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On April 14 2012 02:19 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 02:11 willz22912 wrote: I called out imallinson because he was so quick to drop his stances on everything with a "good argument" and that Xatalos was letting him latch onto his case against ArcticFox without any questioning. HiroPro has also not contributed nearly as much as he could have.
I dropped my stance on Arctic after he and other people had poked holes in Xatalos' argument, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. Then I made a case against trumpetarn and have stuck with it when bandwaggoning you would have been the easiest thing in the world. I'm not entirely sure why you think I am so quick to drop my stances (especially confused about the plurality there I have only changed my vote once and that was due to a reasoned counter-argument).
I appreciate that you haven't jumped on my bandwagon as well, but that doesn't mean you're not one of the three. There's already enough votes on me to pretty much guarantee it, it would draw too much suspicion everyone voted me.
You may indeed be town after all, I'm only trying to be transparent until I die, it's better that I post what I think of you than for town to not know. It may help them in the end.
I think your case against Trumperarn has some merit because of how much he has lurked, but he also seems like a very newbie town in his first game, so I really don't know what to make of him really since he hasn't posted anything about me anyway. I would lean towards newbie town, but I have given that excuse to Dittert and Yomi so far, and look where that has gotten me =/
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EBWOB: That doesn't mean you're not one of the three Mafia. Should be the correct statement/context.
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@ KharadBanar
You're really going to assume that this is a giant ploy by Mafia to bus me so Dittert gains credibility? I find that to be totally without basis and completely WIFOM on what Mafia would do. Fine, don't exclude it from your thinking, but do you really honestly believe that is the most likely scenario here? What about that we're both town and it's a mis-lynch, that is not likely at all to you? Why are you associating that Dittert and I are both Mafia in your minds so strongly? You've posted in the past about your suspicions about Dittert, but this is the first time you've linked us together as the Mafia team, and that logic is absurd and full of WIFOM.
Also, you post holes in my case about BroodKingEXE but you seem to gloss over the correlation between 8. and 9. So you're willing to let him slide for admitting that he saw nothing suspicious or wrong about anything else, but when Acrofales makes his case, he's allowed to go from 0 suspicion to voting me? So again, BroodKingEXE is not willing to make his own case, but he will eagerly follow anothers lead? Does this not strike you as scummy?
You also think the Acrofales case on me is the key point in my demise, okay, I will go write a rebuttal to that now.
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@ ArcticFox
You're right it probably wasn't worth waiting 42 hours over, but I can't help that now.
I'm going with my read on BroodKingEXE over everyone else at this point I suspect because I feel he is the most dangerous. Did you not look at points 8 and 9 in my list? How can you explain that behavior, I flat out asked him if he had any suspicions of me last night, he said no. This morning, I read that Acrofales has posted a case on me, and that allows BroodKingEXE to sheep the vote and say, "Why yes I have had my suspicions of willz22912 all along!"
I am pointing out that Dittert made several plays that can be concluded as newbie, such as the rng proposal, his defense saying that he's a newb, and the tunneling on me. I do not feel the same way towards BroodKingEXE because he has not been firm in his convictions or his voting patterns. He constantly waffles towards the easiest lynch and he is unwilling to show what he really thinks. I at least can respect Dittert for being decisive in his opinion, even if it's going to get me killed. I can not say the same for BroodKingEXE because he had ample opportunity to support Dittert's case but chose not to. If BroodKingEXE really thought I was Mafia then why didn't he just say so last night, he had enough evidence from my arguing with Dittert. Instead he chose to let the work fall on Acrofales. He screams bandwagoner and trying to blend in, far more so than anyone else.
You may also be right in that I finalized my opinion on him partly because he is one of the ones voting me more so than the others that I pointed out as scummy. I probably can't help that in being objective, I kind of want to get rid of the person who helped seal my fate first.
