EPTPick Your Power: Redux
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2012 20:19 syllogism wrote: I probably won't be playing but voting PYP since qatol wants to play that. Nomination mechanic is interesting, but also sounds like it could be quite frustrating. Also the description refers to "WIFOM", which is another strike against it. ##vote PYP Awww. Thank you!  | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
Also,  no lynch-surviving veteran. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2012 01:41 GMarshal wrote: If you ask for the list, you must save someone that night. So this applies even if you think only mafia members will be dying (you think the mafia's night kill has been blocked)? (Assuming witch is town, of course.) If this is true, could you please change the role description to say: "You must give one of them a life-saving potion that will prevent them from dying."? | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2012 05:45 talismania wrote: Very true, toad. are pregame announcements allowed? If so I'll totally announce what my number picks would be because I will pick the same regardless of alignment. Please don't. I don't want to get into metagaming too much before the game starts, but for now, please don't. Edit: This is directed at you too, Toadesstern. You guys are having discussions we should be talking about once the game has started, not now when nobody will doubt your motives. On May 09 2012 06:32 Radfield wrote: I'd like to coach this game GM. I won't have time to play, but I'd like to follow along. I've played in 4 PYP games, and I think I excel at this format and have good advice to give players who are new to the format. Pretty please, be my coach? (I'm not entirely joking - it has been a long time since I've played.) | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 10 2012 08:03 wherebugsgo wrote: why would 6 : 9 and 6:20 be placed ahead of 1:1? If the first number is the same then they're put to the back and the second number is counted. What's the purpose of the second number then? Like, 6 : 9 should be second, 6:20 should be third, and 7:4 should be fourth. Then comes 1:1, 7:1, and 7:2 last. Agreed. It makes no sense that a selection that double clashes is placed above a selection that single clashes. Otherwise, the second number holds no meaning except as a tiebreaker between people with the same first number. Edit: To be clear, I think the numbers should be arranged as follows: [19,19] [6,9] [6,20] [7,1] [7,4] [1,1] [1,1] [7,2] [7,2] First you have numbers where the first number doesn't clash. Then you have numbers with a clash of the first number, ordered first by number of players clashing and then numerically by first number. Next you have the numbers which clash on both numbers, ordered first by number of players clashing and then numerically by first number. That seems to be the way that makes the most sense and makes both numbers meaningful. If you think some other way makes more sense, that's fine (just please explain it one more time - I'm still confused from your example earlier). | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 10 2012 09:45 Ace wrote: I love this part of the game. You're just happy it's GMarshal I'm debating this with and not you any more. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 10 2012 13:02 Ace wrote: Wasn't this the way I did it in the original PYP? Meh I think as long as people realize picking a unique first number is the real way to "win" the point gets across. But what if everyone clashes? Suddenly all of this becomes important!  | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2012 17:39 Ace wrote: If there is an SK I'm rooting for him/her to win. EDIT: My last post in this thread, didn't realize game is starting. Game isn't starting until Monday! Feel free to provide commentary until then! | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 12 2012 12:47 GMarshal wrote: Its a completely idiotic play, but I don't see why not, I mean I allow self voting. Can the SK choose not to stab? How about stabbing himself? Would he die? | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 13 2012 02:11 GMarshal wrote: Sure, sure, no (bulletproof, unless he was role blocked) Just making sure bulletproof also applies to stabbing. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:31 Qatol wrote: First things first: do NOT post your number selections. If you have posted them, consider changing it. I'm making another post to explain why. Okay, let me explain. It plays into the mafia's hands to tell everyone what you will be picking. It is in the town's best interests to have as many clashes as possible. Townies informing the thread of their selections helps the mafia control where they will be picking. Because role assignment for the first few spots is generally forced (and it seems likely this will be the case again), the mafia are able to grab the "assigned" roles they actually want by picking at the assigned spot or earlier. You might argue that the town should kill them for deviating from the role assignments, but this has been an ineffective deterrant in previous games (the town tends to get sidetracked and townies tend to be just as likely to deviate from these plans as mafia/SK are). Furthermore, it allows the mafia to stay out of the "assigned" roles they do not wish to have - this is also bad for the town because we want the mafia stuck with no role or with a role they cannot use effectively without becoming suspicious. Instead, the town would much prefer the number selections to be as random as possible. An ideal situation for the town would be for everyone to select the exact same numbers - that way the mafia have literally no control over where they will be picking. In such a situation, unless they get very lucky, they will have to adjust their gameplan and potentially the roles they aim for because of the clashing. They may wind up with a far weaker slate of roles (or even missing on a few picks entirely) and this should be the goal of the town during the number selection and drafting phases. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
