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On April 12 2012 08:50 KharadBanar wrote:
BroodKingEXE: How did your Day 1 start? Was it an accusation that got the discussion flowing or was it just random strategy talk like we're doing here?
My Day 1 started with a discussion like this one. People looked at the responses and started probing. We had really good leaders in that game that were able to get a lot of people talking. We ended up lynching a lurker, due in part to a bad response. The accusations were really what reveleaved who was who in the end, but drawing those responses (and non-responses) was key to directing focus.
Here is a link to my first game:
Game 1
Note the Response from Electric Black and xtfftc(page 5 and 6). they are very charged and lead us to believe they were scum. EB later admitted he made a bad response in the Observer Thread, and xtfftc turned up being scum. Think about it, that is a 50% chance of catching Mafia, since there are only 25% mafia in town that means we win.
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So for the sake of pulling more active people into this thread I'm going to do something Kohbee did in Newbie VI to spark some discussion:
##Vote: HiroPro
I have no clue whether he is actually scum or not (he was in Newbie VI) but at least it will get him to talk.
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Not RNG lynch... RNG proposed lynch. I was trying to gauge people's reactions to things. If we RNG and hit scum, surely at least 2 people will jump up to defend that person or risk losing one of their own. If no one really cares about killing that person, they're probably town.
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On April 12 2012 08:42 KharadBanar wrote:
EBWOP: Notice how both the openings I explained ended up in the guy doing it (a townie) getting lynched. When start discussion with something like this, we're gonna have to do it right.
Aperture Mafia had us lynching Drazerk D1 who was 3rd party, not a town. Yes it wasted discussion for D1, but in the end it was still worth it for town to get rid of him and obtain more information from his role PM. Don't equate the two, Aperture was by far way more complex than any Newbie game and can hardly be used as a constructive example for either town or scum behavior (read Greymist's blogs if you're wondering on how the game went down)
If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum.
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On April 12 2012 09:16 Dittert wrote:
Not RNG lynch... RNG proposed lynch. I was trying to gauge people's reactions to things. If we RNG and hit scum, surely at least 2 people will jump up to defend that person or risk losing one of their own. If no one really cares about killing that person, they're probably town.
You're insinuating that Mafia would be willing to openly defend one of their members from a laughable RNG proposed lynch? This is WIFOM for what scum would do, don't dwell on this line of thinking. Why would they even bother risking the attention? This is not helping town, keep going and I'll make you my Day1 vote.
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I'm not sure I support pressure voting this early. Especially when you're so open about the fact that you're pressure voting. The game has been going for like an hour, and it's pretty natural that some people haven't posted yet. Also, stating that openly that you're voting for pressure kinda nullifies the effect, doesn't it?
It's pretty funny that you actually just mentioned that this tactic ended up back fireing in your last game(it's even the same guy!)
In Newbie Mini Mafia VI (the first game I played), Kohbee essentially put out a random vote on HiroPro to get discussion going, but it kinda backfired and Kohbee was almost lynched Day 1/lynched for good Day 2, wasting 2 days of town activity. (Spoiler: Kohbee was Cop in that game).
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I'm refering to this post On April 12 2012 09:13 KharadBanar wrote:
So for the sake of pulling more active people into this thread I'm going to do something Kohbee did in Newbie VI to spark some discussion:
##Vote: HiroPro
I have no clue whether he is actually scum or not (he was in Newbie VI) but at least it will get him to talk.
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On April 12 2012 09:16 Dittert wrote:
Not RNG lynch... RNG proposed lynch. I was trying to gauge people's reactions to things. If we RNG and hit scum, surely at least 2 people will jump up to defend that person or risk losing one of their own. If no one really cares about killing that person, they're probably town.
Verrrrry WIFOM reasoning. Be careful of that. It sounds logical, but discussing motive rarely leads anywhere. What if scum decides to bus? What if someone jumps up to defend because they think RNG is silly, or they have a blue read on him? This line of reasoning leads nowhere fast, and it's best to ignore it.
You're tripping my scum-o-meter pretty hard right now. Got any better suggestions?
