EPTMagic: The Gathering Mini Mafia - Page 58
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Nova_Terra
Switzerland1190 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On May 26 2012 07:11 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't understand why a scum would put themselves in a harder position by talking about a claim they clearly know is fake. The hardest thing to fake is a town response to something you know is not true, e.g. the towniness of an ally or the validity of an ally's claim. So no, your argument is trash. My argument is "trash" you say? You're not intentionally trying to aggravate me, nooooooooo. Katina wouldn't have thought "Gee willakers, I don't know how I'm going to fake a town response to Zealos' fake-claim...maybe I should just not mention it....that seems like a reasonable action given the psychological factors in play"...you're fucking high Bugs. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
How about we wait until tomorrow to decide who to lynch because we don't know who scum are going to kill? Oh that's right, because you do. Nevermind, muse away Bugs. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 26 2012 07:16 VisceraEyes wrote: My argument is "trash" you say? You're not intentionally trying to aggravate me, nooooooooo. Katina wouldn't have thought "Gee willakers, I don't know how I'm going to fake a town response to Zealos' fake-claim...maybe I should just not mention it....that seems like a reasonable action given the psychological factors in play"...you're fucking high Bugs. That is the one post I've purposely used a demeaning word and it was "trash," and you spin it for your own agenda. Nice. If you're town and you're playing like this, no, I did not disrespect you as a player, I respected your abilities. However if you are indeed town this game then yes, I no longer respect it as your play both here and in Liar Game has been damn awful and you seriously need to reconsider how you approach scumhunting. Go back and reread the postgame of liar game if you're still perplexed. However, I am increasingly convinced that you are NOT town and you are scum because if Ver told you that needlessly poking people repeatedly is not a way to scumhunt then if you rolled town you would have actually listened to him. You're stretching every single argument you make to make me look bad. Every single one. Scum choose simple over complex. They're not going to simply mention something they don't have to mention if they can get away with it. Of course that's not what she would have thought if she was scum. If she was scum she wouldn't have wanted to talk about the claim because talking about it is hard. She wouldn't know what to say. What do scum do when they don't know what to say? They don't say anything. That's why I called Zealos scum; when marvellosity presented a case against him he ignored almost all of it because he didn't know how to respond to it. When scum are surprised or taken aback by something they don't respond to it like townies do; townies respond genuinely. Scum either respond in a manner that motivationally makes little sense from a town perspective or they ignore it. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 26 2012 07:18 VisceraEyes wrote: LOL How about we wait until tomorrow to decide who to lynch because we don't know who scum are going to kill? Oh that's right, because you do. Nevermind, muse away Bugs. you think scum are going to kill acid then? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
What do you think Zealos hoped to achieve by claiming? Let's say for now, Scenario A: Hiro is townie. Two things can come of his claim: 1) people believe him for the moment and lynch Hiro, who flips town, and Zealos gets auto-lynched the next day 2) people don't believe him and he gets lynched immediately. So it's either a 1 for 1 (never normally good for mafia) or it's a straight up death. I haven't done it yet but the one thing I really really need to do is go back and see just how many votes Zealos had at the time he 'breadcrumbed' his check. So, at best in this scenario, Zealos is making a 50% play for a 1 for 1. Or there is scenario B Hiro is scum. Two things can come of the claim 1) people don't believe him and Zealos gets lynched, Hiro gets town credit, especially as he's been attacking Zealos 2) people believe him, Hiro gets lynched as scum and Zealos gets a butt-tonne of town credit for 'catching' a scum Further thoughts: why did Zealos choose Hiro? Seriously, think about this. The easiest way for people to believe your claim is if people believe your target is scummy. Zealos could have chosen, say, zelblade who he even made a case on. He could have chosen Nova_Terra (bolding because choosing him absolutely seems the logical play) who was under HEAVY pressure. Nova would absolutely have been the best guy to fake a claim on. He could even have chosen Katina the uberlurker. But he chose Hiro, who had, what, no suspicion on him? Did anyone suspect Hiro before Zealos' fabricated case on him? All this leads me to think Scenario B is the most likely. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Why undermine my efforts when I've pushed to kill a scum? Marvellosity and I did most of the work today in scraping together votes to try and kill Zealos. Now that I point out that in light of Zealos flipping scum Acid looks very bad, you undermine my thoughts. Why don't you actually refute them with evidence? Go look at Acid's posts. When Zealos claims DT, he instantly uses a weak excuse to believe the claim and moves his vote off. When he's asked to take a stance between zelblade and zealos, he uses a weak reason to choose zelblade despite considering zealos rather scummy (when zelblade wasn't even mentioned) before that. He calls marvellosity's case weak for no apparent reason and never actually backs up his assertion. Do you have explanations for any of these things other than Acid being scum? It's Occam's Razor at its finest here. In order to explain Acid not being scum in light of his actions then you'd need evidence, right? Except for you, since I call Acid scum your easiest way of undermining that effort is to call me scum. Great. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
