EPTNewbie Mini Mafia VIII
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Let's not waste pointless discussion on useless stuff. The worst thing a town can have is inactivity(it's one of the reasons we lost in Newbie V), I'm making it a priority to push anyone who's lurking, a lurking town is as bad as a scum. Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that. Proposing bad plays like a rng lynch is also pretty anti-town. You should always have a reason to lynch, if anything else it should be the person with the lowest productive posts by the end of voting. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 12 2012 08:42 KharadBanar wrote: EBWOP: Notice how both the openings I explained ended up in the guy doing it (a townie) getting lynched. When start discussion with something like this, we're gonna have to do it right. Aperture Mafia had us lynching Drazerk D1 who was 3rd party, not a town. Yes it wasted discussion for D1, but in the end it was still worth it for town to get rid of him and obtain more information from his role PM. Don't equate the two, Aperture was by far way more complex than any Newbie game and can hardly be used as a constructive example for either town or scum behavior (read Greymist's blogs if you're wondering on how the game went down) If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:16 Dittert wrote: Not RNG lynch... RNG proposed lynch. I was trying to gauge people's reactions to things. If we RNG and hit scum, surely at least 2 people will jump up to defend that person or risk losing one of their own. If no one really cares about killing that person, they're probably town. You're insinuating that Mafia would be willing to openly defend one of their members from a laughable RNG proposed lynch? This is WIFOM for what scum would do, don't dwell on this line of thinking. Why would they even bother risking the attention? This is not helping town, keep going and I'll make you my Day1 vote. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I've played in Newbie V and almost won as town, but we had a lot of people drop out and get modkilled due to inactivity, and we let a scum slide for 2 days because we couldn't get our act together and vote him. I've learned a lot from the feedback I got and I'm going to be more active and assertive this game, so don't be an inactive town or I will push you. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:29 KharadBanar wrote: @vonKlaust: I claimed that I was pressure voting simply because I saw what happened to Kohbee in VI: He didn't properly claim it, people got confused and the chaos happened because they mistook him for scum. As to whether it's a bit early for pressure voting: I can take the vote off HiroPro pretty easily later on, but the exact timing when I exert/take off the pressure doesn't matter as much (I think, please correct me about this if I'm wrong). You kind of made a mistake by announcing the reason you were pushing him was to evoke a response. The timing does matter, if you put it on him this early what is he going to be able to claim to defend himself with? He's obviously going to say "I'm town, don't vote me", which cannot be verified at this point. If you pressure later on in the game and start using his own responses against him, that's stronger pressure and can lead to scumslipping and the inconsistencies of a true scum player. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 12 2012 15:57 Xatalos wrote: /confirm I strongly disagree with people saying this discussion has been "idle chat" or "pointless discussion". There's only so much you can do 7 hours into the game, but what I've got from these posts has been VERY useful: in fact, after reading all the posts in one go, I'm already ready to cast a vote (not just a fake pressure like KharadBanar). The person I want to lynch the most right now is: ArcticFox. Here is what I got from his filter so far: On the surface this looks like friendly advice to fellow townies, but this is EXACTLY the kind of posting I did on A Game of Thrones Mafia as a Mafia Framer. His attitude seems like he wants to appear useful, but he doesn't really say anything useful - the opposite of actual townies who want to be useful, but don't care as much about their appearance. The overall feel I get from this post is "please don't lynch me, I'm being useful!" First of all: why discuss about blue roles at all? This is the same mistake I did in A Game of Thrones Mafia - we kept talking about blue roles in the Mafia chat, so subconsciously I mentioned possibilities about the blue roles even in the normal thread. And what do you mean with "idle chat is not good"? So far this "idle chat" has been very useful (certainly much more useful than silence or the trolling/flaming we had in A Game of Thrones Mafia...). Also, you keep mentioning policies, which is something Mafia loves to do - you can appear somewhat useful without actually contributing anything. There he goes again, talking about blue roles. It's too bad it probably ends now after I mention this, but I would have wanted to see how many times he can talk about blue roles / blue reads during the game, since this is the second time already in only 7 hours... And if you think Dittert is Mafia, why not vote for him or even put any real pressure on him? It looks like you just want to fake pressure an obvious target (a suspiciously acting townie) or put some distance between yourself and a fellow Mafia (if he gets lynched, you can claim you "pushed for his lynch" all along). You look like you want to make a policy lynch, since you keep talking about policies, but still try to appear as if you "want" to lynch a Mafia player (if something too obvious comes along and you have to bus your teammate). I got a pretty solid Mafia read already in just a matter of hours, so this discussion is definitely not "useless"... ##Vote: ArcticFox Other people I'm going to keep a close watch on: Dittert, yomi. Neither have contributed to the thread, but still tried to appear "active" enough to avoid being lynched. yomi even had a strange OMGUS reaction to BroodKingEXE after being suspected, without ANYTHING to back up his counter-suspicion. Also, this: Exactly the same kind of tactic I employed in A Game of Thrones Mafia... You want to apologize for your mistakes and noobish play (why would a townie ever need the urge to make a public apology?!) to make people think of you as a noob townie. I can feel the fear and hesitation pouring from this post. I would also want to hear your opinion, Acrofales. You were VERY active and talkative in A Game of Thrones Mafia, but so far you have been inactive. What do you think about my case on ArcticFox? Do you have your own Mafia reads that I might have missed? Terrible case on Arcticfox. You're willing to lynch someone 7 hours into the game based on your experiences of how you played Mafia in the GoT game? I looked through your filter, even you stated yourself that it felt too easy as Mafia to hide because you never drew attention to yourself. I also recognize that Acrofales was your scum buddy that game and your Mafia plan was to rely on his "noobiness" to let him get away with his opening post (but it almost got him lynched) Your entire reasoning behind attacking him was that he mentioned blue roles a few times and he was in favor of policy lynches, something that you said you did "as Mafia." So basically if someone said something that you would do, you would assume that is suspicious even though you mostly coasted in GoT, you didn't lead the town towards a mis-lynch or towards wrong lines of thinking. Don't project your experience from GoT in here with that little reasoning, you're creating a bandwagon and getting everyone to agree with you based on terrible logic. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 12 2012 17:14 Xatalos wrote: Nevertheless, you were THINKING about blue tells as you considered lynching lurkers = possibly killing blues. It's not a reason enough to lynch you yet, but if I had to choose between you or anyone else outside of ArcticFox, Dittert and yomi, I would choose to vote for you. And you seem to forget that blue players very rarely are lurkers: mostly they try to act like vanilla townies and be at least somewhat active. Being a lurker or semi-lurker means a higher chance of Mafia, since it's against Mafia's win condition to contribute. Besides, I found your hesitation and wishy-washiness more condemning than your comment about lurkers = blues. On April 12 2012 19:03 Xatalos wrote: Hmm, good answer. Your suspiciousness dropped a bit in my eyes. I want to see ArcticFox, Dittert, yomi and KharadBanar respond yet. You had suspicions in allinson, and then when he blindly followed your bandwagon you're okay with it and it drops your suspicion? I've played town every single time I've played mafia and it's always the bandwagoners that are suspicious. So quick to support you and you return the favor? No. Not this early, not without any credibilty earned. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). 1. I was sleeping. 2. If I claim to be a blue role ("thus lying") and take a shot meant for a blue role, is that lying considered bad for town? I said don't dwell on liars both for referring to the policy, and dwelling on people talking about lying, which is completely pointless. If you claim VT because that will be the most common role but you're really mafia, how am I supposed to prove that you're lying? Oh right, I can't because I'm not scum. Therefore we must deal with the lies because it's part of the game. 3. No, town willing to kill other town is fine as long as you can find out the real mafia who are bandwagoning on a town for a easy mis-lynch. You rarely(never seen it) win a game of Mafia without friendly fire and mis-lynching innocent town because they played poorly, if you play poorly as town (which I've already gone over what not to do) then you deserve to get lynched. Numbers game means with 9 town and 3 mafia, you can lose up to 6 town until it's over without killing a single mafia (3-3 situation forces whichever team to have the fastest 3 votes in plurality) This is why I'm against Xatalos' case, he's making a case on another player and drawing out way too many bandwagoners who are willing to readily adopt his case because it's the only "strong" one out there. Newbie town are scared to voice their opinion so they latch onto a strong leader, but then if that leader is really mafia, then we have a bad situation for town. 4. I told you to stop your comments on RNG policy lynches because there is no logic behind them and is detrimental to town to waste time discussing it. You hiding behind your newbiness is not helping. It's okay to be a newb but I'm not going to take one of your reads seriously over mine because you have less experience and you keep harping on that as a defense. You make a case against me when I didn't even vote you, I told you to stop, you stopped, I left you alone. I have you pegged as a newb town in his first game, which I can relate to because I felt similar to you, unsure of myself, unwilling to be firm in my accusations. If you really think I'm mafia, make your stronger case, otherwise I'm going to ignore you and leave you to your own devices. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 02:58 Xatalos wrote: Think about that a bit more closely. Why would Mafia want to lead the pressure visibly when they could just sit in the shadows and carefully manipulate the general opinion? That's what I did when I was Mafia. Also, I only had a slight suspicion of imallinson, and he made good comments on ArcticFox and Dittert, so I didn't see the point in pushing him for now. On April 12 2012 16:17 Xatalos wrote: This post is something to keep in mind going forward. It's full of hesitation and indecisive comments... And he even starts talking about blue reads, just like ArcticFox. Perhaps he and ArcticFox have been talking about their blue reads in Mafia chat and slipped that discussion over to this thread? People I'm fine with lynching right now: ArcticFox, Dittert, yomi, imallinson. I'm pretty sure at least 1-2 of these players are Mafia. If you four want to clear yourselves in my eyes, something major needs to happen. I suggest everyone to read my case on ArcticFox and vote for him. I'd put his chances of being Mafia at 70-80%, which is extremely high for me considering it's this early. I also want to see his response, though, but I don't know what would convince me otherwise at this point (I guess an EVEN stronger Mafia read on someone else, which isn't an easy feat to achieve!). This is your first post on imallinson, you call this not suspecting him highly? You claim that he made good points on Arcticfox and Dittert. Arcticfox is the case you're trying to push. Dittert is easily regarded as suspicious for his poor rng proposal. So he gets away by agreeing with you on one case and following others thoughts on another? Yeah that's trying to blend in. If you bandwagon onto someone else's case and vote accordingly, you better have a good reason with your own opinions, otherwise that just lets mafia jump on the easiest mis-lynch case and defend themselves with "but Xatalos thought he was Mafia, and I believe in Xatalos, so thats why I voted this [innocent townie]!" If you convince enough people to help you lynch Arcticfox because this is plurality vote, and he flips town, I'm going after you and whoever voted along with you without any good reason. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 02:51 Xatalos wrote: Talking about policy lynches or blue roles isn't Mafia-like only because of my metagame experiences - it's universally not something town SHOULD be doing. I understand a new townie might not understand that, but you can't just let it slide based on "noob town". ArcticFox might just be a noob townie, but I haven't seen a better case against anyone else. What about you? Who do you think is Mafia and why? I'm leaning strongly towards imallinson at this point because he hasn't posted anything unique for himself, he's been hiding behind supporting your case against Arcticfox. Other reads I have now I am not willing to divulge at this point so they don't get defensive early, I'm curious to see how some of my suspects proceed as we still have 29 hours to go till deadline. I'll post a case on my vote target after I collect more evidence. The other suspicious person that everyone seems to agree on is Dittert, and I view him as simply a newb town and harmless. I'm taking note of the people so ready to jump on an easy target, being suspicious in itself should not be grounds for a lynch without decent evidence of malicious wrongdoing. I mis-lynched someone in Newbie V because he was "suspicious" and that was it, it was a mis-lynch and helped us lose the game because the other viable lynch was a real Mafia. I have learned from that and now I do not blindly agree with any lynches based on suspicion. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Xatalos I notice you're active and posting, respond to my previous posts quoting you please, how do you view imallinson at this point and his readiness to agree with you? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
If you want to be more active and useful for town yourself, take a moment and just pick a player (preferably someone not already under suspicion) and post your opinion on that person (including me if you want) whether he is looking pro-town, neutral, or anti-town. Don't lurk for fear of nothing to say. Try and contribute, and getting posts down where people can judge your reasoning and have a mental history of your opinions will be the reason you stay alive versus being targetted for lurking. This is targeted towards the players with less than a page of filter at this point. It's still midway through D1, but you need to step it up. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
We can have multiple candidates up for lynching with plurality vote, the person with the most votes among the candidates gets lynched (it's a lot better and easier to deal with than majority voting). Don't tunnel on one or two likely cases, we need to actively engage everyone so that no one has a chance to lurk or hide behind someone else, and that scum don't get a chance to bandwagon on an easy lynch. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 05:26 vonKlaust wrote: @BroodKingEXE Yes, me going with Xatalos against ArticFox was stupid. At the time, I tought the case looked strong, but looking back at it it doesn't seem that good of a case at all. I think I latched onto it because it was the only case going at the moment, and because I just didn't know what to do. I had a look at peoples filters, but I really felt that I couldn't find anything of value. It is true that I have not contributed that much when it comes to scum hunting. I've tried both to look at peoples filters and analyzing the thread in general, but pretty much to no avail until those posts by Xatalos caught my eye. So instead I tried to give feedback on other peoples ideas. Feedback on other people's ideas is not enough. You just recently made a post about Xatalos' case against Arcticfox when numerous people have already commented on it. Post your top scum read or top town read and have a unique opinion. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote: I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is wiliz. He states that wiliz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). He also flat out claims a lie, that could've easily been a mistake (his post against yomi). He doesn't seem to want to follow the way of the town (we have come to the conclusion that we aren't going to policy lynch). Overall I think he needs to put in better input for the amount of gunslinging he is doing. ##Vote: Dittert What is this vote? You're going to vote him because he's a bad town and that's "usually mafia" ? Dittert's case against me is mostly OMGUS, it has no basis, and I don't need any defending and you don't need any other explanation other than he made a really bad case against me? Put more effort in your reasoning, Dittert is way too easy of a target, and I stand by my opinion that he's just a newbie town that had his idea shut down really hard and is scrambling to come up with something to contribute. Post your opinion on anyone else besides Dittert for your top scum picks, don't tunnel on him. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:45 imallinson wrote: He is my strongest town read because I have no sort of town read on anyone else. It certainly isn't super strong and if someone had a good argument against him I could be swayed. I assumed that scum wouldn't want to put themselves out there like Xalatos had. I guess that scum could hide behind that which I hadn't thought of. Thank you for pointing that out. What's your opinion on my claims against you? Bandwagoning on any vote without good cause is still bandwagoning, even if you're the first person. If I have a different opinion of Xatalos's case vs ArcticFox and I disagree with it, but you still agree with him (meaning you don't agree with my interpretation), why? I also find it highly unlikely that you have no other town reads on anyone else, you just didn't think of anyone else because Xatalos's case against ArcticFox was the only discussion point. Be more assertive and decisive in your opinions. If one good argument sways you then you are the type of town Mafia love to keep around because you sheep other people's thoughts. Don't keep to this line of thinking. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I'm waiting on responses from at least half the thread, I'm not going to make a case based on this little posting, that's not going to convince anyone. I will have a case written up and posted at least 4-5 hours before deadline tomorrow(~1-2pm est), so that's enough time for discussion. Specifically, I'm calling out Yomi, BroodkingExe, HiroPro, imallinson, trumpetarm to post something, at least either their top town or scum read and their own opinions. I'm tired of seeing people pick on the easiest targets with little to no explanation. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 06:21 imallinson wrote: Well your claims against me are just that I hadn't posted anything of my own, which I've done now so I'm not really sure there is much to say unless there is something else about me you think is suspicious. Your criticism of me was perfectly valid but I have rectified your concern. As for other town reads I think dittert is more newb town than scum but it would be nice to hear from him. Acrofales I think is town but I'm not sure because he seems to jump his suspicion around a lot and I can't figure out why yet. You I'm leaning towards being town you seem to be fairly helpful and getting useful info from other people. Everyone else is neutral or a bit scummy in my mind. Your case on trumpetarm makes sense, are you still voting ArcticFox or are you changing your vote to trumpet based on what you've posted? I personally am giving a lot of people the benefit of being a newb and first game, but I may have clouded my own judgement in thinking this. You say that trumpetarm is more suspicious than dittert, when essentially they are making the same mistake, (lurking, not posting anything constructive) I'm giving people at least another 12 hours for the EU folks to respond to the accusations I've made. I suggest you give a little bit more time for the accused to respond as well. We have the same 4-5 people posting and it's getting us nowhere at this point. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Acrofales, what do you want me to say currently before they respond? I see 5 lurkers and I could pick any of them for various reasons, I'm willing to be patient and catch them slipping. If you want to question me, ask me my opinion on one of your own reads. Why should I be the only one contributing, my opinion is no more important than any of yours because this is a team-game. I can't win the game single-handedly, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm going to be the first person killed by Mafia, so I have to make the cases I make ironclad, and make sure of my reads before I die. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 06:39 BroodKingEXE wrote: We have to be careful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP. What do you mean by this? The idea of sharing scumlists is to build a consensus among town to reach a majority to successfully lynch someone. If multiple people think someone is scummy, there is a reason, and should be shared, even if it's misguided or incorrect because it builds/causes discussion. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
