I'm misstaken. These players are: grush Ha236 me(Lazermonkey) The_Zen_Man s0Lstice s0Lstice were also suspicious of KtheZ recently, although no FoS were placed.
We need to know who are willing to vote for who, even if they are not your n1 scumread if we are going to get a decent lynch tonight.
Right now my main scumread is The_Zen_Man but I am also willing to lynch grush. Ha236 has imo given quite solid response to the accusations against him and I'm not very keen on lynching him anymore. I am not sure about either s0lstice and KtheZ yet tho, as their cases were very recently posted.
Look how scummy you actually are, even by your own definition. You make a summarization (I used that to prove s0lstice's selective view.) You moderate a lot: 'We need to get something done', 'We need to know who are willing to vote for who' and 'even if they are not your n1 scumread'
I highlighted this cause it contradicts the points in your case against me. You say I'm scummy cause I tell who I'm willing to vote for, and then I'm scummy cause I'm not entirely sure of the scumreads on them when I vote. You actually promoted that in your moderation .
Not to mention your stances on lynch candidates, the syntax of that part is 'I'm not sure on who to lynch', that's all one can get from what you wrote there.
And while writing this I also realized that I should make you my first of suspects. You're screwing up pretty badly, and I hope that the still active part of town will recognize your mistakes (or slips) like I do.
It still baffles me that people chose to be so ignorant around Release, he is openly refusing to defend himself against anything I (seeing as I'm the only one pressuring him) have said.
That being said I see you all would like some raw opinion so let's take a look at KtheZ:
Everyone is giving me crap for not having posted "cases" in a while, has no one looked as KtheZ's filter? There's one or two posts about grush in the very early stages of the game but other than that there's nothing but posts summerizing other peoples opinion's and defending himself against peoples accusations. I by no means think this is a bad thing, but it doesn't give us (or atleast me) alot to go on. There's too few 'post chains' that are actually started by you, meaning your honest, fresh opinion that people can factor in to their reads.
On June 13 2012 01:56 ShiaoPi wrote: Wait so you guys are actually claiming? grush57 vs. KtheZ?
Didn't see a claim yet, but if both claim we will nail 1 scum for sure. One hour has passed and still nothing from KTheZ. Grush has been derping around all game long, but KTheZ is surpassing him at it right now. He's either a pretty bad townie or scum denying information. Pretty sloppy from both perspectives to announce he's gonna post something and then leave it unfulfilled.
I don't think a scum grush would claim like that without a good reason, he isn't under pressure atm and if KtheZ flips town he's dead anyway.
I'm very curious to see if KtheZ actually ends up replying. #unvote ##Vote KTheZ
I still wanna hear opinions regarding the 'Lazermonkey vs. me-case'. And now that grush is most likely a townie he can stop playing the minimalist style
On June 12 2012 12:09 ha236 wrote: Still waiting for Release to make a defense for any of my posts back at the end of day 1. There's just been mindless blabber in his posts on the night, he openly declines to answer my questions and no one else seems to give a damn? Seems strange to me.
Think hard about that "mindless blabber" and you know what he was trying to do, or go read his filter in his last game and it should be obvious. If you are trying to make a case against Release, you better post a good one and not some tidbits between each line how "flawed" his logic is.
On June 12 2012 13:56 Release wrote: It's so strange right?
##vote: ha236 Don't even try to claim this as suspicious. I don't know why solstice switched day 1, but i know why i claimed you were still scum. Shiaopi, vivax, grush, and townies, feel free to join me.
So Vivax, grush and me are not in the townie group? O_o
I say you guys because we along with solstice were originally voting for ha.
I say townies and not other townies because i can't assume that you're all town.
I still don't get this. Are you both claiming? Because I feel a very unserious tone in grush's post. But if this is true then it means that one of you is detective and the other one is scum. Because I see very little reason for a townie to be claiming detective...
Think hard about that "mindless blabber" and you know what he was trying to do, or go read his filter in his last game and it should be obvious. If you are trying to make a case against Release, you better post a good one and not some tidbits between each line how "flawed" his logic is.
I shouldn't need to go check peoples last games to play this game. I can't join mafia games on a game to game basis? I need to check up on how people have played before? If they don't convince me by their playstyle then I'm going to vote for them
@ha236: all I was saying is that his play makes sense from a town perspective. That is the most basic question, does the play makes sense towniewise. And as you are seemingly really focused on Release, why don't you take some time to write a neat case on him? Would be much more effective, than poking him once in a while.
Where the fuck is everybody by the way? We got 2 roleclaims and nobody cares?
On June 13 2012 04:27 ShiaoPi wrote: @ha236: all I was saying is that his play makes sense from a town perspective. That is the most basic question, does the play makes sense towniewise. And as you are seemingly really focused on Release, why don't you take some time to write a neat case on him? Would be much more effective, than poking him once in a while.
Where the fuck is everybody by the way? We got 2 roleclaims and nobody cares?
Well, my case is kind of spread out over many posts and since no one even seems to care about raising suspicion towards him I see no reason to compile anything at the moment.
On June 13 2012 04:31 ShiaoPi wrote: You know, people might care if you make a case which seems solid and has reason behind it... Seriously if you read him as mafia, push your case...
Allright, I'll do it on d3 since there are more pressing matters (KtheZ vs grush) atm
On June 12 2012 17:45 ShiaoPi wrote: @KtheZ: At least you make an effort of defending yourself, but unfortunately you are still not convincing me. Your posts still lack content and as solstice pointed out nicely you went with the flow of the thread. Furthermore I can understand that RL keeps you from being around at lynchtime, but seeing 5 votes on ha is not really an excuse to not be there if you offer your vote to switch if needed.
i've only read up to this post, but you can't blame Kthez for that one. Only s0lstice (and other non-ha voters to a lesser extent) can be responsible for stopping a Ha majority)
To the claims: There's no point in hiding your night check anymore now that you've claimed.
Of course, if you both refuse to give us your night check, then you're obviously trying to cause confusion, and we would have to assume that you're both scum, but in that case, one of you would get lynched. This is catch 22 (not WIFOM). If you're both town, you guys are mentally retarded.
On June 13 2012 02:37 KtheZ wrote: I was waiting for grush to confirm this rather than him joking.
A reply will be provided in due time, maybe an hour or 3
Are you DT or are you not? "something to say about it" is something you can quote later to say that you never claimed to be a DT and would be a great confusion spreader later in the game too.
If you are the DT, claim right now, with a "i am the detective"
My first night rolecheck was Lazermonkey. After the results of the first day lynch I decided to check one of the people who voted for Zen_Man,and Lazermonkey was a solid choice. The results turned up: Lazermonkey can be confirmed townie.
Grush is obviously scum, and his behavior in both accusing me and his nonsensical roleclaim are all meant to apply extreme pressure onto me. Grush is in his death throes, and is trying to pull as much information for scum as he can. Thus the fake roleclaim, which forces me out to contest this and reveal myself. He took s0Lstice's post against me and then killed s0Lstice, which makes it very easy for him to push a lynch on me.
If you look at grush's filter, his posts have been very anti-town and full of OMGUS. From the beginning he has never contributed anything useful to the town. I was trying to steer the town lynch in the direction I felt was right, without painting myself as a symbol for the mafia to hit. Imagine my suprise when I find out we randomly bandwagoned our medic. There goes my only avenue of survival if I claim!
On the first day I was unwilling to look too pro-town to the mafia, because I did not want to have any potential as a target. However, the one point I was firm on was my vote on grush, because I genuinely thought he was mafia.
Grush's play as town has been unconvincing, and even anti-town. None of his actions make sense, from a townie perspective.
On the first day I was unwilling to look too pro-town to the mafia, because I did not want to have any potential as a target. However, the one point I was firm on was my vote on grush, because I genuinely thought he was mafia.
I felt I would be wasting my time with ha and grush, and that it would be more important to see who steered the town to bandwagon in such a way, since it definitely felt like a plot of the mafia.
Here's my plan: We are at 5-2 which means we get one more mislynch before lylo. We lynch grush than kthez(if grush is town) This is based on the assumption that at least one of them are scum which I think is a fair assumption. Grush first cause he been spreading confusion all game. Then we get to 2-1. From there I think we'll have a fairly good chance to win.
Okay, so KtheZ is town as I doubt a mafia would fake it, I'm town, Release is town, Lazermonkey is town,so basically the 2 mafia are out of: Shiapo, Vivax and ha236.(3 people left)
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: Allright, I've read this boring discussion between grush and release and I hope I can give some insight as to what my opinions are.
What makes the first worthwhile thing on day 1 boring to you?
Seriously? That's the point that stands out the most to you in my post?
You highlighting it being the "first worthwhile thing" makes it seem to me as though you're implying that therefore it cannot be boring which I find hard to understand. However, it was boring because both of them were in my opinion just going around in circles throughout three pages of posts.
And so what if it was a circle? The more circles we went around, the more scummy that Grush was appearing and the more certain that we would end up confirming one of our scum targets, on day 1 no less.
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
How? If he thinks there is two scum among lurkers and there is a total of two scum in the game, there cannot be any scum among those who are posting, right?
This isn't the point I am making. He says he "wouldn't be surprised" if this were the case, not that he is sure that it is the case and from what I understand he isn't making this assumption based on his "readings", rather a motto that players that don't post alot are usually mafia (which, to me isn't very logical).
You explained it more clearly, called it illogical but does that make him scummy? Or is it just a lack of clarity with in a null/townie post? And why didn't you call this post useless as everyone else seemed to do? Everything is a possibility when we have no information
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
How? If he thinks there is two scum among lurkers and there is a total of two scum in the game, there cannot be any scum among those who are posting, right?
This isn't the point I am making. He says he "wouldn't be surprised" if this were the case, not that he is sure that it is the case and from what I understand he isn't making this assumption based on his "readings", rather a motto that players that don't post alot are usually mafia (which, to me isn't very logical).
Why would he say ''I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.'' if he didn't even think that himself? He could've just kept his mouth shut if his thoughts were very vauge. He choosed not to. So he thinks it's of enough substance to be posted.
And even if you are correct I don't like this post. He doesn't help us at all by saying ''there is a possibilty of 2 scum hiding among the lurkers''. Everyone understands this.
I didn't say that he wasn't thinking it, I said that he wasn't sure. As for why he said it, probably for the reason of generating discussion - which everyone is so keen on doing on day one from what I've gathered.
This is your soft-defense of grush (along with the previous post). Posting obvious ideas generate discussion? There wasn't so much as a plea to talk or a question directed at anyone. Why did you defend him here?
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
Because, like you said, I didn't care enough to check it, why would I want to defend anyone this early in the game. Since this is a noob game I assume noob mistakes will be made.
Then you talk about LaserMonkey.. On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
Show nested quote +
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
Show nested quote +
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
Obviously I meant that I disagreed with many of the points he made while agreeing on the big picture "issue".
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I feel like you're that implying starting the bandwagon (coming up with a argument that other people seem plausible) is a bad thing. If so, what's the meaning of talking at all?
Playing the noob card is ridiculous. Especially when you have seen the manner in which Grush has been posting. As you quoted (without the poster's name for whatever reason), this is a soft defense again.
Next part i agreed with.
Next part was based on misreading so i'll ignore it.
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I feel like you're that implying starting the bandwagon (coming up with a argument that other people seem plausible) is a bad thing. If so, what's the meaning of talking at all?
I misread, didn't see "avoid" in your post, for some reason. So I'll instead ask why you don't think I am.
it's been all soft defense. Soft defense is purposed to avoid direct attention and accusation and things like that. Starting a bandwagon attracts attention (like Lazermonkey on zen_man) and that would go against your goal with the soft defense.
Besides, it was a defense when everyone was attacking. You don't start bandwagons on someone you're defending.
On June 10 2012 06:16 ShiaoPi wrote: Oh wow, thread got really active while I was cheering on the Germans.
What I would suggest right now is to stop tunneling grush for the time and add some pressure to ha236. I am still waiting for answers regarding my question and his post is basically the statement that he is ready to jump on grush if he gets to be the primary lynch candidate.
Not saying that I am clearing grush from the suspicions but he cannot contribute that much if he keeps defending, give him some leeway until we really have to consolidate on a lynch and see what he can cook up.
I do not know which question you are reffering to as there is no questionmark in your previous post in reponse to my post. Just out of curiousity, why do you want to "add some pressure" to me?
So you refuse to answer a question because there was no question mark? That's sounds like something grush would do.
We have been pressuring grush whole time and solstice caught a "scumtell" that nobody was really acting upon. That's why.
Skipped a post cause i already answered earlier in the thread
I'm saying that you are leaving yourself open to either lynch or not lynch grush and use either part of the post to support your actions.
You criticize my post for not being extremely tilted to one side, whether he is "scummy" or not. Since I did not have such an opinion I posted what I posted. You would rather I posted none of my thoughts? Because I thought mafia was about sharing your opinions and trying to work towards finding out who is who.
You never so much as implied scummy or not. Just trying to appear useful.
Do you really think ha236 is a better case than grush? Ha looks like a solid day 2 candidate. By all means pressure him, but keep in mind that this is a extended majority vote.
What's the deal with some of the players only caring about the opinions of a few others? It's kind of cute though.
again with this useless. If you have an opinion, just say it. Feel free to invite others. I talk to solstice about this cause he was only guy on your ass when everyone else say grush's ass.
On June 10 2012 09:18 ha236 wrote: EBWOP:
Especially Release and solstice, second time they confront one another in this manner.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
dealt with mostly but i noticed you managed to sneak some WIFOM in there, as well as the false claim that grush spends time defending himself. he had plenty of time.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, it's because you said what Lazermonkey said was strange, and then agreed with him.
Are you claiming that he is or isn't scum in the second bold? You said earlier that there is not enough information was now you say "way [too] simple to lynch him..." So the reasoning is obvious, therefore you don't want to lynch him?
Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?
Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.
About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.
Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis. Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.
Yeah and i agreed with you. So we must both be ignorant right? I merely brought up solstice's point that got you suspicious in the first place.
I didn't "always" i brought it up to give my thoughts, then responded to other people's thoughts.
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: What is also interesting is that not long after ha236 posted about Lazermonkeys's flawed logic and "exaggerating", Solstice came and posted a "case" on ha236, which was imo very weak. Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?
It's intresting that you keep saying that the case on ha236 is so weak when there are already a couple of people willing to vote for him. Surely there must be at least something with his play that is suspicous? ''Lazermonkey then jumped to this idea. Maybe Solstice and Lazermonkey are scumbros and tried to start a bandwagon?'', so the fact that I thought there were something worth of notice in his post makes us both scum? eh...
This part stands out to me. You're basing your suspiscion on the fact that solstice and Release have said so? I might have misunderstood this but the reason people think I'm suspicious is because I've softly defended grush. If I havn't allready let me go over it again; I don't think grush is scum. In my opinion there is not enough information to decide this, basically the only thing grush has posted about is trying to defend himself against Release's relentless nitpicking of his posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you overestimate the value of that conversation. Anyone in their right minds understands that encouraging the rest of the players to not post (not exposing any information) so you're stuck at square one for the whole game pretty much labels you as mafia instantly. It's way to simple to lynch him because of this. He felt obligied to defend himself since he didn't want to end up in the situation (that he's in now anyway) where he's look suspicious because he hasn't answered peoples questions.
No, it's because you said what Lazermonkey said was strange, and then agreed with him.
Are you claiming that he is or isn't scum in the second bold? You said earlier that there is not enough information was now you say "way [too] simple to lynch him..." So the reasoning is obvious, therefore you don't want to lynch him?
Your ignorance is hilarious, I've said countless times that I agreed with him on that one point but thought the rest of the post was strange. Why is it you continue to bring this up? Who are you trying to fool?
Perhaps you should read what you just quoted/wrote. I said that I cannot decide anything based on that discussion because it doesn't provide enough information for me which is exactly what I've allready said.
About the voting... At this my attention is on Release and solstice sseeing as they insist on allways bringing up my post on Lazermonkey, how I contradict myself (which is wrong), and instantly after this I'm #2 on the scum meter? I might be missing something here but the logic behind their decisions are to me very lacking.
