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On April 12 2012 15:44 imallinson wrote:
/confirm
Hello all just woke up and read through the thread so far.
I'm kind of worried that a load of time was wasted discussing RNG votes. It seems a bit like Dittert was sending us down a bad path. I'm not sure if that's due to scummyness or newbness but it's definitely something to watch out for.
As for Kharad's pressure vote on Hiro it makes sense if he is trying to get a read on him based on info from a previous game. I'm guessing he isn't that suspicious of him after his answer due to the unvote.
Finally on lurker votes I'll reiterate what I said in my last game that lurker votes should be a last resort because you have a fair chance of lynching a blue that is hiding in the shadows.
This post is something to keep in mind going forward. It's full of hesitation and indecisive comments... And he even starts talking about blue reads, just like ArcticFox. Perhaps he and ArcticFox have been talking about their blue reads in Mafia chat and slipped that discussion over to this thread?
People I'm fine with lynching right now: ArcticFox, Dittert, yomi, imallinson. I'm pretty sure at least 1-2 of these players are Mafia. If you four want to clear yourselves in my eyes, something major needs to happen. I suggest everyone to read my case on ArcticFox and vote for him. I'd put his chances of being Mafia at 70-80%, which is extremely high for me considering it's this early. I also want to see his response, though, but I don't know what would convince me otherwise at this point (I guess an EVEN stronger Mafia read on someone else, which isn't an easy feat to achieve!).
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G'NIGHT US buds, morning EU buds
Ill post in the morning.
@Xatalos: Do you think ArticFox is more scummy because he has posted more bad posts, or because the bad posts of others didnt have as good a read?
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
@ Xatalos
I didn't mention blue reads at all. I said lurker lynches can get a blue who is trying to hide in the shadows. I never mentioned anyone I thought was blue or how we would figure a blue out. You seem to be looking so hard for slip ups you are making some yourself.
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On April 12 2012 16:43 BroodKingEXE wrote:
@Xatalos: Do you think ArticFox is more scummy because he has posted more bad posts, or because the bad posts of others didnt have as good a read?
I also have a sufficient-to-lynch Mafia read on Dittert and a slight Mafia read on yomi and imallinson. The reason why I chose to vote for ArcticFox is because his play is SO similar to how I played as a Mafia Framer in A Game of Thrones Mafia. It's almost like he chose to look at my post history and repeat the exact same mistakes I did there. If you want to take a look, you can see the similarity in my posts there and his posts here. It's a combination of his overall attitude and several blatant Mafia tells (which I listed in my case). At first I thought about voting for Dittert, but he hasn't posted much yet (although his posts so far are looking pretty Mafia to me) - and ArcticFox has posted many more Mafia tells + his play reminds me so much of my earlier Mafia play. So, there you have it.
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On April 12 2012 16:54 imallinson wrote:
@ Xatalos
I didn't mention blue reads at all. I said lurker lynches can get a blue who is trying to hide in the shadows. I never mentioned anyone I thought was blue or how we would figure a blue out. You seem to be looking so hard for slip ups you are making some yourself.
Nevertheless, you were THINKING about blue tells as you considered lynching lurkers = possibly killing blues. It's not a reason enough to lynch you yet, but if I had to choose between you or anyone else outside of ArcticFox, Dittert and yomi, I would choose to vote for you. And you seem to forget that blue players very rarely are lurkers: mostly they try to act like vanilla townies and be at least somewhat active. Being a lurker or semi-lurker means a higher chance of Mafia, since it's against Mafia's win condition to contribute. Besides, I found your hesitation and wishy-washiness more condemning than your comment about lurkers = blues.
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Hi guys. I think I have figured out why people say they hate D1. I have just read through about 4 pages of posts with a LOT of nonsense filler that nobody can use for anything (not even lighting a fire to cook Greymist and stop the hunger).
Luckily it wasn't a total loss, because I did get two things from it. The first is that Dittert made a really bad proposal and got it shot down. That makes Dittert either scum, or noobie. Seeing as we're all noobs, that doesn't mean much, but I have my eye on him now and want him to post something useful.
The other thing I got is more serious. KharadBanar has been a paragon of recycling useless stuff. He does not take a firm stance on anything much at all (except maybe lurker lynches, which everybody and their blind grandma will say yes to). Whereas other people pointed out that Dittert's policy was just plain bad, KharadBanar decided that it was more important to show that it was technically difficult to accomplish: why bother?