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On April 14 2012 03:06 KharadBanar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 02:55 willz22912 wrote: @ KharadBanar
You're really going to assume that this is a giant ploy by Mafia to bus me so Dittert gains credibility? I find that to be totally without basis and completely WIFOM on what Mafia would do. Fine, don't exclude it from your thinking, but do you really honestly believe that is the most likely scenario here? What about that we're both town and it's a mis-lynch, that is not likely at all to you? Why are you associating that Dittert and I are both Mafia in your minds so strongly? You've posted in the past about your suspicions about Dittert, but this is the first time you've linked us together as the Mafia team, and that logic is absurd and full of WIFOM.
Also, you post holes in my case about BroodKingEXE but you seem to gloss over the correlation between 8. and 9. So you're willing to let him slide for admitting that he saw nothing suspicious or wrong about anything else, but when Acrofales makes his case, he's allowed to go from 0 suspicion to voting me? So again, BroodKingEXE is not willing to make his own case, but he will eagerly follow anothers lead? Does this not strike you as scummy?
You also think the Acrofales case on me is the key point in my demise, okay, I will go write a rebuttal to that now. About the bus: I don't have 100% scum reads on both you and Dittert. The fact that you're my strongest reads doesn't mean there is not actually a higher possibility of only one of you being scum, where this isn't a bus but either a scum member accusing a townie or a townie being right in his speculation. I just see a high possibility of there being a scum between the two of you. If you manage to explain your motivations behind the things Acrofales pointed out about you, I'd probably be willing to take my vote off you, because yomi and HiroPro then seem more scummy to me at this point, so please go ahead.
Can you be more specific about what you want me to explain? Acrofales case is really long and I don't know what exactly you're looking for. I'd like to be as transparent as I can even if I still die, because I know this will help town. Please respond with what you wish to know and I will answer as best I can.
I can already say that I have not played nearly as well as I thought, and I agree with my hypocrisy in calling for transparency yet holding onto my own opinions. Other than that part of his post, I was overly defensive against Dittert because he wouldn't leave me alone, that got me angry and asking him why he keeps insisting that I'm Mafia without reinforcing his case when I asked him what I have done to draw his suspicions. Wouldn't you be annoyed at someone if they were saying you were calling for their mis-lynch when I did nothing of the sort, and that was the basis of his original argument and the one he just used? That is a flat out lie, yet he seems to not realize it himself, then he goes on about how his RL is important and he has no time to play this game as much as others. Fine, RL obviously takes precedence, but that means in his limited time playing Mafia, he won't switch off accusing me constantly, he won't look at anyone else, but I can't call him out on it because he doesn't have enough time, that's part of why I was angry as well.
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I am dead, I have 5+ votes on me, Dittert won't switch, BroodKingEXE obviously won't switch because I made a case against him, Acrofales just posted that he won't switch.
That's 3 guaranteed, and it's probably not worth it to change the vote now. The best move for town is to confirm my lynch and flip and see who voted for me and while, along with getting my opinion on ANYTHING or ANYONE before I die since I won't be able to speak again after tonight.
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That's up to KharadBanar, vonKlaust, and Xatalos.
I'm obviously going to be willing to stay alive, but who could I support to lynch in my place without looking desperate?
The two votes not in yet are the lurkers.
ArcticFox thinks Yomi is still Mafia, I personally disagree with this, I won't support that lynch.
imallinson, you think trumpetarn is a valid lynch, I think he's a newb town still, but he is also the most inactive and lurker of us all and hardly a benefit to town. I would be willing to switch my vote to him, but that still wouldn't get him lynched over me, and would reek of desperation.
No I'm content with my fate, just going to try and be as useful to town as I can and then hopefully see you guys win in the end.
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@ KharadBanar.
Okay, I accused people of picking easy targets at the time because the only people under suspicion were: Dittert for his RNG proposal, and ArcticFox by Xatalos. I defended both of these people because of the weak reasoning used in attacking them.
I did not really pick easy targets without explanation, if you look through my filter earlier in the game, I posted many questions to many of the lurkers and told them to post their top town/scum reads in order for them to be more active. I was waiting to see how they would respond, and I was keeping the time difference in mind(since we have a lot of EU folks) in order to give them enough time to post.
The distinction here is that I never called out anyone for suspicious behavior other than lurking. I just told them to post, how is that picking easy targets without explanation? I am a hypocrite about transparency, but don't accuse me of calling suspicions on anyone.
