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On May 31 2012 09:02 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 07:18 VisceraEyes wrote:On May 28 2012 18:34 Zealos wrote:
Right so, here are my thoughts:
SnB - He's seemed "Fishy" this game so far, and I would be happy to FoS him, however, I don't think there is enough there to say it is a good lynch. I'd like to see him post more thoughts though.
Thoughts on Mayor: If possible, would the best mayor be the one that chooses the day1 lynch based off of a vote from town? Seems like this would be the most pro-town play?
Pardoner: Whoever agree's not to use the power ever seems to be the best bet. Yes, in some select scenario's it might be good to use it, but that seems to just be giving an excuse to any mafia player that could convince people that make him pardoner to use the power.
Now some of my reads: Toad - Seems to be very town provided he can prove it using his "mason" powers. If not, we can lynch him tomorrow.
BE - Leaning on town. His arguments earlier were annoying, but nothing that led me to think he's scum.
Hyaah - ???? Lurker, could well be scum, want to hear what he has to say about the game so far.
If I were to kill someone now: Sinesis - Been said before, but he's tunnelling very hard and doesn't seem willing to add anything to conversation except kill Grush. Who are your other scumreads? Who are you voting for as mayor and why?
I'd also like to note - I'm pretty lurky Day1 atm, I'm pretty busy, however, I'll have finished my last exam come midway through day2, and will become a lot more active then. Bugs I want your thoughts on this post, the bolded in particular. Here are mine. There's a cognitive disconnect between the "Toad seems to be very town" and "provided he can prove it using his 'mason' powers." The first part seems to indicate that he thinks Toad is town based on how he's posting (" looks very town"), while the second part seems to indicate that he does NOT think that Toad looks town and requires the proof of Toad's mason-target claim would provide (" provided he can prove it using his mason powers"). What do you think? Prob can you take a look at this post and my thoughts on it and comment? Bugs is too busy thinking I'm a dumbass to take anything I say seriously.
Weren't you implying the same thing?
You didn't want to vote him into office because he might get manipulated by scum. The way I read it, Zealos is saying that Toad can prove he is town when his mason actions occur. It is unlikely that scum would claim mason so early day 1 so it makes sense to assume Toad is town. But even so waiting till he confirms himself is not a bad play, in fact you were singing from the same song sheet.
This assumption is important
"The first part seems to indicate that he thinks Toad is town based on how he's posting ("looks very town")"
Why do you assume it is based on his posting and not his claim? It seems pretty townie to me to claim mason early.
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On May 31 2012 09:06 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 09:03 Probulous wrote:On May 31 2012 08:55 supersoft wrote:On May 31 2012 08:50 Probulous wrote:On May 31 2012 08:45 supersoft wrote:
solve of the mysterious riddle you struggle with: I thought your mason PM would be the first PM that goes out because everyone waited for that in the thread and Greymist obviously should have noticed that.
Don't hype that shit. Thanks, that is all I wanted. Like I said it was bugging me that is all. i have a different explanation. You were blue fishing weren't you? Docs and Jailers should get a PM if the save something, too right? Face meet palm  How exactly is asking how you "knew" that hit PMs were late when you weren't hit, role fishing? What he said: You asked him about this to find out wether or not he is one of the medics / jailers who protected someone ELSE. They get a pm as well.
So by asking super how he "knew", I was checking whether he is Jailer or Doc and got a late PM?
Ok I see that. That was not the reason for asking but I can see his point.
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On May 31 2012 09:08 jaj22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 08:48 Probulous wrote:Can someone link me the case against Zealos. He looks like an overwhelmed newb to me  Zealos isn't that new. I believe he has four games now, at least two as scum. His town performance in GoT wasn't bad at all, and certainly didn't give the impression of being overwhelmed. Forumite's case against him: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14866065Since then he's managed a few bad excuses and that's it.It's not a great case, but I don't think we have anything better.
Thanks jaj. What is your position on Zealos?
The reason I want something concrete is that I think Hyacch is a better lynch candidate. Forumite's case boilds down to
- Useless claim for no reason, little content, telling people to get along and drops a vote.