First of all, we need to consider the town's goals (in order of importance): 1. Prevent the Mafia and Serial Killer from killing townies quickly 2. Organize and minimize distractions 3. Prevent the Mafia and Serial Killer from grabbing roles which help them 4. Maximize the number of town blues Remember, the game is a marathon for the town, but a race for the Mafia and Serial Killer. They want the town whittled down as quickly as possible before the town gets a chance to organize and effectively hunt them down. With this in mind, there is one very important thing to remember when looking at the setup: The mafia only have 1 KP! As such, it means that controlling the KP has got to be a focus in this game. If the town remains focused and minimizes dead townies at night, it will win. Moreover, there is exactly 1 role with perpetual KP: CPR Doctor. Therefore, we have to deny CPR Doctor. I realize that it isn't possible to deny this role completely, but we have to make it dangerous for the mafia/SK to consider selecting this role. Furthermore, after CPR Doctor has been selected, I propose that the role is not used, at least not early. Do not consider it a double lynch. That was the mistake we made in PYP1. It is simply a fact that the town gains information as the game goes along and a large town later in the game is at a huge advantage. Uninformed shots are an easy way to lose the game quickly because you wind up shooting misguided townies. We can figure out whether or not it is being used based upon the number of people dying at night (Mafia get 1 kill, SK gets 1 kill, Vigi, Angry Vigi, CPR, and JOAT are the only roles with night kills). On May 15 2012 02:08 sandroba wrote: I disagree completely with this attitude, at least this early in the game, because I'm relatively sure 2 of your first 3 shots will be innocents, and that's not a trade I want to make. (I'm not saying anything about your scumhunting abilities in particular, just noting that most vigi hits hit townies, especially early in the game when the ratios are higher.)I would totally pick cpr. Give me kp and I'll give you dead scum. On May 15 2012 03:35 sandroba wrote: Town does not want CPR Doctor to be used early. CPR Doctor is not a good pick for use as town.You guys are missing the point. The point is to deny roles that should never be used as town and are very good picks as mafia. CPR or a couple others mentioned are going to be used and wanted as both alignments. So it doesn't really makes sense to deny them. Beyond CPR, only 1 other role is so dangerous it justifies being assigned based upon drafting order: the Janitor. The ability to take away the flip information is far too strong of an ability to give to the Mafia. It greatly impairs the town's ability to organize and analyze based upon interactions between players in the thread. While roles like JOAT and Roleblocker are certainly powerful roles, neither of them has the ability to be anywhere near as game-alteringly powerful as CPR and Janitor. Godfather is not that strong at all. Sure it avoids alignment checks. So what? Framer is far more dangerous due to its flexibility to target other players. Heck, Bullet Bill and Role Cop can still find the Godfather! The KP ability of the Godfather only triggers when he is being lynched, and a 1:1 trade of a townie for a mafia member is pretty much always worth the exchange. There are definitely more dangerous roles out there. I'm not worried about the mafia using the copycat to copy CPR doctor either, because if they want to do such a thing, they need to figure out a way to stop the day 1 lynch or kill the CPR doc before the day 1 lynch (so they have to use Day Vigi or Pardoner). If they use Day Vigi, then they just donated a mafia member to have CPR doctor. We can live with that. And if they use Pardoner, they probably use up his ability on a townie and they still might not get the right role copied thanks to medics and the order GMarshal resolves the kills. Beyond those two roles, I think players should choose whichever role they want/feel comfortable using/ want to make sure the mafia don't get, including CPR or Janitor. If you're so worried that the mafia will let the role slide down to a lower slot, use your pick on the role and prevent it. At least the threat of such a thing happening should make the mafia think twice about doing something like that. While it is obviously quite strong for the town to get a lot of roles, you don't want to do so at the expense of giving the mafia/SK the flexibility of getting the roles they want (especially with