The only suspicions I posted were about imallinson's readiness to support Xatalos (which Xatalos even commented on was worth looking at) because I couldn't get a firm read on anyone that early into the game. I took a look at BroodKingEXE's filter midway through the day and decided that he wasn't being firm enough in his stances and that sounded scummy to me. Later that night, myself Dittert and BroodKingEXE were the only ones posting and BroodKingEXE continued to post comments about me without any opinion on them.
My case against BroodKingEXE shouldn't be considered OMGUS, he has been flaky multiple times without any concrete opinion on anything, he always follows the opinions of others. He claims in his defense of my case that he just waited to post to make a decision in the morning, conveniently after Acrofales makes his case and everyone voted for me? He just said the night before that he did not find any other post I made suspicious, why not at least say I have some suspicions of you but I'll wait till I hear more? He made a 180 in opinion and you guys are letting him get away with it, the only mistake I made was waiting too long on my opinions and not calling him out earlier.
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On April 14 2012 03:43 KharadBanar wrote: willz: This is not what I meant when I said "If you're really a townie don't gg yet" >_> I think you still look pretty scummy after Acrofales' post, but if you manage to explain that behaviour I'm willing to vote someone else. If you are "content with your fate" of getting lynched, I view that as an admission to not being able to properly explain yourself, and it makes you feel scummier. Just putting that thought process out there.
You need to look at the math I already posted. I am dead by voting, but that doesn't mean I'm not posting. My alignment flip will show the town that I really was green all along, and that the people pushing my case made a mistake. I'm not going to convince anyone I'm not Mafia until then, but I know I have been right all along.
Don't say that I'm content with my fate and that is an admission to not being able to explain myself. I already stated why I'm already dead, I could just shut up entirely and not contribute but I'm not doing that am I?
Acrofales, Dittert, BroodKingEXE are three votes that won't switch for various reasons, that means I won't be able to save myself even if I wanted to, so I'm not even going to try and waste time trying to change the vote, and I'm trying to be as productive as I can until I get lynched.
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On April 14 2012 03:43 BroodKingEXE wrote: @dittert Even if you are dead, a townie would look for scum. If you really are a townie build a case against someone else. You've been asking questions all game, why not use the errors you found when you asked those to guide your suspicions.
Would building a case against someone else convince you to not vote me? Then why should I bother building another case when I believe you're really Mafia?
I've already stated my suspicions are on HiroPro (mostly for lurking), imallinson (for readily following Xatalos, although he has rebutted this, and I'm not so sure of this) and KharadBanar, who I feel is under-performing considering how he played in Newbie VI. His explanation for this is that he needs time to ramp up and his D1 isn't very good.
Yomi: I feel he was overly defensive, a trait that newbie town usually display (he also posted this was his first game as well) He thinks Dittert is still Mafia, which I don't agree with, but that doesn't make him Mafia in my eyes. Still newbie town to me.
Dittert: I feel he is going to be unhappy with himself when I flip green, but hopefully the town won't lynch him in response. He tunneled me and he played poorly as town, but that still means he's town in my mind.
Xatalos: I feel the most town vibe from him for his willingness to at least start discussion with his case on ArcticFox, but he needs to step up his game since he has experience from GoT
Acrofales: Also played in GoT Mafia, probably one of the more experienced newbs, have a good town vibe about him, his case against me is not without cause, and has good logic in it. I cannot blame him for reaching his conclusions because it was my own mistakes he pointed out.
vonKlaust: Newbie town, pretty indecisive but without malicious intent, needs to be more assertive and stand by his opinions. Probably town in my eyes.
Trumpetarn: Lurking the most out of anyone, probably newbie town with the way he entered the conversation and how he presented himself.
Anything else I need to post?
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@ Xatalos
You may be right about Yomi, but I feel it's most beneficial for town at this point to confirm my lynch and get the information from my flip to decide about others.
If you are right, then when I flip green, your case on Yomi is stronger because of it. If you leave me alive and we lynch Yomi instead and he flips green as well (which I still think is possible), then you have no choice but to lynch me next and then we have 2 mis-lynches in a row.