However, my biggest problem with KharadBanar was his "pressure" vote. It has been pointed out why his pressure vote was bad, but what was even worse was that, after he admitted that and Hiro posted anyway, he just laid off and unvoted. If Hiro had posted anything useful I would agree with that, but here is Hiro's response to the "pressure":
On April 12 2012 09:57 HiroPro wrote:
I'm not an idiot Kharad.
Also, lol @ anyone who thinks Kharad's vote is random. He picked me because he wants to compare the response from last game to this game.
And this entire conversation about how and when to pressure vote is pointless, considering it's already been done in this game.
A completely fair response in my book, because there was no pressure to start with, but if Kharad actually wanted to pressure Hiro, NOW is the chance to lay it on and get a real response. You've made a ballsup, Hiro responded knowing you fubar'd it up. Now ask him some pointed questions and get a response from Hiro when he's actually under pressure. Instead, what does Kharad do?
On April 12 2012 10:01 KharadBanar wrote:
...and this is actually a useful answer. Thank you Hiro. I'm not saying this is how it's done but I got the result I wanted in some way.
##unvote
btw, I don't think it's that obvious to everyone that I picked you just for that.
What? How was his answer in any way, shape, or form useful? All he said was "lololol wtf vote".
So yeah, Kharad. Step it up. People say your play in Newbie VI was good. I want to see some of that play instead of all this nonsense.
@Xatalos: of course I was quiet, I was asleep.
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Of course we can't expect everyone to play logically, but if you're a townie, you SHOULD contribute and be active, and if you're Mafia, you SHOULD be silent or disruptive. So lurking is definitely not equal to how a townie SHOULD play.
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Hmm. Acrofales, you say KharadBanar hasn't taken a firm stance, but neither have you - you just noticed a couple of potentially suspicious actions and left it at that. Why not pressure either Dittert or KharadBanar? Why no firm stance on anything? I agree with your points, but it's not very useful to just point out something and do nothing about it.
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Also, you said this thread was full of nonsense, which isn't really true. There aren't many significant contributions, but there are many pretty obvious Mafia tells, which is the most useful information after all.
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Actually, KharadBanar's fake pressure voting is the exact same tactic I used in A Game of Thrones as Mafia. Thanks for pointing that out, Acrofales. It definitely casts doubt on him, so I wouldn't be against lynching him. Still, he's not the best lynch target for now. I say ArcticFox and Dittert are our best Mafia reads at the moment. Anyone else want to vote? One vote isn't yet enough to force Mafia slips, but 2-3 might well be. And I want to see everyone's opinions and reactions about my case on ArcticFox (also Dittert, although my case on him is mostly just the public apology without any reason).
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/confirm
Just woke up...
I must say after reading all these posts that some parts feels pretty much nonsense but some parts can give som information
About the preassure vote I have agree with acrofales and Xatalos that it seems edgeless the way KharadBanar is doing it and feels somewhat suspicious.
Also Dittert seems suspicous with his proposal going down and not contributing to much in the discussion.
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On April 12 2012 17:37 Xatalos wrote:
Hmm. Acrofales, you say KharadBanar hasn't taken a firm stance, but neither have you - you just noticed a couple of potentially suspicious actions and left it at that. Why not pressure either Dittert or KharadBanar? Why no firm stance on anything? I agree with your points, but it's not very useful to just point out something and do nothing about it.
It's early in the day. I have no clear scum reads yet. I find KharadBanar's posting to be suspicious. I was thinking of voting for him, but I want him to respond first. Let me reiterate: there are still 37 hours left in this day and I prefer to gather information rather than tunnel on one person.
Here's what I think of the other goings on:
Xatalos' ArcticFox case: I would say something about this, because I have an opinion, but I find it far more interesting to see what ArcticFox says about it.
Dittert: I don't think his stupid idea was enough to label him scum off the bat. However, Dittert has appeared as a minor blip on my scumdar and I would like to hear what he has to say about the goings on in the thread. Dittert, if the day deadline were to be in 2 hours, who would you want to lynch and why?
And just to make things completely clear. KharadBanar: stop shitting up the thread and start contributing. Why did you find Hiro's answer "useful"? Who do you think is scum and why?
