EPT
.Wheel of Fortune Mini Mafia - Page 7
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
. | ||
|
MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
Why would you have said two conflicting ideas? | ||
|
strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
No but actually, I think we've got plenty of time for the last two people to post before we start worrying about policy lynching one of them. I'm also trying to fully understand the mason plan in all it's configurations. The first thing I see is that if there are no real masons, then a pair of scum fake claiming would be really powerful. The way we get around that is by having a dt check on one of the mason claimers, so the plan overall basically just turns a normal dt check into a double dt check. This would be helpful to town. However, there could also be real masons and no dt. In that case, the scum could fake claim dt; when we lynch one of the masons and they come up town, we don't learn much because there could be a framer, and he would have almost certainly chosen one of the masons. Alternatively, scum could fake claim dt and confirm the masons, then start confirming the other scum (with some real townies in the mix as well.) If scum have a framer, then it seems like their move would be to target one of the masons for a kill and the other for a frame up. That way, they certainly either get a kill or on one of the masons, or else the town won't get a dt check on the mason pair. (If the mason targeted for the kill is jailed, then they survive but can't be dt checked. Therefore the dt either gets no result, or gets a framed result.) Preview edit: actually, when I reread the OP, it looks like jailing someone may not block dt checks ion them, going by the in-flavor description. Does "Gregory House's safety net" (jailkeeper power) also block actions targeted on the subject other than "being booted off the show" (getting killed)? I expect that the answer to this will be "yes" since that's how I think jail keeper normally works. If the answer is "no" I will post an update. Anyway, my current feeling is that the masons should not claim super early. Since there's no doctors, the mafia could go for either the fake dt claim response or the kill/frame combo, significantly reducing the advantage we get. There's one other thing I was thinking of. Since we don't know whether or not there are masons in the game, what's to stop two townies from fakeclaiming masons? One VT would claim mason and choose their best townread, claiming them as the other mason. The other person would go along with it, assuming they also think the first one is town. In theory, this could give us the benefit of having masons even in a scenario where we don't have masons. However, if a townie chose a scum, it would be really bad for town, so this sort of bets the whole game on one read. I'm not comfortable doing that. Additionally, this would let the town act as though those two are confirmed town as long ad they're both alive, but as soon as one is killed and flips VT, the other one isn't confirmed anymore and it goes back to reads. This could be helpful, but I don't think the risk is worth the reward so I don't think anyone should do it. HOWEVER: I also think there's a foolproof way for the masons to breadcrumb each other without putting each other at risk. Everyone should post a string of characters. For everyone who's not a mason, those characters wil be random. However the masons will share a one-time pad, and will encrypt each other's names, repeating through the string of characters. Then when one of the masons dies, the other one can reveal the one time pad which converts their string into the other mason's name and vice versa. Clearly a one time pad can be chosen to convert any string into any other string, but the odds that this will work both ways without having been constructed are astronomically small. I suggest we use at least sixteen characters. Thus, if my mason partner was to encrypt my name, then the decripted string would be STRONGANDBIGSTRO. Since scum won't have the one time pad, there's no way for them to figure out who the masons are as long as everyone posts a string. I see no way this could go against town, but I won't post such a string yet so that people can tell me why I'm wrong, if I am. Finally, I have a question for MrZentor. Ace is in this game; why did you change your trolling method from last game and not call for people to lynch him again? Another preview edit: ace posted the point about the SK KP potentially messing up the town; this does seem like it decreases the odds of masons surviving to help the town, which makes me even more hesitant to support a quick claim. | ||
|
strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