It's better to have me martyr myself for town than to try and save me at this point.
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@ ArcticFox
Read Xatalos' argument, it makes sense. If yomi was Mafia and he knew I was the likely lynch target, and he knows I'm really town, he can post that in his defense freely without giving too much away, it gains him credibility. The only reason he would post that without any other support is if he had inside knowledge
I think Yomi is newbie because he's tunneling Dittert for the same reason Dittert is tunneling me. Do you think Dittert is Mafia for posting the original case against me and trying to lynch me? How is this any different from Yomi against Dittert? They're both newb towns tunneling everyone.
I read through Acrofale's case on me and I see the logic in it because I'm reading an unbiased version of my accounts from a different perspective. I cannot argue against it, it makes sense, I suppose he could be Mafia making an easy case because of previous circumstance (Dittert/BroodKingEXE responses to me) but that's up to you to figure out since I won't be around now will I?
What do you want me to do, save myself by changing my vote to Yomi? And what happens if he flips red, all is forgiven and everyone will overlook my behavior? What happens if he flips green, then how do I explain myself? I'm in a lose-lose situation personally, and the best thing I can do for town is let my lynch go through and flip green to prove I was town.
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##Unvote: BroodKingEXE ##Vote: Willz22912
This discussion is now pointless for me, and I'm a little sad/angry at myself for my poor play for letting it come to this point, so I'm going to leave now. I've stated all I can, I'll keep up with the thread and hopefully see a town victory. Town, look at who voted me, but focus on BroodkingEXE please, ignore Dittert, he doesn't know any better.
I suppose you should also look at Acrofales for making an easy case against me and then peacing out. GL
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@ Xatalos, it wouldn't free me from suspicion, I've been arguing in defense of Yomi the whole time, a 180 like that to save myself could only be seen as a possible bus attempt by a Mafia to save themselves. It's too self serving.
Don't worry about it, if you are right you can get him D2.
@ ArcticFox I could be wrong couldn't I about Yomi? I could be defending a Mafia unintentionally and being blind to the possibility, so I shouldn't tunnel my thinking. However, Xatalos's case against Yomi relies on my flip being green to give it weight, ergo I must die.
Do you really want me to vote Yomi? Fine, but I don't see how it's going to help how people think of me, I have 0 credibility left with town, it's really pointless to keep me alive, but okay whatever. ##Unvote: Willz22912 ##Vote: Yomi
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Wow, after what happened earlier today when I was the most likely lynch candidate, I pretty much felt like giving up, which is why I made the vote on myself. I was also pretty just bummed in general and didn't really care about how the game was going to go since I assumed no one would do something as crazy as BroodKingEXE just did.
Still this leaves me with a shitty situation. I have little to no credibility (I made town wait around for so long for a bad case against a bad townie in the end)
Trying to read scum behavior after that lynch vote is also going to super hard. I did not expect the majority to change within 30m to BroodKingEXE after he made that one terrible post. It screamed scumslip yes, but now we know that Mafia had a mis-lynch practically given to them. It's highly likely that all the Mafia members are in that lynch somewhere because it was so easy to justify. Makes the rest of the town's job harder.
As to my play, I will try and step it up and be more transparent from now on, I promise. If I don't feel free to lynch me, but at this point I have to do a major rethinking of everything. I was expecting to be the lynch target on D1, and now I find myself alive but my proposed target dead in my place (and a town to boot). I won't be around for much of this night, I will be busy hanging out with family, I might be home in time for the N1 rollover, but that's not a guarantee.
I'm also going to try to tone down my post count as well, I can easily see that I have the largest filter, but it's mostly full of fluff at this point. Being active is good, spamming the thread as I have been doing is bad. This is not an excuse for me to lurk, I'm merely saying I will be posting less (and hopefully better) responses. Thanks for keeping me alive town, I'll do my best to earn this second chance.
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Okay I have to leave soon to hang out with family, but a few thoughts before I go. This is a re-evaluation of people based on what they've posted now and I have pretty much thrown out all my D1 reads for a fresh start.