YOU were the one talking about not talking about reads, not me Bugs...I'm trying to hold you accountable for what you've said THIS game bugs, HERE AND NOW. YOU are the one who has excused your bullshit with "I'm not going to talk about my reads when it can affect what scum are going to do"...not me. And here it is, Night Phase, and you're discussing your reads when it can affect what scum are going to do. Now, I don't know what else you want me to do - this isn't me "twisting" anything to "make you look bad", these are just facts. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 26 2012 07:26 marvellosity wrote: Nova/Matt - have a think about this. What do you think Zealos hoped to achieve by claiming? Let's say for now, Scenario A: Hiro is townie. Two things can come of his claim: 1) people believe him for the moment and lynch Hiro, who flips town, and Zealos gets auto-lynched the next day 2) people don't believe him and he gets lynched immediately. So it's either a 1 for 1 (never normally good for mafia) or it's a straight up death. I haven't done it yet but the one thing I really really need to do is go back and see just how many votes Zealos had at the time he 'breadcrumbed' his check. So, at best in this scenario, Zealos is making a 50% play for a 1 for 1. Or there is scenario B Hiro is scum. Two things can come of the claim 1) people don't believe him and Zealos gets lynched, Hiro gets town credit, especially as he's been attacking Zealos 2) people believe him, Hiro gets lynched as scum and Zealos gets a butt-tonne of town credit for 'catching' a scum Further thoughts: why did Zealos choose Hiro? Seriously, think about this. The easiest way for people to believe your claim is if people believe your target is scummy. Zealos could have chosen, say, zelblade who he even made a case on. He could have chosen Nova_Terra (bolding because choosing him absolutely seems the logical play) who was under HEAVY pressure. Nova would absolutely have been the best guy to fake a claim on. He could even have chosen Katina the uberlurker. But he chose Hiro, who had, what, no suspicion on him? Did anyone suspect Hiro before Zealos' fabricated case on him? All this leads me to think Scenario B is the most likely. We need to consider Hiro on his own terms because arguments about whether he's scum or not in light of Zealos flipping scum are kind of wifomy. Like, if you remember LI with the Toad/VE thing, in a situation like this when a scum flips after having pushed someone else pretty heavily, you have almost no way of knowing what the other guy is except based on his own behavior. In LI that was apparent through Toad's own behavior like his own bad claim and his own lack of scumhunting. Hiro hasn't particularly scumhunted but he'll be forced to now that Zealos is dead and the main pressure is gone. So, we take this upcoming day to watch him carefully. Is he a good lynch for tomorrow? No, as we need a bit of time to determine his alignment. I would say though, that tomorrow is a great time to lynch Acid or Katina. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 26 2012 07:30 VisceraEyes wrote: Do I? I don't know, I think scum are going to kill who scum kill...but you talking about his lynch 17 seconds after the night post pretty much ensures they don't, now doesn't it? YOU were the one talking about not talking about reads, not me Bugs...I'm trying to hold you accountable for what you've said THIS game bugs, HERE AND NOW. YOU are the one who has excused your bullshit with "I'm not going to talk about my reads when it can affect what scum are going to do"...not me. And here it is, Night Phase, and you're discussing your reads when it can affect what scum are going to do. Now, I don't know what else you want me to do - this isn't me "twisting" anything to "make you look bad", these are just facts. anyone with half a brain would know scum would never shoot acid. I am discussing these things now because I need to convince vigis to shoot these people. There are no scum medics so there's no harm in that. There was no way either of katina or acid were going to get shot by scum, either. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Now, I'm against directing vigs (as always) aside from saying they should be shooting into lurkers (who include at the moment Acid and Katina among others)....so I'm definitely not against THAT, but that's not at all what you said...you were talking about them in the context of "our next lynch". When you talk about them in that context, it makes it seem like you want them to live the night Bugs, so it didn't appear at all like you were directing vigs. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 26 2012 07:38 VisceraEyes wrote: You realize that when you say things like "anyone with half a brain" you're demeaning whoever it is that you're talking to right? Like, I know you're not this abrasive out of game, so that's part of why I feel like you're playing with an agenda Bugs, that's all I'm saying. Now, I'm against directing vigs (as always) aside from saying they should be shooting into lurkers (who include at the moment Acid and Katina among others)....so I'm definitely not against THAT, but that's not at all what you said...you were talking about them in the context of "our next lynch". When you talk about them in that context, it makes it seem like you want them to live the night Bugs, so it didn't appear at all like you were directing vigs. yes, I'm calling you dumb right now because playing with you in this game and having to consider that you might be town is causing me to lose brain cells. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I'll cool off in a bit, but it's honestly frustrating to have to deal with you when you play the way you do. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Vigis and lynch targets should always be the same, because both are aiming for the same goal; to kill scum. I never understood why people made the distinction between vig shots and lynches. The only difference really is that one person controls a vig shot and the entire town and scum combined control the lynch. Otherwise the goal for both sides is the same; aim the KP at the opposite faction. Thus if a player is a good lynch they make a good shot and vice versa. So, vigis, shoot at katina and acid, if they live we kill them tomorrow. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 26 2012 07:31 wherebugsgo wrote: that last post was @ VE btw, sorry. We need to consider Hiro on his own terms because arguments about whether he's scum or not in light of Zealos flipping scum are kind of wifomy. Like, if you remember LI with the Toad/VE thing, in a situation like this when a scum flips after having pushed someone else pretty heavily, you have almost no way of knowing what the other guy is except based on his own behavior. In LI that was apparent through Toad's own behavior like his own bad claim and his own lack of scumhunting. Hiro hasn't particularly scumhunted but he'll be forced to now that Zealos is dead and the main pressure is gone. So, we take this upcoming day to watch him carefully. Is he a good lynch for tomorrow? No, as we need a bit of time to determine his alignment. I would say though, that tomorrow is a great time to lynch Acid or Katina. I think you are too quick to dismiss it was wifomy. Of course it is somewhat speculative, and no we shouldn't lynch Hiro on the basis of this alone. But what is playing mafia about at its core? It is about motivations, and especially motivations behind actions. Here we have a very specific action (Zealos choosing Hiro to fake claim on) from a confirmed scum. It is absolutely necessary to think about why Zealos chose HiroPro. | ||
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