Also it annoys me when people are stating that others are 100% town because they stick to their opinions? This is the pinnacle of ignorance, there's an expression that goes "Don't judge a book by it's cover" which aplies nicely here. "Sticking to your guns" is what tunneling someone is all about, an informed decision is made by taking information from many sources and analyzing and compiling them to a well thought-out thesis. Ex. Having one source on the source-reference page in an essay will most definately net you an F.
haven't read the whole post but i'm going to clarify something right now:
On June 10 2012 06:03 Release wrote:
On June 10 2012 04:54 s0Lstice wrote: Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.
Now I want to talk about ha236
Let's look at his post on grush and LazerMonkey.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
Then you talk about LaserMonkey..
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
##FoS: ha236
To check if this really is Grush's first game is a tremendous waste of time. There are far too many game to check. (i believe we have 55 regular mafias and 15 newb ones.) To me it looks like he is trying to buddy up to grush but i can't be sure of that. I agree; playing the noob card as reasoning is too much assumptions.
It looks more like the two quoted posts are strange (and putting words in grush's mouth) but the agreement is that grush has been wishy-washy.
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I'm the one who is agreeing with your post on monkey. I was bringing up the general reason why there was suspicion behind you in the first place.
And thanks for voting for solstice.
##unvote: Grush ##vote: ha236
For now, solstice has been quite helpful. Your voting for him because he was the first person to cast suspicion on you is rather silly. if anyone, you probably should have voted for me.
Another show of your ignorance, anyway in the quoted post there is nothing about you agreeing with me on the topic we're talking about, rather on the grush topic.
Of course you think solstice has been helpful, you and him share the same dumb logic. I am aware that s0Lstice was the first to "raise suspicion" about me and I was sure that someone as superficial as you would comment on that instantly, further proving my point that you havn't come up with any real reason as to why I am suspicious.
Up until now my suspicion, based on your dumb logic and lacking reasoning, has been leaning toward solsice, yes, but with this last post I'll have to change my vote to you, as suggested.
On June 10 2012 04:54 s0Lstice wrote: Very happy to see that the discussion has picked up.
Now I want to talk about ha236
Let's look at his post on grush and LazerMonkey.
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: As a first time player I probably would have made the same mistake grush did (I don't know if this is his first time but w/e) and say that there is nothing to talk about on the first day, but as Release said that obviously puts us in a bad situation when no one is posting at all. Also the content of grush's posts has been pretty lackluster but again, seeing as this is a noob-game I think that's something we have to expect.
This is a soft defense of grush, based on the sentiment that a first time player makes mistakes, yet you don't care enough to check if this really is his first game? How is that 'w/e' when your defense of him relies on qualifying the mistakes he is making as first time player mistakes?
Then you talk about LaserMonkey..
On June 09 2012 23:09 ha236 wrote: After this discussion ended we tasted some new blood in the thread - Lazermonkey and Zen man. While not being able to get a good "read" on any of you two (you not having posted much yet) some of Lazermonkey's comments on the Release-grush discussion seemed strange to me.
On June 09 2012 11:38 grush57 wrote: (What case?) Whats to talk about, seriously give me something lol. People are lurking? Yeah mlg is on and it's not even 3 hours
So your third post is this. Now you changed your mind. It's fine if people lurk.
He does not say that it is "fine if people lurk". My interpretation of the sentances is that he does not know what to post about and then proposes the subject of why people are not posting and offers his explanation (being that the game just started, people might not be by the computer and even if they are they may be watching MLG).
On June 09 2012 13:55 grush57 wrote: K well it's hard to do with half the people didn't even post yet. I wouldn't be suprised if the 2 mafia are in those lurkers.
So now you are once again really suspicious of people not posting. Also if there are two mafia among the lurkers it means that you have a townread on s0Lstice, KtheZ and Release. Correct?
In this paragraph Lazermonkey is trying to make the rest of us believe that grush said something he has not, that he is "suspicious of people not posting". Grush says he "wouldn't be surprised if the two mafia are in those lurkers" and from this Lazermonkey believes him to have a town read on the rest of the posters at that time.
Lastly, I like the way Lazermonkey explained his stance on lurkers (two different kinds) however I don't think you can justifiably apply the one about posting stuff with no actual content so early on in the game and I ultimately agree that grush has been changing his stance on whether it is good or not to lynch lurkers.
Very loud contradiction. If Lazermonkey's comments are strange then why are you agreeing with them? Why did you defend grush if you think Lazermonkey has something there?
##FoS: ha236
To check if this really is Grush's first game is a tremendous waste of time. There are far too many game to check. (i believe we have 55 regular mafias and 15 newb ones.) To me it looks like he is trying to buddy up to grush but i can't be sure of that. I agree; playing the noob card as reasoning is too much assumptions.
It looks more like the two quoted posts are strange (and putting words in grush's mouth) but the agreement is that grush has been wishy-washy.
I think ha is setting himself to jump on the bandwagon if there is one, or to avoid starting one if there isn't.
I agreed with you. Liar.
You suspicious because of: poor defense of your-self, refusal to say someone is scum or not, and retarded vote on solstice.
On June 11 2012 06:16 ha236 wrote: ##Vote: Release
Another retarded vote
skipped several because useless/dealt with Go check his filter if you want
On June 12 2012 12:09 ha236 wrote: Still waiting for Release to make a defense for any of my posts back at the end of day 1. There's just been mindless blabber in his posts on the night, he openly declines to answer my questions and no one else seems to give a damn? Seems strange to me.
I passively declined. more lying.
On June 12 2012 23:37 ha236 wrote: It still baffles me that people chose to be so ignorant around Release, he is openly refusing to defend himself against anything I (seeing as I'm the only one pressuring him) have said.
That being said I see you all would like some raw opinion so let's take a look at KtheZ:
Everyone is giving me crap for not having posted "cases" in a while, has no one looked as KtheZ's filter? There's one or two posts about grush in the very early stages of the game but other than that there's nothing but posts summerizing other peoples opinion's and defending himself against peoples accusations. I by no means think this is a bad thing, but it doesn't give us (or atleast me) alot to go on. There's too few 'post chains' that are actually started by you, meaning your honest, fresh opinion that people can factor in to their reads.
passively.
it's not bad? Your tone certainly suggested it was bad. More softness. Townies are hard.
On June 13 2012 04:27 ShiaoPi wrote: @ha236: all I was saying is that his play makes sense from a town perspective. That is the most basic question, does the play makes sense towniewise. And as you are seemingly really focused on Release, why don't you take some time to write a neat case on him? Would be much more effective, than poking him once in a while.
Where the fuck is everybody by the way? We got 2 roleclaims and nobody cares?
Well, my case is kind of spread out over many posts and since no one even seems to care about raising suspicion towards him I see no reason to compile anything at the moment.
so you hide behind your posts and we have to seek them? I going thru your filter and your questions to me took quite a while finding. Why not be clear? You're Wasting my time doing this shit
On June 13 2012 04:31 ShiaoPi wrote: You know, people might care if you make a case which seems solid and has reason behind it... Seriously if you read him as mafia, push your case...
Allright, I'll do it on d3 since there are more pressing matters (KtheZ vs grush) atm
you certainly need a lot of time to make a case on me when most cases are based on previous thoughts that can be made with a few hours.
Also, so what if there is something else? Having one issue doesn't prevent another one from being discussed. And it would raise the activity level, something you seemed very opposed to doing.
On June 13 2012 13:01 Release wrote: We NEED activity. We won't be able to solve this shit by one idea every few hours.
if you were roleblocked last night, Please claim now.
Grush can't have been roleblocked. I was. Breadcrumb here:
On June 12 2012 08:14 ShiaoPi wrote: My god I love these flavour posts
GG solstice (you kind of have a record for being shot night one twice in a row xD)
In all seriousness, solstice is confirmed town now, so scratch releases case,
We should take a look at the remaining suspects we have right now: ha236, grush57 and KtheZ. after some consideration I would say that we should lynch into on of ha or grush bar something drastic happens. seeing the nighthit on solstice could give some more consideration towards KtheZ, I have the FOS on him anyway.
Regarding our plans for the next lynch I would say go with ha236, as he has some connections with grush, with that Bearing in mind his flip will also give us information regarding grush's alignment. eventually we must also look at KtheZ, but let's hear his defense first, his case is definetly not fully fleshed out yet.
Grush I'm not buying this for one sec even. Explain this from a town point if view if you can.
1). You claim DT DESPITE being VT. If this is a joke, it's the worst one ever. I can only think of 1 situation where this would be smart, if you want to bait bullets from scum in order to let the real detective get one more garuanteed check off. This is just really risky play and can end up in a real mess if you don't do it correctly. But let's for once think if that's what grush actually wanted to do here. Why would you in that case claim someone to be scum? You are forcing a counterclaim here, which is what happend. A much easier way would probebly be if you claimed someone to be town as there is a much higher chance for someone to be town.
2). When Kthez claims you say that you are a just a townie. Lol?
I can get that you wanted to tank bullets but this is a noob game and hoping that noone would counterclaim is stupid. This cannot simply be town play...
On June 13 2012 01:56 ShiaoPi wrote: Wait so you guys are actually claiming? grush57 vs. KtheZ?
Didn't see a claim yet, but if both claim we will nail 1 scum for sure. One hour has passed and still nothing from KTheZ. Grush has been derping around all game long, but KTheZ is surpassing him at it right now. He's either a pretty bad townie or scum denying information. Pretty sloppy from both perspectives to announce he's gonna post something and then leave it unfulfilled.
I don't think a scum grush would claim like that without a good reason, he isn't under pressure atm and if KtheZ flips town he's dead anyway.
I'm very curious to see if KtheZ actually ends up replying. #unvote ##Vote KTheZ
I still wanna hear opinions regarding the 'Lazermonkey vs. me-case'. And now that grush is most likely a townie he can stop playing the minimalist style
Am I the only one who noticed this post? Now I really think grush is the scum. So you think Kthez is the scum because he ''denying info'' but then you say both of them are withholding info (which is were true at the time of this post). Contradiction.
''I don't think a scum grush would claim like that without a good reason, he isn't under pressure atm and if KtheZ flips town he's dead anyway. ''. I know you wrote this before he claimed VT but it seems just like he did this without any reason what so ever.
Link to Vivax filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960&user=171343. He haven't taken a clear stance on grush at all, despite all the action on him. Notice how all of his posts about grush is either summaries of other peoples views or himself and how he thinks grush looks suspicious but probebly shouldn't be lynched but he is willing to lynch if he it comes down to a no lynch. Super wish washy. Doesn't push the case at all. And a perfect setup for a buss in case grush seems to fuck up far too much.
Also, Ha236, you've almost been given a freepass to D3 because of the grush-Kthez issue. This means you can stop fucking defend yourself all the time and post something usefull. You havn't given your read on either grush or Kthez but your only couple of posts the last 24 hours have been either useless shit about Release useless shit in general. Stop this. If you want to get Release lynched you must realise that there is noway you can OMGUS him into that.
On June 13 2012 04:31 ShiaoPi wrote: You know, people might care if you make a case which seems solid and has reason behind it... Seriously if you read him as mafia, push your case...
Allright, I'll do it on d3 since there are more pressing matters (KtheZ vs grush) atm
I rather want you to do that now but in case you simply don't have the time I am fine with you posting it on N2, minutes before D3. Because if you get shot, we will have no info by you to go with!
Hopefully we already have a majority to lynch grush. If not VOTE NOW!
Regarding scum nr.2 I would say the easiest suspect is ha236. As Lazermonkey pointed out he has been given a freepass to d3 now (unless he gets shot O_o), so please start contributing, I have asked you to do so repeatedly already but now you really have more than enough time. Naturally if grush should flip town, KtheZ has to go next. Or if he somehow survives n2, he will be on top of my list as well. So my opinion on the 2nd scum right now depends heavily on the coming lynch and the night after.
So, KtheZ has roleclaimed. There are no other claims out yet, hence it's safe to assume that he really is the DT?
ShiaoPi has been roleblocked, if he speaks the truth then there really is a DT among town.
I've read the case on ha2 and Release went through his posts pretty thoroughly, but we have to set priorities guys, who to vote next?I'm not sure between grush and ha2. We have to make a safe choice or we'll end up LYLO.
Punish grush for his weird, lying and ballsy playstyle or punish ha2 for his perfect lack of cases except for the OMGUS against Release and s0lstice?
As a reminder to everyone, please make use of the coaching available should you so desire. Our coaches just love to help. Your best bet is Toadesstern as I think wbg is a little busy.
Right, the reason I said d3 was because I for some reason thought that d2 was going to be 24 hours and at the time it would have been almost deadline.
I looked through Release's filter and to be honest, since the grush discussion I there's only Release answering peoples post, analyzing other peoples reads and some 'useful' one-liners. Most of this I have already wrote about in previous posts so I'll instead post my opinions on some long coveted answers to my questions. Call it OMGUS or w/e, idc.
..and to the bolded statement I know you're thinking this:
so you hide behind your posts and we have to seek them? I going thru your filter and your questions to me took quite a while finding. Why not be clear? You're Wasting my time doing this shit
I don't care, who's fault is it you didn't bother to read them the first time they were posted? If you'd read what they responded to and analyzed it from the start then you wouldn't have this problem.
You explained it more clearly, called it illogical but does that make him scummy? Or is it just a lack of clarity with in a null/townie post? And why didn't you call this post useless as everyone else seemed to do? Everything is a possibility when we have no information
I may be misunderstanding this but I cannot find anywhere that I state it to be scummy and then I sense a contradiction; you ask why I didn't call the post useless and go on to say that "Everything is a possibility when we have no information" meaning it's better than nothing?
This is your soft-defense of grush (along with the previous post). Posting obvious ideas generate discussion? There wasn't so much as a plea to talk or a question directed at anyone. Why did you defend him here?
Am I not allowed to defend him, do I need to be answering a question while posting, I can't voice my opinion freely? I didn't think he seemed bad at the time basically.
So you refuse to answer a question because there was no question mark? That's sounds like something grush would do.
ShiaoPi
I did read through your post and I felt obliged to point out something which stood out to me. I am saying that it is not boring as it gives us something to discuss and analyse on in order to go scumhunting. As scumhunting (obviously) takes top priority I do not see how it could be boring to you to get something to work with.
Well, if you had read the post you see that there was no obvious question. ShiaoPi points out a valid point to me but there is nothing that needs answering.
This post is to my not taking a clear stance in earlier posts
You never so much as implied scummy or not. Just trying to appear useful.
I've adressed this earlier; would you rather I didn't speak anything of my opinions until I have my mind completely fixated on something? Because to me that doesn't seem very helpful to the game. I didn't have that kind of an opinion at the time so I didn't imply anything of the likes.
Yeah and i agreed with you. So we must both be ignorant right? I merely brought up solstice's point that got you suspicious in the first place.
I agreed with you. Liar.
No matter how hard I try to explain this part it keeps going in circles so I'll just drop it.
I passively declined. more lying.
Passively declining is
i give it to you now: scum
It's so strange right?
OMGUS! OMGUS! OMGUS! Fos: ha236
? I don't know what you think you got out of these but to me it seems like you were delaying your answers for some reason which I can't for the life of me figure out.
More softness. Townies are hard.
This is some kind of a self-implied rule?
The parts that I've either answered earlier in this post or I see your point and I digress. I've also understood that begging for answers after every post doesn't really get you anywhere so no more of that..
Now to the case at hand - grush, again. You're roleclaiming left and right to no avail whatsoever, it's only making you look more and more scummy and there hasn't been any heavy reads or analyzes from you in quite some time.
grush you realise that you are about to get lynched, right? If you are the townie you claim to be, you should be posting like a fucking madman now. But you aren't. Give us reads and whatever and give us motivations for once...
On June 13 2012 11:11 grush57 wrote: Okay, so KtheZ is town as I doubt a mafia would fake it, I'm town, Release is town, Lazermonkey is town,so basically the 2 mafia are out of: Shiapo, Vivax and ha236.(3 people left)
On June 13 2012 23:12 marvellosity wrote: As a reminder to everyone, please make use of the coaching available should you so desire. Our coaches just love to help. Your best bet is Toadesstern as I think wbg is a little busy.
This is very true; WBG has personal matters to deal with so contact Toadesstern if in need of advice.
On June 14 2012 03:08 grush57 wrote: Because mafia doesn't spam the thread and tunnel. Mafia also don't make clear decisions. I don't know why you are letting ha live right now lol.
Because the DT claim was the worst thing I've ever seen, you made our DT claim, which means he will 99,9% chance die this night. Why would you do this as a townie?