You randomly generate a string of characters, which you both have. This is your one-time pad. You each take your decrypted ("plaintext") string, and add each letter to the letter in the same position in the one time pad. This gives your encrypted string. (by adding letters I mean incrementing by the position in the alphabet. You can convert each letter to a number, 1-26, and add the numbers, going back to 1 when you would go past 26.) The messages can then be decrypted by anyone who knows the one time pad, by subtracting each letter of the pad from the corresponding letter of the message. However, without the pad the messages cannot be decrypted. Therefore you post the encrypted messages before anyone dies, and then when the other mason dies you reveal the pad, which changes their string into your name and your string into their name. | ||
|
Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
First of all, strongandbig's posts are big and mostly useless. Specifically, this encrypted message stuff that takes up a large portion of his posts. Anyone can hide something in their post, we don't need you padding your filter and clogging the thread with that sort of stuff. Last time you started a game like that (SS Mafia) you were scum. Are you scum this game too? MrZentor, you're abrasiveness and dismissal of people's questions, while not necessarily (or likely) mafia behaviour doesn't really help the town. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would appreciate a more respectful player than the one who needs to call everyone "illiterate, boring, dull, stupid, or thick" just to make a point. I'd say it actually lessens the strength of your cases when you resort to ad hominem attacks. As for the other things that have been talked about: -Hydra should sign their posts -Masons should claim if they feel like it will benefit town -Town reads are not necessarily only negative (though admittedly they are not as important as scum reads) | ||
|
Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 23 2012 02:25 MrZentor wrote: Ace, S. Jackson is saying we should have masons claim ASAP, and I am saying we should wait a day or two. Why would you have said two conflicting ideas? I didn't. I said both of your posts were saying what I would, then went on to clarify. I explicitly stated I'm for Masons claiming Day 2. strongandbig: That is really a lot of what ifs you're going through there. I do agree that a framer would mess things up - if we were trying to confirm the Masons. It's more likely that 2 players claiming Masons are Town. If neither one of them died for 2 days I'm sure we'd know whats up. You don't really need the Cop to investigate them. | ||
|
strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 03:11 Snarfs wrote: Couple of things to comment on in the beginning. First of all, strongandbig's posts are big and mostly useless. Specifically, this encrypted message stuff that takes up a large portion of his posts. Anyone can hide something in their post, we don't need you padding your filter and clogging the thread with that sort of stuff. Last time you started a game like that (SS Mafia) you were scum. Are you scum this game too? MrZentor, you're abrasiveness and dismissal of people's questions, while not necessarily (or likely) mafia behaviour doesn't really help the town. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would appreciate a more respectful player than the one who needs to call everyone "illiterate, boring, dull, stupid, or thick" just to make a point. I'd say it actually lessens the strength of your cases when you resort to ad hominem attacks. As for the other things that have been talked about: -Hydra should sign their posts -Masons should claim if they feel like it will benefit town -Town reads are not necessarily only negative (though admittedly they are not as important as scum reads) I get the feeling you didn't really read my posts. Sorry they were so long. I had a lot of scenarios to work through on the "early mason claim" question, and I People have previously been talking about how the masons should "leave clues" in their posts to who their partner is, but that their clues would have to be careful so as not to alert the mafia. I'm saying that I've got a foolproof way for the surviving mason to confirm themselves if the first mason gets killed, but that it requires cooperation. It's not at all the same as "anyone hiding something in their posts." It only really covers up the masons if everyone posts. Scum would naturally be against a scheme like this, in my opinion. Since I can't see any way it can possibly hurt town, I think we should do it, even if the benefit ends up being small. | ||
|
SamuelLJackson
223 Posts