Xatalos, I may have played more towny than Yomi when I was on the chopping block, but that shouldn't let you ignore me in comparison to Yomi. You made your case against Yomi but a lot of it is just different playstyle, if I wasn't trying to play so positive compared to Yomi, I'd easily be the top suspect in your mind as well. You have been tunneling on Yomi a bit too much imo without looking at others, and a lot of your case against Yomi does rely on what alignment I flip, so if you want to lynch Yomi D2, you may as well have me vig shotted so I flip town and help your case. Also, this constant talk about blue actions is extremely ironic considering that was what you accused ArcticFox in the very beginning, irony much?
Dittert, I thought before you were a newbie town since you did post this was your first game ever, now you're angry as well and for what reason? You already stated you have a RL, if you don't have time to play the game I can't hold that against you, but coming in well after everything was decided and saying, "I was right all along" seems very arrogant and without basis. It's easy to say that BroodKingEXE was town all along when all you had to do was read the Night post and confirm it. You had as much information as everyone else did about what his alignment really was, and he ended up getting himself lynched for that poor decision.
For everyone targeting my previous behaviors, I don't have time right now to respond to all of it, but when Xatalos made his case against ArcticFox, he clearly stated I am "80% confident you are Mafia". At the time, between that and Dittert, he was the most "suspicious" player on the field and the only one with a solid case against. I saw numerous people subtly agree with Xatalos's case without really posting their own opinion, aka bandwagoning. I destroyed that case and called out the people who were following along without thinking (namely at this point imallinson, but he addressed this) The reason behind looking at bandwagoned votes is that it's very easy for a Mafia when presented with a mis-lynch of a town to follow behind without having to state their own opinion because of the blatant behavior of said town player.
Acrofales made a very good case against me, I will not defend myself saying he did not. Therefore, I presume that any Mafia that thinks I have a good shot of getting lynched will jump on my bandwagon without needing to clarify themselves. This was primarily why I picked Brood out of anyone else to make my case against, he has clearly waffled all game, in the end he was just a bad town and not a real scum (even though he exhibited plenty of scum behavior in hindsight)
Also, my mopyness and self vote was readily explained if you read the situation. I was being lynched, I felt it was mathematically impossible to get out of it, so I wanted to just vote myself and confirm it, and then give my flip to town giving weight to the statements made by Xatalos, and myself when I posted what I could before the lynch. Contrast this behavior to Brood, the least he could have done if he was set to be lynched was to post anything in terms of reads that could be useful, but instead he just keeps trying to defend himself. Which do you think is better town play, accepting your fate and trying to be useful or continuing to futilely defend yourself and don't post anything else useful?
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2012 19:55 vonKlaust wrote:While I must admit that I'm not the biggest fan of Ditterts' case on Willz, I think it had one good point, namely this: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote: If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. This comment by Willz is about as strange as Broods slip. Why in heavens name would town want to lynch town? Willz answers this in a post aimed at Dittert. Here's what he wrote: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 02:58 willz22912 wrote: No, town willing to kill other town is fine as long as you can find out the real mafia who are bandwagoning on a town for a easy mis-lynch. You rarely(never seen it) win a game of Mafia without friendly fire and mis-lynching innocent town because they played poorly, if you play poorly as town (which I've already gone over what not to do) then you deserve to get lynched. Numbers game means with 9 town and 3 mafia, you can lose up to 6 town until it's over without killing a single mafia (3-3 situation forces whichever team to have the fastest 3 votes in plurality) This is why I'm against Xatalos' case, he's making a case on another player and drawing out way too many bandwagoners who are willing to readily adopt his case because it's the only "strong" one out there. Newbie town are scared to voice their opinion so they latch onto a strong leader, but then if that leader is really mafia, then we have a bad situation for town.