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
@ Xatalos
I've had a good read through your argument against ArcticFox and haven't found any major holes in your logic there. I think that the talking about blues is less important than the stuff he says about policy lynches (although it definitely doesn't help his case). He seems to say that he doesn't want a policy lynch but keeps suggesting various policy lynches:
On April 12 2012 10:28 ArcticFox wrote:
I would prefer not to have to policy lynch at all, but liars and lurkers is a good place to start.
On April 12 2012 08:34 ArcticFox wrote:
I'm all for lynching liars above all else.
On April 12 2012 10:08 ArcticFox wrote: I'm interested in your thoughts on our policy discussions and such so far.
I'd like to see him put up some defence of your accusations.
As for Dittert I still can't figure out whether he is just being a newb town or is trying to distract us as scum. He hasn't posted a proper defence yet. "I'm a newb, please don't lynch me" doesn't count
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On April 12 2012 17:37 Xatalos wrote:
Dittert: I don't think his stupid idea was enough to label him scum off the bat. However, Dittert has appeared as a minor blip on my scumdar and I would like to hear what he has to say about the goings on in the thread. Dittert, if the day deadline were to be in 2 hours, who would you want to lynch and why?
I agree with you on this what he said or did does not make him a scum, though I would like to hear mor from him and have my eyes on him.
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But the pressure is much stronger with vote+argument instead of just a vote (KharadBanar) or just an argument (Acrofales). So Acrofales, I encourage you to vote already. Your hesitation to vote only increases my suspicion of you, just like KharadBanar's empty voting increases my suspicion of him. A townie should never hesitate to vote. So while I agree that they need to respond, we won't necessarily get the answers we seek without the actual pressure of being lynched.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
EBWOP: I'm with Acrofales on KharadBanar. I'd like to know what info he got from Hiro. There have been a couple of "I think x is suspicious" with no real explanation behind it which doesn't really help anyone. So far Xatalos is the only one who has posted a well thought out accusation.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
EBWOP (again):
##Vote: ArcticFox
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On April 12 2012 18:54 imallinson wrote:@ Xatalos I've had a good read through your argument against ArcticFox and haven't found any major holes in your logic there. I think that the talking about blues is less important than the stuff he says about policy lynches (although it definitely doesn't help his case). He seems to say that he doesn't want a policy lynch but keeps suggesting various policy lynches: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 10:28 ArcticFox wrote:
I would prefer not to have to policy lynch at all, but liars and lurkers is a good place to start. Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:34 ArcticFox wrote:
I'm all for lynching liars above all else. Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 10:08 ArcticFox wrote: I'm interested in your thoughts on our policy discussions and such so far. I'd like to see him put up some defence of your accusations. As for Dittert I still can't figure out whether he is just being a newb town or is trying to distract us as scum. He hasn't posted a proper defence yet. "I'm a newb, please don't lynch me" doesn't count
Hmm, good answer. Your suspiciousness dropped a bit in my eyes. I want to see ArcticFox, Dittert, yomi and KharadBanar respond yet.
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On April 12 2012 18:58 Xatalos wrote:
But the pressure is much stronger with vote+argument instead of just a vote (KharadBanar) or just an argument (Acrofales). So Acrofales, I encourage you to vote already. Your hesitation to vote only increases my suspicion of you, just like KharadBanar's empty voting increases my suspicion of him. A townie should never hesitate to vote. So while I agree that they need to respond, we won't necessarily get the answers we seek without the actual pressure of being lynched.
I respectfully disagree. I am not VisceraEyes to randomly fling my vote around. I have two tools: my voice and my vote and I will be the judge of when to use one, the other or both. You're saying a townie should never be afraid to vote as if the reverse is suspicious: a townie should never not-vote. I think townies have every right not to vote when they feel there is no reason to. Currently, I see no reason to vote for KharadBanar or anybody else; and satisfying your paranoia is definitely not a reason.
Don't worry though, when I feel sufficiently certain that someone is scum, I will let everybody know with both argument and a vote.