On June 14 2012 03:09 grush57 wrote: I'm pretty sure that if you lynch me it'll be 3 town to 2 mafia, and then night will make it 2-2, mafia wins sooooooooooooo make the right choice now.
Not true. it's 5-2 now, so D3 we will have two MYLOs in case we misslynch.
On June 12 2012 22:33 Vivax wrote: I've already responded to s0lstice in defense of my first posts. He also felt my summarizations were needless. If you want answers to your accusations, read spoiler 3 and 4. It pretty much comes down to whether or not you think it's useless if someone posts overviews of town relations.
Which is not what I said either. I said you used this summaries to hide the fact that you weren't takeing a clear stance anywhere...
On June 12 2012 22:33 Vivax wrote:Then you say I didn't give scumreads yet. Just lol, the next spoiler already contains my read, I wonder why you bother criticizing me for something which is disproved in the next thing you mention
You even said youself that Zen_Man was a super easy target. He apeared scummy as fuck so you don't really need to take a risk at all when pushing him. I don't blame you for pushing the misslynching Zen_Man, I did aswell. But don't say that you are taking alot of stances and opinions when the only stance you have ever really taken was on him.
On June 12 2012 22:33 Vivax wrote: I said earlier that I would vote for Zen_Man in case that there was a majority possible on him. While I was writing that, town was about to lynch ha236. If I switched my vote at the point you find suspicious cause I didn't do so, then I would have put the town at danger of a no lynch. Gl the next day with no new information gained except for a nightkill that might allow mafia to make someone look suspicious or get rid of a better townie than the would-have-been-lynched one.A lynch is always better than no lynch, Zen_Man really appeared scummy. He didn't even claim. It was a solid lynch from a perspective of someone not knowing his alignment, and if he wouldn't have died, he just would have kept the circle of suspects bigger along with town's insecurity.
Okay, I kinda buy this one. Still, you weren't the first one to swap the vote.
On June 12 2012 22:33 Vivax wrote: That was my defense to your feeble points, now I think you really deserve to be in the spotlight for what I'm about to post:
I still have posted more useful cases than anyone I mentioned in my post above. I wonder why you suddenly start bothering me and not them. You are giving them incentives to keep lurking, and their lurking is one of the reason I don't have decisive scumreads on them. That, on the other hand, makes YOU suspicious. When I'm about to call out lurkers, you start accusing me with a really weak case. 'When you can't defend your scumbuddies, discredit their attackers' could be what you're plotting.
/care? Here is piece of your post that is 100% uneccesary. Once again posting useless material to make it look like you are contributing while you aren't. There are WIFOM here. Also don't make it look like you are townie just because you are calling out lurkers...
On June 12 2012 22:33 Vivax wrote:You have also tunneled The_Zen_Man with a rather weak case (as opposed to my case against him). Maybe you knew of his alignment, and maybe you even suspected he could have a blue role. On the other hand, you keep protecting ha236 with words and grush with your behavior, while you completely ignore KtheZ.
Haha, this is kinda funny actually. Not only a random insult but also contradiction. You said when posting your own case on Zen_Man that you agreed with alot of things in my case. Why do you agree with a weak case? Don't you think that is a bit scummy?
You have a history of tunneling mate, and your posts aren't less wishywashy than what you think of other people's posts, just check this out:
On June 11 2012 04:47 Lazermonkey wrote: So right now, we have not too much time untill lynching. We need to get something done here. With nine players there are 5(Lol) players that have received FoS/Votes unless I'm misstaken. These players are: grush Ha236 me(Lazermonkey) The_Zen_Man s0Lstice s0Lstice were also suspicious of KtheZ recently, although no FoS were placed.
We need to know who are willing to vote for who, even if they are not your n1 scumread if we are going to get a decent lynch tonight.
Right now my main scumread is The_Zen_Man but I am also willing to lynch grush. Ha236 has imo given quite solid response to the accusations against him and I'm not very keen on lynching him anymore. I am not sure about either s0lstice and KtheZ yet tho, as their cases were very recently posted.
Look how scummy you actually are, even by your own definition. You make a summarization (I used that to prove s0lstice's selective view.) You moderate a lot: 'We need to get something done', 'We need to know who are willing to vote for who' and 'even if they are not your n1 scumread'
I highlighted this cause it contradicts the points in your case against me. You say I'm scummy cause I tell who I'm willing to vote for, and then I'm scummy cause I'm not entirely sure of the scumreads on them when I vote. You actually promoted that in your moderation .
Not to mention your stances on lynch candidates, the syntax of that part is 'I'm not sure on who to lynch', that's all one can get from what you wrote there.
First of, I don't see the contradiction here. I said I was 100% willing to lynch Zen_Man. I was also willing to lynch grush if that was required in order to gain majority for a lynch. I was not willing to lynch Ha236. Because both the case against s0lstice and the case vs Kthez were quite new at that point, my read on thoose two were very slim. Thus I hadn't decided on if I was willing to lynch thoose two yet. But as the day progressed, it was obvious that none of thoose two were about to be lynched so I simply dropped them and focused on Zen_Man.
Once again, never said that summaries were scummy. You are making that up
Also the differences between this post and yours are huge. This post was made just some hours before lynch and almost noone had dropped their vote at that point. You seem to agree with that no lynch is bad for town. This is what I wanted to stop.Your post on the other hand were posted at the very start of the day. There were no stress in getting the post done. still you claimed you'd be okay with any of the 3 persons getting lynched. Lolwtf? And your arguments for them getting lynched was, as said before, weak and hardly worth a lynch.
Lazer, right now I am more or less just waiting for the flip of grush. Nothing more to say right now, as he will be our lynch today, even if he is a townie his play is soo ridiculously anti-town that we are probably better off without him
On June 14 2012 04:37 ShiaoPi wrote: Lazer, right now I am more or less just waiting for the flip of grush. Nothing more to say right now, as he will be our lynch today, even if he is a townie his play is soo ridiculously anti-town that we are probably better off without him
Considering that if we misslynch, we are at 2 MYLOs I don't really agree here but w/e. I see your point. I might not stay up untill the lynch as I need to get up quite early in the morning tomorrow as I feel everyone is having this mentality right now.
On June 12 2012 22:33 Vivax wrote: I said earlier that I would vote for Zen_Man in case that there was a majority possible on him. While I was writing that, town was about to lynch ha236. If I switched my vote at the point you find suspicious cause I didn't do so, then I would have put the town at danger of a no lynch. Gl the next day with no new information gained except for a nightkill that might allow mafia to make someone look suspicious or get rid of a better townie than the would-have-been-lynched one.A lynch is always better than no lynch, Zen_Man really appeared scummy. He didn't even claim. It was a solid lynch from a perspective of someone not knowing his alignment, and if he wouldn't have died, he just would have kept the circle of suspects bigger along with town's insecurity.
On June 14 2012 04:00 Lazermonkey wrote: Okay, I kinda buy this one. Still, you weren't the first one to swap the vote.
Guess why I only quote this. This quoted part is a good example of your way of bad thinking (or acting).
'Vivax doesn't swap his vote first, thus his argument is invalid and he is mafia'.
Yeah sure. Really smart move bro. Read the quote. There's already the reason why I wasn't among the first to swap, it's cause it might have put the town at risk of a no lynch. You don't just say: 'I BUY IT', no, you're even so clever to say right next to it: 'BUT YOU'RE SUSPICIOUS CAUSE OF IT'.
And this is how town should look at you after reading this: -> + Show Spoiler +
I really hope that other townies recognize how often you are contradicting yourself (within really close textparts!!!) in your desperate attempts to tunnel me.
There are cases promising a ton of information, and while you try to blend in on each of these cases, your main objective remains to tunnel me, throughout a ton of pages. You're incredibly narrowsighted or you seek to spread as much distrust against me as possible.
But I don't mind, once new information pops up I'm sure that I will discover further mistakes in your play. And I'll let you hang if and once I find scumtells there.
Oh and btw. Grush is about to get lynched.
If I don't switch vote now, I risk a no lynch and you'll throw that at me. If I switch vote now, you'll say I bandwagoned. Know what?Why should I risk a no lynch?I really don't care about what you have to say after all your slips, but you can try and keep tunneling. You better hope you're not the next scum to hang, cause I think that might be very possible.
On June 14 2012 04:37 ShiaoPi wrote: Lazer, right now I am more or less just waiting for the flip of grush. Nothing more to say right now, as he will be our lynch today, even if he is a townie his play is soo ridiculously anti-town that we are probably better off without him
ShiaoPi is confirmed mafia, the question is who else? Probably ha, he doesn't care if a town gets lynched EXCEPT THAT HE WILL LOSE (If he is town(he isn't though)) if a townie gets lynched.
On June 14 2012 05:48 grush57 wrote: It's kinda sad mafia already won and there just throwing out scumslips :'(
Enlighten us on the scumslips. If you really are town, even if you die, you can still let town win. Just tell us about your thoughts, where are the slips, who do you think is suspicious etc. etc.
Don't throw away all hope and go into emo mode.Write something that's not an anti-town lie this time. People might still believe you and switch their votes. 2 hours to go, that's a long time.
On June 12 2012 22:33 Vivax wrote: I said earlier that I would vote for Zen_Man in case that there was a majority possible on him. While I was writing that, town was about to lynch ha236. If I switched my vote at the point you find suspicious cause I didn't do so, then I would have put the town at danger of a no lynch. Gl the next day with no new information gained except for a nightkill that might allow mafia to make someone look suspicious or get rid of a better townie than the would-have-been-lynched one.A lynch is always better than no lynch, Zen_Man really appeared scummy. He didn't even claim. It was a solid lynch from a perspective of someone not knowing his alignment, and if he wouldn't have died, he just would have kept the circle of suspects bigger along with town's insecurity.
On June 14 2012 04:00 Lazermonkey wrote: Okay, I kinda buy this one. Still, you weren't the first one to swap the vote.
Guess why I only quote this. This quoted part is a good example of your way of bad thinking (or acting).
'Vivax doesn't swap his vote first, thus his argument is invalid and he is mafia'.
Yeah sure. Really smart move bro. Read the quote. There's already the reason why I wasn't among the first to swap, it's cause it might have put the town at risk of a no lynch. You don't just say: 'I BUY IT', no, you're even so clever to say right next to it: 'BUT YOU'RE SUSPICIOUS CAUSE OF IT'.
And this is how town should look at you after reading this: -> + Show Spoiler +
I really hope that other townies recognize how often you are contradicting yourself (within really close textparts!!!) in your desperate attempts to tunnel me.
Wow, you are stupid right now. Yup, I said just that. I wouldn't have done this in your position which is why I answered like I did. But after I read your response I understand that this could be done from a town point of view which is why I answered like I did. Therefore I drop the argument because it's a weak one.
You are however avoiding ALL my other arguments, and you instead choose to pick on the one even myself consider to be weak one.
On June 14 2012 05:28 Vivax wrote: There are cases promising a ton of information, and while you try to blend in on each of these cases, your main objective remains to tunnel me, throughout a ton of pages. You're incredibly narrowsighted or you seek to spread as much distrust against me as possible.
Yes, my main objective is to kill scum. I see no problem in tunneling to succed here.
On June 14 2012 05:28 Vivax wrote: Oh and btw. Grush is about to get lynched.
If I don't switch vote now, I risk a no lynch and you'll throw that at me. If I switch vote now, you'll say I bandwagoned. Know what?Why should I risk a no lynch?I really don't care about what you have to say after all your slips, but you can try and keep tunneling. You better hope you're not the next scum to hang, cause I think that might be very possible.
##vote grush57
Cool story bro. I'm not sure if your blind but doesn't that mean Kthez is scum? But you want to lynch grsuh? ehh? But the thing is, like always, you put massive uncertainty in this post so you'll just respond with ''I never said you were scum''.
On June 13 2012 05:23 KtheZ wrote: My first night rolecheck was Lazermonkey. After the results of the first day lynch I decided to check one of the people who voted for Zen_Man,and Lazermonkey was a solid choice. The results turned up: Lazermonkey can be confirmed townie.
Grush is obviously scum, and his behavior in both accusing me and his nonsensical roleclaim are all meant to apply extreme pressure onto me. Grush is in his death throes, and is trying to pull as much information for scum as he can. Thus the fake roleclaim, which forces me out to contest this and reveal myself. He took s0Lstice's post against me and then killed s0Lstice, which makes it very easy for him to push a lynch on me.
If you look at grush's filter, his posts have been very anti-town and full of OMGUS. From the beginning he has never contributed anything useful to the town. I was trying to steer the town lynch in the direction I felt was right, without painting myself as a symbol for the mafia to hit. Imagine my suprise when I find out we randomly bandwagoned our medic. There goes my only avenue of survival if I claim!
On the first day I was unwilling to look too pro-town to the mafia, because I did not want to have any potential as a target. However, the one point I was firm on was my vote on grush, because I genuinely thought he was mafia.
Grush's play as town has been unconvincing, and even anti-town. None of his actions make sense, from a townie perspective.
I find it funny that I manage to find loads of posts on you that contains clear indications on scumplay You, on the other hand, only find one line which could be considered scumslip.
I've quit wasting my time with you lazer. Aside from the personal attacks, I think it's pretty obvious that you're tunneling me hard.
A good townie has to keep an overview of all players in the cases he decides to pursue, and that's not what you're doing. On the other hand it allows you to claim you're being consistent in your play if your target flips town. Just try to pull that card.
You are excessively afraid to make other cases. Instead you post high content low information ones (wall of text ugh).
You even admit that you made a weak point. Make good cases or don't make them at all. There is much better information out there you plainly ignore.
And no, tunneling is not hunting scum. Tunneling is being stubborn as hell and blind to alternatives, constantly only pushing one player. Heist did that to me last game and left me unable to post cases cause I was busy defending attacks. And like in this game, other townies just didn't care. I hope they will during day 3.
On June 14 2012 06:01 Vivax wrote: I've quit wasting my time with you lazer. Aside from the personal attacks, I think it's pretty obvious that you're tunneling me hard.
A good townie has to keep an overview of all players in the cases he decides to pursue, and that's not what you're doing. On the other hand it allows you to claim you're being consistent in your play if your target flips town. Just try to pull that card.
You are excessively afraid to make other cases. Instead you post high content low information ones (wall of text ugh).
You even admit that you made a weak point. Make good cases or don't make them at all. There is much better information out there you plainly ignore.
LOLOLOLOL. This is ad hominem which was discussed on D1.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem). Yes, I am tunneling you atm. I even said that in my last post so you don't need to say it aswell. Can you give examples of these high content low info posts? Also, yes my point was weak. I said it because your response here was good. I'm not going to push you for something I don't think look suspicious. Doesn't this make sense? You point out one single thing in my whole case(which I even admitt) and therefore you say it's invalid. But you skip all the 1000 points which aren't. The logic here is questionable...
I kinda want to go to bed. Someone want to swap votes onto Vivax?
On June 14 2012 06:07 Vivax wrote: And no, tunneling is not hunting scum. Tunneling is being stubborn as hell and blind to alternatives, constantly only pushing one player. Heist did that to me last game and left me unable to post cases cause I was busy defending attacks. And like in this game, other townies just didn't care. I hope they will during day 3.
I don't care. really, I don't. Please answer my questions. The reason I'm tunneling you is because your answers are crap. Also I don't care about Heist. I care about you. Stop avoiding the questions.
But vivax is definitely a nice second mafia. After Kthez confirms Lazer as town, Vivax claims that Lazer is slipping and acting as Mafia. In the rare case that Grush flips DT, then Kthez is mafia. If Kthez is mafia, then Shiaopi is mafia too for claiming a roleblock. Because there have been no counter claims, this is the last realistic scenario regarding the DT and whatnot, and even in this case, Lazer monkey is also a town.
I don't know where your logic is Vivax, but it sure isn't in this thread.
You are actually right. I didn't think of the DT check, only about the roleblock and the alignment, should I apologize for not thinking of something? If grush did that he would write a book.
I came home and saw another post from the monkey heating me up, and actually this makes me realize my accusations against him are OMGUS. But his case still sucks, and my defense is still solid. Go look that up and decide who of us is most likely saying something funded, he contradicts himself within 1 line of text, and his first list of suspicious players looks extremely scummy. You will find that in list in the first link up there. From a scumhunting point of view before the DT roleclaim happened, he WAS suspicious.