low picks) or telling the mafia/SK who has what role. 15 vanilla townies vs. 4 vanilla scum vs. 1 vanilla SK is also very town-favored if the mafia only have 1 KP. One thing to consider though is the protection roles: On May 15 2012 02:48 Barundar wrote: I disagree with this sentiment. Protection roles are every bit as valuable as information or killing roles. You shouldn't only be looking to take medic/jailkeeper if you are low on the list. If you are higher on the list and feel comfortable with the role, or you are worried that the role will not be picked/ the role will be sniped early, grab it higher up! Having those roles in the game is very important for continuing to slow down the night killing. They are not low-tier roles.While I agree we need to randomize our powerroles, PYP:I was also super easy because we maxed out blue roles. Without being too specific to avoid snipes, if you end up lowish in the list please pickup heroes like medics and be a hero, even if it's not a superman you can still win the game for us. Don't be afraid to pick up stuff like role cop either, you can tell a lot from peoples alignment through their roles, in the PYP's I have played mafia has never been afraid to pick mafia power roles. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:03 GMarshal wrote: Mafia (Alignment) KP SK (Alignment) KP Angry Vigilante Vigilante Jack CPR Doctor Okay the Copy Cat can be controlled (barring a dayvig shot/trade). We would have to threaten a protection on the CPR picker night 1 if the lynch doesn't happen (though I still want to see a lynch happen). Angry Vigi shoots after SK, so SK would determine the Copy Cat's role if there's a medic protection. The Copy Cat is not so important that it needs to be assigned. There are definitely stronger selections out there for the mafia. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:07 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Agreed. Personally I'm really comfortable playing as Doc, and if I'm not one of the top five (haven't played a power role in forever so I'm interested in those as well) I might snatch that or jailkeeper up. While this is great, don't announce something like this. Keep the mafia guessing about which role you will be picking. You don't need us to validate your pick. (Though if anyone picks Tracker, I will criticize you in the postgame - it's an awful role in this format.) On May 15 2012 05:10 hiro protagonist wrote: I agree that aside from CPR doc, the janitor is towns worst nightmare. We MUST assign it. The others for assignment is CPR doc and RBer, because of the synergy that town can harnise between these roles. so that has us at something like: 1. CPR 2. Janitor 3. RB I also 100% agree with everything Qatol has said. this is a marathon for town. We should focus less on KP roles, and use old fashon analysis to kill scum. A combination of defensive roles along with DT type roles would serve us best, not that the odd vig is a bad idea though. I disagree with a few things here. First of all, I didn't say we should focus less on KP roles. I just said that we shouldn't put a huge emphasis on grabbing them. I'm sure the mafia are thinking very hard about grabbing Vigiliante for its 2 night kills, for example, so townies should consider grabbing it first. Remember, each vanilla goon/SK is a gigantic win for the town. That being said, the defensive roles and investigative roles will play a more active part in helping the town win (rather than the passive role of defensively picking roles such as Vigilante). Second of all, I don't think Roleblocker is so important that it must be assigned. I think the uncertainty of the mafia not knowing the location of the role is more valuable. In fact, it might actually be better to use the Jailkeeper on the CPR doctor anyways (because that protects him from dying + still prevents the shot). | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:42 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: And I'm Liane the Evil Bunny. Your drawing skills will not serve you well mortal. Only the holy hand grenade is capable of wounding me. Come on guys. Stop spamming the thread. It makes more for us to read for absolutely no reason. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:50 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Lol what were we talking about before the spam and Palmar showing up? Anyweiz, I'm wondering how good a doctor/jailkeeper would be for mafia. Seems like a really interesting concept, at least for blocking SK's shots. And JK would have a field day with all the blues. It's good for them, just like taking Vigilante or JOAT is good for the town. The denial value is relatively high. That being said, the roles still have the potential to slow the game down (by blocking SK shots), so I'm okay with the mafia using picks on them. Plus it means that they aren't taking roles to speed the game up, which we like. On top of that, there is a decent risk that a townie will take the role because of their value, so picking one of them is a gamble for the mafia. Obviously Jailkeeper is better for them than Doctor is because it can be used as a roleblocker, but people can take that into account when making their role selections. I'm not too worried about them using the roles to block night hits. | ||
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