EPT##Vote: risk.nuke
Pick Your Poison Mafia - Page 3
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
##Vote: risk.nuke | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:57 prplhz wrote: Also, since no one claimed roleblocked we can assume that they have a 2-shot framer, and since two cycles have passed we can be kind of sure that he used both his shots. Since we don't have any other visiting roles and a night killing scum will always visit someone, our tracker is essentially a cop now. So make sure you breadcrumb everything for everybody else in case you die. This is not necessarily true. I pointed this out yesterday - if mafia got roleblocker they probably wouldn't use it at all, because using it on anyone non-mafia would result in a townie learning that there's a roleblocker and therefore that 2 of the framer voters are scum. Also consider that you're probably right about them giving town a tracker and innocent child (unless we have a really dumb medic and an equally risky scum team) - why bother with roleblocking in that situation when you only have 1 person out of 9 that you could possible affect? (The GMs never answered me if a roleblocker would be allowed to not use their power - if they had to use it then they could just use it on their scumbuddies.) _________________ State of this game: prp and hiro are likely town because of their interactions with toad. It would actually be really funny if they're the last two scum and toad just wanted to bus someone early and often so that two of them could win it in the endgame or something. But very unlikely. sloosh and kurumi are wild cards. both voted toad, sloosh with a little more reasoning, kurumi more quietly. I think they should be nearer the end of lynch orders. Behaviorally, sloosh has been playing the town boyscout role, doing all the homework-y stuff like tabulating votes and cross-checking encryptions and such while kurumi has just stirred the pot and that all is null to me. zephirdd, sbrubbles, and risk nuke have two scum among them. zeph and sbrubbles reacted basically the same way to the toad situation which is kind of weird (see their posts page 26). Either zeph posted what he did because he knew he needed to build distance between both himself and toad + risk, and sbrubbles just sheeped it as town, or sbrubbles saw what zeph did as a blueprint to copy for him to build distance etc etc. Both have some D1 points against them in that toad stated that he was against a zeph lynch and that sbrubbles followed toad on the hiropro lynch. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
-Both put some pressure on hiro (sbrubbles more so D1) as did toad. -Both said toad was scummy but that risk.nuke was a better alternative. Their posts are strikingly similar. -Toad never commented on sbrubbles like he said he would; toad also openly stated he thought lynching zephirdd was a bad idea, but gave no reason why (on D1). -Zeph's fake blue claim and retraction makes little sense at first but given that innocent child + tracker is likely it actually makes a lot of sense. He couldn't keep the blue claim up or it would come back to bite him later. -Sbrubbles has simply done nothing the whole game, aside from pushing hiropro. Everyone else has either contributed or been at the wrong end of toad's finger. Relevant quotes: + Show Spoiler + HiroPro On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote: That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf? On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote: Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB. Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk. I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over. If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd. On June 01 2012 03:45 Zephirdd wrote: Hiro, why would you pick Godfather, aka the NULL vote? On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote: Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote: I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0? On June 02 2012 07:00 Sbrubbles wrote: First of all, one thing we've got to remember is that we can only afford 1 NL, and it's better that we use it up later and not sooner. If worse comes to worse, with no NL and no doc saves, we may reach a day 5 mylo, which should be NL followed by lylo day 6 (with the plus side that we can pick and waste whatever poison we want day 5, since it will be NL). Lynching Nautillus would be going for a lurker lynch and I don't think we have to resort to that yet. Also, between lurkers, I'd rather lynch risk.nuke, whose only contribution was to throw dirt and dissapear without any explanation: + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote: I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie. On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird. Hiro simply hasn't posted anything since back then. His behaviour was reasonably active on D0, so I don't buy that it wasn't clear to him "that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker". His case on Zephirdd was that Zephirdd hadn't contributed to the discussion, though Zephirdd was asking questions, like Sloosh was doing, which is a reasonable way to get discussion going early on. Hiro's filter before that case, though, consisted of just as little discussion, except for mechanics talk, which mafia can also do. He is playing scummy and we should lynch him today. ##Vote: HiroPro @Sloosh: The point is not that he voted GF, but that he voted GF while saying that he preferred framer over roleblocker (and changed his vote from