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Again @ all town, I advise you to ignore Dittert's DT claim and either vote myself or Xatalos as originally intended for D3 and by Acrofales/HiroPro.
If you think Dittert flipping scum would give weight to me being his teammate and grounds for a lynch D4, then you have your proof right now and can get rid of me instead first. Dittert's post all but incriminates us together, lynch me now then instead of lynching him.
If you think my case against Xatalos has any merit, and can see that what I'm saying about Xatalos bussing Dittert his scum teammate, then vote him instead and when he does flip, you can see his true intentions, which is so much more information than what lynching Dittert would provide for town. If town gets a choice in lynching two almost certain Mafia, town should lynch the Mafia that would give town more information, since we can only lynch one at a time and we are not completely certain of a person's alignment until they flip, unlike Mafia who already know who their enemies are.
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@ KB
The dynamic of voting hasn't changed, I just put pressure on imallinson and Xatalos to explain why they aren't changing their vote to me now instead of staying on Dittert.
If Dittert gets lynched instead and flips scum, then D4 will be the same thing, the deciding lynch to continue the game between myself and Xatalos. In an effort to stop repeating this cycle because it is distracting town, I am trying to get rid of Xatalos now so we can figure out the other scum.
Remember Xatalos' argument, he wants to lynch Dittert to incriminate me, and was willing to vote me before Dittert fake-claimed, and is willing to lynch me after Dittert, but won't lynch me now?
As it stands, Dittert's vote on KB is a throwaway one and won't decide things (unless he lies and changes it last minute but that can't be helped) That leaves 7 players to decide the vote leaving the votecount right now as:
Dittert(3): Yomi, Xatalos, imallinson
KharadBanar(1): Dittert
Xatalos(2): willz22912, KharadBanar
vonKlaust, funcmode will decide the vote either way, we need both of them to vote for Xatalos since Dittert is still the first person with 3 votes and will be the decided lynch unless we get 4 on Xatalos. Add something else untownlike to Dittert's play, doesn't convince anyone very well with his case against KB, and then proceeds to waste his vote, making it harder for town to lynch successfully
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On April 20 2012 05:05 imallinson wrote:
@Willz
The problem I'm having with voting for Xatalos is that Dittert is my # 1 scum read due to what I think is a fake DT claim. You are my # 2 and Xatalos is # 3. While I agree that info tomorrow would be nice, actually getting there is better.
On April 20 2012 05:17 imallinson wrote:
I guess it's down to who hits 4 votes first. Seeing as the Dittert thing has lost all steam, I'm going to trust you because your judgement seems sound.
##Unvote
##Vote: Xatalos
Just some forwarning. I'm not going to be around if you decide to change. I've taken some strong painkillers and am now going to pass out. Sorry if this post is a bit short and incoherent.
So basically, he says Dittert is his #1 scumread for his fake-claim and Dittert is also the leading lynch candidate with 3 votes, but now he's willing to switch and support me because my judgement seems sound, except for the fact that imallinson says himself that he thinks I'm more scummier than Xatalos in his mind. I have put imallinson as the 3rd scummiest/member of the scum team in mind (after Xatalos at #1 and Dittert at #2 now for his DT case) Anyone else want to make sense of this, I would like an objective opinion on how this looks to all of you.
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If you thought your case against me was so solid Xatalos, why did you switch your vote to Dittert for one mistake? Why not continue the vote against me and use Dittert's fake-claim as more evidence to add to your case in the first place? Why does one action distract you from your overall purpose?
Isn't taking the easy out and jumping on someone for making 1 scummy post how town has gotten here to this shitty situation in the first place? (Brood making that awful post, instant lynch in <20m), Hiro coming out and Acro making a single case against him with 1 hour before deadline(when I, Xatalos, Yomi all were more suspicious overall in that game) convincing 7 of us to vote him making town lynch their own doctor.
You made your case to convince the rest of the town to lynch me, I did the same to lynch you. However one post by Dittert let's you drop everything and vote him instead? I kept asking you why you would do such a thing when it only adds more weight to your case against me, why didn't you just stick to voting me and ignoring Dittert's fake DT claim if you think he's Mafia. If you think Dittert is Mafia, why did you put so much stock into a fake DT claim?
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On April 20 2012 05:47 yomi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 04:35 willz22912 wrote:
Again @ all town, I advise you to ignore Dittert's DT claim and either vote myself or Xatalos as originally intended for D3 and by Acrofales/HiroPro.
If you think Dittert flipping scum would give weight to me being his teammate and grounds for a lynch D4, then you have your proof right now and can get rid of me instead first. Dittert's post all but incriminates us together, lynch me now then instead of lynching him.
If you think my case against Xatalos has any merit, and can see that what I'm saying about Xatalos bussing Dittert his scum teammate, then vote him instead and when he does flip, you can see his true intentions, which is so much more information than what lynching Dittert would provide for town. If town gets a choice in lynching two almost certain Mafia, town should lynch the Mafia that would give town more information, since we can only lynch one at a time and we are not completely certain of a person's alignment until they flip, unlike Mafia who already know who their enemies are. You are saying if xat is mafia ditt is also mafia, but if ditt is mafia xat could still potentially be town?
