EPT##Vote zelblade
Emergency Mini Mafia! - Page 42
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
##Vote zelblade | ||
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On June 12 2012 18:15 Shraft wrote: Stop calling BH anti-town. Right now, he is more fucking pro-town than any of us. The chance that BH is a fake-claiming mafia is slim, and our chances of winning are a lot higher with than without him. Let's kill this zelblade guy now. ##Vote zelblade you're only strengthening my resolve to kill BH. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
On June 12 2012 21:20 ghost_403 wrote: @Shraft: Give me a good reason to lynch zelblade. Here are two good reasons: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341663¤tpage=40#793 and http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341663&user=240873. | ||
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
On June 12 2012 21:56 Palmar wrote: you're only strengthening my resolve to kill BH. Weren't you they guy who said that wanting to kill third party roles was a scum tell in BC's Arkham Asylum? | ||
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On June 12 2012 18:15 Shraft wrote: Stop calling BH anti-town. Right now, he is more fucking pro-town than any of us. The chance that BH is a fake-claiming mafia is slim, and our chances of winning are a lot higher with than without him. Let's kill this zelblade guy now. ##Vote zelblade The chance that he is SK fake-claiming is pretty slim too. His plan would have to have been to not night kill anyone else for the rest of the game or else be lynched. Until we actually know his motives how can we be sure that his case even has merit? | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On June 07 2012 09:40 Shraft wrote: I'm not that suspicious of Navillus anymore. All of my problems with him came from one post that I thought was loaded with scumminess, but I haven't been able to notice anything scummy about his subsequent posts. I've made the mistake of tunneling a player based off of one really scummy post before, and I am not going to do it again. Additionally, we now know that Pandain had a town read on him. And here: On June 12 2012 08:02 Shraft wrote: I think Navillus or zelblade both make for fine lynch targets. Yet you haven't made it clear how you got from A to B. Care to fill us in? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
It was this post that made my suspicion toward Navillus resurface: On June 12 2012 05:49 Navillus wrote: I mostly believe BH's claim, that said I don't have a target that I would rather switch to, I don't like the lesser but still existing possibility that he's using this as mafia as a last ditch attempt to avoid the lynch, and frankly I don't really care. He's likely SK and no matter how much he sounds like he's trying to play pro-town his wincon is still just as much against us as it is against mafia, he will attempt to screw us in the end and he's a good player, I don't want to give him that chance. I am not going to be the stupid townie that thought we could control or contain him. He clearly will have a plan to win himself and I'm not gonna wait until we have to choose between letting him get the win or mafia. His argumentation here is akin to that of the mafia in Arkham Asylum. (A game where I belive youngminii was found out as scum because he focused a lot on killing the third party SK roles.) What's more concerning is that it doesn't seem to make any difference to him whether BH is mafia or SK, whereas to me, as town, whether he's SK or mafia means a huge deal. If he's mafia, it could be detrimental to us to not have him lynched today, but if he's an SK, I think that keeping him alive would increase our chances at winning, as even if he's roleblocked every night (which increases the chance of our potential RB/other power roles power not getting blocked) he'll still function just as any townie until we've caught a few scum (at which point we can probably just have him lynched anyway). I'd be fine with his post if he tried to argue that the risk of BH being mafia is too high (which I don't agree with) and that he'd rather just kill him than risk BH being mafia. What makes me suspicious is that he says that he doesn't care. The last part of his post also contains an appeal to emotion, which isn't always a scum tell, but it is certainly a bad argument on why we should lynch BH. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
If you're town, and you think there's a 50% chance I'm actually Mafia and don't want to unvote me, that's ok. But at least TALK about zelblade. He's playing EXACTLY like his scum meta this game and I've laid it out so easily even It's like I have to force you guys to act like townies. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I'll provide a link to it (link to the sexy zelblade case) to make everyone's life easier. | ||
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 13 2012 03:07 ghost_403 wrote: I have every intention of discussing a Zelblade lynch, just not with you. Regardless of your claims, you are fundamentally anti-town, and any discussion involving you will be tainted by your alignment. You are a problem that we as a town have to deal with before we can start discussing other lynch candidates. See, that's funny. That's very funny. Cause I didn't say you had to unvote me. I also think you know as well as I do that if I *am* the SK, I need to lynch scum today. Discuss the zelblade case, now, before I flip, and when I flip SK it'll be clear my zelblade case is honest. In fact, Don't even discuss it with me-- discuss it with fuckin Shraft. HE'S RIGHT THERE AND HE VOTED ZELBLADE. On June 12 2012 21:20 ghost_403 wrote: @Shraft: Give me a good reason to lynch zelblade. Is not a good response. Imaginary poster wrote: I think zelblade is town because of X, Y, and Z. Blazinghand's analysis is flawed Here, here, and here. You didn't add to it, so I have debunked this lynch This has generated a lively town discussion! Is a great response! | ||
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