roleblocker not to framer, but to GF). Defending zephirdd: On June 02 2012 10:38 Sbrubbles wrote: Of talis' case on Zephirdd, I just didn't see it. First and third parts are just Zephirdd attacking using meta-accusations (which 9 times out of 10 I ignore) and second part was pressuring you (who I also wanted to pressure). He was attacking everyone, but at least it looked like he was trying to get the ball rolling. + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2012 13:01 talismania wrote: If both truly are red herrings, they're likely good things for scum to try and latch onto and drive momentum towards. With that in mind, consider zepphird: First he kind of fishes around on Radfield: Then he drives the HiroPro story a bit: Then, after no one else is jumping on Radfield, he jumps off and hints at looking at Kurumi (who made the Radfield case): There's almost too much of it to be true but on first blow, to me, it is indicative of scum trying to get a feel for the way winds are blowing in the town, hence the FoS. On June 02 2012 08:09 Toadesstern wrote: Ok we need to get people in here. It's 1 am for me and I don't know how long I'll be awake. A zephird lynch still looks awful for me. Hiros voting him, risk is voting him, navillus is voting him. There's bound to be a mafia within those 3 and Kurumi and talis are nulls for me. That's really not as convincing as people make it look and we have 3 hours left... On toad and risk.nuke: On June 04 2012 10:53 Zephirdd wrote: Hey guys I'm back. skimmed through the thread but I grasped the idea. First of all, I love Toad's AtE. I used that on Sleeper Cell II and we ended up in a draw(when it should have been an obvious scum win T_T). AtE = Appeal to Emotion Different games are different; If Radfield finds reasons to push Toadesstern every game, he is right to push Toadesstern every game. However I disagree on the "scumslip": Saying "see you on day2" isn't indicative of alignment at all in my opinion. It's not a slip, it's not "knowing you will live". It's just saying it. However, other points still stand: Toadesstern's cases aren't good. They fit the scumagenda. Saying HiroPro had "basically claimed mafia", the wbg case, etc. I don't think Toad is the right lynch target right now though. Have you guys seen risk.nuke? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340727&user=76576 ^his amazing filter. 1. Read it(it's short guys, you probably would read it faster than you could read Radfield's case on prplhz) 2. Search for anything that makes sense from a town perspective 3. Laugh at it 4. Vote him In case it's not obvious, what you find in this filter is blatant sheeping, lack of substance and terrible logic for pushing a mislynch(which would be my lynch). Besides, his lack of activity is gigantic; Not only that, but he is not showing his overconfidence of his town self. I mean, he usually just does whatever the f* he wants, throws accusations at people and show confidence. Here he is sheeping people and pointing fingers at everyone(look at his hiro/sloosh/zephirdd post). Lynch risk! On June 04 2012 20:25 Sbrubbles wrote: Hey guys, I'm here. Weekend was a bit crazy for me. Lemme comment on the current topics: On prplhz's case, I dissagree that his argument, on making sure mafia knew they were getting roleblocker so that we'd be sure of what they have, was scummy. I still think it is wrong, but I saw merit in Rad's case for it. Prplhz posting D1 (pre-Nav switch) was null to me (he pressured wbg based on meta and voted for me without much of an argument). Not the best way to conduct discussion by far, but it didn't feel like he was actively trying to mislead. I do think his Nav switch was funky though. His argument boils down to "I want a lynch. I didn't want to before because the last game he lurked, came back saying he was sorry and was town. Now he doesn't look like he's sorry". + Show Spoiler + On June 02 2012 09:02 prplhz wrote: Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me." I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time. I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before. Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think. ##Unvote Sbrubbles ##Vote Navilus Thinking on Toad, I agree with most of Rad's case. It was strange him suddenly calling wbg scum D1 (without an explanation, after treating him as null) and that it was odd for him to be focusing so much on the fact that prplhz defended Nav. I don't see "see you D2" as a scumslip. Right now I'm leaning more scum on Toad than on prplhz, but, that said, I think risk.nuke is our best lynch for today: 1) His D1 is comprised of accusing a total of 4 people, without explanations, + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote: I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie. On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird. + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 02:54 risk.nuke wrote: Dearest Kurumi, I am Mr. Lovett. lets make some Radpie. 2) Followed by him pushing Zeph during N1. This smells of a scum push because 1) his reasons aren't clear (he poses the Zeph lynch as both an information lynch and a scum lynch) and 2) uses the mafia kill, which is a minefield of wifom, as his primary argument (using it as an additional argument is doable, but this is not the case), which, actually, is the only argument he chooses to discuss. + Show Spoiler + On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote: I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons. 1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town. 2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). Also, @Radfield, I mentioned he preferred framer to roleblocker, not to godfather. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