In the case that Grush flips scum and we have no more counter claims: ShiaoPi, Kthez, and Lazer are modconfirmed town. Myself, Vivax, Ha are not. 1 scum, left, i would like to believe that it is ha.
In the case that grush flips DT and we have no more counter claims: ShiaoPi and Kthez are scum
I doubt there will be another counter claim, so i think town has this game sealed quite nicely.
Ofc, in the case that Grush flips vanilla town, we are pretty much screwed.
The day had become increasingly frantic as the remaining survivors argued incessantly amongst themselves. Communication with their remaining foreign allies had completely ceased, and aside from dealing with the hordes of never-ending monsters, they had the continuous threat of murderers from the inside. With 3 of the comrades fallen and nothing but bickering occurring during the day, it seemed fruitless that anything could be done.
"Enough of this squabbling!" shouted grush57, emphatically. "No more sitting here, waiting to die. I have been doing Detective work, and I know conclusively who is the traitor amongst ourselves!!"
Silenced for a moment, the group turned to face grush57 with suspicious eyes."What have you found that we could not? Where is your evidence?"
Turning red for a moment, grush57 frantically exclaimed "All of you do nothing while I have all the answers! I swear, I know the scum when I see it!!" Unconvinced, the group stated "Show us the evidence."
Growing fidgety, grush57 began to shrink away, but the crowd would not let him go that easily. In a split second, the crowd was upon him as grush57 screamed "No! Ok, I lied about the detective work, but I swear I'm innocent! I just wanted to help!" Coldly, the crowd strung him up, only to be let down once again as green blood spilled out.
grush57, the Kingdom Guard was lynched for his lies!
Night 2 has begun! You have 24 hours to send your night actions to both myself and marvellosity. Find some rest; the demons lurk ever closely. Sunrise is at Thursday, Jun 14 11:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
more summary inc: assuming the claims are true (i'm starting to doubt them) Kthez, Shiaopi and Lazer are town. The remaining scum lie in myself, Ha, and Vivax.
Here is why i doubt them: Vivax has been playing better than Lazer all game (from a town perspective). A quick read tells me that much.
This makes me want to believe that Kthez or ShiaoPi, or both are the scum.
here's my question to those who didn't claim: Do you believe the claims?
On June 14 2012 11:38 Release wrote: more summary inc: assuming the claims are true (i'm starting to doubt them) Kthez, Shiaopi and Lazer are town. The remaining scum lie in myself, Ha, and Vivax.
Here is why i doubt them: Vivax has been playing better than Lazer all game (from a town perspective). A quick read tells me that much.
This makes me want to believe that Kthez or ShiaoPi, or both are the scum.
here's my question to those who didn't claim: Do you believe the claims?
Why would you doubt the claims? It is quite a farfetched thought to claim that mafia made a fake DT claim and a fake roleblock claim as well. Your post attempts to discredit the confirmed DT and townie by throwing out incredibly implausible claims, none of which are true. Plus, in the outlandish case that both me and ShiaoPi are lying, that means my confirmation of Supermonkey would also be invalid. And thus, you would be left with nobody confirmed town. In this situation, why would you specifically tunnel me and ShiaoPi?
The remaining scum definitely lies within you, ha, and vivax. For tomorrow I would probably lynch ha as he is the most probable scum at this point.
On June 14 2012 11:38 Release wrote: more summary inc: assuming the claims are true (i'm starting to doubt them) Kthez, Shiaopi and Lazer are town. The remaining scum lie in myself, Ha, and Vivax.
Here is why i doubt them: Vivax has been playing better than Lazer all game (from a town perspective). A quick read tells me that much.
This makes me want to believe that Kthez or ShiaoPi, or both are the scum.
here's my question to those who didn't claim: Do you believe the claims?
Why would you doubt the claims? It is quite a farfetched thought to claim that mafia made a fake DT claim and a fake roleblock claim as well. Your post attempts to discredit the confirmed DT and townie by throwing out incredibly implausible claims, none of which are true. Plus, in the outlandish case that both me and ShiaoPi are lying, that means my confirmation of Supermonkey would also be invalid. And thus, you would be left with nobody confirmed town. In this situation, why would you specifically tunnel me and ShiaoPi?
The remaining scum definitely lies within you, ha, and vivax. For tomorrow I would probably lynch ha as he is the most probable scum at this point.
Your claim was that Lazermonkey was town. I just find this hard to believe because his response to Vivax was so poor in comparison to Vivax's response to him.
Also, i still find it implausible that our DT would check Lazer over Ha. It seemed inevitable that ha would get lynched, and a check on him is far less risky than a check on Lazer.
To be quite honest, i feel like lynching you or lazermonkey rather than one of myself, ha, or vivax.
Yeah, and for the part about you're both lying, i would tunnel you two because you we're and i quote "both lying." Fake claiming in that fashion is manipulative and spreads confusion.
Why would it be implausible that I would not check ha? We had deduced ha's allegiances at that point through the day analysis, and it was much more intelligent for me to investigate someone like Lazermonkey, who I had a weak read on and was integral in the mislynch of Zen_Man
Release, I can see from where you are arguing, Vivax' play does feel better than Lazermonkeys, I would wait for the nighthit to make your judgement. Me being roleblocked is hard to proof, but what would scum get from claiming to be RB'ed? I believe grush's defense/claim was so bad it would have got him lynched anyway...
On to the topic of lynching day 3 I would say ha is most probably scum by now, if KtheZ gets hit tonight at least we will have some confirmed townie, which should help at LYLO.
On June 14 2012 19:21 ShiaoPi wrote: Me being roleblocked is hard to proof, but what would scum get from claiming to be RB'ed?
Well, with this reasoning he would sink on your scum meter... Everything mafia do is cause confusion and this would add to the choas.
Not only that, but the way this setup works is very vulnerable to scum claims: we may have 0 rb 1 medic, in which our medic has died, or a 1 rb 1 medic and 1 dt
the difference in "roles" is 2, and there are exactly 2 scum alive. The rest of us are VT (in the 0 rb 1 medic) so we can't exactly argue with that. However in the 1 rb 1 medic and 1 dt, even if the real DT claiming now, we don't have a ML to use so ...
Since we only had 1 ML at the time of claiming, 2 fake claims (and in theory, 2 counterclaims) would leave us needing 2 ML to be safe, and this is the reason why that if we did have a real DT, i believe that he would've stayed silent and tried to breadcrumb us the result of his check in his posts rather than openly opposing Grush's ridiculous claim.
On June 14 2012 19:21 ShiaoPi wrote: Me being roleblocked is hard to proof, but what would scum get from claiming to be RB'ed?
Well, with this reasoning he would sink on your scum meter... Everything mafia do is cause confusion and this would add to the choas.
Not only that, but the way this setup works is very vulnerable to scum claims: we may have 0 rb 1 medic, in which our medic has died, or a 1 rb 1 medic and 1 dt
the difference in "roles" is 2, and there are exactly 2 scum alive. The rest of us are VT (in the 0 rb 1 medic) so we can't exactly argue with that. However in the 1 rb 1 medic and 1 dt, even if the real DT claiming now, we don't have a ML to use so ...
Since we only had 1 ML at the time of claiming, 2 fake claims (and in theory, 2 counterclaims) would leave us needing 2 ML to be safe, and this is the reason why that if we did have a real DT, i believe that he would've stayed silent and tried to breadcrumb us the result of his check in his posts rather than openly opposing Grush's ridiculous claim.
How bout you just wait till the day ends and I die then to confirm all these suspicions of yours
Here that pattern repeats again. He defends from Release, and votes for grush based on something which has been repeated over and over by whole town. On the other hand, there's really not that much to say about grush, his play was...original. The point isn't as strong, but the repeating pattern 'make cases against 1, vote 2 for no reason' is kinda suspicious.
He has been playing in incredibly inconsistent way regarding his very few votes, while mantaining a style trying to post as few as he can. He only starts engaging into discussion when there are townies pressuring him, and even then he keeps his posts as short as possible.
Please consider what I wrote just now if I die tonight. If I survive, I will reevaluate the case against him with more information. For sure he's a lategame lurker when there is so much information available. He didn't post any lengthy cases yet, just defending and bandwagoning.
Here that pattern repeats again. He defends from Release, and votes for grush based on something which has been repeated over and over by whole town. On the other hand, there's really not that much to say about grush, his play was...original. The point isn't as strong, but the repeating pattern 'make cases against 1, vote 2 for no reason' is kinda suspicious.
He has been playing in incredibly inconsistent way regarding his very few votes, while mantaining a style trying to post as few as he can. He only starts engaging into discussion when there are townies pressuring him, and even then he keeps his posts as short as possible.
Please consider what I wrote just now if I die tonight. If I survive, I will reevaluate the case against him with more information. For sure he's a lategame lurker when there is so much information available. He didn't post any lengthy cases yet, just defending and bandwagoning.
Tbh, the death will be either Kthez (DT) or myself(VT), since we've pretty much split the town into two sides
Shiaopi + lazer + kthez myself + ha + vivax
If i die, Kthez dies the next day, understand?
Day 3: I would expect that Kthez will have another night "check" to report to everyone so pay close attention to what he says and whether or not it makes sense. I'm just going to put his out there: to whoever the real DT is, if we have one, is do not check my alignment. Check either Kthez or Ha. Those checks would provide the most information to us.
One thing that Kthez might say if he doesn't die is that he was RBed. I would look at this with suspicion because it is just an excuse to not have to substantiate his claim to be a DT.
Nowing that Kthez hasn't made a big pre-death post (yet, this one i would wait until 3:59 PST), it probably means that he is hiding / has something to hide, and is pretty much what zen_man and Grush did because we lynched them (because they were acting scummy). This would be no different.
That being said, a detailed analysis of whom you (kthez) suspect in your pre-death post may change my mind, as well as that of Ha and whoever else doubts the claims.
What i want to ask you all now, is who are your picks for the scumteam as of now? I think i have made it pretty clear that i am heavily favoring Kthez + Shiaopi, for reasons already mentioned,
Or, If Kthez's "final" post manages to convince me (it would have to be quite convincing indeed), i would have to retract my statements about him and shiaopi and go with ha and lazer (I honestly just don't believe that lazer could be town while vivax is not)
Really think about this question. I don't want half-assed answers like X and Y because OMG they Scum. Provide reasoning (not necessarily analysis, i made this post way to late in the day to have time for that) and make sure that if required, you can back it up with analysis (if questioned)
You'll only have abotu 20 minutes after i finish this post to answer the question but i really do want as many people as possible to answer it. And one more thing; read this whole post.
We have spent a large proportion of the second day cycle bickering amongst ourselves after the grush/me roleclaim. Throughout this entire series of dialogue not one of us had taken notice of any "lurking" being done, which can be attributed to release's extreme post amount (which isn't a bad thing). Throughout the second day, ha did an amazing job of diffusing responsibility off of himself. He only posted with contentless posts, and the grush/Me claim created enough controversy to be able to throw him off our radars. Not only has ha not contributed to town whatsoever within the recent days, he has laid extremely low, which is a great scumtell to me, since the lynches within these few days are extremely integral to our victory.
Since I know that me and Lazermonkey are town, the mafia definitely lie within release, ha, ShiaoPi, and vivax.
Release has been a very good poster within the few days. I do not understand his recent accusations but his play during the recent days has proved to me as a great pro-town read.
ShiaoPi I am still unsure of, but since I am DT and he claimed the roleblock (without counterclaims) it is within reason to believe that he is town.
Ha is almost certainly mafia, as detailed above.
The last person on the list is vivax. Although vivax has responded to Lazermonkey's attacks with decent responses of his own, by process of elimination, vivax is probably the second mafia to town. However, my scum read against him relies on the others being town within a reasonable doubt.
Thus, I can conclude that the mafia team is ha and vivax, and the next day lynch should be ha. Looking at release's post, it is definitely a possiblity that I will be roleblocked this night and spared, because then I cannot confirm anything to town. It is important that you all listen to my analysis so we can get through this for a victory
Here that pattern repeats again. He defends from Release, and votes for grush based on something which has been repeated over and over by whole town. On the other hand, there's really not that much to say about grush, his play was...original. The point isn't as strong, but the repeating pattern 'make cases against 1, vote 2 for no reason' is kinda suspicious.
He has been playing in incredibly inconsistent way regarding his very few votes, while mantaining a style trying to post as few as he can. He only starts engaging into discussion when there are townies pressuring him, and even then he keeps his posts as short as possible.
Please consider what I wrote just now if I die tonight. If I survive, I will reevaluate the case against him with more information. For sure he's a lategame lurker when there is so much information available. He didn't post any lengthy cases yet, just defending and bandwagoning.
Tbh, the death will be either Kthez (DT) or myself(VT), since we've pretty much split the town into two sides
Shiaopi + lazer + kthez myself + ha + vivax
If i die, Kthez dies the next day, understand?
Day 3: I would expect that Kthez will have another night "check" to report to everyone so pay close attention to what he says and whether or not it makes sense. I'm just going to put his out there: to whoever the real DT is, if we have one, is do not check my alignment. Check either Kthez or Ha. Those checks would provide the most information to us.
One thing that Kthez might say if he doesn't die is that he was RBed. I would look at this with suspicion because it is just an excuse to not have to substantiate his claim to be a DT.
Nowing that Kthez hasn't made a big pre-death post (yet, this one i would wait until 3:59 PST), it probably means that he is hiding / has something to hide, and is pretty much what zen_man and Grush did because we lynched them (because they were acting scummy). This would be no different.
That being said, a detailed analysis of whom you (kthez) suspect in your pre-death post may change my mind, as well as that of Ha and whoever else doubts the claims.
What i want to ask you all now, is who are your picks for the scumteam as of now? I think i have made it pretty clear that i am heavily favoring Kthez + Shiaopi, for reasons already mentioned,
Or, If Kthez's "final" post manages to convince me (it would have to be quite convincing indeed), i would have to retract my statements about him and shiaopi and go with ha and lazer (I honestly just don't believe that lazer could be town while vivax is not)
Really think about this question. I don't want half-assed answers like X and Y because OMG they Scum. Provide reasoning (not necessarily analysis, i made this post way to late in the day to have time for that) and make sure that if required, you can back it up with analysis (if questioned)
You'll only have abotu 20 minutes after i finish this post to answer the question but i really do want as many people as possible to answer it. And one more thing; read this whole post.
Kthez, you better watch your back.
Release your support in the consecutive mislynches and your tunneling makes me very sad that I am in your sights.
So my first check was on Vivax. Release seemed to think that a check on anyone other than grush or ha236 was a bad check. I don't agree with this at all. First off, this is a noob game and their play could be explained by them being inexperienced. Or rather grush, because I never really had a scum read on Ha236 anyway. Also, in case that were to show town I would either need to claim in order to save one of the weaker townies which means no more checks for me or I had to defend them while they were acting suspicious without me claiming. I would either risk a lynch of them anyway or even a lynch on myself for defending a suspicious person and swaping my read super hard(said I was willing to lynch grush D1, Wants to stop the lynch on him D2...) My reason Vivax for this was because of his play. He didn't apear clearly scummy with his ''nice'' posts. But still, his unwillingness to take a stance anywhere. This wasn't his first game so he should know the basics of town play. I didn't find anything that pointed in that direction.Vivax showed as scum!
Regarding the second scum, I am 99,9% sure this is Kthez. He have faked a DT claim at this point. I'm not even sure you need any more evidence than this. He even claimed me to be town. What townie would do such a thing? My guess is that Kthez was feeling the hard pressure against him and when he saw grush claim DT, he took the opportunity as he felt most people would rather belive him than grush in a 1vs1. This would lead into a 2-1 where Vivax could've gotten lots of town cred by bussing him. If Kthez is a townie, he is the worst one ever. Btw, I decided to check Kthez this night.
I don't have a way to 100% confirm myself as detective so you will not know if my claim here is true or not. But you can be sure that either me or Vivax is scum here. I will not really push the case vs Vivax here either. In case I die tonight, you will all know I spoke the truth. If I survive, I will be able to push the case against him for 48 hours. I recomend you guys to take a very close look at their filters as well as mine and try to think you is the most likely scum at this point. Essentially if I survive the night, D3 will come down to a lynch on me vs a lynch on Vivax/Kthez. If I die, it's insta GG, town wins!
When writing this, I feel I probebly could've posted this way earlier. My head was just sooo full of fuck with two guys claiming DT when it was obvious not only that both of them were lying but also that one of them HAD to be town.