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On April 12 2012 17:15 Acrofales wrote:+ Show Spoiler [lenghty quote] +Hi guys. I think I have figured out why people say they hate D1. I have just read through about 4 pages of posts with a LOT of nonsense filler that nobody can use for anything (not even lighting a fire to cook Greymist and stop the hunger). Luckily it wasn't a total loss, because I did get two things from it. The first is that Dittert made a really bad proposal and got it shot down. That makes Dittert either scum, or noobie. Seeing as we're all noobs, that doesn't mean much, but I have my eye on him now and want him to post something useful. The other thing I got is more serious. KharadBanar has been a paragon of recycling useless stuff. He does not take a firm stance on anything much at all (except maybe lurker lynches, which everybody and their blind grandma will say yes to). Whereas other people pointed out that Dittert's policy was just plain bad, KharadBanar decided that it was more important to show that it was technically difficult to accomplish: why bother? However, my biggest problem with KharadBanar was his "pressure" vote. It has been pointed out why his pressure vote was bad, but what was even worse was that, after he admitted that and Hiro posted anyway, he just laid off and unvoted. If Hiro had posted anything useful I would agree with that, but here is Hiro's response to the "pressure": On April 12 2012 09:57 HiroPro wrote:
I'm not an idiot Kharad.
Also, lol @ anyone who thinks Kharad's vote is random. He picked me because he wants to compare the response from last game to this game.
And this entire conversation about how and when to pressure vote is pointless, considering it's already been done in this game. A completely fair response in my book, because there was no pressure to start with, but if Kharad actually wanted to pressure Hiro, NOW is the chance to lay it on and get a real response. You've made a ballsup, Hiro responded knowing you fubar'd it up. Now ask him some pointed questions and get a response from Hiro when he's actually under pressure. Instead, what does Kharad do? On April 12 2012 10:01 KharadBanar wrote:
...and this is actually a useful answer. Thank you Hiro. I'm not saying this is how it's done but I got the result I wanted in some way.
##unvote
btw, I don't think it's that obvious to everyone that I picked you just for that. What? How was his answer in any way, shape, or form useful? All he said was "lololol wtf vote". So yeah, Kharad. Step it up. People say your play in Newbie VI was good. I want to see some of that play instead of all this nonsense. @Xatalos: of course I was quiet, I was asleep.
This is actually a really fair accusation to make, and as far as the Dittert thing with the random votes goes I don't really have an excuse. Furthermore, I have actually no freaking idea as to how to begin in a Mafia game. Look at VI and you'll see the first productive comments I made were well after people had taken stances and made their cases; I work way better with more material out there to go off of.
As for the pressure vote, consider that Hiro responded to me at 2:57 AM of my local time and I was really really tired. I was actually rather happy to have him answer as it meant I could go to bed without worrying how the discussion would develop if Hiro showed up while I was sleeping and I couldn't take my vote off, which is why I took off the pressure so easily.
Maybe I shouldn't have said the answer was "useful", but it's still an answer of him showing he's actually there, that he's been reading the thread, and tells us about his mindset on pressure votes. If that had come during the day I would certainly have inquired more than that.
So now enough with the defense, and onto some actual play. I actually have a (slight) suspicion of Xatalos, believe it or not. I have nothing to say against his case on ArcticFox, but I don't see "70-80% Mafia" in there just because Xatalos played the same way as mafia. Please remember that it is entirely possible to make this play as town if you're new.
This is by no means defending ArcticFox but if I had to evaluate his chances of being Mafia right now, I would put them lower, at like 40-50% which is still quite suspicious. But the thing I really don't like in there is this quote:On April 12 2012 18:18 Xatalos wrote:
I say ArcticFox and Dittert are our best Mafia reads at the moment. Anyone else want to vote? One vote isn't yet enough to force Mafia slips, but 2-3 might well be. And I want to see everyone's opinions and reactions about my case on ArcticFox (also Dittert, although my case on him is mostly just the public apology without any reason). Please remember that 2-3 votes is more than enough to cause scumslips even in town players, especially new ones. This is something I learned from VI, where Kohbee got into a fight with the entire town and looked scummy for defending himself when in actuality he was the cop desperately trying to wind himself out of the mess he's gotten into.
I am not against pressuring ArcticFox at this point because we need more posts from him, but I won't use my vote for it because I think 3 votes is enough pressure to make anyone's defense look scummy, be it actual scum or just town.
Players I would like to hear more from include: trumpetarn (you're finally awake, now let's get cooking), yomi (two posts some aren't gonna cut it in the long run), Dittert (not heard of you in a long while) and vonKlaust (after your initial contribution you have been absent for quite a long time). What do you all think about the case Acrofales made on me?
I hope this gets discussion going again somewhat.
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EPT