@HiroPro vonKlaust has a point, you were the only one of us to initially suspect Xatalos and voted so, but because you agree with his case towards vonKlaus now, you're willing to switch your vote and agree with the person you originally suspected? Also making a decision about lynching someone because he didn't or did vote his target is so arbitrarily illogical. Xatalos voted ArcticFox, now he's changing his vote, I have never even voted someone even though I had plenty of cause to (dittert, xatalos for the same reasons you originally stated) It's better to be consistent with your vote, changing votes constantly is scummy behavior because it shows that you are just looking for the easy lynch. @vonKlaust You have been pretty lackluster so far as a town player. You have a lot of baggage now that people are targeting you on, I may not be inclined to lynch you as readily as Xatalos or HiroPro, but you also haven't convinced me of your innocence either. Who are you willing to keep your vote on as of this moment among your top candidates? Make a case. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
@ HiroPro On April 13 2012 08:03 HiroPro wrote: Because the reason for me suspecting him was his bad case..... Obviously if he posts an actual good case, he doesn't appear as mafia to me. And the case against you has merit. I would also still like to know why you never voted for Xatalos if he was your strongest mafia read. You originally suspect him for a bad case but as long as he posts one you agree with, it makes it okay? Also you need to post your own opinion on vonKlaust's behavior, because I'm not going to allow you to agree with him without any explanation. Why specifically do you think vonKlaust is scum besides the case Xatalos posted? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I'd recommend you be around 1-2pm est tomorrow, I'll be making my case against the person I want to lynch most for D1. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote: Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: Yomi First off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Why are you continuing to waste discussion trying to drive a vote on me. I'm not even pushing for your lynch, what are you trying to accomplish? You won't even name anyone else suspicious besides myself and Yomi (who already is lurking and has a vote on him) You need to back off and stop tunneling on me already unless you've got more proof of my intentions? If you're going to be at work and you're going to miss the voting cutoff, why should town go along with your cases. You won't be around to support them and refute accusations, you basically say that you're going to be inactive and giving yourself an excuse to lurk, this is unacceptable. You are playing really poorly for town, I've given you numerous chances to prove yourself but now you're just being useless and sidetracking discussion. I'm going to stop defending you against people trying to lynch you. You also have no opinion on the numerous people who are trying to lynch you? And voting Yomi but saying "no it isn't OMGUS" doesn't exactly explain yourself, without any good reasoning you're still making essentially an OMGUS vote on him as well as me. What is this "lie" that you claim can be proven to be false and how does it on have any bearing on whether Yomi is scum or not? For your town reads, really, KB is at the top of your list because he didn't jump to vote you? Also, what's with the random vote of confidence for imallinson, "he seems normal?" Really? What about his behavior that Xatalos and I commented on? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 06:47 BroodKingEXE wrote: Mafia look at the scum lists and figure out who has the best sense of who they are. They then kill them You are trying to dissuade town from being transparent and posting their thoughts for fear of being a target by Mafia. I had this opinion too, why share your information so openly so early, but I learned from Gonzaw in Aperture Mafia that it's better to give 100% effort as town no matter if you die, in order to help the rest of the town figure out who's scum. Transparency and an active town is key to winning, you seem to be against this for fear of your own mortality, this is bad for town. So far you have managed to post numerous times about random things and calling out the lurkers, but you have yet to support any of your actions with evidence. You initially vote for Dittert and now you are willing to suddenly drop the vote based off 1 post? You are also willing to change your mind to Yomi, another candidate with multiple people voting for him and an easy lynch? What parts of his post do you specifically agree with when you say [quote= BroodKingEXE]You've put up some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off.[/quote] So far you've been just following people's thoughts and not posting your own or your own reasoning. Be more transparent. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 10:29 BroodKingEXE wrote: This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us? The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own. Okay, let's waste some time then since we're both here. Do you think I'm scum, and do you agree with Dittert's suspicion of me? If so, please post why. I don't care about your opinion if you do nothing to support it, POST EVIDENCE. If you really think I'm scum, then go ahead and make a case. I'm trying to lead town to avoid lynching Dittert and he keeps posting things that will continue to get him lynched. Also what is this supposed to mean? The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. So how do you know who's mafia and who's opinion to ignore? Scumslipping perhaps?This is a team based game, we need to be working together, I want to work with him, but if he's going to continue being suspicious of me, I'm going to write him off as well as his opinions. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
What parts of his post do you specifically agree with when you say You've put up some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off. So far you've been just following people's thoughts and not posting your own or your own reasoning. Be more transparent.[/QUOTE] | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
1. I'm not asking you to quit your job, I understand RL concerns will always take importance over a forum game. I am only suspicious in your eyes, you even say yourself that you probably won't get the vote through on me, because I'm "Ralph Nader" ;p 2. You've successfully solved the puzzle in 1 day? My god it was ArcticFox, Yomi, and willz22912 the whole time?! Really, based on what? 3.You have already stated you agree you are playing poorly as town, why should fellow town give your case any credibility? Why should we believe you over me? I have defended you because I think you have been misguided, and I believe that you are really town, do you really think that everyone who voted you initially had no cause and that they were all wrong for thinking your actions suspicious? 4. Okay, so I attacked you first over your RNG lynch proposal. That is indeed a lie by him, is that enough to justify lynching him in your eyes? 5. KB is at the top of your list because he actively sought out the alignment of HiroPro by making a really terrible pressure-vote that was pretty much ignored by everyone and he himself stated it didn't do anything? 6. If you want to keep your town read to yourself fine, but doing so for fear of endangering his life is a really poor reason and anti-town. Town is supposed to be transparent, if you hide your opinion of this person now, why should the town believe you when you claim he was your top town read the whole time? This part goes out to everyone. Continue to be transparent with your scum reads, and ignore your mortality. Hiding things for fear of your death D1? It takes until Night1 for Mafia to kill someone, and it will still be only 1 person at a time. I'm already pretty sure I'm getting taken out first because I'm the most active, so I'm not hesitating in posting what I need to. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
The only people who know for sure are Mafia and a DT if we have one, but the DT can't use his ability until nighttime, so we can't even rely on that. What are you trying to show or prove by posting this? I'm trying to get Dittert to drop his suspicions on me, he continues to keep them and is progressively adding additional people into this conspiracy he alone sees. He thinks the Mafia team consists of myself, ArcticFox, and Yomi. He claims this because of his original theory against me (that no one else is willing to agree with), my actions towards defending ArcticFox from Xatalos and me calling out Yomi to post more? Town needs to defend other town from mis-lynches if they feel it is a mistake. I don't particularly need to believe in Dittert, but I don't need him being lynched by everyone else because he was an easy lynch. Do you not agree with this? Do you not want someone to defend you if you are town? You are continuing to propose poor decisions on the part of town, adding to my suspicions of you. Also @ BroodKingEXE, where's the response to this: On April 13 2012 10:42 willz22912 wrote: Okay, let's waste some time then since we're both here. Do you think I'm scum, and do you agree with Dittert's suspicion of me? If so, please post why. I don't care about your opinion if you do nothing to support it, POST EVIDENCE. If you really think I'm scum, then go ahead and make a case. I'm trying to lead town to avoid lynching Dittert and he keeps posting things that will continue to get him lynched. Also what is this supposed to mean? So how do you know who's mafia and who's opinion to ignore? Scumslipping perhaps? This is a team based game, we need to be working together, I want to work with him, but if he's going to continue being suspicious of me, I'm going to write him off as well as his opinions. You continue to dodge the question, do you seriously believe I am Mafia, if so, WHY. Don't keep posting comments on my posts if you're not going to do anything with them. How am I supposed to know who's really town and who's really Mafia, the answer is I don't. But I've seen mistakes like Dittert's play before, and I'm trying to convince others to ignore it, but if you've read the thread, Dittert was the #1 target for many people for his rng lynch proposal, and then for his followup case on me. I'm trying to get him to stop so he stops accruing suspicion, if I was Mafia, why wouldn't I let him continue to clog up the thread and then lynch him for being so suspicious like everyone else wanted to? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I remind you that you called me out on one post but did nothing of substance with that accusation. Now you've posted 3 more posts on this page adding to your filter without anything useful being added as well. I leave that for everyone else to ponder. Good night. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Since the vote is already 5 against me, I'll lay out my case in my next post and my top mafia reads. If that doesn't sway your vote, fine, but I will have done the best I can to help town before my death, and I now understand that was I a bit too aggressive. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I advise everyone to in addition to this case where I point out his most glaring scumminess, take a look at his filter as a whole and see how much contribution he's really done. If you are accusing me of contributing without contributing, then what has he been doing? 1. Initially is suspicious of Dittert here, one of the top targets considering his RNG proposal and how hard it was shut down by myself and ArcticFox: On April 12 2012 11:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: We're all newbies at this game, why duck responsibility for your statement? And the discussion was already rolling why did you feel the need to redirect the topic? Trying to establish yourself as the topic starter after an active discussion was already going on: feels a little scummy to me. 2. Calls for a consolidation of the vote here to narrow down the likely suspects for a lynch so that Mafia have a easier time to hide behind the bandwagon: @The Town: I am kind of worried about the state of the town right now. So far accusations have been flung at everyone in town. This is exactly what the mafia want: us to throw the blame at each other. My suggestion is everyone come up with a vote based on what we have heard in order to consolidate our ideas. This way there will be more pressure on the accused to act. 3. Next, he follows up on his "suspicions" of Dittert by posting this: I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is wiliz. He states that wiliz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia. 4. I immediately call BroodKingEXE out for his vote on Dittert and here is his response: On April 13 2012 06:37 BroodKingEXE wrote: @wiliz The problem I have with Dittert is his inactivity, after making an accusation. My vote is by no means confirmed by his inactivity, but its almost halfway through the day and he hasn't put in much effort at all. Hiro has offered nothing substantial as well, bandwagoning on the suspicions of Xatalos. Dittert's claim seems more shaky to me \so I'm going to keep my vote on him. We have to becareful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP. Notice that his reasoning for Dittert is very flimsy, he's willing to change his vote at anytime, but feels like picking on the easiest target with the most suspicion and gives little to no weight to his case. Then take a look at the part I highlighted in red, here he starts arguing against transparency and having town not release scumlists. How is that not anti-town behavior? Releasing scumlists helps us hunt scum, it's as simple as that, information not shared is information not known. Very scummy in my mind. 5. BroodKingEXE lets Dittert off the hook with 1 post! Here: On April 13 2012 10:17 BroodKingEXE wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote: Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: Yomi First off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Glad to see you post Dittert. Innocence will save you, a townie will act like a townie and mafia like a mafia. No matter how hard they try the Mafia will always make mistakes, and as long as you are actively speaking we will be able to see the difference. You've put some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off. I don't like your comment about an agenda though, as my only agenda should be helping the town. Me asking questions is my way of scumhunting, so I will continue to call out people on what I see. ##Unvote So basically, the whole vote on Dittert was pointless, one post (not even saying what parts of it was "good information") lets him take off the vote? How strong are BroodKingEXE's convictions, how readily is he willing to drop his vote and change it to the most easiest target, currently myself? He calls out Yomi here: On April 13 2012 08:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Yomi You vote for dittert. Which means you must make a case against him, or at least declare pressure vote. I started a policy discussion as well, so what makes Dittert more scummy than myself? If you think Artic is defending Dittert(if they are both mafia) I want to know what gives Dittert the lynch today and not tommorrow. Did BroodkingExe in your minds declare a pressure vote, or make a decent case against Dittert? No? Then why is he calling out Yomi for his own hypocrisy? 6. When I defend myself against Dittert's accusation, and tell him to stop because he's not helping. I was admittedly angry because of how relentless he had become in his tunneling of me and took it out on Dittert. BroodkingEXE however, jumps in with this: This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us? The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own. He says there is no wasted discussion, and every post is important, but he doesn't contribute anything of value except for commenting on my posts against Dittert. But note the red part I highlighted here, What is that sentence supposed to mean? How does he know who is mafia and who is town, and whose opinion is important, does he have the inside knowledge of who's who that only a Mafia would have at this point? You decide. 7. He continues to post comments about my "discussion" with Dittert: On April 13 2012 11:25 BroodKingEXE wrote: @willz You clearly said that his opinion about you didn't matter. You say that you having been defending dittert the whole time. You've only done that once as far as I can see. Even if you were defending dittert he doesn't owe you anything, if he thinks you are scum he can't kiss up to save his own hide. If he is thinking on the wrong track then you need to put him back on the right track. This discussion isn't wasted either if we can prove the alignment of each other that is 2 less people the town have to analyze. I stated that I believed Dittert to be a newbie town who is tunneling me because of a misguided notion that I was trying to mis-lynch him (when did I ever do this, where in the thread did I call on others to vote for Dittert?) Even if I was defending Dittert he doesn't owe me anything, what cause would I have for defending him other than believing he was town, and that town should defend other town? What possible reason could I have as Mafia to defend Dittert? Also note the red part I highlighted again, What is this statement mean as well? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of one another, how am I supposed to change Dittert's opinion of me if he continues to think I am Mafia when I am not? 8. I call BroodKingEXE out on his comments about my posts, and whether or not he has enough spine to actually adhere to a stance: His response is this: On April 13 2012 11:59 BroodKingEXE wrote: @willz at the moment I dont see anything particularly damning about your other posts, but why waste time engaging dittert? If you really think he is a newbie, then he is really no threat to you. We as a town haven't come to a consensus to vote for you. I think that yomi's baseless accusations are still more damning. So for all the posts he's made about me, he doesn't see anything wrong with any of my other posts, but currently thinks Yomi is still more suspicious than me. He was not willing to go out on his own and make a case against me supporting Dittert's accusations, he was willing to just post fluff and seem like he's contributing. 9 Finally, his last post and the vote he makes on me: On April 14 2012 00:54 BroodKingEXE wrote: I have had time to look over the thread and have come up with some more evidence against willz. His posts are scummy in that they shoot down ideas of people. He hasn't analyzed anyones posts based on their content and seems to be denying open discussion based on who he thinks is scum. I have a problem with this as he said he is all for open discussion, yet he is shooting down ideas. He said that he didn't want to waste time discussing useless things, yet he dug in quite hard on trying to defend dittert even though he thought he was a newbie (and thus had no power). Also, in his in own words the discussion with me was wasted. He didn't chose to uphold his own values, in order to engage me( he didn't even state if he thought I was scum or not). Vote: willz22912 @AFox the reason I said that was to point out the hippocracy of the situation. He said himself we shouldn't be wasting time, so why did he need to engage dittert (as he said dittert had no case against him). He fell for the bait admitting that the whole thing was trivial, which leads me to believe he is a scum who won't stand by their values. So now when 4 other people are against me and my lynch is all but assured, he jumps in at the last moment with this? This is plurality vote, 4 should have been enough already, but 5 is all but pointless. Even if you don't change your vote on me, please look at BroodKingEXE for bandwagoning on my lynch with little to no support when I flip town. Posting my rebuttal of all of your accusations now. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Vote: BroodKingEXE | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:54 Dittert wrote: + Show Spoiler + ##Unvote: yomi ##Vote: willz22912 Yay! Now that my case against willz seems to be making more sense to people, I think we might actually be able to lynch him. Further evidence damning willz (in my eyes, at least): 1. He responds to my accusation of him with evidence... no, wait. Not evidence, just a list of questions. On April 13 2012 11:02 willz22912 wrote: @ Dittert. I'm going to go over everything you said and respond to it. 1. I'm not asking you to quit your job, I understand RL concerns will always take importance over a forum game. I am only suspicious in your eyes, you even say yourself that you probably won't get the vote through on me, because I'm "Ralph Nader" ;p 2. You've successfully solved the puzzle in 1 day? My god it was ArcticFox, Yomi, and willz22912 the whole time?! Really, based on what? 3.You have already stated you agree you are playing poorly as town, why should fellow town give your case any credibility? Why should we believe you over me? I have defended you because I think you have been misguided, and I believe that you are really town, do you really think that everyone who voted you initially had no cause and that they were all wrong for thinking your actions suspicious? 4. Okay, so I attacked you first over your RNG lynch proposal. That is indeed a lie by him, is that enough to justify lynching him in your eyes? 5. KB is at the top of your list because he actively sought out the alignment of HiroPro by making a really terrible pressure-vote that was pretty much ignored by everyone and he himself stated it didn't do anything? 6. If you want to keep your town read to yourself fine, but doing so for fear of endangering his life is a really poor reason and anti-town. Town is supposed to be transparent, if you hide your opinion of this person now, why should the town believe you when you claim he was your top town read the whole time? This part goes out to everyone. Continue to be transparent with your scum reads, and ignore your mortality. Hiding things for fear of your death D1? It takes until Night1 for Mafia to kill someone, and it will still be only 1 person at a time. I'm already pretty sure I'm getting taken out first because I'm the most active, so I'm not hesitating in posting what I need to. Basically every sentence in that post is a question. He even ends some of the ones that aren't questions with question marks. He can't defend himself with facts or statements because he hasn't really made any. The only thing he has to keep him from the gallows is smoke and mirrors. 2. Though he has participated a lot, he has not really accused anyone of anything (with a nod to the token aggression towards iamallinson). I think he's waiting until the very end to make any concrete statement so he can judge what stance will be most beneficial to scum. By taking my vote off yomi, I do not think yomi is town. I'd just rather lynch willz because he's obviously the leader. We don't need him in here confusing the town anymore. I made a rebuttal to you based on your accusations, I also admit I was angry so I rushed this response, but you never responded to this until now. I have asked you questions about why you think I originally intended to push your mis-lynch. I never stated ever that I believe you are anything but a newbie town. What reasoning do I have to defend you other than I believe we are both town and town should defend each other. Yet you ignore all of this and continue to push my lynch, on what grounds? I fail to see where I have given you the impression of my true Mafia behavior. I also admit some of my anger and frustration were that you, in your own words have played poorly as town, this is your first Mafia game ever, yet I'm supposed to let you keep attacking me with no basis, and treat your opinion with as much weight as mine. I have played in Newbie V and to a lesser extent Aperture, this will be my last newbie game, and I have rolled town every single time, and I want to win as town, so I became way more aggressive than I usually am. I am sorry if I have personally offended you with my comments about the time you are able to spend. I get it, you have a job, you can't play this and be as active as other players. That's fine, I still think you're a newbie town who won't let go ( a common mistake) but now you're about to get me lynched and I'm just kind of sad. I did not accuse anyone because I did not believe in their inherent scummy behavior. When I attacked you for your RNG proposal, I just told you to stop because it was anti-town, I did not immediately label you scum and try to drive your lynch. When Xatalos made his case against ArcticFox, I did not label Xatalos scum for trying to make a poor case, I saw that he was tunneling based on his own ideas from GoT. I only called out people who needed calling out and defended people who needed defending. Town defends other town, Mafia tries to bandwagon behind likely lynches and follows the town around. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Thanks for pointing that out. Anyway, adding on and trying to be as transparent as I can since I'm pretty much getting lynched. My other top scum reads are KharadBanar (He played well in Newbie VI if you see his OP and his filter, but he has posted little to nothing of worth, never stated an opinion on me, and now is jumping on my lynch because it's easy. Here's his post: On April 13 2012 20:31 KharadBanar wrote: Okay, I just got up and caught up with the thread, and that huge post by Acrofales did change my priorities here somewhat: Before, my biggest scum reads went something like this: Dittert, yomi, HiroPro, maybe BroodKing (?) I had my vote on yomi to get him to contribute something useful, which isn't going to happen until shortly before the deadline so it's useless on him for that purpose and better off on one of my bigger scum reads. Now Acrofales has posted his suspicion on willz, I see some extremely good points in that post and did as he said (read through willz's filter (1) "knowing" he was mafia and (2) "knowing" he was town) and the mafia explanation really does make a lot more sense. Now my scum reads go as follows: willz, probably Dittert, and likely one of yomi and HiroPro the lurkers. With this in mind, and the fact that willz really needs to explain himself, I will change my vote to him for he is my biggest scum read right now. ##Unvote ##Vote: willz22912 So his opinion of Mafia behavior is to bus someone else this early? Why would Dittert be Mafia yet push his teammate's lynch? How does this logic work? What basis do you have of your own opinion to vote me, considering you never even had me on your radar before. My last suspicion is either imallinson or HiroPro, I called out imallinson because he was so quick to drop his stances on everything with a "good argument" and that Xatalos was letting him latch onto his case against ArcticFox without any questioning. HiroPro has also not contributed nearly as much as he could have. Lastly, I am also willing to give Yomi the benefit of the doubt and assume he's an overly defensive newb (since this is his first game as well) Say what you want about me OMGUSing my suspicions, I'm going to be dead after today, you need to remember these names and remember what I posted. I will try and be active as I can until the deadline in order to be of the most use to town. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
That is a fair point, I should have not have been a hypocrite, I was worried that if I jumped the gun on my case and my suspicions too early, the Mafia would have enough time to coordinate a defense of it. In my mind this made sense, but I can see where everyone else thinks that it's hypocritical, which it is, but it's really too late to argue. I am posting my reads now, but if it's not going to sway you, it's not going to sway you. I fully accept that I over-reached and was too aggressive and now I am getting lynched for it. I may disagree with the basis, but I understand why it has come. I will continue to poke holes in people's logic for why they are voting me in an attempt to save myself, but it's mostly so the rest of the town can see who's scum and hiding on my bandwagon. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:39 Xatalos wrote: Acrofales, I looked at Willz's filter and I agree something is off about him. It's weird, because initially he was my strongest town read (replaced by you later), but his later posts have been more and more suspicious. ArcticFox and imallinson addressed my cases against them by calmly finding the holes in my logic, but Willz didn't actually respond to Dittert's (somewhat weak) accusations - instead he chose to start an OMGUS war against Dittert ("why do you want to lynch me, I didn't want to lynch you before, but now I do, because you want to lynch me!"). He has also been saying everyone should be transparent, but he himself has been the opposite of transparent. Why would a townie indeed want to hide his opinions so much? I still don't want to lynch Dittert, I still believe he is a newbie town and he will be very chagrined by the alignment I flip. I did not really start the OMGUS war, because I see that the original basis for Dittert's case against me was that he thought I was trying to start a mis-lynch on him because of his rng-proposal. Technically, he has started the OMGUS war all along. I only got angry about it, which has led to my downfall. You even state here that it's (somewhat weak) accusations. I did try to address them, but it was mostly about specific posts I made (out of many) that he found suspicious. He never made a solid case against me, I just wanted him to stop. If you are willing to lynch me because I became overly defensive when it came to a first time forum player continuing to attack me with what everyone agrees is poor logic, that's fine, but realize that I still don't think that Dittert is Mafia, and when I flip, please don't lynch him first, go after the others on my bandwagon. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 14 2012 02:19 imallinson wrote: I dropped my stance on Arctic after he and other people had poked holes in Xatalos' argument, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. Then I made a case against trumpetarn and have stuck with it when bandwaggoning you would have been the easiest thing in the world. I'm not entirely sure why you think I am so quick to drop my stances (especially confused about the plurality there I have only changed my vote once and that was due to a reasoned counter-argument). I appreciate that you haven't jumped on my bandwagon as well, but that doesn't mean you're not one of the three. There's already enough votes on me to pretty much guarantee it, it would draw too much suspicion everyone voted me. You may indeed be town after all, I'm only trying to be transparent until I die, it's better that I post what I think of you than for town to not know. It may help them in the end. I think your case against Trumperarn has some merit because of how much he has lurked, but he also seems like a very newbie town in his first game, so I really don't know what to make of him really since he hasn't posted anything about me anyway. I would lean towards newbie town, but I have given that excuse to Dittert and Yomi so far, and look where that has gotten me =/ | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
You're really going to assume that this is a giant ploy by Mafia to bus me so Dittert gains credibility? I find that to be totally without basis and completely WIFOM on what Mafia would do. Fine, don't exclude it from your thinking, but do you really honestly believe that is the most likely scenario here? What about that we're both town and it's a mis-lynch, that is not likely at all to you? Why are you associating that Dittert and I are both Mafia in your minds so strongly? You've posted in the past about your suspicions about Dittert, but this is the first time you've linked us together as the Mafia team, and that logic is absurd and full of WIFOM. Also, you post holes in my case about BroodKingEXE but you seem to gloss over the correlation between 8. and 9. So you're willing to let him slide for admitting that he saw nothing suspicious or wrong about anything else, but when Acrofales makes his case, he's allowed to go from 0 suspicion to voting me? So again, BroodKingEXE is not willing to make his own case, but he will eagerly follow anothers lead? Does this not strike you as scummy? You also think the Acrofales case on me is the key point in my demise, okay, I will go write a rebuttal to that now. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
You're right it probably wasn't worth waiting 42 hours over, but I can't help that now. I'm going with my read on BroodKingEXE over everyone else at this point I suspect because I feel he is the most dangerous. Did you not look at points 8 and 9 in my list? How can you explain that behavior, I flat out asked him if he had any suspicions of me last night, he said no. This morning, I read that Acrofales has posted a case on me, and that allows BroodKingEXE to sheep the vote and say, "Why yes I have had my suspicions of willz22912 all along!" I am pointing out that Dittert made several plays that can be concluded as newbie, such as the rng proposal, his defense saying that he's a newb, and the tunneling on me. I do not feel the same way towards BroodKingEXE because he has not been firm in his convictions or his voting patterns. He constantly waffles towards the easiest lynch and he is unwilling to show what he really thinks. I at least can respect Dittert for being decisive in his opinion, even if it's going to get me killed. I can not say the same for BroodKingEXE because he had ample opportunity to support Dittert's case but chose not to. If BroodKingEXE really thought I was Mafia then why didn't he just say so last night, he had enough evidence from my arguing with Dittert. Instead he chose to let the work fall on Acrofales. He screams bandwagoner and trying to blend in, far more so than anyone else. You may also be right in that I finalized my opinion on him partly because he is one of the ones voting me more so than the others that I pointed out as scummy. I probably can't help that in being objective, I kind of want to get rid of the person who helped seal my fate first. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 14 2012 03:06 KharadBanar wrote: About the bus: I don't have 100% scum reads on both you and Dittert. The fact that you're my strongest reads doesn't mean there is not actually a higher possibility of only one of you being scum, where this isn't a bus but either a scum member accusing a townie or a townie being right in his speculation. I just see a high possibility of there being a scum between the two of you. If you manage to explain your motivations behind the things Acrofales pointed out about you, I'd probably be willing to take my vote off you, because yomi and HiroPro then seem more scummy to me at this point, so please go ahead. Can you be more specific about what you want me to explain? Acrofales case is really long and I don't know what exactly you're looking for. I'd like to be as transparent as I can even if I still die, because I know this will help town. Please respond with what you wish to know and I will answer as best I can. I can already say that I have not played nearly as well as I thought, and I agree with my hypocrisy in calling for transparency yet holding onto my own opinions. Other than that part of his post, I was overly defensive against Dittert because he wouldn't leave me alone, that got me angry and asking him why he keeps insisting that I'm Mafia without reinforcing his case when I asked him what I have done to draw his suspicions. Wouldn't you be annoyed at someone if they were saying you were calling for their mis-lynch when I did nothing of the sort, and that was the basis of his original argument and the one he just used? That is a flat out lie, yet he seems to not realize it himself, then he goes on about how his RL is important and he has no time to play this game as much as others. Fine, RL obviously takes precedence, but that means in his limited time playing Mafia, he won't switch off accusing me constantly, he won't look at anyone else, but I can't call him out on it because he doesn't have enough time, that's part of why I was angry as well. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