- Defends Toades for no reason at all, it wasn´t even much of a case on Toades, and definetly no wagon. Could be that he´s a town on edge, but I don´t like it.
- Not everyone was jumping on Toades, not that many really. Preemptive defence, could be to gain town credit, or defend a scumbuddy. It doesn´t feel like he´s as suspicious of Toades play as he should be as town.
- Best one of all, Zealos is basically saying he´s suspicious without taking responsibility. I´d like to say it´s scum guilt, a combination of knowing he´s accusing a townie and not wanting to take a stand in case it gets him into trouble once S&B flips.
The Toad doesn't matter because Toad is town (unless I am missing something). He isn't getting credit for his defense so it is pointless. His claim doesn't matter anyway because no-one puts any stock in them. The best point is that Zealos wasn't taking responsibility which applies to others as well. There is a concerted effort to lynch him and I want something substantial to work off.
Let's compare Zealos to Hyaach
On May 28 2012 22:58 Hyaach wrote:
On Kita's vote on me, I have no idea. He knew I wouldn't have a chance, and I was probably one of the newer names in this mafia game that posted decently early into the game. I actually saw his vote, but couldn't bother with it since it does not bother me or the way the thread was going.
Does no-one find this odd?
I mean, I would be like "WTF?" if someone voted for me when I hadn't posted anything of substance and wasn't running in the election.
On May 28 2012 22:58 Hyaach wrote:
Toad claiming mason is something else. Its very hard to prove his alignment as forumite pointed out. He could have claimed to be RBed everynight or until X day where he come clean with a mafia buddy.
So I'm not voting him as well.
This is illogical as we now know. If people are suspicious of VE for doubting Toad than surely this should get a closer look.
On May 28 2012 22:58 Hyaach wrote:
Mr Wiggles actually have a very transparent case so far and his is the best candidate imo.
Note this if followed by
If I could wake up in 8 hours time to reread and revote, I would do it. But for now my vote is
##vote Meapak_Ziphh
and before you say im contradicting myself which I am. I do not just want to wagon a vote, I have as much town read on Mr Wiggles as I have on Meapak_Ziphh. You may say but if you are town you would want to elect a strong candidate into Mayor. But I feel safer voting on town read by myself on someone who doesn't run for Mayor.
I believe most who ran campaigns has an agenda.
So he believes Wiggles is the best candidate but votes for MZ because he reads them as equally townie? This is so contradictory it looks like someone finding an excuse not to vote for Wiggles.
Oh and by the way he never came back to change his vote. I think Hyaach is a better lynch as his flip will hopefully provide an insight into Wiggles (hyaach was determined not to vote for him) and into Kita (who "randomly" picked someone not running as his early vote). Most importantly I think he is more likely to flip mafia than Zealos based on what has been presented.
Thoughts people?
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Kita why were you so worried about the lyncher getting the mayor role?
Based off of Grey's explanation about what they know
Assassin and Lyncher will not be shooting blind
it doesn't sound like they know who their target is day 1. Forumite's flip confirms this, they just know their targets character. So if the mayor was a lyncher they would have the same information as anyone else. It just seems so out of place to get worked up about the remote possibility that the lyncher would risk exposing themselves for the chance to decide a lynch when they have no extra information.
Surely the best play would have been to wait until they know who their target is adn then push for a lynch? You're a vet and well known for getting things right. So for you to miss something so obvious rings false.
Am I missing something?
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On May 31 2012 09:54 austinmcc wrote:I had not been lumping Hyaach in with the other lurkers who have become lynch candidates only because I remembered him lurking in Newbie XIII, and that we had some issues with the time zone making it so he wasn't active when things were happening. Personally I read those contradictions and illogical bits as a result of him being absolutely disinterested in the game. See posts like: + Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 14:26 Hyaach wrote:
How many hours till this day ends?
placer-vote until i read everything in around 8 hours On May 28 2012 22:58 Hyaach wrote:
Huge headache to read 15 pages of text with lots of emotions and random things inserted here and there.
. . .