On April 23 2012 03:26 Ace wrote: I didn't. I said both of your posts were saying what I would, then went on to clarify. I explicitly stated I'm for Masons claiming Day 2. strongandbig: That is really a lot of what ifs you're going through there. I do agree that a framer would mess things up - if we were trying to confirm the Masons. It's more likely that 2 players claiming Masons are Town. If neither one of them died for 2 days I'm sure we'd know whats up. You don't really need the Cop to investigate them. I'm back \o/ And yeah exactly that. Claiming mason is INCREDIBLE risky for mafia, they'd insta-lose 2 (!) players in a mini game if something goes wrong. That's straight up gg if something happens. Yeah, us talking about how unlikely it is for mafia to claim mason probably makes it a little more tempting for mafia to actually do that but I'd say I'm perfectly happy with mafia giving us 2 free kills even if they are delayed. And I hope noone has to talk about why two VTs fakeclaiming mason shouldn't be an issue at all or a mafia fakeclaiming mason with a townie. If someone ends up fakeclaiming mason as a VT or saying "yeah that guy is mason with me" when he really is not I will punch them in the face. And that's an euphemism for "vote and push your lynch" so no worries there! That's kind of the reason I don't want masons to claim later because if we're 2 days into the game, they claim and get another 2 days on top of that because we're not sure if it's a mafia or a town I'd say that could very well end up being to late. So if someone claims mason something like d3 I am going to completly ignore that. If they claim d1 however they're a high priority target for mafia and mafia can't realy do that themselves d1 because of what I just said. D3 gets tricky because if we only start thinking about lynching one of the masons by d5 mafia might be willing to claim that. That being said. What about talking about something else? Feels like we're wasting d1 just because there MIGHT BE a pair of masons like in the last game which was a complete demolition for mafia the moment the mason claimed d1 and therefore I'd say it's not that unlikely that WBG tweaked the balance a little bit. I still got a very bad feeling about VE. Yeah I know, I have that feeling every game but I still don't understand why town-VE should do what he did earlier on and he's quite silent right now. Town-VE is the kind of guy who is VERY confident about his own skills because of his most recent results in the last dozen of games and because a lot of people said he played very well recently. So I think Town-VE would be in this thread telling people what to do, trying to lead town even with a stacked playerfield like we have. Just look at the first C9++ for example. That oviously makes me think VE is not town this game. Thoughts? ---Toad | ||
|
strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Also I'm not actually sorry they were so long, fuck that. | ||
|
Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On April 23 2012 03:28 strongandbig wrote: Scum would naturally be against a scheme like this, in my opinion. Since I can't see any way it can possibly hurt town, I think we should do it, even if the benefit ends up being small. Why do you make a situation to help identify scum, then tell scum how to blend in? Since we´re still talking Masons, I don´t think there´s a rush in claiming. If they claim then scum have more time to pick them off. As long as they claim well before getting lynched then there´s no reason not to wait a few days. To emphasize that, if you are a mason about to be lynched, then don´t wait with claiming. I don´t want to ever see a voteswitch the last 10 minutes, or even the last 30 minutes. If you are too late then we might as well lynch you to confirm your partner. | ||
|
MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
On April 23 2012 03:11 Snarfs wrote: Couple of things to comment on in the beginning. First of all, strongandbig's posts are big and mostly useless. Specifically, this encrypted message stuff that takes up a large portion of his posts. Anyone can hide something in their post, we don't need you padding your filter and clogging the thread with that sort of stuff. Last time you started a game like that (SS Mafia) you were scum. Are you scum this game too? MrZentor, you're abrasiveness and dismissal of people's questions, while not necessarily (or likely) mafia behaviour doesn't really help the town. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would appreciate a more respectful player than the one who needs to call everyone "illiterate, boring, dull, stupid, or thick" just to make a point. I'd say it actually lessens the strength of your cases when you resort to ad hominem attacks. As for the other things that have been talked about: -Hydra should sign their posts -Masons should claim if they feel like it will benefit town -Town reads are not necessarily only negative (though admittedly they are not as important as scum reads) 1. I've only insulted Forumite and Prphlzl, and I am quite certain they aren't everyone. 2. What's wrong with being candid? I like strongandbig's plan. fhtwxiaodwqppdcwfwk | ||
|
Ace
United States16096 Posts
As for your encryption plan that makes sense S&B but Samuel brings up a good point: They aren't guaranteed to be in the game. Let's not make ourselves do extra work that probably won't pay off. For now the fact that anyone even lazily reading the thread knows that a Mason claim is very likely by Day 2 is good enough. | ||