As you say Release, it all depends on how the night hit plays out. I would assume scum would like to keep us in the dark by simply RB'ing the DT and just go with a kill on you, since if people follow your post they would lynch Kthez next, which would be game over if he is in fact DT.
What I do not understand is how you can say that town is split right now. The only thing which connects me to KtheZ is my claim of being RB'ed. There is nothing else tying me to him and close to nothing that ties me to Lazer. If you want to call something a split, the thing remotely close to it is Vivax vs. Lazer and ha vs. Release. These are the "hard" stances you have taken until now.
The Vivax vs. Lazer case does not convince me either way and ha's play has not really improved, sure he posted one case against Release, but it was fairly weak (at least in my opinion).
At the moment my feeling right now is that it is either ha+Vivax or Release+Vivax.
You might think it weird, but fuck I am running out of time, if I am alive you will get further reasoning
Here that pattern repeats again. He defends from Release, and votes for grush based on something which has been repeated over and over by whole town. On the other hand, there's really not that much to say about grush, his play was...original. The point isn't as strong, but the repeating pattern 'make cases against 1, vote 2 for no reason' is kinda suspicious.
He has been playing in incredibly inconsistent way regarding his very few votes, while mantaining a style trying to post as few as he can. He only starts engaging into discussion when there are townies pressuring him, and even then he keeps his posts as short as possible.
Please consider what I wrote just now if I die tonight. If I survive, I will reevaluate the case against him with more information. For sure he's a lategame lurker when there is so much information available. He didn't post any lengthy cases yet, just defending and bandwagoning.
Tbh, the death will be either Kthez (DT) or myself(VT), since we've pretty much split the town into two sides
Shiaopi + lazer + kthez myself + ha + vivax
If i die, Kthez dies the next day, understand?
Day 3: I would expect that Kthez will have another night "check" to report to everyone so pay close attention to what he says and whether or not it makes sense. I'm just going to put his out there: to whoever the real DT is, if we have one, is do not check my alignment. Check either Kthez or Ha. Those checks would provide the most information to us.
One thing that Kthez might say if he doesn't die is that he was RBed. I would look at this with suspicion because it is just an excuse to not have to substantiate his claim to be a DT.
Nowing that Kthez hasn't made a big pre-death post (yet, this one i would wait until 3:59 PST), it probably means that he is hiding / has something to hide, and is pretty much what zen_man and Grush did because we lynched them (because they were acting scummy). This would be no different.
That being said, a detailed analysis of whom you (kthez) suspect in your pre-death post may change my mind, as well as that of Ha and whoever else doubts the claims.
What i want to ask you all now, is who are your picks for the scumteam as of now? I think i have made it pretty clear that i am heavily favoring Kthez + Shiaopi, for reasons already mentioned,
Or, If Kthez's "final" post manages to convince me (it would have to be quite convincing indeed), i would have to retract my statements about him and shiaopi and go with ha and lazer (I honestly just don't believe that lazer could be town while vivax is not)
Really think about this question. I don't want half-assed answers like X and Y because OMG they Scum. Provide reasoning (not necessarily analysis, i made this post way to late in the day to have time for that) and make sure that if required, you can back it up with analysis (if questioned)
You'll only have abotu 20 minutes after i finish this post to answer the question but i really do want as many people as possible to answer it. And one more thing; read this whole post.
Kthez, you better watch your back.
Release your support in the consecutive mislynches and your tunneling makes me very sad that I am in your sights.
You should read more carefully so you can find out what kind of defense i want.
Here that pattern repeats again. He defends from Release, and votes for grush based on something which has been repeated over and over by whole town. On the other hand, there's really not that much to say about grush, his play was...original. The point isn't as strong, but the repeating pattern 'make cases against 1, vote 2 for no reason' is kinda suspicious.
He has been playing in incredibly inconsistent way regarding his very few votes, while mantaining a style trying to post as few as he can. He only starts engaging into discussion when there are townies pressuring him, and even then he keeps his posts as short as possible.
Please consider what I wrote just now if I die tonight. If I survive, I will reevaluate the case against him with more information. For sure he's a lategame lurker when there is so much information available. He didn't post any lengthy cases yet, just defending and bandwagoning.
Tbh, the death will be either Kthez (DT) or myself(VT), since we've pretty much split the town into two sides
Shiaopi + lazer + kthez myself + ha + vivax
If i die, Kthez dies the next day, understand?
Day 3: I would expect that Kthez will have another night "check" to report to everyone so pay close attention to what he says and whether or not it makes sense. I'm just going to put his out there: to whoever the real DT is, if we have one, is do not check my alignment. Check either Kthez or Ha. Those checks would provide the most information to us.
One thing that Kthez might say if he doesn't die is that he was RBed. I would look at this with suspicion because it is just an excuse to not have to substantiate his claim to be a DT.
Nowing that Kthez hasn't made a big pre-death post (yet, this one i would wait until 3:59 PST), it probably means that he is hiding / has something to hide, and is pretty much what zen_man and Grush did because we lynched them (because they were acting scummy). This would be no different.
That being said, a detailed analysis of whom you (kthez) suspect in your pre-death post may change my mind, as well as that of Ha and whoever else doubts the claims.
What i want to ask you all now, is who are your picks for the scumteam as of now? I think i have made it pretty clear that i am heavily favoring Kthez + Shiaopi, for reasons already mentioned,
Or, If Kthez's "final" post manages to convince me (it would have to be quite convincing indeed), i would have to retract my statements about him and shiaopi and go with ha and lazer (I honestly just don't believe that lazer could be town while vivax is not)
Really think about this question. I don't want half-assed answers like X and Y because OMG they Scum. Provide reasoning (not necessarily analysis, i made this post way to late in the day to have time for that) and make sure that if required, you can back it up with analysis (if questioned)
You'll only have abotu 20 minutes after i finish this post to answer the question but i really do want as many people as possible to answer it. And one more thing; read this whole post.
The Prince of Persia was exhausted. Though it had only been 2 days, it had been 2 days of non-stop, vicious fighting, and his peerless strength was starting to falter. He he destroyed hordes, defeated towering grotesques, and traversed the deadliest of traps. Yet an unmovable obstacle had finally cornered him off. Behind him, an impassable cliff. Before him, an unfathomable monster.
He thought of his love The_Zen_Man, whom he had horribly betrayed out of misguided information. He thought of his father, whom he had been forced to put down. He thought of the fallen, slain and murdered without a second thought. He knew he had done what he could; it was up to his comrades to win the war, not him. As his life flashed before his eyes, he felt content knowing that he had done what he could to save the world.
"If only I had more time..."
The monster approached. Feeling his blood boil with that familiar furor, he felt the warrior within unleashed, one last time, as they clashed in glorious combat.
Lazermonkey, the Prince of Persia (Town Detective) was defeated! Day 3 has begun! You have until Saturday, Jun 16 11:00am GMT (GMT+00:00) to cast your votes. With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. 48 hours until sundown.
this is Lazer's breadcrumb btw if you didn't know:
On June 12 2012 21:44 Lazermonkey wrote: The case on Vivax
Vivax post count is okay given that he he missed basically the first 24 hours or so of the game so note that I'm not actually usuing his lurking as a reason for his suspicion but rather the content in his posts.He have been playing insanely passive up untill this point. You should all check out his filter. This guy has during D1 pretty much not taken a clear stance anywhere. + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 21:12 Vivax wrote: Good day guys.
I opened this thread with the expectation of everyone pointing his finger at me for lurking so heavily the first half of day 1, for which I apologize now.
I have had a REALLY shit day yesterday, and I didn't have any motivation whatsoever to get into the internet. I am not very willing to specify what happened yesterday since this is still the internet, I'll just mention that it involved me driving. Now that it's Sunday, I can lean back a bit, gonna have quite some shit going on from tomorrow on, but I feel that I can keep contributing to this game in spite of the circumstances, but don't expect me to be online whenever you are.
Oh, and you should also know where I'm located to know the times I'm posting at: Austria/CET.
Time to start Top-down:
Like I already mentioned, I expected everyone to suspect me cause of policy lynching. Surprisingly, that's not the case. The policy talk quickly resulted into Release squeezing grush like a lemon throughout the game, but grush results to be a pretty dry one, just releasing unjuicy drops which only help to fortify the suspicions against him.
Frankly I think Release has a really aggressive playstyle reminding me of my own last game, it's a great way to gain transparent information from other people and to a lesser extent from the accused ones, but also involves risks of all kind.
The subsequent posts regaridng this case all revolve around the initial posts as tells. My verdict is: Release looks like he's tunneling pretty hard with the aggressive style, on the other hand I have to give him credit for getting out so much information from this case, town really IS busy due to this. Grush, well, if he's town I would be able to understand his somewhat angry, resignated answers as follow-up. If he's scum I would also be able to understand his high amount of one-liners with the least possible amount of information. However, his first posts really weren't helpful to town, so I'll treat him as suspicious, but not definitely guilty. I feel it's too early for me to cast a vote on him, he kind of reminds me of + Show Spoiler +
superouman
last game, but less lurking. If he's the only alternative to a No lynch, you'll have my vote nontheless.
I'm going to post more very soon, I'd prefer to keep my posts focused on single cases since I have to post a lot at once.
The first post by Vivax. Note that this is a long post. Note what he is saying. Well, what is he saying? Release is pushing grush hard but still he think it's good. grush is strange but he could very well be town. He is willing to lynch grush, at least under some circumstances. What did he REALLY say here? Remember my first post where I talked about different types of lurkers? This is the type who writes hellofapost and still very little content. + Show Spoiler +
On June 10 2012 22:22 Vivax wrote: Okay, I've been doing a stance analysis on the grush case and here's my promised post:
s0lstice prefers to go on with policy discussion in the first posts and goes on with it until he outs for the night. When he's back, he completely drops grush and the policy discussion and puts his FoS on ha2etc.
Release thinks grush is guilty. Pretty much everyone agreed on grushs post about 'nothing to discuss' being a really bad suggestion for town play. Many dropped the case or defended grush in spite of this.
KtheZ notices the overconfidence of Release against grush and points out the danger of tunneling. But he also believes grush to have made scummy moves. I find his semi-calculations pretty strange tbh, but I guess it's his way of FoSing.
ShiaoPi has one post in which he says people should stop tunneling grush and instead pressure ha2etc. . What strikes me here is that he wants to pressure ha2etc. for actually defending grush. I find this to be contradictory.
Lazermonkey notices grush's suspicious posts and focuses on the people defending him in consequence after placing his FoS on grush.
ha2etc. soft-defends grush.
The_Zen_Man soft-defends grush.
I'm keeping my summary of the swedes in this thread rather short cause there are complex cases developing around them and I think these deserve an in-depth analysis before a summary.
So here is a summary post. Contains our opinions about grush. Not his own tho.
Guys, we're at close danger of a no-lynch. I'm not very satisfied with ha236 as option cause I find his first posts regarding Lazermonkey and Release to be true, but on the other hand he didn't make a single case except for OMGUS ones now in the end and instead only spent time defending grush and himself.
It was a pretty bad day 1 imo, and it can get even worse if we will have to further lurk in the dark, you'll have my vote on ha236 for the sake of the lynch, but be aware of the fact that I'll gladly switch it for any other majority.
##vote ha236
@ s0lstice
odd analysis? To me town play seems to be messed up atm and you should actually thank me for getting a bit of transparency in here. Every single and good player would make such a summary in a case before going on and accusing single persons. I doubt one would want to play with a narrow sight.
So he does not like ha236 lynch. I'm okay with that. I'm even okay with that he says he is willing to lynch into Ha236 if he needs to, in order to archive majority. What I'm NOT okey with is that he still doesn't give an option. He is fast on on dismiss both grush and ha236 as targets but what does he think himself? Still he havn't given one scumread himself. + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2012 06:21 Vivax wrote: Needless summarization? That is the type of summarization a good townie uses to get an idea of the connections someone had once he flips. If grush gets lynched, you can look up my summary and check the connections between grush and other players. Just cause you don't see the use doesn't mean it doesn't have any.
Btw, I can prove you are being selective since I didn't see you pick on the following summary yet. I just wonder if you are being selective on purpose cause raising suspicion on me would further increase the chance of a No lynch or if it's by mistake. While working on Lazermonkeys case against The_Zen_Man i found another 'needless summarization':
On June 11 2012 04:47 Lazermonkey wrote: So right now, we have not too much time untill lynching. We need to get something done here. With nine players there are 5(Lol) players that have received FoS/Votes unless I'm misstaken. These players are: grush Ha236 me(Lazermonkey) The_Zen_Man s0Lstice s0Lstice were also suspicious of KtheZ recently, although no FoS were placed.
Regarding The_Zen_Man case:
I especially liked LazerMans point regarding the contradiction between the FoS on him, but the vote on grush. It looks like The_Zen_Man doesn't believe much in his own case. We also have to consider that The_Zen_Man mostly used ha236 points already posted to soft-defend grush. That would allow scum to deflect attention to ha236 again in case gursh flips green.
That's about the latest points made by Lazermonkey, now to my own analysis, I'll be especially focusing on The_Zen_Man's first posts:
On June 09 2012 18:11 The_Zen_Man wrote: Hey guys, just woke up(time difference suck).
1:I have read some of the grush-release discussion, and i can say that i did found Grush comment weird. Also some of his later post is also strange. I will post a analysis on him later.
2:But release, you are going against him to hard. You said it yourself before, that your comment is useless to anyone but grush. If it's like that, you should let others give their opinions about him, and focus on someone else for a bit.
3:Also, as to my opinions on lynching, i agree that in case there is a hard lurker and no scum reads we should lynch the lurker, as he is not contributing anyways. But lynching with not much information (like d1) will probably result in a misslynch. We still gain information even is there is no lynch, by observing how players act before lynch, what they vote for, reaction after lynch, etc.
1. Here's the broken promise: We still have no analysis on grush from you. In a lynch all liars environment you would already be in huge trouble.
2. Without the analysis, you proceed to soft-defend him. The problem about your posts is the way you do that: You tell Release to focus on someone else. Imagine if he suddenly switched target like you propose, that would make him look quite inconsistent...and scummy.
3. The opinions on lynching. I mean, seriously? This part confuses the hell out of me. We should lynch lurkers, but on the other hand you say it will probably result in a mislynch. Then you actually say that we might gain information without a lynch. How is that so? Both points lack reasoning behind them and contradict the other points in your post. Your opinion on lynching policy is wishy washy and no opinion, you seem to promote everything at once.
The next posts show your support of ha, always disproving points others make against grush, but at the same time you emphasize your beliefs that he looks scummy.
On June 10 2012 17:35 The_Zen_Man wrote: I really don't know how ha got to be one of the "top" scum reads on this game. His play does not seem scummy at all to me. I think the best d1 lynch is grush, and then we can think about how to proceed once he flips.
Once ha gets into the crosshair, all of sudden you think it's best to drop all your defenses of grush and to lynch him.
When Lazermonkey actually notices your suspicious behavior:
On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: The case against Lazermonkey:
First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own.
I think this quotation of mine reminds that he does have a point about that. You took many of the points about grushs defense from ha236, allowing you to deflect responsibility in case they turn out to be wrong.
Looking at your and ha2's posts, your stances are soft and inconsistent as opposed to his, so I'll let you know: If there's a choice between a majority on you and a majority on ha2, I will pick the one against you.
##FoS The_Zen_Man
His first real case on someone. This time he gives some actual opnions, which is good. However, why the FoS? Why not a vote? He first agrees with alot of my points about Zen_Man and also brings up a couple of new ones. All in all, the whole posts are filled with accusations yet he only FoS him. I feel like he is testing the waters here. + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2012 07:20 Vivax wrote: I've got the vote for Zen_Man ready, I'll give him about 30 minutes more time to post a defense, then I will proceed to vote for him.
We have a majority on him, that's for sure. I think even 6, not 5. Count me in in case he doesn't post a nukeproof defense.
Strange post. You said earlier that in case of majority on Zen_Man, you would vote him. Yet you don't. Contradiction here. Vivax finally decides to vote Zen_Man anyway but only after both Ha236 and s0lstice have laid down their votes. + Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2012 20:33 Vivax wrote: Sucks that s0lstice got lynched, he was one of the few active posters here. With people being lazy it's even easier for mafia to choose the active ones to get killed first. GG and thanks for the activity yo.