That's 3 guaranteed, and it's probably not worth it to change the vote now. The best move for town is to confirm my lynch and flip and see who voted for me and while, along with getting my opinion on ANYTHING or ANYONE before I die since I won't be able to speak again after tonight. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I'm obviously going to be willing to stay alive, but who could I support to lynch in my place without looking desperate? The two votes not in yet are the lurkers. ArcticFox thinks Yomi is still Mafia, I personally disagree with this, I won't support that lynch. imallinson, you think trumpetarn is a valid lynch, I think he's a newb town still, but he is also the most inactive and lurker of us all and hardly a benefit to town. I would be willing to switch my vote to him, but that still wouldn't get him lynched over me, and would reek of desperation. No I'm content with my fate, just going to try and be as useful to town as I can and then hopefully see you guys win in the end. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Okay, I accused people of picking easy targets at the time because the only people under suspicion were: Dittert for his RNG proposal, and ArcticFox by Xatalos. I defended both of these people because of the weak reasoning used in attacking them. I did not really pick easy targets without explanation, if you look through my filter earlier in the game, I posted many questions to many of the lurkers and told them to post their top town/scum reads in order for them to be more active. I was waiting to see how they would respond, and I was keeping the time difference in mind(since we have a lot of EU folks) in order to give them enough time to post. The distinction here is that I never called out anyone for suspicious behavior other than lurking. I just told them to post, how is that picking easy targets without explanation? I am a hypocrite about transparency, but don't accuse me of calling suspicions on anyone. The only suspicions I posted were about imallinson's readiness to support Xatalos (which Xatalos even commented on was worth looking at) because I couldn't get a firm read on anyone that early into the game. I took a look at BroodKingEXE's filter midway through the day and decided that he wasn't being firm enough in his stances and that sounded scummy to me. Later that night, myself Dittert and BroodKingEXE were the only ones posting and BroodKingEXE continued to post comments about me without any opinion on them. My case against BroodKingEXE shouldn't be considered OMGUS, he has been flaky multiple times without any concrete opinion on anything, he always follows the opinions of others. He claims in his defense of my case that he just waited to post to make a decision in the morning, conveniently after Acrofales makes his case and everyone voted for me? He just said the night before that he did not find any other post I made suspicious, why not at least say I have some suspicions of you but I'll wait till I hear more? He made a 180 in opinion and you guys are letting him get away with it, the only mistake I made was waiting too long on my opinions and not calling him out earlier. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 14 2012 03:43 KharadBanar wrote: willz: This is not what I meant when I said "If you're really a townie don't gg yet" >_> I think you still look pretty scummy after Acrofales' post, but if you manage to explain that behaviour I'm willing to vote someone else. If you are "content with your fate" of getting lynched, I view that as an admission to not being able to properly explain yourself, and it makes you feel scummier. Just putting that thought process out there. You need to look at the math I already posted. I am dead by voting, but that doesn't mean I'm not posting. My alignment flip will show the town that I really was green all along, and that the people pushing my case made a mistake. I'm not going to convince anyone I'm not Mafia until then, but I know I have been right all along. Don't say that I'm content with my fate and that is an admission to not being able to explain myself. I already stated why I'm already dead, I could just shut up entirely and not contribute but I'm not doing that am I? Acrofales, Dittert, BroodKingEXE are three votes that won't switch for various reasons, that means I won't be able to save myself even if I wanted to, so I'm not even going to try and waste time trying to change the vote, and I'm trying to be as productive as I can until I get lynched. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 14 2012 03:43 BroodKingEXE wrote: @dittert Even if you are dead, a townie would look for scum. If you really are a townie build a case against someone else. You've been asking questions all game, why not use the errors you found when you asked those to guide your suspicions. Would building a case against someone else convince you to not vote me? Then why should I bother building another case when I believe you're really Mafia? I've already stated my suspicions are on HiroPro (mostly for lurking), imallinson (for readily following Xatalos, although he has rebutted this, and I'm not so sure of this) and KharadBanar, who I feel is under-performing considering how he played in Newbie VI. His explanation for this is that he needs time to ramp up and his D1 isn't very good. Yomi: I feel he was overly defensive, a trait that newbie town usually display (he also posted this was his first game as well) He thinks Dittert is still Mafia, which I don't agree with, but that doesn't make him Mafia in my eyes. Still newbie town to me. Dittert: I feel he is going to be unhappy with himself when I flip green, but hopefully the town won't lynch him in response. He tunneled me and he played poorly as town, but that still means he's town in my mind. Xatalos: I feel the most town vibe from him for his willingness to at least start discussion with his case on ArcticFox, but he needs to step up his game since he has experience from GoT Acrofales: Also played in GoT Mafia, probably one of the more experienced newbs, have a good town vibe about him, his case against me is not without cause, and has good logic in it. I cannot blame him for reaching his conclusions because it was my own mistakes he pointed out. vonKlaust: Newbie town, pretty indecisive but without malicious intent, needs to be more assertive and stand by his opinions. Probably town in my eyes. Trumpetarn: Lurking the most out of anyone, probably newbie town with the way he entered the conversation and how he presented himself. Anything else I need to post? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
You may be right about Yomi, but I feel it's most beneficial for town at this point to confirm my lynch and get the information from my flip to decide about others. If you are right, then when I flip green, your case on Yomi is stronger because of it. If you leave me alive and we lynch Yomi instead and he flips green as well (which I still think is possible), then you have no choice but to lynch me next and then we have 2 mis-lynches in a row. It's better to have me martyr myself for town than to try and save me at this point. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Read Xatalos' argument, it makes sense. If yomi was Mafia and he knew I was the likely lynch target, and he knows I'm really town, he can post that in his defense freely without giving too much away, it gains him credibility. The only reason he would post that without any other support is if he had inside knowledge I think Yomi is newbie because he's tunneling Dittert for the same reason Dittert is tunneling me. Do you think Dittert is Mafia for posting the original case against me and trying to lynch me? How is this any different from Yomi against Dittert? They're both newb towns tunneling everyone. I read through Acrofale's case on me and I see the logic in it because I'm reading an unbiased version of my accounts from a different perspective. I cannot argue against it, it makes sense, I suppose he could be Mafia making an easy case because of previous circumstance (Dittert/BroodKingEXE responses to me) but that's up to you to figure out since I won't be around now will I? What do you want me to do, save myself by changing my vote to Yomi? And what happens if he flips red, all is forgiven and everyone will overlook my behavior? What happens if he flips green, then how do I explain myself? I'm in a lose-lose situation personally, and the best thing I can do for town is let my lynch go through and flip green to prove I was town. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
##Vote: Willz22912 This discussion is now pointless for me, and I'm a little sad/angry at myself for my poor play for letting it come to this point, so I'm going to leave now. I've stated all I can, I'll keep up with the thread and hopefully see a town victory. Town, look at who voted me, but focus on BroodkingEXE please, ignore Dittert, he doesn't know any better. I suppose you should also look at Acrofales for making an easy case against me and then peacing out. GL | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Don't worry about it, if you are right you can get him D2. @ ArcticFox I could be wrong couldn't I about Yomi? I could be defending a Mafia unintentionally and being blind to the possibility, so I shouldn't tunnel my thinking. However, Xatalos's case against Yomi relies on my flip being green to give it weight, ergo I must die. Do you really want me to vote Yomi? Fine, but I don't see how it's going to help how people think of me, I have 0 credibility left with town, it's really pointless to keep me alive, but okay whatever. ##Unvote: Willz22912 ##Vote: Yomi | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Still this leaves me with a shitty situation. I have little to no credibility (I made town wait around for so long for a bad case against a bad townie in the end) Trying to read scum behavior after that lynch vote is also going to super hard. I did not expect the majority to change within 30m to BroodKingEXE after he made that one terrible post. It screamed scumslip yes, but now we know that Mafia had a mis-lynch practically given to them. It's highly likely that all the Mafia members are in that lynch somewhere because it was so easy to justify. Makes the rest of the town's job harder. As to my play, I will try and step it up and be more transparent from now on, I promise. If I don't feel free to lynch me, but at this point I have to do a major rethinking of everything. I was expecting to be the lynch target on D1, and now I find myself alive but my proposed target dead in my place (and a town to boot). I won't be around for much of this night, I will be busy hanging out with family, I might be home in time for the N1 rollover, but that's not a guarantee. I'm also going to try to tone down my post count as well, I can easily see that I have the largest filter, but it's mostly full of fluff at this point. Being active is good, spamming the thread as I have been doing is bad. This is not an excuse for me to lurk, I'm merely saying I will be posting less (and hopefully better) responses. Thanks for keeping me alive town, I'll do my best to earn this second chance. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Xatalos, I may have played more towny than Yomi when I was on the chopping block, but that shouldn't let you ignore me in comparison to Yomi. You made your case against Yomi but a lot of it is just different playstyle, if I wasn't trying to play so positive compared to Yomi, I'd easily be the top suspect in your mind as well. You have been tunneling on Yomi a bit too much imo without looking at others, and a lot of your case against Yomi does rely on what alignment I flip, so if you want to lynch Yomi D2, you may as well have me vig shotted so I flip town and help your case. Also, this constant talk about blue actions is extremely ironic considering that was what you accused ArcticFox in the very beginning, irony much? Dittert, I thought before you were a newbie town since you did post this was your first game ever, now you're angry as well and for what reason? You already stated you have a RL, if you don't have time to play the game I can't hold that against you, but coming in well after everything was decided and saying, "I was right all along" seems very arrogant and without basis. It's easy to say that BroodKingEXE was town all along when all you had to do was read the Night post and confirm it. You had as much information as everyone else did about what his alignment really was, and he ended up getting himself lynched for that poor decision. For everyone targeting my previous behaviors, I don't have time right now to respond to all of it, but when Xatalos made his case against ArcticFox, he clearly stated I am "80% confident you are Mafia". At the time, between that and Dittert, he was the most "suspicious" player on the field and the only one with a solid case against. I saw numerous people subtly agree with Xatalos's case without really posting their own opinion, aka bandwagoning. I destroyed that case and called out the people who were following along without thinking (namely at this point imallinson, but he addressed this) The reason behind looking at bandwagoned votes is that it's very easy for a Mafia when presented with a mis-lynch of a town to follow behind without having to state their own opinion because of the blatant behavior of said town player. Acrofales made a very good case against me, I will not defend myself saying he did not. Therefore, I presume that any Mafia that thinks I have a good shot of getting lynched will jump on my bandwagon without needing to clarify themselves. This was primarily why I picked Brood out of anyone else to make my case against, he has clearly waffled all game, in the end he was just a bad town and not a real scum (even though he exhibited plenty of scum behavior in hindsight) Also, my mopyness and self vote was readily explained if you read the situation. I was being lynched, I felt it was mathematically impossible to get out of it, so I wanted to just vote myself and confirm it, and then give my flip to town giving weight to the statements made by Xatalos, and myself when I posted what I could before the lynch. Contrast this behavior to Brood, the least he could have done if he was set to be lynched was to post anything in terms of reads that could be useful, but instead he just keeps trying to defend himself. Which do you think is better town play, accepting your fate and trying to be useful or continuing to futilely defend yourself and don't post anything else useful? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:55 vonKlaust wrote: While I must admit that I'm not the biggest fan of Ditterts' case on Willz, I think it had one good point, namely this: This comment by Willz is about as strange as Broods slip. Why in heavens name would town want to lynch town? Willz answers this in a post aimed at Dittert. Here's what he wrote: There is a veeery big difference between townies willing to kill other townies and townies mislynching other townies on purpose to punish bad play. Willz however seem to think that delibretly killing people that you suspect as being town can be a good thing, because of the reason that we get information from the votes. At the same time he claims he does not like Xatalos play since it "draws out too many bandwagoners". If we want to lynch townies to analyze bandwagons(or when anyone get lynched at all for that matter), the amount of votes on that townie is gonna be pretty large. We're unlikely to get lynches with 2-3 votes. I can't see how Xatalos is doing anything bad if you at the same time hold the position that it's worth to lynch townies to get information. Also I'm curious about this: How does these number have anything to do with his stance Xatalos' case? I would like Willz to explain this. And while I'm at it I would like to post a note on a similar subject: Xatalos, I think you have to chill with your accusations. In my opinion your cases so far have been pretty weak. This plus the fact that you alot of the time seem to have 100% confidence in your reads actually spreads more confusion than helpfullness. Your reasoning is weak at times and in my opinion you base way too much of your reasoning on meta and your experiences from your previous games. I actually think that Yomi is right when he says that you are too suspicious of people. Sure, you should call people on their bullshit, but you seem to get convinced of people being scum for any little wierd thing they post. For example in your recent case against Yomi, one of your key points is that he has said that he thinks Willz is innocent like three times troughout the thread. I don't even think this is wierd, but you seems to think that this is highly suspicious. Sure, you can argue that he doesn't really have an explanation, but so far pretty much no one as far as i remember have actually provided any evidence on their town reads exept for saying stuff like "I think he's town because his posts seem mostly pro-town". This isn't saying more than Yomis oneliners about Willz, since it's pretty obvious that anyone who thinks that anyone is townie does this based on that they think said person have acted pro-town. Instead of constructing cases on these kind of facts this early, I think it's better to save them for later. In my opinion we can't really make cases yet constructed on who voted for who and who thought who was innocent. However, if you see a pattern later in the game I think that could definetly be usefull. But right now, I think it's too vague. Note that this isn't saying that I necesserely think that Yomi is town. I still think he is more likely to be mafia than most people in the thread. He has posted very little of value, and has only started to make good posts after he was voted on. I think it's a bit wierd that he wrote so few(and mostly bad) posts early in the thread, but when he was voted on he started to post alot(he posted pretty much as much text last night(EU), as he had posted since the game began. Also, he seems pretty reasonable in his defence, and in my opinion he didn't seem very reasonable earlier. I'm hoping that he will keep up the posting, and hopefully try to do more analysis. The questions you are asking are missing the context. I was arguing with Dittert as you can clearly state about the detriment of mis-lynches. You are also looking at this in hindsight. Why did everyone jump on the Brood bandwagon for 1 really bad post when Yomi or I were still set to be lynched? Arctic made a comment on this, saying that the cases against Yomi or myself couldn't have held so much weight if so many people were willing to abandon them. Notice my wording as well, I said sacrifice, ie I wasn't going to kill him, or lynch him myself, but I would not defend him anymore if he continued to be scummy in other people's minds and created a bandwagon against himself. I would rather analyze the people who were willing to jump on a Dittert bandwagon(which was a lot of people and is a lot of people still) to see who would be the likely mafia in that case. My thing with bandwagons is also to have competing candidates, the debate between lynching Yomi or myself yesterday was good, it shows that not everyone was 100% on one person or another, making it harder for Mafia to hide. I was worried at the time Xatalos made that case that ArcticFox would be the only candidate for everyone's vote and that it was a bad case but people could still sheep it without thinking. How are we likely to gain information if 7+ people vote one person? As it stands, can you make anything out about the Brood vote? The instant majority can be explained because of his bad post, so you can't really tell if Mafia jumped on it or if it was all town, but considering Acrofales, myself, Dittert, and Trumpet never changed their vote to Brood ( or voted), you have 7 people voting the same person and 4 people not changing their vote at all for various reasons. In hindsight it would have been better to continue voting Yomi or myself to at least ascertain whether what we were saying could be verified. Instead of vig shooting Yomi as people called for, people could have shot Brood or at least saved him till the next day. Again though, this is all hindsight, and I wish I was actually around during the vote instead of giving up. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 15 2012 01:32 Xatalos wrote: I want you to explain this part right now. Your logic here is so horrible I can't even decide what to think about it. 1) If you are town, why do you want to die so badly? You can't be 100% certain I am town or 100% certain yomi is Mafia, but you CAN be 100% certain of your own alignment. So, if you actually are town and want to achieve a town victory, why would you ever want to kill the only 100% confirmed town player (yourself)? True, it would give us some new information, but killing yomi would give us equally much information. Even if you're not confident that yomi is Mafia, at the very least he is infinitely more likely to be Mafia than yourself (if you are town yourself). 2) You seem pretty hesitant about killing yomi, yet you want to get yourself killed so that you can "help my case against yomi". I don't see any kind of logic here. Besides, you flipping town wouldn't help my case against yomi especially greatly. It wouldn't make any sense for you two to be Mafia & Mafia anyway (why would yomi casually mention you are town in that case?). Your town flip wouldn't make me significantly more suspicious of yomi than I already am, and then we would have wasted our only Vigi shot on a townie who wants to get himself killed. If you are town, you are 100% confident in your own innocence, so there is zero reason to call for a Vigi shot on yourself. Overall, I don't think you are Mafia based on this, just a townie with a death wish and horrible logic. At least I can't imagine any situation where Mafia would want to get Vigi shot. My logic is that I think your case against Yomi is bad, and you have only tunneled him without looking at other people. He may be your top scum read but if you can't get a consensus from the rest of the town your read has no weight. If you really want to tunnel Yomi and continue to do so, your case relies on the fact that Yomi did not defend me sufficiently as a fellow town enough. Both myself and Yomi changed our votes in order to save ourselves, both town or Mafia would make this move. We both know for sure that our self (as in Yomi knows Yomi is town, I know I am town) so 100% read is better than a could be wrong on the other person. I think Yomi is more town than you think, but I was still willing to switch my vote to him to save myself because I know I am town. You can't use this reasoning to explain whether or not he is Mafia. Regarding my death wish, do you not see that Dittert isn't convinced of my innocence, ArcticFox still has his suspicions, and Acrofales posted the strong case against me in the first place? Thats 3/11 players left who have no inclination to believe in my towniness, meaning I have little to no credibility as town to push a Mafia even if I do find one and make a case. At best the other players see me as neutral, but probably most of them still have a scummy read to me. It would waste another day's time lynching me, the better option would be to vig shot me, even though I know I am town, because a dead townie in my position is better than a scummy looking town alive. I've stated this before when referring to Dittert, a bad town is worth sacrificing rather than keeping him alive. Case in point: BroodKingEXE, I for one don't miss him, even though he was a town, because he pretty much screwed us D1 with getting any information from either Yomi or myself's lynch. None of his filter contains any useful information, and it's his own fault he got himself lynched when he could have easily stayed silent. I don't think many people would miss me as well if I was suddenly killed by Mafia or vig shotted, so that's my logic. | ||