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For any players whose first game is this one, be patient, you're not going to suddenly solve the mystery of who's scum in the first 24 hours, it takes a while for the inconsistencies to show. The most important thing is to be active and always remember who is trying to slide by with the least constructive posting.
I've played in Newbie V and almost won as town, but we had a lot of people drop out and get modkilled due to inactivity, and we let a scum slide for 2 days because we couldn't get our act together and vote him. I've learned a lot from the feedback I got and I'm going to be more active and assertive this game, so don't be an inactive town or I will push you.
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@willz22912:
I noticed that. My point was that the claim by Drazerk was definitely made to spark discussion within the town, and that it lead to a whole bunch of chaos in the thread and eventually Drazerk's downfall, helped by the fact that he just made shit up as he went along.
@Dittert:
The whole RNG thing makes tons of problems. First, how do you decide who determines the random number? We can't just decide to randomize some number "as a group". And how do you keep the guy randomizing from just pulling a random number out of his ass? How do you know the guy coming up with the number isn't scum and treats this as the perfect opportunity to off the player of his liking?
![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/random_number.png)
@vonKlaust:
I claimed that I was pressure voting simply because I saw what happened to Kohbee in VI: He didn't properly claim it, people got confused and the chaos happened because they mistook him for scum. As to whether it's a bit early for pressure voting: I can take the vote off HiroPro pretty easily later on, but the exact timing when I exert/take off the pressure doesn't matter as much (I think, please correct me about this if I'm wrong).
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EBWOP: The @willz22912 part of my last post refers to willz22912's second-to-last post, in case that's not clear.
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You're allowed to quote other peoples posts in order to be more clear, if it's a very long post, just put the [spoiler] tags in front and /spoiler in back. Start doing that please so we can recognize which posts are quoting which posts (obviously you can't edit)
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I know. I just didn't want to quote three posts because then the whole thing becomes an unreadable mess, and you ninja'd me right as I was posting it >_>
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On April 12 2012 09:19 vonKlaust wrote:I'm not sure I support pressure voting this early. Especially when you're so open about the fact that you're pressure voting. The game has been going for like an hour, and it's pretty natural that some people haven't posted yet. Also, stating that openly that you're voting for pressure kinda nullifies the effect, doesn't it? It's pretty funny that you actually just mentioned that this tactic ended up back fireing in your last game(it's even the same guy!) Show nested quote +In Newbie Mini Mafia VI (the first game I played), Kohbee essentially put out a random vote on HiroPro to get discussion going, but it kinda backfired and Kohbee was almost lynched Day 1/lynched for good Day 2, wasting 2 days of town activity. (Spoiler: Kohbee was Cop in that game).
He should be open about pressure voting! If he is going to pressure vote shouldn't we know as a town? That way we know that KB is thinks Hiro is not scum and that he isn't throwing his vote around randomly (like a scum).
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On April 12 2012 09:29 KharadBanar wrote:
@vonKlaust:
I claimed that I was pressure voting simply because I saw what happened to Kohbee in VI: He didn't properly claim it, people got confused and the chaos happened because they mistook him for scum. As to whether it's a bit early for pressure voting: I can take the vote off HiroPro pretty easily later on, but the exact timing when I exert/take off the pressure doesn't matter as much (I think, please correct me about this if I'm wrong).
You kind of made a mistake by announcing the reason you were pushing him was to evoke a response. The timing does matter, if you put it on him this early what is he going to be able to claim to defend himself with? He's obviously going to say "I'm town, don't vote me", which cannot be verified at this point. If you pressure later on in the game and start using his own responses against him, that's stronger pressure and can lead to scumslipping and the inconsistencies of a true scum player.