Let's get back to the real stuff, I think we have a good clue of the direction to move into:
I don't read ha2 scum yet, but I find his silence since the mislynch and the nightkill to be strange. And by silence I mean absence of good townie play. He's still a suspect who needs a decisive defense, and he didn't make any cases outside of OMGUS ones. Need people to come out and play, that's why you signed in for...if you are townie
Same goes for grush, since the attention switched away from him he decided to go on holidays. Still no proper townie work there, just short posts with short resumes. Wtf:
On June 12 2012 09:25 grush57 wrote: Damn, they killed one of my town reads. Well, I'm fine with ha or KtheZ.
You are asking for a lynch here, scum or not. Now he's suddenly one of your town reads, nice that you tell us once he's dead, everyone could say what you said. But even better, you don't post a single reason for you thinking that ha or KTheZ should be good lynch candidates, you are implying that others should do the work for you, and you even announce yourself for a jump on a bandwagon against these two. That's either a scumslip or really really bad townie play.
KTheZ shows activity when he has to. But like with the latter two, I feel he's being lazy about it, aside from the fact that I don't like his way of shaping his defense post, it's a wall of text.
I have no decisive scumreads yet. But I'll pick one of the three based on his post quality, activity levels and gut feeling:
##Vote grush57
The tone is this post is sooo... I don't know, different? You finally give out reads. In the end of your post tho, you say you have no decisive scumreads tho. You still vote grush right away. Think about how hard it was for him to vote Zen_Man last night even tho he had loads of suspicion on him and compare to this. wtf. You would also fine with lynching any of theese 3. I feel you're almost wanting to lynch for the sake of lynching here. We don't lynch because of that, we lynch because we want to kill scum. At least one of these persons must be townie but you are still okay with lynching any of them. And your motivations for lynching any of them is kinda meh. Your problems with both Ha and KTheZ seems to be their activity level and not the content of their posts.
Overall, this guy has basically taken no strong stances anywhere. He makes huge posts with little to no content. All players he have put up this ''weak'' pressure on are those who are already under heavy fire. First grush, then Ha236, then Zen_Man and lastly KTheZ. With all these players(maybe not Zen_Man tho) he basically says ''I'm willing to lynch if necesary but I'm not sure he is scum''. This is classic bandwagon play. ##Vote: Vivax
You were tunneling a lot of townies in the beginning, and in the end you couldn't make up your mind. You caused a lot of confusion by pushing so many different cases, then constantly backing off.
No Release, if someone gets roleblocked then they just say so. This is information that town doesn't have that it now has. You also need to not tunnel. You were on ha constantly but never reevaluated or thought of anything else. I criticise because I think you could be a good town player, but sometimes you need to take a step back and reevaluate, and listen to others.
On the blue claims - grush's fakeclaim turned out good for town, but i don't think it was a good play. It became a good play because KtheZ counterclaimed and a real DT still existed. grush was already heavily suspicious, so the correct play for KtheZ I think would have been to try to argue your way out of the situation without counterclaiming.
Lazer - you could probably have worked out grush was town. It's a silly play for town, but it's INSANE for mafia. And then think, if you were a vanilla townie and you were fake-accused by a DT (think - there are no millers, you know you are townie, therefore the claim MUST be fake) would you counterclaim to clear yourself? Almost 100% the answer is no you would not, you would know the guy is lying and argue about that. Therefore once the counterclaim in you knew who the 2 scum were.
However you presented your case well in the end (although you mislynched first). The check on Vivax night 1 was of course excellent. I can't remember who said it day 1, but they said Vivax wasn't playing like he played as town last game, and they were absolutely correct. So great check. In this regard both mafia suffered from playing scummily. Vivax got caught by Lazer, and although grush's claim was nuts, he effectively claimed because he was sure KtheZ was scum from his play too.
Another point of amusement was the town medic and DT going at each other day 1. Unfortunate but funny.
Edit: to ha236 - if you're being mercilessly tunneled, at some point you need to just ignore it and go about your own business of scumhunting. Your whole game was spent in an argument with Release. It will probably be very hard to convince him that you're town, but if you do some nice scumhunting then the rest of town will start to see you as townie, which is what matters. As the game went it didn't matter in the end, but you could easily have turned into an easy mislynch for scum. Don't take this too harshly, it's very hard not to react how you did. I was tunneled similarly in LIII by BlazingHand and we got into several very heated (and less polite!) exchanges as well. But in the end I managed to make my play pro-town enough that town was ignoring him and he had to drop it.
You guys didn't understand what i was doing night 2. I played like shit to survive. Was there a DT? Ofc. Therefore it would make sense to have someone get RBed. I doubt this obvious statement, and Kthez points out i'm playing badly. I make an extremely obvious "dont wory kthez" so kthez will spare my life.
Also, as i was posting that big bullshit thing against ha236, i confirmed my suspicions that he was town (I was never planning to lynch both Grush and Ha) and i was trying to elicit a response from Kthez, ShiaoPi, and Vivax. Kthez was too complacent with my case against ha, which confirmed that LM was indeed the DT (from his breadcrumb) earlier, and he was scum. ShiaoPi and Vivax both stayed pretty silent so i had no idea who was the other scum. I was honestly a little disappointed that LM made a poor case against Vivax and got myself into this WIFOM about who he checked last : "he makes a poor case against vivax which will get shut down, so i guess he is hinting at Shiaopi, BUT maybe he is just doing the obvious thing and making a case against the person who he checked."
I can see how my day2 and particularly night 2 caused a lot of confusion though.
I really enjoyed watching this game! Make sure to sign up for other games around TL Mafia, including non-newbie games if you're feeling comfortable doing so.
Also, counter-claiming a claimed blue is very risky as scum, since unless town is at LYLO they might just lynch both of you. Also, fake-claiming blue is very risky as town, since the real DT could counter-claim you and both of you might get lynched...
grush claimed DT against me, and I thought he really was DT, so I resigned myself to death and counterclaimed, hoping to get grush the DT lynched and then I would be lynched the next day, but it would pave the path for vivax to screw with town. Basically I had to make a quick decision so I chose to claim DT since I was fucked in my opinion.
Course, when grush appeared to rescind and flipped townie, we scum got our panties in a knot and had to make sure we shot whoever was NOT dt. I was sure that the DT would claim at night, and we tried to NOT hit the dt so I could push a lynch on him the next day.
Course the DT claimed but we didnt have enough time to switch our vote, because he posted in the last minute (which is quite a gimmick in my opinion).
Basically in almost all scenarios I was screwed unless Grush was town claiming to be DT, which to me seemed pretty improbable
I had to counter claim blue because grush claimed to have check me as scum (which I was). So I figured he really was the DT. Thus I wanted to get town to mislynch grush and then be lynched the next day, which would provide favorable odds for vivax
On June 16 2012 05:17 KtheZ wrote: Course the DT claimed but we didnt have enough time to switch our vote, because he posted in the last minute (which is quite a gimmick in my opinion).
Actually, some games (WBG's games in particular) have a specific amount of time at the end of the night where nobody can share their night actions but people can still talk. There are different philosophies on whether or not this sort of thing is good-- it was discussed a bit in the Idea Factory (link) if you want to chip in your 2 cents.
Bad luck guys, you were outplayed by a cohesive town. There were really only a few people who looked scummy all game and that makes winning hard. I think the counter-claim was the right thing to do. No town would expect a VT to claim DT and mafia knew there was a DT in the game. Given that information if someone claims DT with a red check in a two mafia game it is worth the gamble. Why would expect Grush to not be the DT? As the K man said, the plan was to get people to put the two of them on "opposite" teams.
Once the real DT checked Vivax, it was game over.
To my mafia buddies, I still think you needed to be more proactive. What killed you this game was people were never sure of your alignment which means you are vulnerable to a case, a check or a process of elimination. You need to push town to do what you want them to do, especially if you are not clearly "town" in the early game. Look at Release, he pushed a misslynch through on Day 1 virtually on his own, but he was never really suspected of being mafia. Why? Because he was clear and forthright with his reads and his actions.
It was not a bad first try I think you came up against a town with enough solid players to make it really hard. Well done townies and to Vivax and KtheZ, better luck next time.
Yea I can't say I wouldn't have done the same in your shoes KtheZ.
Also Vivax, your meta as scum was noticeably different. I was debating on who to build a case on (between you and KtheZ) before the end of night 1...I ended up going with KtheZ because I figured that in a vacuum he would have a harder time sloughing it off. Also, your strong tone in your defenses planted just enough doubt in my mind. It's definitely an asset you have. The way you write makes it easy to confirm you when you are town, and difficult to doubt you when you're scum. If you had posted more, I'm not sure I would have suspected you at all.
Your additions to the case on Zen_Man was instrumental in my derp fest at the end of day1. I read his filter, read him as town, then read your shit again and then it was all a blur past that.
All in all you guys did very well, especially considering you were against a DT who nailed a scum check on night 1. I look forward to more games with both of you.
It wasn't my itention to look like the DT at all. I was trying to look like a scum, by posting multiple soft defense of Kthez and very wishy-washy behavior. In the end, Kthez was supposed to try to buddy up to me and i would call him out but after the NK but they ended up shooting the DT, so my plan never came into fruition
On June 16 2012 05:17 KtheZ wrote: Course the DT claimed but we didnt have enough time to switch our vote, because he posted in the last minute (which is quite a gimmick in my opinion).
Actually, some games (WBG's games in particular) have a specific amount of time at the end of the night where nobody can share their night actions but people can still talk. There are different philosophies on whether or not this sort of thing is good-- it was discussed a bit in the Idea Factory (link) if you want to chip in your 2 cents.
GG town, well played. Scum you played okay aswell : ).
My thoughts on this game. D1: So grush is under heavy fire. I didn't understand the way he played at all but I wasn't to convinvced that he scum. He didn't play town but his play didn't make any sense out of scum perspective either... Ha is the next one to be grilled. While I didn't like the way he played he simply seemed noob-town to me. I was quite sure he was town at this point. I'm the first one to pick up the case on Zen_Man, I don't regret this really. His play were the most scummy out of all players in the game at that time. Sad that he flipped medic but quite ironic that both of the games blues were accusing each other of being scum. N1: So my thought procces were something like this: s0lstice looked town, Release looked kinda town and I didn't really want to waste a check on him. Ha I was kinda convinced that he was town aswell despite his play but even then I was considering checking him. However, I felt that the high chance of him being lynched the next day would make it a weaker check. Same thing with grush. So was left with ShiaoPi, Vivax and Kthez. Vivax and Shiaopi were very passive the first day. Both of them were avoiding to take any clear stances. Kthez was at this point posting more of substance but I felt every time he posted, I didn't make alot of sence. He also scumslipped quite alot. In the end I kinda flipped a coin to decide which of theese three I would check : ). D2: My original plan was to push Vivax without claiming. However, then the thread blew up with 2 people claiming DT. You guys can't even realise the amount of mindfuck that were going on in my head here. I probebly should've claimed right when grush backed off. I kinda wanted to see what grush would flip as I wasn't sure whether grush or Kthez were scum at this point. My case on Vivax was somewhat Ignored. Alot of you guys seemed to think it was weak, why? : (. It's obviously a bit trickier to write a case when I knew that he was 100% scum. Still, I think his answers wasn't really good at all. My plan was to claim in the following night, so I tried my best not to look like the DT but also to piss Vivax off. If I was shoot N2 I figured it should be GG. N2: Not much to say. I am now 99,9% sure Kthez is scum. I just need to let everyone else know. fortunately I was shot : ).
Onto the players The_zen_Man: Sorry for gettingt you lynched bro : ). Still your play was strange and you were far from dead untill the last 30 minutes where you posted some really strange no content posts on how yous hould lynch me when you flip. Post more next time and you should be fine. Also, try to post more of your own stuff. s0lstice: You were probebly the best towni e in the game. You were the first one to push Kthez I think nad you were also the first one to put any critique at Vivax. I guess that's why you got shot : ). grush57: Strange play overall. The DT claim didn't make any sense what so ever but on the other hand it was what won us the game Release: You were really active which was very good in an otherwise quite lazy game. Your reads weren't super tho, and you keept going after people that were bad townies instead of scum. I know that is a fine line but you should probebly analyze peopple motives more next time. Ha236: Your play was strange aswell. You need to give more reads next time you play. Also remember that a player pushing you as town isn't necessarily a scum. Shaiopi: You play on D1 wasn't really good imo. You were quite passive. On D2 I think you improved tho. You gave good opinions and looked at peoples motives etc. Vivax: Sorry for the agressive tone against you : ). I really wanted you guys to kill me tho, so I somewhat succeded : P. I can only really comment on your play D1 as that's what made me check you. You never took a stance except for Zen_Man and he was a really easy target. I don't have problems with summaries but you avoided taking stances while only doing summaries. This is kinda scummy. Kthez: You took a risk, and if grush would've been the DT(which he should've been, VTs should claim like that) then it might just have won you guys the game. Your D1 play was a bit scummy to me but D2 was better. You were just unlucky that grush played next level mindgames with you : P.
I just read through the Mafia QT and damn my play in day 1 was sooo bad :D But I did in fact got caught up with EURO, but nice thinking from Vivax to see me as DT cuz of the change in behaviour. I admit it looked ridiculously scummy or blue but all without any intention ^^.
I must say scumteam did really well, if it had not been for Lazer's check on Vivax and his subsequent death we might have been in soo much trouble. I probably should have claimed the RB right after the nightpost instead of breadcrumbing it (even asked Toad about it, thanks for the coaching!) but I did that post before asking, so it probably added to the confusion about who the DT was in the end.
So when I was coaching I actually talked to Lazer specifically regarding the claims and the possibilities. It was the most straightforward for a DT in that situation.
I don't at all agree with grush's play in this game, and from a results-oriented perspective it looks good. However, it is INCREDIBLY dangerous in any normal game for a VT to claim DT. Imagine grush fake claimed and he was wrong about his target. That's an instant town loss. Imagine the mafia don't counterclaim and the real DT does; the DT is outted and the mafia can kill both players with ease (one with lynch and the other with a shot) If the DT is lynched, the fakeclaimer almost certainly gets lynched the next day.
With that said, grush got incredibly lucky. Scum panicked a bit (if I were in scum's position I would've simply denied the claim and tried to get grush lynched. I only really consider claiming at lylo). Blues get lynched all the time without counterclaims, and fake blues are even easier to lynch because their claims are flimsy. Someone who pushed and pressured grush to explain his claim could probably have ended up exposing him and getting an easy lynch. This takes confidence, though, and is much easier said than done.
On June 17 2012 14:01 wherebugsgo wrote: So when I was coaching I actually talked to Lazer specifically regarding the claims and the possibilities. It was the most straightforward for a DT in that situation.
I don't at all agree with grush's play in this game, and from a results-oriented perspective it looks good. However, it is INCREDIBLY dangerous in any normal game for a VT to claim DT. Imagine grush fake claimed and he was wrong about his target. That's an instant town loss. Imagine the mafia don't counterclaim and the real DT does; the DT is outted and the mafia can kill both players with ease (one with lynch and the other with a shot) If the DT is lynched, the fakeclaimer almost certainly gets lynched the next day.
With that said, grush got incredibly lucky. Scum panicked a bit (if I were in scum's position I would've simply denied the claim and tried to get grush lynched. I only really consider claiming at lylo). Blues get lynched all the time without counterclaims, and fake blues are even easier to lynch because their claims are flimsy. Someone who pushed and pressured grush to explain his claim could probably have ended up exposing him and getting an easy lynch. This takes confidence, though, and is much easier said than done.
I'd like to second what WBG mentioned here about VT fakeclaims. Typically gambitting with a fakeclaim, especially in a semi-open mini like this, is a great way to get mislynched. The fact that scum freaked out and counterclaimed doesn't mean the gambit was good, it just meaned it worked.
If, for example, the real Cop counterclaimed (since a 1-1 trade isn't so bad if they both get lynched, he thinks), it's entirely possible town could have killed the Cop, THEN KILLED THE VT. Could you imagine trying to say "oh, no, it was a fakeclaim you guys" after the Cop claimed, or after he got lynched for his counterclaim and flipped cop? Nobody would buy it. Scum would say "nice try, scum", and so would town.
I guess the best analogy here is that Grush walked into a casino, went up to a roulette table, put it all on 0, and won 20 grand. Yeah, he won 20 grand. It doesn't mean the strat was good, though. All it means is he got lucky.