Where did I say that Xat could potentially be town if Ditt is Mafia? Of course anyone in this game could be town, I am not a DT, I cannot confirm with 100% certainty anyone's alignment until he flips, but I believe Xatalos and Dittert are both Mafia.
So you've clearly been around and reading the thread because you posted this, but you haven't posted any of your reasoning (including why you thought I was town for so long) Care to finally jump in since its 2 hours before deadline? You are lurking super hard right now and you also jumped on Dittert's lynch very quickly.
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Xatalos, are you arguing to convince people to vote me or vote Dittert, make up your mind. You once gave me the chance to save me from being lynched, at the time I assumed you were a fellow townie but now I don't know for sure. However, I will still give you the chance to do so, convince us(mainly the others) why you're town.
If you want people to vote me, then fine continue on as you have been (unhelpful and spamming the thread in your defense) and change your vote.
If you want people to consider voting Dittert who we both agree is Mafia for his fake DT claim, convince them. If you convince enough people (I won't switch) then that's equally acceptable to me, it's still a Mafia that dies and lets town continue the game, but doesn't defend prove anything or increase your towncred since you still have to explain your behavior today. I will also be held accountable to this if I survive to D4. Then we resume the beginning of D3 all over again, you want to vote me, I want to vote you.
The choice is yours.
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EBWOB. It's still a Mafia that dies and lets town continue the game, but it doesn't defend you, prove anything, or increase your towncred since you still have to explain your behavior today. Should be the correct sentence.
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On April 20 2012 05:31 willz22912 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 05:05 imallinson wrote:
@Willz
The problem I'm having with voting for Xatalos is that Dittert is my # 1 scum read due to what I think is a fake DT claim. You are my # 2 and Xatalos is # 3. While I agree that info tomorrow would be nice, actually getting there is better. Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 05:17 imallinson wrote:
I guess it's down to who hits 4 votes first. Seeing as the Dittert thing has lost all steam, I'm going to trust you because your judgement seems sound.
##Unvote
##Vote: Xatalos
Just some forwarning. I'm not going to be around if you decide to change. I've taken some strong painkillers and am now going to pass out. Sorry if this post is a bit short and incoherent. So basically, he says Dittert is his #1 scumread for his fake-claim and Dittert is also the leading lynch candidate with 3 votes, but now he's willing to switch and support me because my judgement seems sound, except for the fact that imallinson says himself that he thinks I'm more scummier than Xatalos in his mind. I have put imallinson as the 3rd scummiest/member of the scum team in mind (after Xatalos at #1 and Dittert at #2 now for his DT case) Anyone else want to make sense of this, I would like an objective opinion on how this looks to all of you.
Since Xatalos likes posting old posts to defend himself, I'm re-quoting this so I can start a discussion, can someone take a look at what I posted here please.
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@Xatalos, if you believe Dittert's DT claim to be real, why not vote KharadBanar since a DT check is also "100% confirmed Mafia" and Dittert also voted him as well, giving you +1 vote, making it more likely to save yourself?
Why vote me instead if you believe Dittert's claim (and do you think I'm also town considering Dittert is not willing to vote me anymore and he's a DT?)
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You voted Dittert because a fakeclaim = 100% Mafia, but a real DT check is also 100% Mafia so why not vote KB?
It's not fun trying to make a case while under pressure isn't it? Considering I felt the same way D1 and the beginning of D3, I sympathize, but now you can't really use that argument too huh?
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On April 20 2012 06:48 KharadBanar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 06:45 willz22912 wrote:
@Xatalos, if you believe Dittert's DT claim to be real, why not vote KharadBanar since a DT check is also "100% confirmed Mafia" and Dittert also voted him as well, giving you +1 vote, making it more likely to save yourself?
Why vote me instead if you believe Dittert's claim (and do you think I'm also town considering Dittert is not willing to vote me anymore and he's a DT?)
He isn't considering Dittert's check to be real, he considers it to be very likely fake but you even more likely mafia. Even though I don't agree with him as much as he'd probably like, my opinion has since swung again in favour of him because you haven't been quite as active in saving me as I originally thought.
I was responding to Xatalos' point here: On April 20 2012 06:42 Xatalos wrote:
At this point, I'm even ready to consider the possibility that Dittert's claim was actually genuine, but you abused his going AFK and turned it somehow into lynching me. Why do I think it might have been genuine?
A) KharadBanar was praised a lot from his previous game.
B) In this game, KharadBanar has been mostly sheeping and using horrible logic, not actively pushing much of anything.
In that case, the only good option now would be to lynch Willz (since Dittert wouldn't be Mafia after all).
He possibly believes in Dittert's DT claim, which would mean KB is Mafia, however instead of going with that, he continues to vote me? Whats the point of citing a DT claim then?
As for not defending you nearly as much as you thought I did, sure since you never really were in danger of being lynched, but Dittert was just creating confusion. You're entitled to your own thoughts, but I think I have been clear in my points while Xatalos has been spamming, but if that's enough to convince you, vote Dittert then and convince everyone else if you think his claim is fake.