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United States255 Posts
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United States255 Posts
On April 15 2012 08:06 yomi wrote: I'm good to go on dittert atm. ##vote: Dittert also the afk guy was a lot more likely to be town than mafia since mafia would presumably find the game more exciting? dunno but please come out and post your thoughts on everything so far. it was very heated yesterday and a calm objective mind could really really help right now. My previous experience had a Mafia subbing in D2 for Newbie V (blubbdavid) he replaced a heavy lurker at that time as well. I think it's possible the situation has repeated itself here, we have pretty much no read on Trumpet other than lurking, his replacement has to step it up a lot to clear him from that suspicion. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 15 2012 10:20 imallinson wrote: We definitely shouldn't ditch the discussion and if a better candidate comes up we should lynch them. However, I for one am not going to let someone martyr themselves as an easy out. Can you explain the underlined part here a little better? Are you saying you will or will not let Dittert martyr himself? I have no idea what Dittert's plan is for doing this as town considering if we mis-lynch again and lose another town during the night it's going to be 5-3 D3, which is pretty much mylo for town. I can't believe I'm saying this, but can we please look at someone else besides Dittert? A lot of you have considered Yomi as the second most suspicious person in your minds (and voted him before the Broodwagon instead of me) but now are willing to go ahead and go after Dittert? Why make cases against me and Yomi in the first place if you're not going to follow through? And before you call me out Xatalos for pointing out how you tunneled Yomi, I'm not specifically going to ask you to switch back to Yomi and resume your tunneling. I'm more interested in the other players and why the majority vote today is Dittert when we have 31 hours left and no other discussion is occurring about alternate vote targets except for HiroPro's case against Xatalos. Are you all willing to gamble that Dittert is really a newb town all along and this play along with Brood's is going to make it nigh unwinnable for town if we mis-lynch? @Yomi we haven't had much of a direct interaction before, but you have supported me in the past. Why do you think I'm town so much when most everyone else thought I wasn't?(until I was about to be lynched and posted all the things I did) I can see from your filter that you've said this is also your first mafia game ever as well and that you got angry a lot against Xatalos' tunneling you, similar to how I got angry over Dittert doing the same. Is this the reason why you think I'm town as well, because we're both had similar experiences with tunneling? I really don't know what to think of you at this point, I think you're town, but everyone else seems to think you're highly suspicious, it would be good to dispel some of that by responding to this and what you think of anyone else besides Dittert and Xatalos. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 15 2012 11:13 HiroPro wrote: The Blue Shift In the beginning of the game, Xatalos made a case against ArticFox based on his discussion of blues and policy lynching. But if you look at Xatalos's posting on the first night, almost all of it is concentrated around telling blues to perform certain actions: + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 08:39 Xatalos wrote: I'm not sure if all the roles are included in this game (?), but here are some suggestions for night actions: Vigilante: yomi (this I have explained before) Jailer: Xatalos (I may not be a veteran, but at least I'm active and a threatening presence for Mafia, so I wouldn't be surprised if they chose to shoot me tonight) Detective: don't want to suggest anything for you, since there is a Framer Doctor: hmm... I don't have extreme confidence in anyone being town right now, but maybe Acrofales, vonKlaust, KharadBanar or Willz - none of them really strike me as Mafia at the moment If nothing else, this list will at least create some WIFOM to make Mafia's night actions harder. Good night! On April 14 2012 15:19 Xatalos wrote: Dittert suggested a Vigi shot on you, which I might find a good idea in other circumstances, but I'm willing to see more from you (your later play on Day 1 was very pro-town, while yomi hasn't played pro-town so far). And a yomi Vigi shot will likely give us more information than shooting you + if yomi gets lynched tomorrow anyway, it's pointless to waste a day on him rather than shooting him now. On April 14 2012 19:24 Xatalos wrote: I wonder why this thread got so silent while I was sleeping. Acrofales, Willz, I'm most interested in hearing your thoughts about the Willz/yomi/BroodKing lynch event and what should be done next (Mafia reads, town reads, anything). Do you agree with Vigi shooting yomi or not? On April 14 2012 21:07 Xatalos wrote: I hope the Jailer jails me though. It's a win-win for me: I can't die, and it's proved I am not a Mafia Goon (Roleblocker and Framer are harder to prove being roleblocked during the night, but if for example the Framer is lynched and it gets revealed later someone was roleblocked tonight, I'm already confirmed then - and even if I were to be Framer, then it is clear that the Detective's investigations can be trusted - I really can't see a reason not to jail me). I agree with the Vigilante saying out loud his target at the deadline. He only has one shot, so he's just a vanilla townie after that (no point for Mafia to roleblock him anymore) AND then he is confirmed town (unless Mafia would take a HUGE risk and pretend being Vigilante like that). Shooting yomi goes a bit against this, though, because it's easier to pretend being Vigilante now... But I definitely don't think it's worth it to shoot someone else just because of that. Blue roles work best when town doesn't know what they are going to do or who they are; the risk from mafia hits or roleblocks is too high. But yet Xatalos continued to push attempts to direct blue roles and figure out other people's opinions on their actions. When you combine this with his sudden reversal on whether or not to discuss blue roles, it's scummy as hell. The Distraction Factor When you look at Xatalos's posting, it's all over the place. Irrelevant comparisions to a previous mafia game he played, superficial reads on pretty much every person in the game, suggestions on perhaps "lynching for information", constant speculation on well "if this person is mafia/town, then...". These kind of posts appear to be pro-town, when all they really accomplish is crowding out actual analysis and arguments. Xatalos's goal isn't to find out who mafia is, it's to identify several possible candidates to lynch and then focus on the one that he thinks town would be willing to follow through on. That's why in the beginning of the game, Xatalos made numerous posts where he would declare a different primary lynch target and then along with that, provide a list of 3-4 other names who he was willing to lynch. ##Vote: Xatalos I think this case against Xatalos has merit, while I am inclined to believe that Xatalos is town for trying to offer a fellow town the solution to save himself (me changing my vote to Yomi and convincing others to do the same) He could also be Mafia and know that we were both town, and just happy with getting a mis-lynch on either of us and then skating the fallout. This part is complete WIFOM though and I don't really want to base a case around that, but it's still something to think about. Other than the WIFOM part, I agree that Xatalos rambling about blue roles is pretty unhelpful and downright malicious to town. This is a newbie game setup, I can only speculate as to what roles are actually present, but in Newbie V the only blue role present was a Medic, and we had a miller among us as well, that was it, 2 power roles out of 12 people. It is not conceivable to assume that we also only have 1-2 roles as well, instead of the many you seem to be trying to direct, especially during night. Blue roles should act independently with their own judgement and reads, telling them what to do only helps Mafia (as ArcticFox points out in his filter from arguing with Xatalos during the night) We can't learn much from Brood's filter obviously, but Arctic definitely had some good points to make, and I think he would have been fine with supporting a lynch on Xatalos based on how he acted during the night. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
1. Lynch willz: Flips red, gives town cred to Acrofales, makes Xatalos look bad, makes Yomi look bad. Flips green makes Yomi look suspicious (until he responds to as why he thinks I'm town), makes Xatalos look better (for trying to save me) 2. Lynch Yomi: Flips red, makes Willz looks bad for defending him, makes Xatalos look good for tunneling him, ArcticFox was originally against Yomi from the beginning according to his filter, something to keep in note as Arctic flipped town. Flips green, makes Willz look suspicious in how he knew Yomi was green, makes Xatalos look bad for tunneling a townie in the end. 3. Lynch Xatalos: Flips red, makes Willz/Yomi look better since he was willing to lynch either of us D1. Gives towncred to HiroPro for bringing up the case against him? ArcticFox also argued against him during the night, might have thought he was Mafia because of the constant blue talk but didn't get to make his case since he was killed off. Flips green, makes Willz/Yomi look bad, makes HiroPro look suspicious for bringing a case against him. This is in my opinion a decent summary of likely attitudes and results from the three other options besides Dittert. I really want to not leave Dittert as the vote target today unless we really have no alternative, so please comment on this. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Xatalos also made a point in that Yomi continually referred to me as town without explaining why exactly that opinion was made, and Yomi was one of the few who didn't believe in the Acrofales case when most other people did (it was a good case, regardless of if I flip mafia/town) You're also forgetting a pair in there as far as I can see, the interactions between myself and Xatalos. If we're both mafia, Xatalos has a valid reason for trying to sway the vote from me towards Yomi in order to save his teammate. I know for myself that I am town, but I cannot prove it, so we should use this lynch to see what the real relationship is (if one of is us scum) | ||
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United States255 Posts
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You say you dislike connection play because it induces WIFOM, but can you really explain the motivations between myself and Dittert without it? I'm not "soft defending Dittert" I really have no clue as to what the hell his motivations are for playing this game and posting the way he has. I am making the argument that lynching Dittert now wouldn't really give us as much information compared to lynching someone else (see the post I made with my list of outcomes) Would you not agree that lynching someone who clammed up isn't as helpful as someone who tried to push cases on a lot of people without weight? Here, just so my opinion is clear: ##Vote: Xatalos | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Hi again, guess you're not willing to let yourself die just yet after all? (What was the point of the martyrdom post then when we all suck according to you and feelings shouldn't be considered in this game?) Also helpful note, you never unvoted yourself after your martyrdom post so the bot that checks votes will still count it on yourself, so you better revote me and first do a ##Unvote:. Also considering I'm not one of the two likely lynches for this day, that vote sure will come in handy in a tiebreaker situation! Well, at least you're consistent I guess, which is something I can't say for Xatalos. However will you please answer one thing? If you like to point out lies so much, can you correct your statement here: On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). So basically, you were wrong (we were all wrong) for doubting ArcticFox, since he's the only pro-town player that has flipped. Arctic had many reasons to be suspicious of you as well, but you're going to ignore that because part of his filter mentions myself and Yomi, and that's what you want to use in your case, ignoring the part that incriminates you. So you claim to be consistent in your tunneling of me, fine, I'm assuming you've read my filter so you've seen that I've been consistent in defending you because I think you're town and that town should always try and defend other town. I could be wrong because I don't know for sure, but all your actions can be explained to either being a newb town or a scummy Mafia. Secondly, your basis on your original and continuing suspicion on me is a lie, I have never pushed for your mis-lynch, and for you to claim otherwise would be to put words in my mouth. My vote on Xatalos is pretty much shooting in the dark for his motivations for pushing Yomi and switching to myself after Acro's case and then defending me. I just like Hiro's case against him and the spam he has done so far hasn't really helped much, I am also using the reasoning that Xatalos flipping would give us more information than Dittert flipping considering Xatalos has been much more spammy and all over the place. This is not good reasoning, but then again a lot of you voted Dittert for martyring himself and now that he's back, you're willing to change all the voting. I'll be in class for most of today, back at 6pm EST to see what's happened. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I've said before that I saw HiroPro as a little suspicious, he hasn't really contributed nearly as much as other people and seems to fly under the radar, the first time I took note of him was the case he posted against Xatalos D2 that got that bandwagon started. I'm willing to admit that my read of Dittert as newb town can really be called into question now and that I may have been blinded by my willingness to see what I wanted to see based on the actions so far. I can see the connection between HiroPro and Dittert, and I'm beginning to question how townie a person would be for consistently tunneling one person all game. However, since we can only lynch one person today, which is it going to be? Dittert or HiroPro seems to be the split. If Hiro flips red it gives a lot of weight to the assumptions that Dittert is red as well. I'm still hesitant to write off Dittert(I don't know, I've held onto this opinion all game of him being newbie town, I'd be really sad to be proven wrong) so I'd prefer to vote Hiro for now and let his flip decide what I think about Dittert. So accordingly: ##Unvote: Xatalos ##Vote: HiroPro Finally, the main thing I think we need is information to either ferret out remaining scum or help clear suspicious town, this was the main reason I voted Xatalos, I felt like his flip would at least give a lot more information than a Dittert one. However with Acrofales connection reasoning, it could be possible Hiro/Dittert are both scum, but we need to lynch one of them to confirm, and Hiro flipping scum would incriminate Dittert more so than the other way around imo. | ||
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United States255 Posts
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Sigh, ok town is really fucked at this point since we're going to be at 5-3 at the end of this night. However, I'm taking a harder look at Acro, it was his lead here that got us to lynch Hiro and I know for sure I'm town and he made that case against me. It may be OMGUS on my part, but I'm willing to lynch him D3. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