Yeah basically it came to scum jumping the gun and counterclaiming faster than the DT himself could. Odd situation, but not one you normally want to create as a VT.
town was hella lucky this game DT check ---> scum turns, no framers, guaranteed scum VT claims DT ---> scum claims DT Real DT claims ---> real DT shot.
As KtheZ, the Sand Monster pounded the last ounces of life out of the hapless Lazermonkey, Vivax, the Vizier, arrived at the scene. With the Prince of Persia out of the way, his plan had almost no opposition left. Gleefully, Vivax approached the body of the Prince, seeking to loot that elusive Dagger of Time, but as he searched his body, the corpse's complexion grew darker, and darker. Perplexed, Vivax jumped back in confusion as Lazermonkey's body morphed into some sort of shadowy being!
"Seeing double, Vivax?" sneered the real Lazermonkey, suddenly appearing at the clearing. Flanking him were ha236, Release, and ShiaoPi, the remaining Kingdom Guard.
"What magic is this? You're not capable of a spell of this magnitude" said Vivax, astonished. "No spell," said Lazermonkey, smiling. "He is a manifestation of my darker sides, the accumulation of pride, greed, and scum within me, brought out by the Sands of Time, and you've done me the favor of slaying him for me. It's the end for you scum."
"You think you can defeat me and my minion??" exclaimed Vivax. "I think you should examine your surroundings more closely," said Lazermonkey.
Vivax and KtheZ had only a moment to glance at the perilous drop behind them before Lazermonkey activated the Sands of Time within his dagger. As the Vizier screamed curses, sand whipped and whirled around the villainous duo, creating a torrent of wind that, with a flick of the dagger, picked up and hurled them off the cliff and into the endless abyss! It was all over at last.
Gathering the survivors, Lazermonkey solemnly looked towards the sunrise and said a few words in reverence of their broken kingdom. "Though we fought between each other, we are all that remain to rebuild our great Kingdom. Though the scum have won countless victories over Liquidia, let us remember this one triumphant moment as we face the future challenges, together!"
Lazermonkey, The Prince of Persia became ruler of the land! ha236, Release, and ShiaoPi, the Kingdom Guards, survived the ordeal! KtheZ, the Sand Monster and Vivax, the Vizier, were destroyed by the Sands of Time and/or gravity!
Welcome to Newbie Mini Mafia XVI! You are a Sand Monster (Mafia Goon), a mindless beast who seeks the destruction of Liquidia. A loyal servant to the Vizier, you seek nothing more than to eliminate any obstacles to your Master's grand schemes. As an empty husk, you have no special abilities, but thanks to your Master's magic you have become disguised as an earnest guard, ready to destroy Liquidia from the inside.
In the stealth of the night, you or the Vizier may murder one individual. You may also communicate amongst yourselves at this link: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/tfBKX4cUJUkQ . Destroy the empire and deliver the throne to the Master!
Welcome to Newbie Mini Mafia XVI! You are the Vizier (Mafia Roleblocker), a traitorous, power hungry advisor. Though you have succeeded in converting the majority of the Liquidia into your Sand minions, you still lack the Dagger of Time needed to complete your final scheme. Unbeknownst to the survivors, you have disguised yourself as an earnest guard, so that you may gut them from the inside. As wielder of the Staff of Time, you wield ancient, powerful magic.
Once per night, you may cast a spell that discombobulates your target, rendering them unable to perform any actions that night. They will be notified that they have been prevented from taking any actions, regardless of if they attempted to. In addition, you or your minions may murder one individual every night. Finally, you may communicate among yourselves here: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/tfBKX4cUJUkQ Destroy the empire and take your rightful throne!
Welcome to Newbie Mini Mafia XVI! You are Farah, Princess of India (Town Medic), a previously enslaved captive who has now become aligned with Liquidia. Though you were taken as a spoil of war and thus resent the kingdom of Liquidia, you have no love for the Sand monsters nor the traitorous Vizier who created them. You are an invaluable ally to any due to your resourcefulness and intelligence.
Once per night, you may choose a person to visit and protect from any killing blow. Both your target and you will be notified if there has been a successful save. Root out and eliminate the invaders!
Welcome to Newbie Mini Mafia XVI! You are the Prince of Persia (Town Detective), a young, untested hero wishing to test his mettle. The sudden invasion of Liquidia by the hideous Sand monsters has give you both a chance to become the hero you have always yearned to be and the burden of having to save your kingdom from ruin. Though you have not quite developed the combat skills to take on an army, you are a master of infiltration, exploration, and acrobatics.
Once per night, you may use your skills to sneak around and investigate a player of your choice. You will discern their alignment as either Pure or Corrupted by the following day. Root out and eliminate the invaders!
Welcome to Newbie Mini Mafia XVI! You are a Kingdom Guard (Vanilla Townie), a loyal soldier looking to save his kingdom. As nothing but a low ranking soldier, you only survived the corrupting influence of the Sands of Time due to a mysterious pendant handed down through your family line. Though you are neither a powerful warrior nor a cunning strategist, you and your compatriots are the only barrier blocking the nefarious Sand minions from destroying your beloved empire.
Every day, you may cast your vote for who should be executed as traitor. Root out and eliminate the invaders!
This is a million lines long, apologies; I hope it's useful to some of you guys. There's a tl;dr and player-by-player assessment at bottom, if you're lazy. Don't be, if you can avoid it.
Day 1
The Day 1 activity was pretty much an average D1, good and bad for both factions. One interesting thing to note; when the game started, Vivax posted in scum QT "it's pretty late, I'll wait for other people to post so I have something to respond to". While understandable that it's late and he could've already been asleep, townies are always more eager to get going in thread,. Especially considering Vivax's meta (afaik), his lurkyness would stand out, and it started at the Day Post.
Though Release is good to have healthy paranoia to FoS s0Lstice early (mostly because s0Lstice's post was really fluffy, low substance), I would immediately put these 2 players further down in my lynch priority list. Just look at these posts from them:
On June 09 2012 10:39 Release wrote: Low activity levels and lurkers are Town-Killers. Start talking, or i will find you, and i will shove a dirty sock up you anus.
On June 09 2012 10:49 s0Lstice wrote: And yea, everyone needs to un-shut-up. It's my sock he is using, and it's hella dirty.
Though scum can easily say these lines too, the decisiveness and proactive-ness of these statements just ooze with towniness.
The next big order of business is the grush vs. Release thing. One thing that's an interesting small note is that though Release pressure votes Grush at 11:08, KtheZ's first post at 11:45 doesn't even address it. Though he later does so, the mindset of scum generally doesn't want to comment on things unless they are forced to. Regarding the pressure itself, I like the initiative by Release, but he took it way too far. Having a mudslinging contest for 3-4 pages is not good for town environment.
One thing to note is that grush57 never seemed very perturbed by the pressure. A lot of players seemed to think that grush57 looked scummier and scummier over time, but really his belligerence seemed really fearless; a townie trait. The case here by Lazermonkey is probably how a lot of people viewed grush57, but the case kind of skews a lot of grush's posts, especially where Lazer says "your third post says its ok if people lurk". That post does not say that at all; it is these kind of logical inaccuracies that you need to look out for to determine if a case is good or bad. Reading through this, both ha236 and The_Zen_Man highlight the logical fallacy in the "third post lurkers ok". One of the best ways to find other townies is to make your own logical conclusions and then see if other people share your opinions.
At this very moment in the game, I would probably be suspicious of Lazermonkey (for a bad case), KtheZ (for not taking a hard stance yet but being around), and ShiaoPi/Vivax (for lurking). Release/s0Lstice are super townies, ha/Zen are logical, and grush is being belligerent; all look light green to me. There are different schools of thought on how to organize thoughts, whether or not it's good to internally think "this guy is more scummy than that guy", but most of all just remember to record your thoughts on people but always be ready to reassess them. Excel spreadsheet ftw. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At this point, the Day is almost half over and people should've been taking stances by now, yet this is not the case. Posts like this
On June 10 2012 04:56 s0Lstice wrote: Also Vivax, I've seen your town play, and lurking is not it. Your silence is extra suspicious.
should not be forgotten. Ver (mafia god) once said that Mafia is a game of paradoxes; the person who seems so blatantly suspicious (grush) is often town, while the person tickling at the back of your mind but staying hidden is often scum (Vivax).
Never ever say this:
On June 10 2012 08:22 Release wrote: Scum team is Grush and Ha236. This game is over.
You'll always be wrong, unless your name is Palmar.
Next up is the push onto ha. s0Lstice's initial case is decent, but nothing conclusive. However, it is reactions to this case that are most important. Lazermonkey's reaction here seems to be full of hiding; if I was town I would think he is scummy, and if I was scum, I would at this point consider him as a potential blue. Also, ShiaoPi's response did not really directly address the issue; I would also see him as blue or scummy (which the scum team ended up thinking, not a bad read).
Note KtheZ's reasoning for voting:
On June 11 2012 03:56 KtheZ wrote: I think I'll place my vote on grush for now. If new compelling evidence comes up, I'm definitely open to accepting it.
##Vote: grush57
Wait, where's the reasoning? He posts a bunch of connections that are mostly fluff, and he doesn't at all state exactly why he thinks grush is the best lynch. Alarm bells should be sounding now; s0Lstice did catch on a bit.
This is another example of a post where the suspicion is tickling at you in an odd way:
On June 11 2012 05:29 Vivax wrote: Guys, we're at close danger of a no-lynch. I'm not very satisfied with ha236 as option cause I find his first posts regarding Lazermonkey and Release to be true, but on the other hand he didn't make a single case except for OMGUS ones now in the end and instead only spent time defending grush and himself. [...]
##vote ha236
If you're not satisfied, go read some more.
Release sees the logical fallacy here (being unsatisfied with something but voting with it anyways?), but the way Vivax posted it, it doesn't seem immediately uber scummy. Jump on posts like that. Also note how he says "it was a pretty bad day 1 imo". Isn't it Vivax's fault partialy for that, for lurking all day? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The vote switch was bad, to put it simply. Last minute vote switches are rarely, rarely going to hit scum because if the switch is happening onto a teammate, they can just say "last minute vote switches are scummy, I'm sticking to our main target". Only attempt a major vote switch if you have at least 8-12 hours. Zen looked a little scummy, but since blue roles often look scummy, it's a dicy situation.
Regarding whether to claim or not to claim; personally, I think in this situation not claiming was the correct choice. If you have 12 hours and plenty of time to prove your innocence, then a claim could help you out, but with only like 2 hours, a no-lynch would be more likely which is utterly terrible for town. There is almost no situations where no-lynching is good; if Zen had claimed, he would've completely bogged down town discussion. What he should've done was post a comprehensive case on someone he was suspicious on, but again, it was too late for a good switch to happen. Also, even if he doesn't get killed, he will be simply shot at night or roleblocked, and if he lives to D2, he will be promptly be mislynched. The medic role cannot operate if out in the open. Simply put, there shouldn't have been a switch, so I don't blame Zen for the situation that happened.
Scum deserve credit for successfully making a vote shift. The reason why vote shifts between two townies is good is because the person that got shifted off of looks really bad (ha236), and it confuses town, as "it looks like everyone thought Zen was scum, I dunno". Credit to scum here, and good luck getting the medic. Night 1 That took forever to write up and I bet you guys are getting tired of reading, so I'll make the next few cycles a lot shorter.
So the medic just got lynched; what to do? Remember; D1 mislynches are super common in all levels of play, and even though it was the medic, it's NBD; town still has plenty of chances to win. Don't get demoralized by a blue dying, or overconfident if you're scum. There are mountains of information in D1 as I highlighted above, so to the observant townie or observant scum, there are red and blue to be found.
The most important thing to do after a mislynch is to examine who pushed it. A simple re-read of the thread shows that Lazermonkey is the first to vote him. However look again: Vivax posts a mini case and FoS's him; why the FoS here and not a vote, like Lazermonkey? This is a common scum thing to do: FoS someone, see if enough votes stack on, then you put your vote on. This way, you successfully push a mislynch while not looking like the push behind it. This tell is stronger if it happens later on in the day; a FoS in the early part of D1 doesn't mean anything, but Vivax's timing is all off.
I don't know why Release decided to tunnel after ha some more. Why? I dunno, he doesn't really state. You got to have reasons, bro. Your case on s0Lstice was decent, but strange. You cherry pick things that you disagree with to make s0Lstice look scummy, while ignoring the fact that he was by far the most active and contributing poster.
ShiaoPi makes a big contributive post, and states which one he thinks is most scummy and why. Off my scummy list.
s0Lstice makes good case on KtheZ. DONT IGNORE IT. DONT IGNORE IT. DONT FORGET IT
Lazermonkey makes a clutch DT check on Vivax, noting his meta. Though I bashed Lazer a bunch above, he deserves major kudos for this. Day 2
s0Lstice flips town. Look at his filter boys, what does it say? It says kill KtheZ. While you don't want to blindly follow dead people's words, since s0Lstice is a proven strong town player (from previous newbie games, afaik), you should seriously consider what he has to say. However, Release continues his tunnel onto Ha. He does state a good reason why ha could be scum (votes on s0Lstice and Release for no reason), but I don't feel like he seriously considered KtheZ despite a flipped green posting a monster case on him.
Day post comes out, and who isn't talking much? Vivax. At this point, even without the DT checks, the scum team has been pretty accurately pointed out. The hard part is focusing on them and getting them lynched.
ShiaoPi should've claimed RB at the beginning of D2. Scum already know who they roleblocked; town should always relate important information as quickly as possible. Because there is a RBer in a game, there must be a DT (as medic flipped). Town should know this ASAP.
Lazermonkey posts a good logical defense of ha, then does the exact correct thing as a DT with a red check. He doesn't claim or just say "kill Vivax, hes scum kthxbai". He posts a large, logical case and puts his vote down hard. Blue play like this is so rare; he played it perfectly here. Don't use your role as your case; use your role as a guide to your already made cases. Well done.
Vivax and KtheZ's defenses against the cases brought against them were adequate, but remember; you don't know their alignment, but you know s0Lstice is town. I'd take their defenses with a grain of salt at this point, and really dig deep and see who is right. Vivax's unvote of grush into Lazer looks really suspicious at this point. It looks like quite the reactionary move; he goes from "I have no reads, I vote grush" into "you look really bad!!"?? OMGUS at it's clearest example.
Also Note that Vivax unvotes Lazer, then votes KtheZ. While I like that he decided to vote his mate (important to not ignore your scumbuddies, it's a tell), this is his second unvote in a short span of time. It reeks of a lack of focus or intent to scumhunt. This coupled with the other tells makes a completely insurmountable case for me.
Grush's vote onto KtheZ with no reasoning was terrible, even if he would've been DT with a red check. His claim was bad too. Unless you are heavily experienced, I'm talking about a kajillion games playing blue/green, do not fake claim as town. Just don't do it. It will backfire, and people will call you noob and you will deserve it. KtheZ's counterclaim is debatable. If a strong townie (i.e. Release) came out like this, I would counterclaim immediately as you have a big threat on your plate. However, with grush you could've tried to argue him down. Ask him "where is your breadcrumb?". Ask him why he checked you and not ha236 or Lazermonkey. Pressure him. Also, you could've used the arguement that you have to lynch the claimed DT first; lynching the target doesn't confirm the DT at all. If you had managed to get grush lynched and he flips green, you would be exonerated, and town would be in disarrary.
Town correctly lynches grush. If KtheZ hadn't claimed, scum would be in a great position; Vivax would get lynched tomorrow, then most likely Ha236. However, at this point scum is pretty much screwed due to roles. Sorry about that. Night 2 Shooting Lazermonkey was not the wrong idea, as you thought he was least likely to be detective, but unfortunately you got unlucky here. If scum had shot Release instead, it would be KtheZ's claim vs. Lazermonkey's claim. This would've been a very interesting duel, with both sides evenly matched. Day 3 GG. Overall Town Despite mudslinging early on between Release and Grush, there was a lot of activity throughout the game. People bemoaned lurking, but remember this is a 9 player game. I thought the activity was enough to have substance without being spammy. The biggest problem was not re-reading closely, especially s0Lstice's reads. You have to think; WHY would they shoot s0Lstice over Release? Release was pushing ha and grush a lot, while s0Lstice was leaning against KtheZ a lot. Take that into account. Also, if you're blue remember it's important to try and act as green as possible; if you act scared, it makes you more obvious to scum, and suspicious to your comrades. Clutch blue play from Lazermonkey sealed the deal; town deserved this win overall. Even without the weird claim from grush, town was in a good position to win it as long as Release refocused his thoughts.