There is a veeery big difference between townies willing to kill other townies and townies mislynching other townies on purpose to punish bad play. Willz however seem to think that delibretly killing people that you suspect as being town can be a good thing, because of the reason that we get information from the votes. At the same time he claims he does not like Xatalos play since it "draws out too many bandwagoners". If we want to lynch townies to analyze bandwagons(or when anyone get lynched at all for that matter), the amount of votes on that townie is gonna be pretty large. We're unlikely to get lynches with 2-3 votes. I can't see how Xatalos is doing anything bad if you at the same time hold the position that it's worth to lynch townies to get information. Also I'm curious about this: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote: Numbers game means with 9 town and 3 mafia, you can lose up to 6 town until it's over without killing a single mafia (3-3 situation forces whichever team to have the fastest 3 votes in plurality) This is why I'm against Xatalos' case, he's making a case on another player and drawing out way too many bandwagoners who are willing to readily adopt his case because it's the only "strong" one out there. How does these number have anything to do with his stance Xatalos' case? I would like Willz to explain this. And while I'm at it I would like to post a note on a similar subject: Xatalos, I think you have to chill with your accusations. In my opinion your cases so far have been pretty weak. This plus the fact that you alot of the time seem to have 100% confidence in your reads actually spreads more confusion than helpfullness. Your reasoning is weak at times and in my opinion you base way too much of your reasoning on meta and your experiences from your previous games. I actually think that Yomi is right when he says that you are too suspicious of people. Sure, you should call people on their bullshit, but you seem to get convinced of people being scum for any little wierd thing they post. For example in your recent case against Yomi, one of your key points is that he has said that he thinks Willz is innocent like three times troughout the thread. I don't even think this is wierd, but you seems to think that this is highly suspicious. Sure, you can argue that he doesn't really have an explanation, but so far pretty much no one as far as i remember have actually provided any evidence on their town reads exept for saying stuff like "I think he's town because his posts seem mostly pro-town". This isn't saying more than Yomis oneliners about Willz, since it's pretty obvious that anyone who thinks that anyone is townie does this based on that they think said person have acted pro-town. Instead of constructing cases on these kind of facts this early, I think it's better to save them for later. In my opinion we can't really make cases yet constructed on who voted for who and who thought who was innocent. However, if you see a pattern later in the game I think that could definetly be usefull. But right now, I think it's too vague. Note that this isn't saying that I necesserely think that Yomi is town. I still think he is more likely to be mafia than most people in the thread. He has posted very little of value, and has only started to make good posts after he was voted on. I think it's a bit wierd that he wrote so few(and mostly bad) posts early in the thread, but when he was voted on he started to post alot(he posted pretty much as much text last night(EU), as he had posted since the game began. Also, he seems pretty reasonable in his defence, and in my opinion he didn't seem very reasonable earlier. I'm hoping that he will keep up the posting, and hopefully try to do more analysis.
The questions you are asking are missing the context. I was arguing with Dittert as you can clearly state about the detriment of mis-lynches. You are also looking at this in hindsight. Why did everyone jump on the Brood bandwagon for 1 really bad post when Yomi or I were still set to be lynched? Arctic made a comment on this, saying that the cases against Yomi or myself couldn't have held so much weight if so many people were willing to abandon them.
Notice my wording as well, I said sacrifice, ie I wasn't going to kill him, or lynch him myself, but I would not defend him anymore if he continued to be scummy in other people's minds and created a bandwagon against himself. I would rather analyze the people who were willing to jump on a Dittert bandwagon(which was a lot of people and is a lot of people still) to see who would be the likely mafia in that case.
My thing with bandwagons is also to have competing candidates, the debate between lynching Yomi or myself yesterday was good, it shows that not everyone was 100% on one person or another, making it harder for Mafia to hide. I was worried at the time Xatalos made that case that ArcticFox would be the only candidate for everyone's vote and that it was a bad case but people could still sheep it without thinking. How are we likely to gain information if 7+ people vote one person? As it stands, can you make anything out about the Brood vote? The instant majority can be explained because of his bad post, so you can't really tell if Mafia jumped on it or if it was all town, but considering Acrofales, myself, Dittert, and Trumpet never changed their vote to Brood ( or voted), you have 7 people voting the same person and 4 people not changing their vote at all for various reasons.