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We have an hour till deadline, can we please consolidate on one person so that Mafia don't attempt a last minute switch to win the game?
We have to have 4 votes, I only need 2 more on Xatalos to guarantee his lynch, if you want to switch to Dittert, it looks like Xatalos isn't willing to switch back (or is he going to waffle again?)
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So now Xatalos is trying to weasel out of his lynch by voting anyone he can, sigh. Town you really disappoint me. KB, we can avoid your doomsday changevote scenario by just voting Xatalos and confirming his lynch.
If either of you have any further questions, just please take a look at Xatalos' filter for the last couple of pages, his logic is all over the place.
He says he possibly believes in Dittert's DT case against KB (ergo KB is 100% Mafia checked by a DT) but decides to vote me instead? D3 he was all for voting me and it was at a 2-2 standoff, but then Dittert came in with his DT claim, Xatalos switches to Dittert, but now he switches back to me (even though if he doesn't believe Dittert's fakeclaim that means Dittert is 100% Mafia and by his own previous reasoning, was the justification to lynch Dittert over me today)
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It's more the town played really horribly (including myself) than Mafia playing good btw, if town loses because we mis-lynched you Xatalos (and at my behest) I say my logic against you makes you Mafia, you say your logic against me makes me Mafia, it's all a giant circle.
Also nothing personal from anything I've said to anyone, it's just a game but it's easy to put your emotions into it when you spend so much time on it.
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Sigh, I should have seen a lot of this in hindsight.
My apologies to town, Dittert claiming DT when he did should have resulted in either lynching Dittert or KB, one of the two HAS to be lying, and I was suspicious of KB because like I said, I saw him in Newbie VI and he was doing nothing similar to that here.
I was actually willing to switch to KB at some point because people kept bringing up Dittert's claim being possibly true, but Xatalos kept insisting I was Mafia nothing would have convinced him in my mind, and I had my reasons for thinking he was Mafia as well.
Any advice appreciated, I really bungled this game, need to back off Mafia for a bit.
I knew Dittert had to be town but his behavior especially as DT was so erratic all game that I couldn't keep that line of thinking without going WHY?
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EBWOB: To be honest as well, I also sort of gave up trying to figure things out with all the confusion. Reading the obsqt is both funny and sad. Sorry for the terribleness all around.
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Read through all of OBSqt, I should have taken a break after certain amounts of posts and came back with a clear head, think I'll do that in the future more often than sitting around re-reading the thread.
Also very sad that my intention in this last newbie game was to play really well and I did the exact opposite, "4th scum" indeed.
It all looks so obvious now jesus, I was on Yomi between rabidly defending myself to Xatalos for just jumping in and voting, and then imallinson makes the random decision to support me after he contradicts himself. And KB was acting really really silly considering he was on the opposite end of a DT check. Sometimes I really hate missing the obvious.
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Hey Greymist, if you need a co-host I think I'd like to do one of those things before taking another stab at a full fledged Mafia games.
Thanks to all your hard work in hosting these games, and for designing Aperture, you really are awesome. Also, a psychology major, you have an advantage over us mere mortals =(
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@ Dittert
Your actions confused me for a DT because:
A) you tunneled me most of the game but never checked my alignment
B) You did nothing D2 except martyr yourself, also something that would greatly hurt town if we successfully lynched you.
C) As Arctic stated, you voted Xatalos (supporting me after you tunneled me all game) showing a 180 degree switch in your voting pattern and behavior.
If you actually voted me initially and then changed your mind, I would have been more inclined to believe you (since you were willing to vote Yomi D1 along with the rest of us) I made the logic leap to Xatalos/you/imallinson being on the same team because I could not understand why you would change your vote and then come in and make a DT check.
I played terribly too, don't take this as some sort of I am better than you kind of explanation, but i'm explaining my reactions at the time to your behavior. In hindsight I pretty much sort of agree with how you played, I even pretty much said you were a newb town to me for the way you played, which is both good for deflecting attention but also kills your town cred. No one was willing to believe you (until Xatalos at the end) because you never commented on the general state of discussion very much (the same mistake I made)
Edit: Also you tunneling me so hard (without even checking my alignment D1) led to my downfall/acting more scummy or at least set up the chain of events. It was frustrating for me to watch you stick on me without trying to look for anyone else (except you did so secretly because of DT, so I guess it explains it) but when asked for my teammates you made the jump to Arctic/yomi, and DT checked Arctic of all people for your N1 action.
People were attacking me for consistently defending you for no basis (since you weren't contributing as much as the others). One of the explanations for this sort of defense is from a true Mafia knowing who is really town and choosing a town to buddy to make them feel better. I would hope you could see that a Mafia really wouldn't go as far as I did to link us publicly, especially considering you were DT. I would have assumed you would just check me N1 to see what my alignment really was and to actually help me push reads. Don't forget, I was townie to most peoples mind D1 until I started rabidly defending you without basis.
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EPT