|
SamuelLJackson
223 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:33 Ace wrote: Well I didn't read wbg's last game, but s&b has a point Forumite. I've said it many times in the past that a pair of Masons are the most dangerous roles that a Scum team has to deal with in most games. He also alluded to Masons fast claiming Day 1 in the last game and wrecking shit. I'd be suspicious of any player that doesn't even want to talk about going this route also. As for your encryption plan that makes sense S&B but Samuel brings up a good point: They aren't guaranteed to be in the game. Let's not make ourselves do extra work that probably won't pay off. For now the fact that anyone even lazily reading the thread knows that a Mason claim is very likely by Day 2 is good enough. So, you want us to discuss the mason thing but you're not willing to do something like generate a random 16-char-long string because the chances that there are no masons are to high and therefore it's not worth doing to do something that's SO much work? That sounds a little bit weird, doesn't it? Why do we need to talk about the mason thing in the first place if that's what you think? --- Toad | ||
|
Ace
United States16096 Posts
| ||
|
SamuelLJackson
223 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:46 Ace wrote: Why would we be generating encrypted strings when both Masons can just claim Day 2? We're doing extra work for nothing. If they aren't in the game then we just move on. If I understood correctly what strongandbig said he is pretty much against masons claiming at all. He doesn't want masons to claim unless the other counterpart of their mason role is dead, therefore giving us less advantages but also less risks because it's only one confirmed townie but it's just impossible for the 2nd guy to be mafia when the first one already flipped town AND mason. My point is that it's not impossible for both masons to be mafia if they claim before one of them dies but it is REALLY unlikely, therefore I don't think we need to be that cautious and I'd like them to claim before one of them dies if we have masons because that doubles the advantages and with every passing day it's more likely for mafia to claim mason because they might think "well it's already d3, if we don't win by d7 [we need 1 or 2 days according to you to judge wether it's mafia or not and 2 more days to get them lynched] we already lost, so whatever let's claim mason". That being said I really don't think there's masons in here because of what I said earlier and would rather talk about scumreads instead. No responses about what I said about VE? | ||
|
Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:33 Ace wrote: Well I didn't read wbg's last game, but s&b has a point Forumite. I've said it many times in the past that a pair of Masons are the most dangerous roles that a Scum team has to deal with in most games. He also alluded to Masons fast claiming Day 1 in the last game and wrecking shit. I'd be suspicious of any player that doesn't even want to talk about going this route also. As for your encryption plan that makes sense S&B but Samuel brings up a good point: They aren't guaranteed to be in the game. Let's not make ourselves do extra work that probably won't pay off. For now the fact that anyone even lazily reading the thread knows that a Mason claim is very likely by Day 2 is good enough. I don´t have the same experience with masons as you. In the games I´ve played, confirmed townies die soon after getting confirmed. In that light, it might be better to wait until day 3 to claim, and breadcrumb in a foolproof way so that if one mason die before the claim, the other one can confirm himself. During D3, when there are fewer people alive, one confirmed makes a much bigger difference. | ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
| ||
|
Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:58 SamuelLJackson wrote: If I understood correctly what strongandbig said he is pretty much against masons claiming at all. He doesn't want masons to claim unless the other counterpart of their mason role is dead, therefore giving us less advantages but also less risks because it's only one confirmed townie but it's just impossible for the 2nd guy to be mafia when the first one already flipped town AND mason. My point is that it's not impossible for both masons to be mafia if they claim before one of them dies but it is REALLY unlikely, therefore I don't think we need to be that cautious and I'd like them to claim before one of them dies if we have masons because that doubles the advantages and with every passing day it's more likely for mafia to claim mason because they might think "well it's already d3, if we don't win by d7 [we need 1 or 2 days according to you to judge wether it's mafia or not and 2 more days to get them lynched] we already lost, so whatever let's claim mason". That being said I really don't think there's masons in here because of what I said earlier and would rather talk about scumreads instead. No responses about what I said about VE? I thought I already addressed the bolded: If both Masons claim the only risk is a potential SK trying to shoot the Masons the same night as Scum. They only have 1 KP. Having 2 confirmed Townies on Day 2 to drop the pool of suspects to 11 is a pretty big deal. Claiming before your partner is dead is very strong. The bolded is in line with what I'm trying to articulate here. Ok @ Forumite but 2 confirmed makes an even bigger difference | ||