On June 13 2012 01:50 ghost_403 wrote: @shraft: I'm much more interested in why you think we should be lynching zelblade. Blazinghand wrote that solely to save his own skin. Do you really stand by everything that he said in that post? Shraft is the one who doesn't want to discuss it, unless I missed his post between here and the top of the page. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 13 2012 03:11 ghost_403 wrote: Shraft is the one who doesn't want to discuss it, unless I missed his post between here and the top of the page. Ok, that's a fair point. I guess I just don't consider you interacting with shraft and completely ignoring the merits of the case (which can be judged objectively-- just read it and see if it makes sense, and comment on it) to be good enough. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On June 12 2012 09:59 Blazinghand wrote: I'm here to talk about Zelblade. He's scum. My argument against him is mostly going to be analysis, but I'll talk about his meta as well. The two sources I'm using for his meta are LI, in which he was scum (link) and MTG Mini, in which he was town (link) to get a better understanding of how he plays. 1) Zelblade played D1 start to his scum meta. To get an idea of how Zelblade starts his scum games off, in LI he opened up with a bunch of questions and soft-defenses of town players (link)(link 2). This basically lets him make some minor contributions until he can find a safe wagon to hop on (link) but only after someone else, a townie, has made a case against that guy (link). He's not afraid to break ground with his vote, but he doesn't make any new cases. I'm not gonna talk about his D2 play from LI, because of the notorious 2-way bus that game-- our D2 was the opposite situation, where two players that weren't in his Scum QT where attacking each other. In his town play, Zelblade is different. As he goes into MTG, Zelblade is lurking but comes out swinging with a case against VE AND a case against NT (link). Also, as an aside, he seems utterly unafraid to lurk. He's apologetic about it, but he goes long periods of times, sometimes days, posting like once or twice in a 24 hour span with meh posts. He's admittedly a low-post-count player, but he doesn't put a lot of effort into "appearing" town when he's town. He'll disappear 20 hours, make a one-line post (link), then disappear for another 20 hours without contributing. When he comes back, he comes back with a read and a vote (link). I would hardly call that a case. It's two paragraphs. What you've posted right now is a case, what he posted in that post were some mild accusations. He's also asked a bunch of questions in MTG mafia. Three questions in a row: On May 22 2012 17:49 zelblade wrote: By the way is there a voting thread. Because I dont see one and the OP states that there is one. On May 22 2012 17:56 zelblade wrote: Hey marv who are you suspicious of at this point besides mattchew? Can you also clearly state why you think nova is town based off meta alone? Because I cant see it being similar. On May 22 2012 18:05 zelblade wrote: Acid so what do you think of nova now? Why is marvellosity buddying with nova a scummy thing to do? And he had many more questions. The lurking behavior is a sketchy claim at best; he's been inactive as both scum and town, though I will give you that he does appear to put in more effort when he's scum. I also don't feel he's put a lot of effort in "appearing" town in this game. Can you pinpoint out the exact posts this game where you feel he tried to "appear town"? So how does Zelblade play here? Well, he starts off asking weird questions (link) and making a soft defense based on setup that was inherently reasonable (link). Typical Scum Zelblade. And as soon as the heat picks up on Pandain, he hops right on board. To really contextualize his Pandain vote, let's check out how he responds to claims. I just showed how Zelblade asked questions in MTG mafia too, which means it complies with both his town and scum meta. He also hopped on the VE bandwagon in MTG mafia, and the Mouldy Jeb mafia earlier as well. You seem to find things that correspond with how he played scum and then completely negate to search for if he did these things as town too, which he has. 2. Zelblade voted Pandain like he does in scum meta. As town he distrusts weird claims: (link), especially ones without check crumbs (link) to back them up, and immediately calls out Zealos for a bad claim. Sounds like that informed his Pandain reaction, but when we see HOW he went about it, it's a lot more like his scum play than his town play. His reactions to Pandain's claim and Pandain's play D1 match his D1 scum play in LI almost perfectly. He calls out Pandain for diverting the discussion WHILE hiding behind other player's arguments (link): JUST as he did in LI with his case and vote against Tunkeg AFTER ET made the initial case against Tunkeg (link) This is how Zelblade operates as scum: he finds a townie who's already been pushed, usually for saying something irrelevant, but also talks about the D1 candidate "wasting town's time" or "diverting discussion" in addition to reciting main components of the case the others have. What I'm seeing in these two different threads (one as mafia, one as town), the main difference I see is how much Zelblade tries to put in effort when he's scum to look town. Zelblade has jumped on bandwagons both as town and as scum though, so bandwagoning Pandain is not something that points to Zelblade being scum. The second part holds more water, but isn't enough for me to consider him mafia. Contrast his town play in MTG when he votes to lynch MJ (link), in which he shoots down other cases and notably does not need to justify his case with talk about sidetracking the town, even though MJ WAS full of weird statements about consolidating evidence, jumping to conclusions, and odd vote justifications and non-justifications. He voted who he wanted lynched without fear and without worrying about repercussions. He talks about other