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On April 12 2012 09:37 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:19 vonKlaust wrote:I'm not sure I support pressure voting this early. Especially when you're so open about the fact that you're pressure voting. The game has been going for like an hour, and it's pretty natural that some people haven't posted yet. Also, stating that openly that you're voting for pressure kinda nullifies the effect, doesn't it? It's pretty funny that you actually just mentioned that this tactic ended up back fireing in your last game(it's even the same guy!) In Newbie Mini Mafia VI (the first game I played), Kohbee essentially put out a random vote on HiroPro to get discussion going, but it kinda backfired and Kohbee was almost lynched Day 1/lynched for good Day 2, wasting 2 days of town activity. (Spoiler: Kohbee was Cop in that game). He should be open about pressure voting! If he is going to pressure vote shouldn't we know as a town? That way we know that KB is thinks Hiro is not scum and that he isn't throwing his vote around randomly (like a scum).
To be honest, I just read "A General Guide to Mafia" and on the subject of pressure voting it says:
"Never reveal that you are pressure voting, as this destroys its effectiveness. Refrain from saying that you are “pressure voting” or “policy voting”
So what I was thinking was that it would be better to wait for a while, since it's pretty natural for people not to have posted yet, and putting out a vote later when the person you're pressuring have actually made posts which you can use in your pressure-attempt. I can't imagine that you would feel very pressured by the kind of pressure vote KharadBanar made.
Thinking about it, what you say makes sense though. I guess throwing votes around seemingly lighly is a pretty good way to get lynched yourself.
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What Willz wrote was pretty much what I was thinking.
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@Dittert:
The whole RNG thing makes tons of problems. First, how do you decide who determines the random number? We can't just decide to randomize some number "as a group". And how do you keep the guy randomizing from just pulling a random number out of his ass? How do you know the guy coming up with the number isn't scum and treats this as the perfect opportunity to off the player of his liking?
All very good points that I did not think about prior to posting. I was just trying to get things flowing. As someone pointed out earlier, I saw someone suggest a seemingly "random" lynch in a couple other games, and in all of those cases the person doing the suggesting ended up getting lynched and being a townie. I thought this way we could get a discussion about lynching someone started without having to necessarily lynch whoever did the suggesting.
I feel it's okay if I have a terrible idea, with this being my first game of mafia in my whole life, and all...
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On April 12 2012 09:46 vonKlaust wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:37 BroodKingEXE wrote:On April 12 2012 09:19 vonKlaust wrote:I'm not sure I support pressure voting this early. Especially when you're so open about the fact that you're pressure voting. The game has been going for like an hour, and it's pretty natural that some people haven't posted yet. Also, stating that openly that you're voting for pressure kinda nullifies the effect, doesn't it? It's pretty funny that you actually just mentioned that this tactic ended up back fireing in your last game(it's even the same guy!) In Newbie Mini Mafia VI (the first game I played), Kohbee essentially put out a random vote on HiroPro to get discussion going, but it kinda backfired and Kohbee was almost lynched Day 1/lynched for good Day 2, wasting 2 days of town activity. (Spoiler: Kohbee was Cop in that game). He should be open about pressure voting! If he is going to pressure vote shouldn't we know as a town? That way we know that KB is thinks Hiro is not scum and that he isn't throwing his vote around randomly (like a scum). To be honest, I just read "A General Guide to Mafia" and on the subject of pressure voting it says: Show nested quote +"Never reveal that you are pressure voting, as this destroys its effectiveness. Refrain from saying that you are “pressure voting” or “policy voting” So what I was thinking was that it would be better to wait for a while, since it's pretty natural for people not to have posted yet, and putting out a vote later when the person you're pressuring have actually made posts which you can use in your pressure-attempt. I can't imagine that you would feel very pressured by the kind of pressure vote KharadBanar made. Thinking about it, what you say makes sense though. I guess throwing votes around seemingly lighly is a pretty good way to get lynched yourself.
Damn, I'm doing it wrong ;_;
Okay, another strategy question to discuss then: Should I leave the vote on him in that case? i.e. Is pressure voting "the wrong way" actually any more useful than not doing it at all? I still have the feeling the vote is going to accomplish something, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first because I'm not sure at all about it.
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I'm not an idiot Kharad.
Also, lol @ anyone who thinks Kharad's vote is random. He picked me because he wants to compare the response from last game to this game.
And this entire conversation about how and when to pressure vote is pointless, considering it's already been done in this game.
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EPT