|
SamuelLJackson
223 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:59 Forumite wrote: I don´t have the same experience with masons as you. In the games I´ve played, confirmed townies die soon after getting confirmed. In that light, it might be better to wait until day 3 to claim, and breadcrumb in a foolproof way so that if one mason die before the claim, the other one can confirm himself. During D3, when there are fewer people alive, one confirmed makes a much bigger difference. the thing is that it's 2 confirmed townies. On top of that there might be some guy or some guys who are looking really townish themselves that mafia have to deal with. On top of that there are probably a bunch of townies that mafia wants to get rid of, just look at the playerlist. That's an enormous list of "problems" for mafia, way more than they can deal with. I'd say it's either claim early (d1, I'd be fine with d2 as well) or don't claim at all. As Ace pointed out, without a cop and even with a cop we have issues figuring them out because they're most likely to be framed if mafia has a framer and that's not an unreasonable assumption in a DT-setup at all. So our way to figure out masons is to look at them, probably give them the benefit of the doubt and figure out what's going on with them. As you mentioned, mafia wants to hit that and if they're still alive 2 days after the claim (especially if it's a late claim) it's probably a mafia fakeclaim. So if we have someone claim mason d3 we're screwed big time as town. --- Toad | ||
|
strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 04:24 Forumite wrote: strongandbig, your posts are long, not so long that I didn´t read them, but you could put some effort into putting everything on a subject together in one paragraf, instead of having lone lines here and there. Why do you make a situation to help identify scum, then tell scum how to blend in? Since we´re still talking Masons, I don´t think there´s a rush in claiming. If they claim then scum have more time to pick them off. As long as they claim well before getting lynched then there´s no reason not to wait a few days. To emphasize that, if you are a mason about to be lynched, then don´t wait with claiming. I don´t want to ever see a voteswitch the last 10 minutes, or even the last 30 minutes. If you are too late then we might as well lynch you to confirm your partner. I usually operate under the assumption that unless something's a deliberate and crafty trap, scum will figure out what the scummy reaction is as long as they take some time to discuss things over in their QT and think through the ramifications. This was not a deliberate trap, so I think that only hasty scum reactions are likely to get caught by it. I'm also very softly pointing a bit of suspicion at snarfs, and to a lesser extent Ace. I also usually think even unnecessary paragraph breaks make for easier reading, but I could be wrong about that one. On April 23 2012 05:58 SamuelLJackson wrote: If I understood correctly what strongandbig said he is pretty much against masons claiming at all. He doesn't want masons to claim unless the other counterpart of their mason role is dead, therefore giving us less advantages but also less risks because it's only one confirmed townie but it's just impossible for the 2nd guy to be mafia when the first one already flipped town AND mason. If we are willing to work on the assumption that neither scum nor VTs will ever claim masons, because it's too risky for scum and too stupid for VTs, then the best move for the masons is probably indeed to claim day 2. FWIW, I definitely think masons shouldn't claim day1 for sure, but I'm pretty much okay with a day2 claim if we think the scum won't take the bigass gamble on claiming mason and linking themselves together. It's only when we start to think that's possible that the situation gets very much more complicated. I guess we could just rely on the "policy lynch a mason if both of them survive more than two nights" or whatever it is you guys are saying, as a counter to the potential of scum fake claiming masons. However two days of behaving as if two scum are confirmed townies seems like a pretty tough hit for the town to take. Anyway, if there are masons in the game, then there's still at least a 1/10 chance they die night 1, and there could also be an SK. airncdkurhtigyeb | ||
| ||