In hindsight it would have been better to continue voting Yomi or myself to at least ascertain whether what we were saying could be verified. Instead of vig shooting Yomi as people called for, people could have shot Brood or at least saved him till the next day. Again though, this is all hindsight, and I wish I was actually around during the vote instead of giving up.
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On April 15 2012 01:32 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 23:51 willz22912 wrote: Xatalos, I may have played more towny than Yomi when I was on the chopping block, but that shouldn't let you ignore me in comparison to Yomi. You made your case against Yomi but a lot of it is just different playstyle, if I wasn't trying to play so positive compared to Yomi, I'd easily be the top suspect in your mind as well. You have been tunneling on Yomi a bit too much imo without looking at others, and a lot of your case against Yomi does rely on what alignment I flip, so if you want to lynch Yomi D2, you may as well have me vig shotted so I flip town and help your case.
I want you to explain this part right now. Your logic here is so horrible I can't even decide what to think about it. 1) If you are town, why do you want to die so badly? You can't be 100% certain I am town or 100% certain yomi is Mafia, but you CAN be 100% certain of your own alignment. So, if you actually are town and want to achieve a town victory, why would you ever want to kill the only 100% confirmed town player (yourself)? True, it would give us some new information, but killing yomi would give us equally much information. Even if you're not confident that yomi is Mafia, at the very least he is infinitely more likely to be Mafia than yourself (if you are town yourself). 2) You seem pretty hesitant about killing yomi, yet you want to get yourself killed so that you can "help my case against yomi". I don't see any kind of logic here. Besides, you flipping town wouldn't help my case against yomi especially greatly. It wouldn't make any sense for you two to be Mafia & Mafia anyway (why would yomi casually mention you are town in that case?). Your town flip wouldn't make me significantly more suspicious of yomi than I already am, and then we would have wasted our only Vigi shot on a townie who wants to get himself killed. If you are town, you are 100% confident in your own innocence, so there is zero reason to call for a Vigi shot on yourself. Overall, I don't think you are Mafia based on this, just a townie with a death wish and horrible logic. At least I can't imagine any situation where Mafia would want to get Vigi shot.
My logic is that I think your case against Yomi is bad, and you have only tunneled him without looking at other people. He may be your top scum read but if you can't get a consensus from the rest of the town your read has no weight. If you really want to tunnel Yomi and continue to do so, your case relies on the fact that Yomi did not defend me sufficiently as a fellow town enough.
Both myself and Yomi changed our votes in order to save ourselves, both town or Mafia would make this move. We both know for sure that our self (as in Yomi knows Yomi is town, I know I am town) so 100% read is better than a could be wrong on the other person. I think Yomi is more town than you think, but I was still willing to switch my vote to him to save myself because I know I am town. You can't use this reasoning to explain whether or not he is Mafia. Regarding my death wish, do you not see that Dittert isn't convinced of my innocence, ArcticFox still has his suspicions, and Acrofales posted the strong case against me in the first place? Thats 3/11 players left who have no inclination to believe in my towniness, meaning I have little to no credibility as town to push a Mafia even if I do find one and make a case. At best the other players see me as neutral, but probably most of them still have a scummy read to me. It would waste another day's time lynching me, the better option would be to vig shot me, even though I know I am town, because a dead townie in my position is better than a scummy looking town alive. I've stated this before when referring to Dittert, a bad town is worth sacrificing rather than keeping him alive. Case in point: BroodKingEXE, I for one don't miss him, even though he was a town, because he pretty much screwed us D1 with getting any information from either Yomi or myself's lynch. None of his filter contains any useful information, and it's his own fault he got himself lynched when he could have easily stayed silent. I don't think many people would miss me as well if I was suddenly killed by Mafia or vig shotted, so that's my logic.
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EBWOB: At best the other players see me as neutral, but probably most of them still have a scummy read on me. Changed bolded part.
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@ Xatalos, in the interest of actually producing a better discussion. Do you have any other scum reads on anyone else besides Yomi? Since you know, there are 3 Mafia? I for one see HiroPro as a heavy lurker who hasn't contributed very much and showed up very late to the Brood lynch when it was already pretty decided. For what it's worth I feel he's someone to keep a closer eye on for more suspicious behavior.
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