However, the following players are under suspicion, myself, Xatalos, Yomi, Dittert. Any of these players being shot would not make sense in Mafia's line of thinking, we are too easy cases to push for a mis-lynch. Acro you better start posting your heart out if you think you're going to be killed off today, as I quote your lovely farewell post to Arctic: On April 15 2012 08:04 Acrofales wrote: ArcticFox: too townie to live, too quiet to get protected. He will be missed. Now people. Lets get scumhunting. ##vote Dittert Now that town has successfully killed their own doctor (/facepalm) we can probably assume that Hiro probably medic'd Acro N1 because he had the most towncred among us. There are two explanations for Arctic being shot instead, Mafia assumed there was a medic and Acro would be on the most obvious target, so they switched to target #2 Arctic, or Acro is Mafia and they knew Arctic was either on the right track or the town with the most towncred. Also I find this defense by Xatalos of Acrofales troubling. Especially the DT talk, DT cannot be claimed at this point and proven, Mafia can easily counter-claim, all you're doing is making it easier for the Mafia to bluesnipe, very untownlike. If Acro doesn't get shot tonight, there is no other explanation other than that he is Mafia, he has been too visible for a town to be left alive this long. If Acro gets shot tonight, then Xatalos is probably Mafia for trying to buddy/defend Acro so hard (I will add more on to this as night rolls over, have to head to class soon.) Don't forget Acrofales and Xatalos were both scum in GoT Mafia (which they won) so they have good experience of what to do as Mafia. They also can play 100% completely opposite of what they did in GoT because of meta arguments. They've both referenced what "Mafia should do" as part of their thinking, and then pointed out how they couldn't possibly be Mafia because they haven't done what "Mafia should do." This is flimsy reasoning, especially for a newbie game, people make mistakes and not optimal play, we've seen that numerous times in this game, trying to defend yourself by saying this is not what Mafia would do (what Xatalos has done) should not be a good defense. Also notice Xatalos trying to discredit HiroPro's last testament and will, even though he didn't manage to finish his thoughts in time, HiroPro was 100% town, and he may have been on to something. Remember what he said, ignore Xatalos and look at Acro's filter. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Secondly, here is my schedule. I am busy weekdays from 10am EST to 6PM EST with class, I have a 1hour30m commute, I have no smartphone to post on TL. I am sorry for my inactivity, it's pretty much the same reasons as what vonKlaust stated (that I am choosing to focus more on school than this) As many players are also European, this leaves me with no time to respond during key periods to when they are active compared to when I am. It's kind of hard to have a discussion when you guys are staying up late, and I can't because of schoolwork to do. Thirdly, yes I have been terrible with posting reads of likely scum, it was one of the reasons I signed up to play another newbie game, I can post in a townie manner (as most of you can attest to the beginning of D1 at least) but I fail in identifying scum, which is a crucial part of playing this game. Considering I was also the preferred lynch for D1 as well, I have posted that a lot of you still find me as suspicious and posting bad cases would only continue to make me look bad, and posting cases on people who suspected me would only reek of OMGUS and be hard to substantiate. This is defensive reasoning for why I haven't contributed, but it's the truth unfortunately. That being said, here are my reads so far for what they are worth. Funcmode, the easiest opinion to reach, I have none because he hasn't posted enough to get a real feel for, he's still a lurker but the posts he's made have been semi-helpful, so I cannot rate him anything but neutral at this point. Dittert, I don't believe that a Mafia would be so willing to tunnel a case on one player for the entire game, I think they would try and get a lynch in on a scummy looking town when they can. Yes he voted Yomi that one time, but other than that he's been consistent in targeting me. His case is also still really bad on its own, it never had any traction until a better town player came along and made the case for him, this can mean Dittert is really scum willing to let a town take the lead in a mis-lynch but this is his first game ever and I'm not sure if he would know to do that. Like I said, hard to read for me, I think he's town, others think he's mafia. Xatalos, in the beginning I thought he was town, but he has been very spammy and willing to go after everyone at one point or another. Tunneled Yomi for a long time, switched the vote to me at my lynch, and then switched back to Yomi after I "convinced him of my towniness". This feels weak to me, I know I'm town but he can't know for sure, if he was willing to lynch me I think he should have stuck to it, and I even agreed with the reasons for lynching me (hence my martyrdom) Then Hiro makes his decent case against Xatalos D2 calling out his spam and his overmention of blues (the thing he initially called Arctic out for) Xatalos was set to be lynched, but Acro came in and posted a better case on Hiro and that caused everyone to change their minds, and led Xatalos to be gleefully happy and post this: This gets me very interested in the possibility of HiroPro&Dittert&imallinson... I'll have to look how HiroPro and Dittert have talked about imallinson next! I'm actually getting pretty excited already. It's not too bad even if I die now, since the whole Mafia team has been potentially revealed. If I die and flip town, please focus your attention on these three players immediately. Don't forget to use DT/Vigi/Jailer. And heal Acrofales, I think. After we end up lynching HiroPro, he exhibits sadness but then has the bright idea to call for a DT to reveal themselves during the night when they 1) can't be verified, 2) can be counter-claimed so easily by Mafia, 3) if they do reveal themselves especially during night they can be killed off by Mafia. Did anyone really think this was a good idea? I would have expected better for Xatalos considering this is not his first mafia game and that he played scum previously and that is exactly what they want. I will make a followup post defending myself from his case as well. This is something to take note of for his behavior, please look through his filter and really think about whose scummier between us. If you want to claim OMGUS by me fine, I'm not going to defend that it's not, but look at the actions he's done compared to mine, and especially when he was the top vote candidate for D2 for the brief time he was. Was he really that helpful? imallinson Summary of events, sheeped Xatalos's case on Arctic, I called him out on it. Contributed to thread by posting a case on the lurker trumpetarn (pretty easy to do as anybody, but as Mafia builds towncred) Other than his filter has generally been very short, he has been lurking a lot, decided not to bandwagon the case Acro made against me (even though it was a good case and worth lynching me over, decides to waste his vote continuing to vote trumpetarn) Broodking makes his fuckup, imallinson conveniently comes in late when the vote's already decided and sheeps that vote. D2 rolls over, posts that he's suspicious of Dittert now, sheeps Acro's vote on Dittert beginning of D2. Changes mind to Xatalos based on scummy behavior, then changes mind to Hiro following Acro's lead. Switches back to Xatalos during the night when discussing with Acro. Seems to me like he really is following in someone else's shadows, and I don't think he's very committed to lynching Xatalos considering he's been willing to switch to Dittert or someone else when convenient. Something to think about in my mind. Yomi, I've stated it before, repeating it again, his aggressive behavior may be unpleasant, but that doesn't mean he's Mafia. I think he's tunneled several people which is a newbie town trait, and I don't think a scum would get into a rambling argument against Xatalos for that long. I could be wrong about this, but I'm focusing on trying to find one guaranteed scum, not look for connections. vonKlaust, probably town, has been helpful with most of the posts, and comes off as unsure of himself, something that Mafia wouldn't probably exhibit cause it makes them look suspicious, at least to my mind. KB, I'm still waiting for his game to step up, considering everyone gave him high praise for his play in Newbie VI. I took a look at his filter both this game and Newbie VI and while I consider him town, he needs to really step it up since we're at a mylo situation for town. This was why I was hesitant to trust in him even though its based on meta, but I'm really hoping he'll take over as town leader since Acro is dead. In summary since this is a long post. My top scum reads are 1. Xatalos, 2/3 not sure about but I'm willing to vote Dittert/imallinson at this spot if it's the only alternative. ##Vote: Xatalos | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 18 2012 04:04 Xatalos wrote: Why To Lynch Willz First Mafia slip: why would you want to kill a townie just for posting a stupid suggestion? You even say specifically that his town flip would help "weeding out the real scum"... How exactly? It's not like a bandwagon on Dittert for his stupid play and a town flip would reveal anything useful for us, especially if there would be just a bandwagon on him and nothing else during Day 1. It would be a dream come true for Mafia, not for town. This was the beginning of D1, I was calling out Dittert for his bad suggestion and continuing to defend it, compare Dittert to Brood in terms of helpfulness overall. Dittert makes a rant against us after we lynch Brood for what everyone agrees was a 100% dumb move as town and a total scumslip, then makes an emo post martyring himself when he was the #1 target D2. If you think he's town, is this really helping? Both of them are "bad town" and have been very unhelpful, Brood especially pretty much ruined D1 because at least we would have ascertained either myself or Yomi's alignment with a successful lynch, which would have been more beneficial overall! Mis-lynches happen, it's part of Mafia, but that was seriously the worst thing he could ever have done to screw town over. I'm not sad over Brood's death since he wasn't helpful, but I can be angry at him and Dittert for being useless. I've been consistently defending Dittert and he's been consistently attacking me, when this game is over I really would appreciate an apology coming from him if we're both town, it's the least he can do. In hindsight, this looks like potentially suiciding and denying additional information about Mafia connections for town. It's always better to say everything you have and prove your innocence: at the very least others will have something to discuss about next when you flip town. If you suicide as town, you just deny information and give a free kill for Mafia. If you suicide as Mafia, you protect your teammates and confuse town. [i] Are you conveniently ignoring the fact that when you told me to post what I could to be helpful that I did so? Are you really going to say my martyring myself was unhelpful for town considering the vote was 6+ at that point and I WAS AGREEING WITH YOUR REASONING TO LYNCH ME? You're acting like I did nothing but say, welp I guess I'm dead, /voteself, and left the thread. This is what Dittert did, not me, and I think this part of your case is terrible. So it's better to lynch an active poster than a lurker, regardless of what you think of our Mafia probabilities? Lurkers benefit Mafia, active posters benefit town. Just because you're an active poster doesn't give you any more credibility than a lurker. What does lynching a lurker do when they haven't commented or associated themselves with anyone else? This is the main point I was against voting Dittert in favor of you, you have commented on many people, for example, your tunneling on Yomi can give towncred to Yomi if you flip scum, alternatively it can make Yomi look more suspicious if you flip town. You act like town knows exactly who to lynch at every point, I wish it was that easy, lynching is the only method for town to reliably obtain information outside of blue roles, we can't do the same for who Mafia shoots because it's entirely WIFOM speculation as to Mafia's motives which we do not have as town. Lynching you over a lurker would give more information, don't lie and say it wouldn't. Malicious WIFOM making Acrofales look "bad" once KharadBanar or someone else with high credibility gets killed instead. Possibly a Mafia strategy to plant suspicion on Acrofales beforehand with this really weak WIFOM. This was WIFOM as to why Acro did not die N1, and don't tell me I was the only one who thought this. You have to speculate at some point as why to why certain people are being targeted and some people aren't. I already stated this to be WIFOM so calling it WIFOM isn't really a shocker. Considering Acrofales was shot, how does my WIFOM help him now since he's dead? We obviously know he's town now, can I ask you why you were defending him so hard during the night when he was only in danger from Mafia, not from town trying to lynch him? I'm in a hurry so this'll have to do, I'll be back later! Responded to this case by Xatalos, my responses are in italics. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Are you conveniently ignoring the fact that when you told me to post what I could to be helpful to town that I did so? Are you really going to say my martyring myself was unhelpful for town considering the vote was 6+ at that point and I WAS AGREEING WITH YOUR REASONING TO LYNCH ME? You're acting like I did nothing but say, "welp I guess I'm dead, /voteself" and left the thread. This is what Dittert did, not me, and I think this part of your case is terrible. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 18 2012 11:23 Dittert wrote: I'm going to do what the good doctor ordered: ##Vote: Xatalos You were consistent in voting me D2 over anyone else, why the sudden willingness to abandon that behavior, especially since Acro told everyone to consider me the lynch for D3? You've switched before when you've seen that my lynch was possible, why aren't you doing this now? I am baffled by your behavior and would like an explanation for this please. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
First off, making good cases isn't necessarily indicative of good play (see Acrofales a flipped town making the case that lynched our own doctor HiroPro? Yeah that went well) We can all agree that Acro made a good case on Hiro, which is why we all supported it, but it ended up screwing town over a lot in hindsight. Do you really think it's easy to build cases against Mafia when you have low credibility and you are incurring claims of OMGUS every time you try to point something out? I had upwards of 6+ votes at one point, it's obviously mathematically impossible to say that only Mafia voted me, fellow town also did. I'm trying to read through the logic and see where the real Mafia are, but I am stuck with defending Dittert and myself, giving me no time to push my reads. Also I'm in this newbie game along with all of you, and my only full game was Newbie V where we lost as town (and I was wrong about the last Mafia). I was killed off N2 in Aperture and did not really participate much in that either, saying I'm such a good player is really a stretch, I've also never referred to myself as a good player, I only stated that I believed my opinion should have more weight than Dittert's because this is his first game and I at least have played before and understand the game better. Do I think I'm a better player than Dittert? Sure, but at this point that's not really saying much is it? (Sorry Dittert, nothing personal) Especially comparing our martyrdom situations, I at least continued to be active and post while I was the majority vote, Dittert saw himself as the majority vote and clammed up without providing any other useful information. Brood did the same thing with his scumslip and not even posting anything useful by the time he died. Both these actions were considered scummy enough to lynch for, but now you're lynching me for behaving the exact opposite way? Second, lets move on to Xatalos's continuing to claim that I was unhelpful to town when I attempted to suicide D1. I am quoting our "conversation" when I was on the chopping block D1. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 02:55 Xatalos wrote: Hmm.. I can see where you're coming from. It's reasonable you would get angry as a townie when someone keeps tunneling on you for 30+ hours with bad reasoning. A big part of why I agreed to vote for you was your refusal to share your opinions on (pretty much) anyone, and now you have done so, which decreases my will to lynch you. If I was Mafia and in such a situation as you are in now, I would just create chaos and not give away any new information to town, but you have made some very reasonable posts although your lynch seems likely. Keep posting, I'm already almost ready to consider another lynch target at this point. Even if you do get lynched regardless, if you flip town after that, everything you say now will carry great weight tomorrow. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 02:27 willz22912 wrote: @vonKlaust That is a fair point, I should have not have been a hypocrite, I was worried that if I jumped the gun on my case and my suspicions too early, the Mafia would have enough time to coordinate a defense of it. In my mind this made sense, but I can see where everyone else thinks that it's hypocritical, which it is, but it's really too late to argue. I am posting my reads now, but if it's not going to sway you, it's not going to sway you. I fully accept that I over-reached and was too aggressive and now I am getting lynched for it. I may disagree with the basis, but I understand why it has come. I will continue to poke holes in people's logic for why they are voting me in an attempt to save myself, but it's mostly so the rest of the town can see who's scum and hiding on my bandwagon. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 02:33 willz22912 wrote: Xatalos, you may agree with the case against me, but please correct this statement here: I still don't want to lynch Dittert, I still believe he is a newbie town and he will be very chagrined by the alignment I flip. I did not really start the OMGUS war, because I see that the original basis for Dittert's case against me was that he thought I was trying to start a mis-lynch on him because of his rng-proposal. Technically, he has started the OMGUS war all along. I only got angry about it, which has led to my downfall. You even state here that it's (somewhat weak) accusations. I did try to address them, but it was mostly about specific posts I made (out of many) that he found suspicious. He never made a solid case against me, I just wanted him to stop. If you are willing to lynch me because I became overly defensive when it came to a first time forum player continuing to attack me with what everyone agrees is poor logic, that's fine, but realize that I still don't think that Dittert is Mafia, and when I flip, please don't lynch him first, go after the others on my bandwagon. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 03:16 willz22912 wrote: Can you be more specific about what you want me to explain? Acrofales case is really long and I don't know what exactly you're looking for. I'd like to be as transparent as I can even if I still die, because I know this will help town. Please respond with what you wish to know and I will answer as best I can. I can already say that I have not played nearly as well as I thought, and I agree with my hypocrisy in calling for transparency yet holding onto my own opinions. Other than that part of his post, I was overly defensive against Dittert because he wouldn't leave me alone, that got me angry and asking him why he keeps insisting that I'm Mafia without reinforcing his case when I asked him what I have done to draw his suspicions. Wouldn't you be annoyed at someone if they were saying you were calling for their mis-lynch when I did nothing of the sort, and that was the basis of his original argument and the one he just used? That is a flat out lie, yet he seems to not realize it himself, then he goes on about how his RL is important and he has no time to play this game as much as others. Fine, RL obviously takes precedence, but that means in his limited time playing Mafia, he won't switch off accusing me constantly, he won't look at anyone else, but I can't call him out on it because he doesn't have enough time, that's part of why I was angry as well. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 03:54 willz22912 wrote: You need to look at the math I already posted. I am dead by voting, but that doesn't mean I'm not posting. My alignment flip will show the town that I really was green all along, and that the people pushing my case made a mistake. I'm not going to convince anyone I'm not Mafia until then, but I know I have been right all along. Don't say that I'm content with my fate and that is an admission to not being able to explain myself. I already stated why I'm already dead, I could just shut up entirely and not contribute but I'm not doing that am I? Acrofales, Dittert, BroodKingEXE are three votes that won't switch for various reasons, that means I won't be able to save myself even if I wanted to, so I'm not even going to try and waste time trying to change the vote, and I'm trying to be as productive as I can until I get lynched. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 04:03 willz22912 wrote: Would building a case against someone else convince you to not vote me? Then why should I bother building another case when I believe you're really Mafia? I've already stated my suspicions are on HiroPro (mostly for lurking), imallinson (for readily following Xatalos, although he has rebutted this, and I'm not so sure of this) and KharadBanar, who I feel is under-performing considering how he played in Newbie VI. His explanation for this is that he needs time to ramp up and his D1 isn't very good. Yomi: I feel he was overly defensive, a trait that newbie town usually display (he also posted this was his first game as well) He thinks Dittert is still Mafia, which I don't agree with, but that doesn't make him Mafia in my eyes. Still newbie town to me. Dittert: I feel he is going to be unhappy with himself when I flip green, but hopefully the town won't lynch him in response. He tunneled me and he played poorly as town, but that still means he's town in my mind. Xatalos: I feel the most town vibe from him for his willingness to at least start discussion with his case on ArcticFox, but he needs to step up his game since he has experience from GoT Acrofales: Also played in GoT Mafia, probably one of the more experienced newbs, have a good town vibe about him, his case against me is not without cause, and has good logic in it. I cannot blame him for reaching his conclusions because it was my own mistakes he pointed out. vonKlaust: Newbie town, pretty indecisive but without malicious intent, needs to be more assertive and stand by his opinions. Probably town in my eyes. Trumpetarn: Lurking the most out of anyone, probably newbie town with the way he entered the conversation and how he presented himself. Anything else I need to post? + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 04:07 willz22912 wrote: @ Xatalos You may be right about Yomi, but I feel it's most beneficial for town at this point to confirm my lynch and get the information from my flip to decide about others. If you are right, then when I flip green, your case on Yomi is stronger because of it. If you leave me alive and we lynch Yomi instead and he flips green as well (which I still think is possible), then you have no choice but to lynch me next and then we have 2 mis-lynches in a row. It's better to have me martyr myself for town than to try and save me at this point. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 04:31 willz22912 wrote: @ ArcticFox Read Xatalos' argument, it makes sense. If yomi was Mafia and he knew I was the likely lynch target, and he knows I'm really town, he can post that in his defense freely without giving too much away, it gains him credibility. The only reason he would post that without any other support is if he had inside knowledge I think Yomi is newbie because he's tunneling Dittert for the same reason Dittert is tunneling me. Do you think Dittert is Mafia for posting the original case against me and trying to lynch me? How is this any different from Yomi against Dittert? They're both newb towns tunneling everyone. I read through Acrofale's case on me and I see the logic in it because I'm reading an unbiased version of my accounts from a different perspective. I cannot argue against it, it makes sense, I suppose he could be Mafia making an easy case because of previous circumstance (Dittert/BroodKingEXE responses to me) but that's up to you to figure out since I won't be around now will I? What do you want me to do, save myself by changing my vote to Yomi? And what happens if he flips red, all is forgiven and everyone will overlook my behavior? What happens if he flips green, then how do I explain myself? I'm in a lose-lose situation personally, and the best thing I can do for town is let my lynch go through and flip green to prove I was town. These are all the posts I made when I was getting lynched and trying to still be helpful to town. This is also what convinced numerous people to switch off my case, including Xatalos, again a mathematical impossibility that all of you who switched are Mafia, some have to be town in there as well. If you think I'm good enough to lynch D3 now over Xatalos because of my WIFOM post about Acro during the night, what do you think of Xatalos' behavior in the meantime? You're going to say this is one of the good reasons why I should be lynched? Because I haven't provided town with good enough information, and I act constantly defensive because I have to constantly defend myself? I'm sorry but it's pretty true, it's hard to put up good cases under pressure, I can quote a post by Acrofales mentioning this. The two choices for D3 are either myself or Xatalos. Xatalos has provided town with good information where? Tunneling Yomi for so long, spamming the thread, arguing about blue roles and what they should be doing to Acro and Arctic, telling the DT to claim during N2 for no reason, buddying Acrofales so hard during the night phase of all times? We've both played terribly as town, the only debate as to who to lynch should obviously be who is more likelier to be scum since this is mylo and if we mislynch we lose. We're not going to have differing arguments as well to convince the rest of town, I think Xatalos is scummier, Xatalos thinks I am scummier, this doesn't really help town pick, but just clutters up the thread unless we're willing to speculate as to the other members of the Mafia team, which we are both unwilling to do because we both disagree on who they are and we have to guarantee a mafia lynch today no matter what in order to keep the game going as town. I've made my case against Xatalos supported by Hiro's previous case of his behavior and Xatalos's actions. Xatalos has made his case against me supported by Acrofales previous case against me and the reads he made during his last night alive as well as my actions. We are pretty evenly matched in scumminess in my honest opinion, I'm leaving the rest of the town to decide our fate, but I'm willing to answer any questions other than from Xatalos in order to keep the discussion going. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 18 2012 12:34 yomi wrote: So you were afraid to post because it would make you look guilty. But when you were up on the chopping block you were willing to sacrifice yourself to give us the "connection" info that your flip would give us. At one point you are willing to engage in fearless town play, and at another trying to avoid suspicion at all costs. How can you reconcile these two positions? This is a fair point. When I decided to suicide myself, I had posted pretty much everything I could to be helpful, and I was agreeing with Xatalos' logic upon you defending me with no substantiation, something which you still haven't done. My flip would have shown that Dittert could be possible scum for tunneling a townie all game, or that you were Mafia as well because of how you buddied me and kept saying you thought I was town without backing it up with why. However, that was the D1 lynch, town can afford two mis-lynches, three in a row causes the game to be over, which is why I ramped up my defense as the game went on. I know I am town, I cannot afford to let my lynch go through now because we would lose the game. In the past, you've criticized Xatalos for spamming the thread and posting suspicion on 9/12 players in the entire game, do you find this transparent behavior by him better and more town-like? I have been attempting to be more transparent where I can, but I don't have the time with my school schedule to sit around and keep reading through the entire thread trying to overthink single words and phrases like Xatalos has done to try and prove my scumminess, ie "the town has lynched their doctor" instead of "our doctor," is a scumslip in his eyes" You used to consider me highly town, and Xatalos highly scummy, do you still hold this opinion, and please explain if you've changed your mind what did it? You haven't really posted much about the Xatalos/Willz vote started except for this. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Others, I'm just having a hard time understanding what exactly you want from us. Do you want me to post my other scum reads besides Xatalos? I will and have done so in the past 24 hours, so what is the point? This is the last lynch we will get as town, if we mis-lynch we lose the game, we need to guarantee a lynch goes through on everyone we can agree is Mafia, either myself or Xatalos, there are no other candidates so asking for other reads seems pretty counter-intuitive unless you want to try a hand at connection play (which made Acro decide that Hiro was aligned with Dittert and imallinson and got him lynched.) I'm also curious by the fact that none of you ever brought up the point I made about Xatalos mentioning a DT claim during the night and how even Acrofales thought that was a really dumb idea and anti-town. Why would any town think up that plan, why is everyone ignoring this, especially imallinson when he decided to vote me instead of Xatalos? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
The Mafia team is probably Dittert, Xatalos, imallinson They know this mis-lynch is the last one they need to perform, so they are going all out to cause confusion, notice how 4 people (Yomi, KharadBanar, vonKlaust, funcmode) haven't yet voted and we have 6 hours till deadline. Then all this confusion conveniently before the last major vote by town? Yeah I'm not buying it and neither should you. Dittert claiming DT, now of all moments when the vote should have been between Xatalos or myself? Causing confusion, now he's creating a new lynch candidate with his trumped up case against KharadBanar. His DT checks also make no sense combined with his tunneling of me, why not check me D1 and then make your case against me D2 to get rid of me if you find me suspicious and you're the DT? Why check Arctic of all people (and breadcrumb) and then KharadBanar, this logic makes no sense. The explanation in my mind is that Dittert is Mafia and knows they were going to kill Arctic all along N1, and breadcrumbed that to throw everyone off and give weight to this later DT claim. Also notice this post by him: On April 19 2012 14:15 Dittert wrote: 4 votes will lynch somebody, and they have 3 votes. All they need is for one townie to be up for debate and they can gang up for the win. Since we already have Willz and Xat going at each other, it seems likely that at least one of them is town. Assuming both of them have at least one townie vote near the deadline tomorrow, we lose. The mafia will switch to the town member and they will win. The only way this play makes even a little sense as mafia is if Willz and Xat are both scum as well and I'm trying to get them both off the chopping block. That doesn't make sense either, given the fact that: 1) I have been going after Willz aggressively the entire game. That's a pretty long con - all to set up this highly unlikely endgame scenario...? 2) Willz and Xat are going back and forth now, which would mean they're double bussing. 3) I was the first to vote for Xat on D3, meaning I'm bussing a teammate yet again. 4) If you don't believe me, isn't the person you're most likely to lynch me? In that case, we would still lose a mafia member. If you don't believe me and you don't lynch me, you're just not thinking clearly. I'm either right or mafia. [red]There is no guarantee that Mafia won't change votes at the last minute if 1 town falls for it and votes for KharadBanar, just like what Dittert is saying, to force the mis-lynch and win the game. Also tunneling me this long is good to look "newbie" and also create a link between myself and Dittert in everyone's mind, distracting people from looking at other possible scum (I've helped this a lot with my assertion that Dittert has been newb town all along, well either he's the most amazing newbie ever with the worst DT logic that knows how to breadcrumb, or the reality that I now see, he really is Mafia) Xatalos is scum because he has gone out of his way to vote me D3 (as he should, since we're the two likely candidates) but happens to conveniently switch to Dittert because imallinson convinced him to even though he made this post just before? However, I'd rather lynch Willz before Dittert. Dittert's last post is pretty much him claiming Mafia, but Willz is hugely more nefarious and might even convince town to lynch someone else in the endgame situation. Dittert, on the other hand, just keeps digging his own grave by fake claiming to protect Willz. Well we probably need to come to a consensus on who to lynch and the terrible DT claim makes me more sure Dittert is scum than Willz. I'd say Dittert is 95% scum Willz 90%. So in my eyes we should go for Dittert. Also if we are sure Willz is scum it's easy enough to ignore his posts. Alright, I can see your point. In order to win this game, we need to lynch one Mafia right now, and indeed Dittert is even slightly more suspicious than Willz at the moment. And Dittert flipping Mafia will make Willz 99% Mafia as well, so no need to worry about Willz talking his way out of this again. ##Unvote ##Vote: Dittert Note the second post, even if the vote goes through on Dittert and he flips red, Xatalos conveniently leaves this post to further incriminate me so that I will be lynched even if this plan doesn't work, really good thinking by a Mafia to do. Why would town set someone else up to be the next lynch just based on connection play? I believe this is a bus attempt by Xatalos and imallinson to both gain credit from Dittert's flip as well as to further set up my mis-lynch the following day. I do not believe these votes on Dittert will stick if they get lucky and one town votes for another town inadvertently. imallinson I'm not as confident as I am in this read because it's mostly based on connection play between him and Xatalos and his interactions with Dittert. I remember him subtly trying to support Xatalos early on against Arctic and then sheeped both the vote on Dittert, the vote on Xatalos, and the vote on Hiro D3 without any substantiation. His latest antics here make no sense from a town POV. Town doesn't know exactly who's Mafia or who's town, they can only use connection play after someone has already flipped to justify their case, going 1 by one. However imallinson posts this: On April 19 2012 17:23 imallinson wrote: #3: "THE MAFIA DON'T NEED TO FAKE DT CLAIM TO WIN." This is just wrong. If it looked like one scum member was going to get lynched then fake claiming DT is an excellent move. If we have no DT then it's an easy way to lynch one of the best town players. If we do then you have a decent chance to convince the town to lynch their own DT. Seeing as Xatalos was suspicious of your claim right away I don't think he is your scum buddy. It fits nicely if Willz is however. #4: This is what I think is the most damning evidence against your claim. Why if you knew Kharad was scum would you vote for Xatalos? This makes me think you decided to fake claim after you saw Willz in trouble. There isn't any other explanation for this. I think this makes you look insanely scummy and it makes Willz look like your scum buddy. However you are the more obvious lynch at the moment. ##Unvote ##Vote: Dittert So because Xatalos is around and active, and posts faster than I am that he's suspicious of Dittert's DT claim, imallinson dismisses the possibility that Dittert and Xatalos are connected? How does that work when you were talking during the night and post this: On April 18 2012 07:45 imallinson wrote: @vonKlaust Acrofales already asked me to provide my top 3 minus the connection to Xatalos. It was #1: Xatalos #2: Dittert #3: Willz Although at this point I'd probably swap Dittert and Willz. imallinson says Xatalos, Dittert, and myself are his top scum reads. However he decides to vote me instead of Xatalos D3 with no weight to his opinion, but when Dittert makes his fake DT case, he assumes it's to only save his teammate Willz, and ignores Xatalos completely? Why would you as town ignore any possibility? Here is my point: imallinson was suspicious of Xatalos, but because Xatalos didn't believe in Dittert's fakeclaim, he finds that not suspicious and thinks I'm more likely to be Mafia in association No town should be convinced that easily, if a town's had consistent suspicions of someone, he is not likely to have them go away so suddenly, this is why I believed Dittert to be town, because he was at least consistent in tunneling me, contrast that with Xatalos' behavior, he has called out numerous people and is all over the place with his suspicions until finally he settles on me, but now this latest move by Dittert convinces both Xatalos and imallinson to switch off their initial vote candidate willz22912 to kill Dittert instead? Why aren't they just ignoring the fake DT claim because they don't believe it and continuing to vote me? Didn't Xatalos say I was the most dangerous Mafia here: On April 18 2012 15:39 Xatalos wrote: This is the deciding moment: if Willz is lynched, Mafia loses one member and the rest of Mafia are much easier to trace (Funcmode&Dittert?). If I'm lynched, town loses instantly. Read the filters of Willz and Acrofales, and choose town victory by voting for Willz. And here: Willz's defense is good, but if he's the Mafia leader, it would make sense. Everyone also keeps saying the Mafia team is good, which means they have superior argumentation skills (the average Mafia is more skilled than the average town in this game). I don't think I can beat Willz straight-on with logic and argumentation, but I'll try breaking his defense later when I have more time. Although I have more confidence in you than myself making him slip his defense right now... For now, I ask everyone to think about this: Willz is clearly one of the most skilled players in this game, yet his almost only pro-town contribution so far is his weak and forced case against BroodKingEXE. Does that make any sense for a town player? And here: You bring up a lot of good points, imallinson. I don't really think you're Mafia anymore... Why would you bus both of your teammates this hard in that case? Right now my conclusion is this: A) Willz is certainly Mafia B) Dittert is certainly Mafia C) Funcmode is probably Mafia However, I'd rather lynch Willz before Dittert. Dittert's last post is pretty much him claiming Mafia, but Willz is hugely more nefarious and might even convince town to lynch someone else in the endgame situation. Dittert, on the other hand, just keeps digging his own grave by fake claiming to protect Willz. Also note the highlighted part in red for this quote, considering I believe the Mafia team to be imallinson, Xatalos, Dittert This is exactly what they are doing, bussing Dittert in order to look Xatalos and imallinson look better. Also notice the three times Xatalos has believed me to be more of a danger than anyone else, and should be lynched first, but now he's willing to lynch Dittert because he fake-claimed DT? Why shouldn't I still be the lynch target? If I flip red like imallinson and Xatalos thinks, that gives more weight to Dittert being Mafia as well, not the other way around, especially since I'm the more dangerous Mafia no? All this is doing is discrediting me further, but not actually lynching me, this makes no sense from a town perspective. If you think a player is Mafia, you try and lynch them, not save them for later. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 20 2012 02:03 Xatalos wrote: Come on: yomi, vonKlaust, KharadBanar. Now is the time to express your opinions (me vs Willz, Dittert's DT claim). There's only 6(?) hours left and half of the players have been just lurking all this time. I put it as a bonus credibility for imallinson to be as active and direct as he has been for today. On the other hand, my town reads are starting to drop a bit for those who have been just lurking and avoiding expressing their opinions. KharadBanar, you said you wanted to observe before explaining your opinions, but there isn't much time left anymore - you should tell what you think, especially about the apparent red check against you. Oh look, further separation between Xatalos and imallinson. First imallinson thinks Xatalos is not the Mafia teammate of Dittert because Xatalos was able to call out how bad Dittert's fakeclaim was, and that clearly removes all suspicion. Next we have Xatalos saying imallinson gets bonus points for being active today? So it's okay to not contribute as much every other day, but for today only, it's super special Xatalos +towncred to be active? What is this nonsense, really. I am not changing my vote to Dittert and jumping on this bandwagon. I think Xatalos is the correct choice (and should have been for every other town), town needs to lynch 1 Mafia guaranteed today, and I still think Xatalos is the best choice for a lynch today to do that. I am town, we lynch Mafia 1 by 1, we don't come up with crazy connection plays and then try and not lynch the most obvious Mafia target, that makes no sense. We lynch a Mafia, and then look at his filter for connections AFTER we know for sure his alignment. All this connection play before confirming alignment is not town play because town doesn't know for sure 100% what everyone elses alignment is, and connection play is only good for Mafia to use by mis-lynching through guilt by association. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Why not lynch me now? You think we're both Mafia anyway, what's the difference or problem? (Is it because you can't convince other town to follow through now, but you can when you bus your teammate, since I've already associated myself with Dittert so strongly?) | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Dittert: 4 (yomi, imallinson, Xatalos, KharadBanar) KharadBanar: 1(dittert) Xatalos: 1 (willz22912) | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I'm pretty unhappy right now with all of you(including town) being so ready to decide when we have time until deadline still, at least read my post and see if that makes sense. I have no class today so I'll be around to talk to. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