I dunno if this is against the TL rules (this is only my third game here) but I don't see the point in playing this out. What you say? You guessed it - scum resigns! GG town. Scum QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/2qFy6VgjSnW Why are we resigning at sort-of mylo? (1) Sbrubbles is scum. He is also the framer. He is getting lynched today and I can't get him out of it. That immediately points the finger at me or prp, and there's no way I can win that debate. (2) Sbrubbles also already resigned. You may have noticed he hasn't posted much recently. During the night, be PM'd me and apologized for his play. Apparently being scum for the first time was really stressful for him and he had a lot of anxiety because of it. He's taking a hiatus from the game to sort that out. Hope you feel better bud! (3) My last chance is gone. I had hoped to do the following: -Fakeclaim tracker before the innocent child came out. -Force the real tracker to counterclaim -Pray to god that the real tracker was kurumi, because he's the only one I had the chance of beating 1 on 1 -Get the mislynch and win the voting race the next day However, sloosh screwed that up by coming out so quickly and putting the kibosh on the real tracker coming out. At that point it made no sense for me to come to the thread. As you can see if you read the scum qt, I toyed with many variants of this idea but could find few that would work, and none exist in this reality! (4) I'm going to MLG this weekend >_> ____________________________ My thoughts on the mistakes in the game: Scum missteps: (1) The hiropro push. It just didn't feel right to me. It was too opportunistic. (2) Sbrubbles being new. It happens, but he didn't know how to gain towncred. (3) Real or not, the "scumslip" Town missteps: (1) Risk.nuke. lol. ________________ General strategy thoughts: There's three ways to win this game as scum. With all three players alive (end of D3), with two players alive (end D4), or with one player alive (end D5). Our problem as a scumteam in general was not realizing this soon and enough and planning accordingly. While I had an inkling that this setup could not be won without bussing in some regard, I didn't fully realize the importance of that tactic until the game began to progress. By that point, we had already settled into a de facto "win with three" condition. It would be much stronger to try for a win with two and have two of the scum bus the third hard, leading the charge, and do so early (maybe D1 - certainly by D2). Town cred is everything in a setup this small, and the kind of incremental town cred I had this game could not make up for the immense town cred players like prp, hiro, and radfield achieved. Our rolepicks were fine. Tracker and innocent child aren't particularly great for town, particulary since we defaulted into a 3 player wincon. I think vigilante + tracker would be a great combo as well for scum trying to go for a 2 player wincon. If only I had thought that through beforehand :-( _________________ Thoughts on kills and lynches: D1 - Navilus. This was a bad lynch for us for one reason only: he was a roleblocker voter. He would have been very useful to me if he were still in the game now, for instance, because I'm positive I can easily make myself look townier than he could. We should have lynched zephirdd, but curious circumstances intervened. Even if I were town this game I would have wanted to lynch zephirdd (though sbrubbles would have been a close second). N1 - WBG. Killed for no other reason other than that toad thought he was the most dangerous of the framer voters. I initially wanted to kill sloosh (if only...) because I thought he was playing the strongest at the time, but backed off because of concerns that might implicate sbrubbles too much (and sbrubbles was already under some scrutiny). D2- Toad. Radfield nailed his ass to the wall. I saw this coming a mile away and immediately began putting in as much distance as I could. Sidenote: I really don't think the timing of my vote was that bad. I would have done the same as town. I waited like five minutes for prp to actually place the hammer and he didn't. N2 - Radfield. An obvious choice. I considered letting him live with dreams of an epic endgame in my mind but then reality slapped me in the face. D3 - risk.nuke. Not much to say about this one haha. You all sheeped radfield hard, but not for terrible reason. If I were town this game I would not have gone along with this so willingly, as risk.nuke's behavior made no sense if he was partnered with toad. N3 - I killed zephirdd because I knew I was going to call zephirdd out in my night post, and I was planning on the whole fake tracker thing anyway. I wanted another thing to say when the debate was going on "Why would I kill zephirdd when I was pushing him?" especially if it was me vs kurumi, of whom zephirdd had stated suspicions. -------------------------- Player comments: Toad - I'm sorry it ended like it did for you. The hiropro thing was a mistake, and the scumslip even though you actually meant it how you explained it was just plain unfortunate. You played pretty ok I thought until Radfield did his thing. Sbrubbles - it was your first scum game! I hope you recover from the anxiety of being suspected and all that. Feel better. It is just a game on the internet. me - I played pretty well