If I could wake up in 8 hours time to reread and revote, I would do it. But for now my vote is
. . .
But it is still i think 8 hours till day ends? Plenty of time to decide. On May 31 2012 01:18 Hyaach wrote:
. . .
Gambit. I never read his filter yet.
. . .
Kita i didnt read. I'll admit though, he's actually made an effort to post each cycle as opposed to the rest of the crew, which DOES look scummy to me when compared to people who have had to be warned.
It is possible but remember he did make the effort to explain that Wiggles was the best candidate but he would vote for MZ. If you are completely uninterested in the game, why do that?
The only effort he had made has been to find an excuse not to support Wiggles. Why?
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So you think he is town because he acting like scum?
Jaj, come on. Do you agree that Forumite's case boils down to Zealos not taking responsibility for his actions? To me that applies to every lurker and so by choosing Zealos you are taking a shot in the dark. At least with Hyaach we have some evidence for his motivations.
Zealos keeps saying he will post stuff and that he is busy. I agree that it is detrimental to town to do that, but perhaps, just perhaps, he actually is busy. The point is he is making an effort to at minimum provide an excuse. Compare that to Cwave or phagga and you can see they have not even done that. So surely if you are happy to lynch a lurker, it should be one of them. If his lynch is based on something else, show me.
I suggest a better path, fuck the lurkers and lynch Hyaach as he clearly had motivations for posting what he did. Sure he has disappeared since then but the point is he has made his alignment clear.
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On May 31 2012 10:38 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 09:59 Probulous wrote:
The only effort he had made has been to find an excuse not to support Wiggles. Why?
I'm actually willing to take him at his word on his reasoning. Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 22:58 Hyaach wrote:
and before you say im contradicting myself which I am. I do not just want to wagon a vote, I have as much town read on Mr Wiggles as I have on Meapak_Ziphh
You may say but if you are town you would want to elect a strong candidate into Mayor. But I feel safer voting on town read by myself on someone who doesn't run for Mayor.
I believe most who ran campaigns has an agenda.
Having not participated in an election previously, I can accept the train of thought he provided: Wiggles seems town, but Wiggles is running for mayor, therefore, better to vote for some other town read that wasn't pushing himself for mayor. I had the same thought to an extent, but figured if a mass vote-swap right before the election was normally a good idea (because some/many of the candidates could be non-town), it would gain traction on its own.
So voting for someone who will not get elected is townie? Your logic only makes sense if you are around to join in on said mass vote switch. He never changed his vote.
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@VE
Can you provide an explanation why Kita would focus on the lyncher day 1? His actions don't make sense to me but I am having trouble finding the motivation behind them.
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On May 31 2012 11:13 jaj22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 10:39 Probulous wrote:
So you think he is town because he acting like scum?
I'm saying that scum normally make some effort not to have an entire filter full of weird stuff. The town explanation for his posts seems more plausible to me. On Zealos, I agree it's possible that he's just busy. His claim is that he has a lot more free time now, so we'll see if he manages to post something that looks town before the lynch. In that case I'd probably switch to Gambit rather than Hyaach though. Cwave and phagga are lined up for modkills due to not voting on day 1, so there's not much point lynching them. What's this evidence of Hyaach's motivations?
Why would you make an effort to state that Wiggles is the best candidate and then vote for someone else?
The reason given was that Wiggles has an agenda and he would prefer voting for someone not running for mayor, which is a newb way is alright, if and only if you consolidate on a candidate. Otherwise you can vote for anyone and not be held accountable. His motivation is clear, avoid voting for Wiggles and then disappear into the night. This is scum play if Wiggles is town, which is my read.
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On May 31 2012 11:16 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 11:14 VisceraEyes wrote:
I can't tell you why Kita does what Kita does. I find it suspicious because it was not relevant to finding scum at all. Like, almost ALL of the discussion about keeping the lyncher out of office was LITERALLY USELESS to finding scum, and that doesn't seem like townie Kita.
Not to mention the fact that scum can third-party hunt in lieu of scumhunt and guess what: IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'RE CONTRIBUTING!!