Overall Scum Scum played better than most newbie scum teams, as both were fairly active and posted logical cases against people. However, as I stated a few times Vivax did this far too late, and KtheZ wasn't as decisive as he could've been. There are different schools of thoughts on how to play scum, but one of them is to try and look as townie as possible for as long as possible; look at how strong and decisive s0Lstice and Release were, and emulate that. Your blue reading wasn't bad; I find blue reading to be pretty hard and you had a decent range on who was blue. Overall, with more earlier activity, you would've been able to avoid the DT check and get a win. Player by Player
KtheZ - Your play was active from the start, which was good, but you have to be more firm in your convictions. This means always commenting on major events of the day and posting your reasons for all of your actions so there are no loose ends. One way to to do this is to make your posting more tight. You post a bunch of auxillary posts which makes it seem like you don't have much to talk about. The reason why your % statistics things looks strange is because it feels like an artificial reason to be suspicious of someone. Instead of you saying "I think X is scummy because of Y", you are saying "Because of Y, X is more likely to be scummy". One of them sounds more direct than the other. Overall though, decent play. I thought you reacted to the blue claim in an appropriate manner.
Vivax - Your posting style was very good, but you were pretty damned for being inactive in this game despite being active in another. Though meta is a dicy thing, it was pretty apparent that you were AWOL for a while, and though others lurked as well, it puts you into an unnecessarily dangerous area. There are ways to spin being lurky to your advantage though, and this is mostly if you make the substantial posts at the right times. If you want to consider lurking as a general style it can be done; just be ready to argue with people calling you out.
The_Zen_Man - You looked far too blue which is a problem; you don't want to be exposed like that because it will draw suspicion from both town and mafia. I thought not claiming was the right choice, though you could've argued out of it by saying last minute vote switches are terrible.
Lazermonkey - Strong blue play overall. I didn't like your case on Zen, but the effort was there. The way you handled the fake claimers was good. Keep it up, and be sure to reassess your cases more often.
s0Lstice - Stellar play. Not much else I can say except don't let vote switches like that happen. Don't let it get to your head, but keep on having fun wrecking as town.
ha236 - I thought you were sort of a victim of bad cases, and you did actively confront them which is good, but don't let OMGUS seep into your system. Your vote onto s0Lstice and Release was needless and it showed that you didn't have any other major cases to push. Though it's hard to find cases and you might think "I'm Town, so these people pushing me must be anti-town", you have to show you are townie not only by looking like it, but by making cases.
grush57 - I think you know by now not to fake claim. It's not a good idea as it will just cause a lot of disruption. I thought you handled the pressure from Release reasonably; it's good that you constantly responded, but by not using longer amounts of reasoning, why would anyone believe you? Your style reminds me a bit of FourFace; he can post in a very sketchy style, but when it comes to defending himself or attacking others, he posts longer cases. Put more work into effectively conveying your thoughts with more reasoning, and you'll be in better shape.
Release - You did a very effective job at establishing yourself as townie, which is IMO the most important thing to do as a townie. I already mentioned that I felt you tunneled too hard at ha/grush, but you kept town going which is an important thing to do. Just make sure you don't lynch off your fellow town head in future games. Don't be overconfident in your reads; while it is good to trust your own instincts since you don't know other people's alignments, when people flip green, you should take their words into account.
Shiaopi - You already know that you were pretty inactive, but it worked out in that they thought you were the DT. I've actually done this strat before, where I make sure I look townie enough to not be thought of as scum, but I show off classic blue traits (lurking, conciliatory attitude) to soak shots. By N1/D2 you helped town along with Release, so I thought your play was good. Conclusion
WP by town. I apologize for the setup; because there were no Millers or GFers or Framers possible, the DT was a little more powerful than it should be. However, considering town's good play, I feel that they did not use the blue role as a crutch; it just sealed the deal in the end. Good analysis is the most important thing to learn from these games, not how to follow a cop.
Most of all, remember that ALL OF YOU GUYS POSTED, MULTIPLE TIMES each days. I was so happy that I didn't have to modkill anyone. I look forward to seeing all of you in my future games, as you guys have proven to be active and decent players.
I might do a fully themed PoP game some time, when I have more time and if there's positive feedback for it. Time manipulation mechanics will be had to work out xp.
Thanks to coaches for giving out help, and marvellosity for being a good co-host, esp. when I was off at MLG.
GG, and remember; vote switches and fake claims are bad!
Overall Town Despite mudslinging early on between Release and Grush, there was a lot of activity throughout the game. People bemoaned lurking, but remember this is a 9 player game. I thought the activity was enough to have substance without being spammy. The biggest problem was not re-reading closely, especially s0Lstice's reads. You have to think; WHY would they shoot s0Lstice over Release? Release was pushing ha and grush a lot, while s0Lstice was leaning against KtheZ a lot. Take that into account. Also, if you're blue remember it's important to try and act as green as possible; if you act scared, it makes you more obvious to scum, and suspicious to your comrades. Clutch blue play from Lazermonkey sealed the deal; town deserved this win overall. Even without the weird claim from grush, town was in a good position to win it as long as Release refocused his thoughts.
Don't you think it's WIFOM to discuss why people were killed? Let's say they instead killed Release N1 then we could have argued that grush/ha would be scum because of that. At the same time Kthez would look even more clean because why would scum let anyone who are pushing their case live.
Overall Town Despite mudslinging early on between Release and Grush, there was a lot of activity throughout the game. People bemoaned lurking, but remember this is a 9 player game. I thought the activity was enough to have substance without being spammy. The biggest problem was not re-reading closely, especially s0Lstice's reads. You have to think; WHY would they shoot s0Lstice over Release? Release was pushing ha and grush a lot, while s0Lstice was leaning against KtheZ a lot. Take that into account. Also, if you're blue remember it's important to try and act as green as possible; if you act scared, it makes you more obvious to scum, and suspicious to your comrades. Clutch blue play from Lazermonkey sealed the deal; town deserved this win overall. Even without the weird claim from grush, town was in a good position to win it as long as Release refocused his thoughts.
Don't you think it's WIFOM to discuss why people were killed? Let's say they instead killed Release N1 then we could have argued that grush/ha would be scum because of that. At the same time Kthez would look even more clean because why would scum let anyone who are pushing their case live.
It might be WIFOM, but if you're going into a close vote as mafia and you NEED a townie to agree with you, killing the one who disagrees with you is really really a lot easier than killing the one who agrees with you and trying to convince the disagreeing one. Imagine a WIFOM situation where you have to out-armwrestling your opponent to drink from a cup that's not your own. Where do you put the poison?
Overall Town Despite mudslinging early on between Release and Grush, there was a lot of activity throughout the game. People bemoaned lurking, but remember this is a 9 player game. I thought the activity was enough to have substance without being spammy. The biggest problem was not re-reading closely, especially s0Lstice's reads. You have to think; WHY would they shoot s0Lstice over Release? Release was pushing ha and grush a lot, while s0Lstice was leaning against KtheZ a lot. Take that into account. Also, if you're blue remember it's important to try and act as green as possible; if you act scared, it makes you more obvious to scum, and suspicious to your comrades. Clutch blue play from Lazermonkey sealed the deal; town deserved this win overall. Even without the weird claim from grush, town was in a good position to win it as long as Release refocused his thoughts.
Don't you think it's WIFOM to discuss why people were killed? Let's say they instead killed Release N1 then we could have argued that grush/ha would be scum because of that. At the same time Kthez would look even more clean because why would scum let anyone who are pushing their case live.
as a more srious answer, it is wifom yeah but it's not useless. it's a piece of evidence that you could fit into a bigger puzzle. it doesn't HAVE to be that way, but it gives your thoughts a nudge in a certain direction. see what i mean?
Yeah, BH said it. If you are facing crafty scum players, then you will have to be more careful, but more often than not scum will go for "optimal" plays, which means you can try and counteract that.
I believe marv won his newbie game by arguing something like "because scum killed X and let you live, I can't be scum because you openly stated that you think I'm scum, while X was more on the fence. If I was scum I would've shot you instead, not X."
Tunneling Ha = Fishing for reactions. I caught Kthez in this way, but i couldn't decide between ShiaoPi and Vivax. Kthez said something like Ha not doing shit, only OMGUS, definitely scum (or something like that). Too complacent with my case on Ha, whom after reading his filter, i decided he was more likely to be town.
Also, you didn't mention Lazermonkey's case on Vivax as a breadcrumb to being the DT. When i first read it, i felt that Vivax wasn't really a contender for lynch, and suddenly, LM has a case on Vivax. He is probably the dt...
On June 18 2012 02:46 Release wrote: Tunneling Ha = Fishing for reactions. I caught Kthez in this way, but i couldn't decide between ShiaoPi and Vivax. Kthez said something like Ha not doing shit, only OMGUS, definitely scum (or something like that). Too complacent with my case on Ha, whom after reading his filter, i decided he was more likely to be town.
Also, you didn't mention Lazermonkey's case on Vivax as a breadcrumb to being the DT. When i first read it, i felt that Vivax wasn't really a contender for lynch, and suddenly, LM has a case on Vivax. He is probably the dt...
I suppose tunneling for reactions isn't a bad idea, but to ha236 it probably looked like you were going to mislynch him into the ground. Going for reaction based plays is pretty common but you have to execute them right; it would've been tricky to explain to people how you didn't think ha was scum anymore despite being on his ass all game. Ha236 would also probably be completely demoralized and unmotivated to try and find out the final scum. And didn't you breadcrumb "Don't worry KtheZ", indicating that you thought he was town? That makes a bit more sense now, though.
I don't see the breadcrumb. Where is it? It just looks like LM made a big case on Vivax. Just because a player comes out with a big case on someone that they hadn't previously commented on, doesn't mean that it's a DT tell.
On June 18 2012 02:46 Release wrote: Tunneling Ha = Fishing for reactions. I caught Kthez in this way, but i couldn't decide between ShiaoPi and Vivax. Kthez said something like Ha not doing shit, only OMGUS, definitely scum (or something like that). Too complacent with my case on Ha, whom after reading his filter, i decided he was more likely to be town.
Also, you didn't mention Lazermonkey's case on Vivax as a breadcrumb to being the DT. When i first read it, i felt that Vivax wasn't really a contender for lynch, and suddenly, LM has a case on Vivax. He is probably the dt...
I suppose tunneling for reactions isn't a bad idea, but to ha236 it probably looked like you were going to mislynch him into the ground. Going for reaction based plays is pretty common but you have to execute them right; it would've been tricky to explain to people how you didn't think ha was scum anymore despite being on his ass all game. Ha236 would also probably be completely demoralized and unmotivated to try and find out the final scum. And didn't you breadcrumb "Don't worry KtheZ", indicating that you thought he was town? That makes a bit more sense now, though.
I don't see the breadcrumb. Where is it? It just looks like LM made a big case on Vivax. Just because a player comes out with a big case on someone that they hadn't previously commented on, doesn't mean that it's a DT tell.
Dont wory Kthez = Please save my life, i'm on your side... I also repeated said Vivax>LM and LM must be the scum, so that i convince scum to keep myself alive (bashing down the DT) so that if LM really did turn out to be the DT, he would have a high chance to win us the game.
At this point, i still didn't know if it was Vivax or ShiaoPi was the other one, but LM and Vivax were interacting with each other and shiao wasn't.
guess i was a bit harsh on ha though.... A little bit of clarification: day 1 i was legitimately scumhunting on ha, and after big post on night one was intentional tunneling.
Nice writeup ET, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote there. It sucks being a coach and not able to actually provide concrete advice. All I could say was "post more!!!!"
The counterclaim was definitely an emotional response and in that respect it was the incorrect play. I agree waiting a bit to see whether someone else claims is an option. There are no framers so it comes down to KtheZ's word versus Grush's which given the KMan didn't make himself uber-townie upfront could have gone with the blue claim. From a scum point of view there is no reason to believe that Grush was fakeclaiming, so a counterclaim is reasonable but I think waiting until less shocked would have been better.
I don't agree that you can read into Solstice's death. Yes his case was big and clear but his death should not influence how much credit you put into it. It the case was not enough to convince you before, him flipping green should not change that. Townies are generally wrong more than they are right so knowing he is green doesn't make his case any better. Anyway, it is a debatable point and something scum can abuse, so I avoid it.
Finally, whilst this game was balanced and I don't think the blues had the decisive role, this setup is prone to swinging wildly in town's favour. Two blues out of 5 townies is insane and as you mentioned Town could have played follow the cop. If he had claimed day 2 with a green check, assuming two townies dead (misslynch and night kill) already that gives you two presumed townies out of 7 players, plus the possibility of a medic blocking a night kill. Scum then have to roleblock the cop and try and hunt the medic, whilst the medic knows he is not getting blocked that night. That is a hugely powerful position to be in as town and has nothing to do with how they played. I would prefer newbie games to have no DT or a really weak version (tracker/watcher) because in this setup he has too much power.
Well played town, scum were outplayed by a few but very good players. I look forward to having a game with you guys
You're right that it's debatable on how to deal with dead people. However, I really do think that it's a current weakness of TL Towns that they don't re-read dead people's words. The most egregious example is TL Mafia L; Protactinium (Incognito/Mystlord hydra) posted a large case saying X, Y, Z are probably scum, N is probably not scum. Protact flips DT..... and game continues on for like another 3 days without lynching the people he pointed out? That example is more extreme because it's a flipped DT, but still. If someone you trust to be logical flips, if you're not sure where to look, look at their words and you'll find some stuff. Of course, you do have to watch out if scum shoot someone so that town will be lead into a false conclusion. However, whenever I roll scum, if I have to pick between 4-5 vets/super townies, I almost always shoot the ones that are on the right track / starting to suspect me or my mates, and leave the other ones alive. Changing your mind is a lot harder than tunneling your convictions you already have.
Trackers and watchers are less obvious roles to understand; medics and DTs are most common because they work very simply, and are the most common roles from RL mafia, so people are probably familiar with them. JK is a good alternate to medic, that makes follow the cop not as good. I think framers, millers, and GFers are enough to weaken DTs. I think you would agree, Mr. Probe :p
Tbh, i feel we should've used a framer/GF in this game or something to prevent said gambles to "insta-win" the game. We had 2 gambles (Grush, and scumcheck N1) pay off, which is a victory to be overly proud about. The end was a bit anti-climactic (although being funny as hell)
Yup, I agree whole-heartedly with framer/GF/Miller.
You have to remember that despite towns having tons of stacked blue roles in the past (I remember a 2vet, 1vig, 6 townie vs. 3 goon setup), newbie towns lose, like, all the time. Even if it wasn't the most epic or clean victory, a newbie victory is something to be proud of.
On June 18 2012 09:15 EchelonTee wrote: Yup, I agree whole-heartedly with framer/GF/Miller.
You have to remember that despite towns having tons of stacked blue roles in the past (I remember a 2vet, 1vig, 6 townie vs. 3 goon setup), newbie towns lose, like, all the time. Even if it wasn't the most epic or clean victory, a newbie victory is something to be proud of.
It's also the size of the game. Having a 7/2 setup makes a DT check much more powerful as it can halve scum numbers. I think larger games or having ways to combat a DT are needed. I hate Millers cause they are passive roles, I think framers are what is needed as it adds a dynamic to how scum play.
Town played really well this game especially because everyone posted and participated. If you look at the older newbie games, there is always someone modkilled, or barely posting, and there are often replacements. This give scum a huge advantage.
On June 18 2012 09:07 EchelonTee wrote: I think framers, millers, and GFers are enough to weaken DTs. I think you would agree, Mr. Probe :p
You're such a bastard
My checks that game were terrible and I know it.
Meh, I think only your Wiggles check was actually bad tbh.
On June 18 2012 09:15 EchelonTee wrote: Yup, I agree whole-heartedly with framer/GF/Miller.
You have to remember that despite towns having tons of stacked blue roles in the past (I remember a 2vet, 1vig, 6 townie vs. 3 goon setup), newbie towns lose, like, all the time. Even if it wasn't the most epic or clean victory, a newbie victory is something to be proud of.
This is also true. The setup we had here wasn't bad.
The problem was that there wasn't the threat that there could be a miller, framer or gf, one doesn't even need to actually exist necessarily.