for a while until the walls started closing in. I'm proud of the fact that no one publicly suspected me at all until it became clear at the end. Fooling Radfield gained me a lot of breathing room, for instance. That said, most of this pride is probably misplaced in that no one here has played with me that much and knows that I'm actually good. For future refernce: when I'm scum, I appear pro-town. When I'm town, I appear REALLY pro-town. I can't remember the last time I got mislynched. radfield - town mvp, obviously. You were all over the place and flat-out wrong on me and sbrubbles. But you got toad right, and with toad gone, the whole game was blown wide open. sloosh - you were the townie boyscout, as I called you. I only wish I had stuck to my gut and pushed to kill you N1. Toad didn't view you as that dangerous but it was clear to me you were putting in a lot of positive effort. hiropro - I don't know who the real tracker is but I guess it's you? You were playing hard as well, with a lot of good engagement. Well done. prplhz - you played strangely but, in the end, effectively. Having toad push for your lynch was the best thing that happened to you. zephirdd - you did things so blatantly scummy a scum player would never do them. I tried getting you lynched for it and it should have worked if Radfield hadn't mistakenly seen your "blueclaim". Sidenote on the blueclaim - if you read the scum QT, I caught it as well and we were all convinced you were blue too. Then radfield had to go and see it and call off the lynch :-( kurumi - Kurumi kurumi. you (or should I write You with a capital y?) were the only one who knew me well enough to know that I could have been playing better. It took you long enough to think of it, but as soon as I saw your "ah fuck" post followed by the encrypted message, I knew I was done in for. Well done. WBG - eh you weren't playing that hard. we should have let you live. navilus - poor guy. I really wish we hadn't lynched you. __________________ Finally, thanks to our wonderful hosts for the game. I loved the flavor, and the quirky debates over what majority actually was. The win condition in this game would have been funky though - for instance, if there was a mislynch today it actually wouldn't be game over. It would be 2-2 going into the next day, and if the two townies got their votes in on a mafia first, then actually town would have a chance (they'd have to do the same thing the next day) because of how the tiebreaker rules are written. Fortunately it won't come to that. I apologize if we didn't give you as interesting a game as you might have hoped! | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On June 09 2012 21:50 Radfield wrote: [...] I thought Talismania was town based mainly on the fact that the encryption idea was his. However I had a note down that while he came up with the idea, he did not appear to fully realize it's potency in that mafia could get caught lying and give us a list-check(which we ended up getting). I should have made a bigger deal out of that, as that is a very scum thing to do; pushing a plan, but not for the right reasons. It's similar to Toad pushing prplhz for the wrong reasons, and is a common mafia trait(because it's hard to see things from a mafia point of view). [...] Actually, I thought it was pretty obvious that was the reason for doing it. I left it unsaid but I probably would have made the exact same post as town. I wanted to clarify later, but then sbrubbles did it and I figured there was no point after that. The real reason you should have thought I was scum is that there's an even more potent usage for encryption that I didn't reveal :-) | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On June 09 2012 20:35 Toadesstern wrote: I did that man. Just look at how risk got lynched. That was on purpose :3 About our game: I think we all did somewhat good but we really lacked teamplay. Everyone did what he thought was best without asking the rest first and we really needed irc  When Rad did his case talis bussed me instantly saying the game is over althouth I had 3 townies saying they're not willing to vote me (when majority is 5 having 3 townies + 3 mafias on your side is quite a thing). With Talis help I could have survived easily imo. OR we should have bussed me all together making both talis and sbrubbles look good but that way with everyone doing something different we just ended up in a horrible position. Sad thing sbrubbles apparently had some problems of his own and had to quit which left talis alone vs the rest With proper teamplay this game could have gone either way but I was to lazy to set up an irc channel :p The problem toad is that if I didn't bus you, what would have happened D3? We would have all been at mylo, sure, but who do we get mislynched? Prp? Zephirdd? It would have been an uphill struggle. Then again it might have been a better chance that what ended up happening. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
My reasoning for going ahead and pushing the encryption was that I assumed it would gain me town cred but also not hurt us. If the vote was split, we'd have to split our votes anyway (encryption or not) and I figured that town would settle on one dominant role, which would make the votes meaningless. So kurumi's push of framer really hurt. I thought that radfield's roleblocker push should have won out, and in hindsight I wish I had acted along toad's lines and really pushed for roleblocker. It is weaker than framer IMO. | ||
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