There are 5 town alive, 3 mafia alive. Everyone is coming up with 25% because you're not going to count yourself as not-town(scumslip) so theres only 4 other town. Claiming chance of dt is 1/7 is wrong because there are 3 mafia still in the game and they cannot be DT obviously. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
He claims that KB is scum, but we cannot verify his claim, therefore he gives us two choices, either voting Dittert(helping the bus and giving Xatalos/imallinson further towncred) or voting KharadBanar. If any town votes another town by accident, the 3 Mafia can make a coordinated last minute switch to force the mis-lynch. This is the best play Mafia could have done for D3, and I applaud them for making it, but I'm not falling for it. I'm ignoring Dittert's claim and so should you. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Lynching Dittert when he's potentially getting bussed by his teammates is not the best town play we can make right now, either you believe my reasoning and lynch Xatalos, or you should lynch me because you believe Dittert is making a last second play to save me. However, how is Dittert making this claim "saving me" when he's tunneled me all game and I have defended him as well, creating an obvious connection between us. He also does nothing to deter suspicion from me, according to Xatalos if Dittert flips Mafia I should be the next obvious lynch anyway, how does this make sense if we're both Mafia, this is the worst plan ever if he's trying to deter attention from me to him, if anything he is creating MORE suspicion upon me so I become easier to mis-lynch D4. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 20 2012 03:47 Dittert wrote: A final thought before I leave for work: The whole game, everyone's two biggest town reads have been Acro and KB. Acro is dead, but KB is not. What's even more confusing is that it would be very easy to lead a case against Acro on D3, given that he lead the mislynch charge against HiroPro on D2. If KB is the top town read, why hasn't he been shot? Why shoot AFox (who was mediocre at best) and Acro (who could have easily been mislynched)? Really pointless WIFOM. If you all called me scummy for giving WIFOM about why Acrofales wasn't shot N1 and that I thought he was going to be shot N2 or otherwise he would be Mafia, then what do you make of this post. It's also equally scummy, he's not even trying very hard to push his case on KB, something that a real DT would be frantically trying to do (because DT's can be confused with Mafia so easily) On April 20 2012 03:50 Dittert wrote: @Willz - I could not wait another day to make this claim, as if we lynched you tonight there is no other day. You could have continued your vote on Xatalos and let the town decide between Xatalos and myself, instead you created all this confusion. No, you're creating confusion on purpose and getting bussed by your teammates. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Dittert's DT claim is fake but he's giving towncred to both Xatalos and imallinson by being bussed. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 20 2012 03:51 willz22912 wrote: Please town, for the love of god ignore this bus, vote Xatalos, and if he flips Mafia, then the game goes on and we can easily verify my claims of the scum-team from the 100% confirmation we get from his flip. Especially KB, if you are town and Dittert is making his case up then you don't need to vote him this minute and can ignore him, choose between lynching myself or Dittert like the original D3 was going to be. Lynching Dittert when he's potentially getting bussed by his teammates is not the best town play we can make right now, either you believe my reasoning and lynch Xatalos, or you should lynch me because you believe Dittert is making a last second play to save me. However, how is Dittert making this claim "saving me" when he's tunneled me all game and I have defended him as well, creating an obvious connection between us. He also does nothing to deter suspicion from me, according to Xatalos if Dittert flips Mafia I should be the next obvious lynch anyway, how does this make sense if we're both Mafia, this is the worst plan ever if he's trying to deter attention from me to him, if anything he is creating MORE suspicion upon me so I become easier to mis-lynch D4. I wrote a sentence wrong in the first paragraph, the sentence should be "choose between lynching myself or Xatalos like the original D3 was going to be." | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I am calling for all the real town to vote Xatalos instead now, including KB, to show that Dittert was being bussed by his teammates Xatalos and imallinson. The game is going to go on regardless if Dittert gets bussed by his teammates, the only information we will get is who gets shot N3, but gleaning information based on who Mafia shoot is completely WIFOM for town. What do we get by guaranteeing Dittert's lynch, he flips scum but he doesn't incriminate anyone else except for me. If we lynch Xatalos we gain so much more information because this incriminates Dittert (because he was being bussed by Xatalos/imallinson) and to a large degree imallinson for their coordination. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
@funcmode, Dittert's last post is speculation, as is mine for what Mafia intend to do. However I at least have given weight to my statements to convince you to support me, what has Dittert done to convince anyone he is really the DT? Nothing. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
If you think Dittert flipping scum would give weight to me being his teammate and grounds for a lynch D4, then you have your proof right now and can get rid of me instead first. Dittert's post all but incriminates us together, lynch me now then instead of lynching him. If you think my case against Xatalos has any merit, and can see that what I'm saying about Xatalos bussing Dittert his scum teammate, then vote him instead and when he does flip, you can see his true intentions, which is so much more information than what lynching Dittert would provide for town. If town gets a choice in lynching two almost certain Mafia, town should lynch the Mafia that would give town more information, since we can only lynch one at a time and we are not completely certain of a person's alignment until they flip, unlike Mafia who already know who their enemies are. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
The dynamic of voting hasn't changed, I just put pressure on imallinson and Xatalos to explain why they aren't changing their vote to me now instead of staying on Dittert. If Dittert gets lynched instead and flips scum, then D4 will be the same thing, the deciding lynch to continue the game between myself and Xatalos. In an effort to stop repeating this cycle because it is distracting town, I am trying to get rid of Xatalos now so we can figure out the other scum. Remember Xatalos' argument, he wants to lynch Dittert to incriminate me, and was willing to vote me before Dittert fake-claimed, and is willing to lynch me after Dittert, but won't lynch me now? As it stands, Dittert's vote on KB is a throwaway one and won't decide things (unless he lies and changes it last minute but that can't be helped) That leaves 7 players to decide the vote leaving the votecount right now as: Dittert(3): Yomi, Xatalos, imallinson KharadBanar(1): Dittert Xatalos(2): willz22912, KharadBanar vonKlaust, funcmode will decide the vote either way, we need both of them to vote for Xatalos since Dittert is still the first person with 3 votes and will be the decided lynch unless we get 4 on Xatalos. Add something else untownlike to Dittert's play, doesn't convince anyone very well with his case against KB, and then proceeds to waste his vote, making it harder for town to lynch successfully | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 20 2012 05:05 imallinson wrote: @Willz The problem I'm having with voting for Xatalos is that Dittert is my # 1 scum read due to what I think is a fake DT claim. You are my # 2 and Xatalos is # 3. While I agree that info tomorrow would be nice, actually getting there is better. On April 20 2012 05:17 imallinson wrote: I guess it's down to who hits 4 votes first. Seeing as the Dittert thing has lost all steam, I'm going to trust you because your judgement seems sound. ##Unvote ##Vote: Xatalos Just some forwarning. I'm not going to be around if you decide to change. I've taken some strong painkillers and am now going to pass out. Sorry if this post is a bit short and incoherent. So basically, he says Dittert is his #1 scumread for his fake-claim and Dittert is also the leading lynch candidate with 3 votes, but now he's willing to switch and support me because my judgement seems sound, except for the fact that imallinson says himself that he thinks I'm more scummier than Xatalos in his mind. I have put imallinson as the 3rd scummiest/member of the scum team in mind (after Xatalos at #1 and Dittert at #2 now for his DT case) Anyone else want to make sense of this, I would like an objective opinion on how this looks to all of you. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Isn't taking the easy out and jumping on someone for making 1 scummy post how town has gotten here to this shitty situation in the first place? (Brood making that awful post, instant lynch in <20m), Hiro coming out and Acro making a single case against him with 1 hour before deadline(when I, Xatalos, Yomi all were more suspicious overall in that game) convincing 7 of us to vote him making town lynch their own doctor. You made your case to convince the rest of the town to lynch me, I did the same to lynch you. However one post by Dittert let's you drop everything and vote him instead? I kept asking you why you would do such a thing when it only adds more weight to your case against me, why didn't you just stick to voting me and ignoring Dittert's fake DT claim if you think he's Mafia. If you think Dittert is Mafia, why did you put so much stock into a fake DT claim? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 20 2012 05:47 yomi wrote: You are saying if xat is mafia ditt is also mafia, but if ditt is mafia xat could still potentially be town? Where did I say that Xat could potentially be town if Ditt is Mafia? Of course anyone in this game could be town, I am not a DT, I cannot confirm with 100% certainty anyone's alignment until he flips, but I believe Xatalos and Dittert are both Mafia. So you've clearly been around and reading the thread because you posted this, but you haven't posted any of your reasoning (including why you thought I was town for so long) Care to finally jump in since its 2 hours before deadline? You are lurking super hard right now and you also jumped on Dittert's lynch very quickly. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
If you want people to vote me, then fine continue on as you have been (unhelpful and spamming the thread in your defense) and change your vote. If you want people to consider voting Dittert who we both agree is Mafia for his fake DT claim, convince them. If you convince enough people (I won't switch) then that's equally acceptable to me, it's still a Mafia that dies and lets town continue the game, but doesn't defend prove anything or increase your towncred since you still have to explain your behavior today. I will also be held accountable to this if I survive to D4. Then we resume the beginning of D3 all over again, you want to vote me, I want to vote you. The choice is yours. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 20 2012 05:31 willz22912 wrote: So basically, he says Dittert is his #1 scumread for his fake-claim and Dittert is also the leading lynch candidate with 3 votes, but now he's willing to switch and support me because my judgement seems sound, except for the fact that imallinson says himself that he thinks I'm more scummier than Xatalos in his mind. I have put imallinson as the 3rd scummiest/member of the scum team in mind (after Xatalos at #1 and Dittert at #2 now for his DT case) Anyone else want to make sense of this, I would like an objective opinion on how this looks to all of you. Since Xatalos likes posting old posts to defend himself, I'm re-quoting this so I can start a discussion, can someone take a look at what I posted here please. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Why vote me instead if you believe Dittert's claim (and do you think I'm also town considering Dittert is not willing to vote me anymore and he's a DT?) | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
It's not fun trying to make a case while under pressure isn't it? Considering I felt the same way D1 and the beginning of D3, I sympathize, but now you can't really use that argument too huh? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:48 KharadBanar wrote: He isn't considering Dittert's check to be real, he considers it to be very likely fake but you even more likely mafia. Even though I don't agree with him as much as he'd probably like, my opinion has since swung again in favour of him because you haven't been quite as active in saving me as I originally thought. I was responding to Xatalos' point here: On April 20 2012 06:42 Xatalos wrote: At this point, I'm even ready to consider the possibility that Dittert's claim was actually genuine, but you abused his going AFK and turned it somehow into lynching me. Why do I think it might have been genuine? A) KharadBanar was praised a lot from his previous game. B) In this game, KharadBanar has been mostly sheeping and using horrible logic, not actively pushing much of anything. In that case, the only good option now would be to lynch Willz (since Dittert wouldn't be Mafia after all). He possibly believes in Dittert's DT claim, which would mean KB is Mafia, however instead of going with that, he continues to vote me? Whats the point of citing a DT claim then? As for not defending you nearly as much as you thought I did, sure since you never really were in danger of being lynched, but Dittert was just creating confusion. You're entitled to your own thoughts, but I think I have been clear in my points while Xatalos has been spamming, but if that's enough to convince you, vote Dittert then and convince everyone else if you think his claim is fake. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
We have to have 4 votes, I only need 2 more on Xatalos to guarantee his lynch, if you want to switch to Dittert, it looks like Xatalos isn't willing to switch back (or is he going to waffle again?) | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
If either of you have any further questions, just please take a look at Xatalos' filter for the last couple of pages, his logic is all over the place. He says he possibly believes in Dittert's DT case against KB (ergo KB is 100% Mafia checked by a DT) but decides to vote me instead? D3 he was all for voting me and it was at a 2-2 standoff, but then Dittert came in with his DT claim, Xatalos switches to Dittert, but now he switches back to me (even though if he doesn't believe Dittert's fakeclaim that means Dittert is 100% Mafia and by his own previous reasoning, was the justification to lynch Dittert over me today) | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Also nothing personal from anything I've said to anyone, it's just a game but it's easy to put your emotions into it when you spend so much time on it. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
My apologies to town, Dittert claiming DT when he did should have resulted in either lynching Dittert or KB, one of the two HAS to be lying, and I was suspicious of KB because like I said, I saw him in Newbie VI and he was doing nothing similar to that here. I was actually willing to switch to KB at some point because people kept bringing up Dittert's claim being possibly true, but Xatalos kept insisting I was Mafia nothing would have convinced him in my mind, and I had my reasons for thinking he was Mafia as well. Any advice appreciated, I really bungled this game, need to back off Mafia for a bit. I knew Dittert had to be town but his behavior especially as DT was so erratic all game that I couldn't keep that line of thinking without going WHY? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Also very sad that my intention in this last newbie game was to play really well and I did the exact opposite, "4th scum" indeed. It all looks so obvious now jesus, I was on Yomi between rabidly defending myself to Xatalos for just jumping in and voting, and then imallinson makes the random decision to support me after he contradicts himself. And KB was acting really really silly considering he was on the opposite end of a DT check. Sometimes I really hate missing the obvious. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Thanks to all your hard work in hosting these games, and for designing Aperture, you really are awesome. Also, a psychology major, you have an advantage over us mere mortals =( | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Your actions confused me for a DT because: A) you tunneled me most of the game but never checked my alignment B) You did nothing D2 except martyr yourself, also something that would greatly hurt town if we successfully lynched you. C) As Arctic stated, you voted Xatalos (supporting me after you tunneled me all game) showing a 180 degree switch in your voting pattern and behavior. If you actually voted me initially and then changed your mind, I would have been more inclined to believe you (since you were willing to vote Yomi D1 along with the rest of us) I made the logic leap to Xatalos/you/imallinson being on the same team because I could not understand why you would change your vote and then come in and make a DT check. I played terribly too, don't take this as some sort of I am better than you kind of explanation, but i'm explaining my reactions at the time to your behavior. In hindsight I pretty much sort of agree with how you played, I even pretty much said you were a newb town to me for the way you played, which is both good for deflecting attention but also kills your town cred. No one was willing to believe you (until Xatalos at the end) because you never commented on the general state of discussion very much (the same mistake I made) Edit: Also you tunneling me so hard (without even checking my alignment D1) led to my downfall/acting more scummy or at least set up the chain of events. It was frustrating for me to watch you stick on me without trying to look for anyone else (except you did so secretly because of DT, so I guess it explains it) but when asked for my teammates you made the jump to Arctic/yomi, and DT checked Arctic of all people for your N1 action. People were attacking me for consistently defending you for no basis (since you weren't contributing as much as the others). One of the explanations for this sort of defense is from a true Mafia knowing who is really town and choosing a town to buddy to make them feel better. I would hope you could see that a Mafia really wouldn't go as far as I did to link us publicly, especially considering you were DT. I would have assumed you would just check me N1 to see what my alignment really was and to actually help me push reads. Don't forget, I was townie to most peoples mind D1 until I started rabidly defending you without basis. | ||
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