Case in point: Forumite! Forumite was third-party, and all he had to do was scumhunt to win the game die. Like, he looked so townie by trying to find Zim (who obviously I'm presuming is scum) that combined with the fact that he's a vet made him a target over, say, soon-to-be-"mod-confirmed"*-town-Toad.
So you think Kita is third party?
My running theory is that Kita is mafia who wanted to divert town and discredit Toad. When that was shot down he changed tack and tried to discredit you. The problem I have is that he raised the lyncher thing first. It's like
fearmongering -> discredit Toad -> discredit VE
But that means his whole motivation for the lyncher obsession was to create confusion?
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On May 31 2012 11:21 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 11:14 VisceraEyes wrote:
I can't tell you why Kita does what Kita does. I find it suspicious because it was not relevant to finding scum at all. Like, almost ALL of the discussion about keeping the lyncher out of office was LITERALLY USELESS to finding scum, and that doesn't seem like townie Kita.
Not to mention the fact that scum can third-party hunt in lieu of scumhunt and guess what: IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'RE CONTRIBUTING!!
It was relevant because it increased the chances of keeping an anti-town player out of office. You act as if I spammed up the thread with lyncher discussion. I only mentioned it a couple of times. Electing toad was the main policy I pushed. Prob, why are you asking VE his opinion about this topic? Are you trying to fuel the flames?
Because he is here. You seemed to have disappeared.
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Ok here is my case against Kita and it isn't complete and it has holes that I can't reconcile, maybe someone else can shed some light on it
To the rest of the town who aren't around look at Kita's posts about the Lyncher knowing that the Lyncher does not know who their target is.
With a lyncher possibly in play, its extremeley likely that he has decided to run for mayor. I suggest we elect someone who has not declared their candidacy yet. (Klicky)
Big assumption which I pointed out earlier doesn't hold up. Sure Kita thought they did know their target but if that is the case surely you would want to be sure before suggesting we base the whole voting system on it. He never asks the thread of their opinions about how likely it is that a lyncher knows their target, he just assumes it and then run riot based on that assumption.
Then when Toad claims his response is not "Oh Toad is probably town but we can figure that out tomorrow" it's
Hmm, mason would be a great claim for a lyncher. Doesn't matter if he's telling the truth on day two since he's already won by then.As much as I'd like to see a town role elected, we can't automatically assume toad is town.
Sure he goes onto to support Toad as Pardoner but is absolutely convinced that
A) There is a lyncher
B) They know their target and so would run for mayor to win on the first day
C) That a mason claim makes Toad that lyncher
Then he closes down discussion on the topic with this
Lets end the discussion right now. Toad is our pardoner. It's the best of both worlds. It ensures we don't have a scum pardoner, which is the more dangerous of the two roles and it protects us from a mayor lyncher. If you're town toad, then great we denied the role. If not, then we don't really care if you would prefer mayor. (Klicky)
Which assumes that Toad is a lyncher based off of his mason claim? It is totally non-sensical and does not fit with my image of Kita as a town player.
After this VE and Kita get into a back and forth about Toad being town where Kita makes a lot of sense. I've stated earlier that Kita started off looking really bad and has since improved. I am trying to work out what motivation someone would have to be so obsessive about the possibility of lyncher and be so wrong about how it works.
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On May 31 2012 11:25 austinmcc wrote:
His motivation is clear to you because you're not fully considering poorly-thought-out play. If you're happy to vote a different candidate because everyone running might have had an agenda, then that reasoning still stands even once you need to consolidate. You're suspicious of Wiggles AND every other candidate for the same reason, so why consolidate your vote on ANY of them?
If you accept that as possible reasoning, then his motivation isn't clear any more, because he could have been acting according to his suspicion of all candidates. That's the only reasoning I've got for him not swapping his vote at the end.
But it is still i think 8 hours till day ends? Plenty of time to decide.