players being scummy, but says this target is the most scummy. He does not waffle and waver. He doesn't justify his vote or ameliorate the hard edges his case with lip-flapping. His D1 vote on Pandain looks JUST LIKE his D1 LI vote, and nothing like his voting and case-making when he's scum. This is Zelblade trying to deflect attention and make up easy reasons to vote easy targets, just like when he was scum in LI. Wait, isn't he just talking about his case in both the previous two posts? It seems he pays more attention to making cases when he's scum rather than when he's town, where he talked more about the other suspects in the quoted posts. Section 3: Zelblades Reaction to Hyaach v BH is scummy regardless of Meta Zalblade's D2 vote on me (link) and his D1 vote on Pandain, coupled with the accompanying cases, look exactly like his scum voting, and nothing like his town voting. In fact, he spent so much time talking about how much he was "bugged" that scum would make my roleclaim and how Hyaach, who had to be town if I was scum, gave him "scummy vibes" that I thought he was voting to lynch Hyaach, not me. Hey look, we have an actual argument. I like this point. I just searched zelblade's history on MTG mafia and saw him post nothing of the sort. Look a tthis post and this vote. This isn't what a town player would do. If you were unsure, you would cast a vote for BH and say "yeah he looks scummier" and yeah, if you're gonna be afk for the rest of the day, you lay out your thoughts. But read this post and ask yourself-- is this how a town player writes a case, or how a scum player tries to duck responsibility and come out looking townie at the same time? In fact, this is not how Zelblade ends any of his vote posts as town-- he never feels the need to justify himself or fill himself full of doubts like this. He probably anticipated me not flipping Mafia and didn't want to look too bad on the wagon. Typical scum play. This doesn't look at all like MtG Zelblade. This looks like LI Zelblade. This looks like scum. Let's vote him, and not waste a lynch on the SK who wants to help town. I don't like how his vote looks either. Yet I have seen many vote like this and still flip up town. However, this point coupled with him talking more about scummy vibes this game than his town game do give me the impression that Zelblade is red, where the first two points were more null. I might change my vote, I'm not sure yet. Giving some examples in this game where he tries to "appear" green would be helpful. | ||
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Katina
United States454 Posts
I also recommend ignoring anything that Blazinghand says. He's clearly anti town and anything he says is meant to confuse us and throw us on the wrong track. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
He contradicts himself on FK's innocence following a "scumslip": link1, link2 On June 06 2012 22:49 zelblade wrote: I took his word for it and didnt check the OP -_- I dont think that him claiming that there was 4 scum is scummy since its a somewhat plausible assumption and may be the norm where he plays, but him lying about it being in the op is just... On June 06 2012 22:52 zelblade wrote: I am actually willing to lynch furekip based on that alone. As said, there is no townie reasoning possible to lie about something like that. Sure scumslips are usually made by townies but I dont think that they would lie about their reasoning like this. The only problem with this is that it is so dumb as mafia too -_- So furekip why did you lie about it? This (link) strikes me as kinda a dumb question that implies "oh, I don't know if RB stops mafia NK, since I am a town player who didn't know what took place last night" by asking it. Subtle attempt at towncred. On June 08 2012 08:46 zelblade wrote: Does rb stop mafia's night kill? There's also some weirdness regarding his transition from thinking I'm innocent to thinking I'm guilty D2. I think Zelblade wanted to appear to be gradually convinced, but he kinda fucked it up. Check it out. June 09 00:03 KST (link) On June 09 2012 00:03 zelblade wrote: Main reason I trusted BH's claim was that I didnt think that he would do it as scum. //snip// He could have pulled the SK card after mislynching hyaach in this case, but it was very unlikely that it would have worked considering how he didnt exactly look stellar either. Scum probably isnt willing to pull off this sort of trade d2. (I THINK) There are a lot of things regarding BH that seem off to me though, will explain more on that tomorrow. So, this looks like a somewhat undecided zelblade. Things "seem off" to him-- zelblade wants to setup his change of heart. Now, 10 hours later: (link) we see hm asking me about my meta (an issue that has been the case since early D1, but had somewhat subsided by D2). Clearly, my meta is on his mind, and, as he mentions in his vote post (link), the same scummy vote post I mentioned earlier, he's voting me because of these meta issues that Ghost brought to the forefront. Now, this is really weird. Because Ghost didn't bring up the meta issues until June 09 08:00 KST. Other than the meta issues, Zelblade doesn't mention the reasons he had 8 hours prior to ghosts post, whne he said On June 09 2012 00:03 zelblade wrote: There are a lot of things regarding BH that seem off to me though, will explain more on that tomorrow. This is super scummy. He actually didn't have any reasons, he wanted for another player to put some forwards, then hid in the shadow of those reasons, and made an unbelievably scummy vote post that hedged either way. Why that vote post? He's Mafia. He knew during D2, after his team shot me and failed, that I was either the JKed or I was an SK. After my vigi claim and Hyaach's JK claim, he knew for sure that I was the SK, since Hyaach JKed VE. He had to write a post that he could backtrack after either of us flipped. He wrote this way because he knew exactly who was who after the roleclaims. He hid in the shadow of Ghost. | ||
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