He never came back and never stated that he was suspicious of Wiggles. How are his actions any different from a scum trying to avoid the responsibility of choosing a mayor? If you were truly suspicious of everyone running for mayor than you would never vote in a mayor. That position only works early in the running but came deadline you need to choose one of the candidates unless you have a good reason. He did not and he didn't bother even confirming his reasoning. He stated it once and said it was subject to change but never followed up. He just left.
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On May 31 2012 11:35 kitaman27 wrote:
Your post doesn't have a conclusion prob. I assumed lynchers know their target because it would be an imbalanced role otherwise. I've never played in a game where a player's win condition is to lynch an unknown target.
That is because I haven't come up with a conclusion. I can't read you so far, so well done if you're scum. I can sort of understand your play if you truly believed that, but it seems really odd to get so focused without checking your base assumptions. It fits a scum you better than town, but since then you have been open and active.
I just want other people to contribute because right now I am drawing a blank. I still think Hyaach is a good lynch.
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On May 31 2012 11:39 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Wow this thread is dumb. I got out of my tutoring job early and am coming home now so I can sort this mess out. In the meantime everyone is going to do a little homework and reread my case on VE.
Thanks for the case Meapak, I have in fact read it and I have one question. Why?
You rightly point out that VE went after Toad preventing him from being elected as pardoner. I fail to see how that makes him scum. There was no lynch happening and Toad would be confirmed by the next day. Scum would know this and so it makes little sense to try and discredit Toad when you can't get him lynched. I mean all it does is allow someone else to get the pardoner role.
Along that line of thought, do you think ET or Wiggles are possibly VE's scumbuddy? That VE tried to shift the spotlight away from them and onto Toad so that they could get voted in easily? They have both been very quiet since the election. Your case is thorough but it fails to explain what purpose his actions serve for mafia.
In essence
VE calls for the death of a guy who will be forced to prove his claim tomorrow. There’s literally no way for toad to not produce and if he doesn’t then he’s signed his own death warrant. There is no reason to kill him and yet that’s what VE wants.
Why would he do this?
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@WBG, regardless of VE, what do you think Hyaach?
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Behold the great Manason!
He can tell who is scum by his daily bowel movements.
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On May 31 2012 12:54 wherebugsgo wrote:
That's not the problem. The problem is that you jump ship every time a new name comes along. You ask irrelevant and distracting questions (like why am I not focused on scummy MZ over here) when it's public knowledge that the primary reason MZ is not and probably never will be suspicious is because of a game mechanic (his shot claim)
@WBG, what makes you think MZ is scummy? This looks like a pretty townie post to me.
On May 30 2012 04:43 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 04:22 supersoft wrote:On May 30 2012 04:10 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
hey supersoft, do something useful and write an analysis on me and wiggles. what is this? "write an analysis" I already posted what I think about you an wiggles. Why don't you tell me what you think about wiggles? Do you think it's normal townbehaviour, to be elected to chose the lynch and not participate at the final discussion about it?And another question: Do you REALLY think I am scum?! Or do you even know I am not. I really don't care about wiggles behavior before the lynch and since you didn't bother taking any strong actions before the lynch you're just as bad as he is so stop whining. And no I don't think you're scum, unlike you I've been reading between the lines and I've picked up things. What I'm trying to do now is make sure you don't do anything stupid.
Seems odd to notice supersoft's craziness for what it was and then point it out in the thread. If he was scum, supersoft would be dead right?
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Hmm, quote mix up?
Yeah I have been reading Forumite and Supersoft's filters and this post seems to be the crux of the case against Zealos
On May 28 2012 05:52 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 02:31 Zealos wrote:On May 28 2012 01:47 Forumite wrote:On May 28 2012 01:44 Zealos wrote:
I think we're being a bit too quick to rush and attack Toad for something reasonably small. Although his entire election campaign was him showing off, the logic was at least there is some way or another. I certainly don't plan on voting for him based off of it though. Why are you defending Toades? Because that's my opinion of the game so far. It seems like everyone is ready to jump on, without really looking at rest of the game.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know scum defend townies all the time and Toad hadn't claimed at this point so there was no reason to assume he was innocent. I could get down with a Zealos lynch if my Hyaach lynch is not gaining the traction required.
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EPT
