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The reason for my lurkiness and "willingness to hide under the radar" is due to me simply being overloaded with schoolwork these couple of days. Thankfully my schedule ahead seems pretty clear so should be able to post more.
First off regarding the Toad/VE/WBG thing today.
I find Toad's case on VE to be bad. Honestly, I fully agree with him that Toad being "confirmed" is complete bullcrap. Its the most flimsy logic I have seen, and I completely do not agree with it. VE has pointed out why the night kills doesnt come remotely close to explaining why he considers himself "confirmed", and is so heavily based on wifom. Honestly, it was pretty unlikely last night for medics to actually listen to Toad last night, considering that VE and WBG had more thread presence as opposed to him. Jackal didnt exactly look too townie either, and I dont see why this "confirms" him.
His 2nd point honestly doesnt mean much to me either. First off its completely based off an assumption that hassy is mafia. Whilst this is a certainly likely case, I dont like how hes basing his townieness on an unflipped player. It also makes no sense stating that VE avoided the case on purpose, and only jumped on when the two of you (toad/wbg) went onto him. Honestly if anything, I feel this makes Toad look a lot scummier. Toad had been constantly proclaiming that Hassy is scummy, yet does not bother to push a hassy lynch whatsoever? I dont see why he had to wait for bugs to proclaim that hassy was scummy. Couldnt he simpy present his case, attmept to get support for it, and switch back to jannan or whoever if it failed to garner votes? I fail to see how he can apply this sort of reasoning onto VE, yet completely ignore the fact that it applies to him too - in fact, if he announced it 6 hours beforehand, why the hell didnt he give it a go?
Toad's logic I find to be really bad, and honesrly him being confirmed is a hugeeeeee stretch to say the least.
Reaching the main part of the actual case, his actual case on VE is as follows.
- Said that Toad/Hassy looked bad, yet voted Jannan.
- VE supposedly thought Toad was "unreadable"
I personally feel that VE has suffeicently explained his supposed scummy actions in his defense earlier. VE seems to be genuienly annoyed at the situation, and I find Toad's case and selfproclamation of his townieness to be absolute bullshit. Which is why im not going to support a VE lynch today.
Which brings us to Toad. Honestly I thought his posting was alright during day 1, and felt that the primary reason a large portion of his posts seemed to be about himself was due to the fact that gonzaw was tunneling the hell out of him, which is why I didnt mention him earlier, as I felt no reason to give out a town read at that point when he wasnt even close to getting lynched. However, what I seriously do not like about him is this case of his. Its so dammed bad imo, and hes stretching so hard to look townie with his claims of "confirmed town". I am still rather undecided if hes just being bad with his logic, or if hes scum trying to push a misclynch. Im personally leaning scum at this point, will look at his meta after dinner and decide from there.
My major suspision from here is actually on bugs. I have already mentioned why I feel the case is horribad, and I find it wierd as fuck that bugs decided to just jump on it, and call VE scum even though he had been hard defending VE earlier in the night, saying that he was most probably town. What changed that? The primary thing was that no "vets" (besides Jackal but hes not in this love triangle so lets forget him for a moment) had died, and that both VE and WBG were still alive.
It makes 0 sense to simply assume that VE is scum based off that - why does he even feel that way? Scum not shooting the "vets" actually seems like a pretty excellent move at this point - look at the amount of fucking WIFOM it has created. I refuse to believe that bugs would actually swallow this crap, which is why I believe he is scum.
Of course this also applies to most of the people that have jumped on the wagon so quickly, but I feel that we ought to resolve this crap today. We need to clear out this problem now, and its highly likely theres at least one scum in the three of them. One thing at a time, and for now town's pirority should be on this thing. Of course lurkers are going to be a problem, and im relatively most of them are coasting through the game, pussying out and going to lynch one of them, even if said lurker flips scum, is going to put us in a similar position as today, doubting VE,toad and WBG. Settling this crap RIGHT NOW is a pirority for town, and I am not going to support any lynch other than one of these three.
Im heading out for dinner now, my vote will be placed soon. I strongly feel bugs is scum at the moment, and want a lynch of him. Toad doesnt actually seem like a bad lynch considering how bad his logic has been, but I need to take a look at his meta and see if he does this kind of shit usually.
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I will be, as said, away for a while. Will respond to anything else later, need to have dinner.
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On April 11 2012 18:14 VisceraEyes wrote:BH is definitely looking bad to me. The last game we were in together (as town) he took AS active of a stance as I did in trying to lead town (at least, when he showed up he did  ). I've said before that I think he looks different this game, and I'm pretty sure by now that it's because he's scum. I want zelblade to post more. I want a lot of people to post more. gonzaw isn't one of them. What do you agree with in Toad's case Gonzaw? What part of it resonates with you? Is it the part where he calls himself confirmed town seventeen times or is it the part where he says I have a read on him in spite of saying he's unreadable? Because that's literally all his case is. Literally. I'm sorry I wasn't as active as you liked D1, and I've promised that wouldn't be the case since I've returned...and since I've returned that has been the case. I don't know what else you expect from me except to find scum, and that's what I've done. I fucking guarantee Toad is scum. What else do you want from me Gonzaw? What else do you want from me ANYONE IN TOWN? This wagon on me is dumb, and got way big way fast. Scum ARE on it. I don't know how many, but it's a decent cross-section of town and I'm not on it, so scum are most assuredly on my wagon already. I attest that one is Toad and if his stupidity persists, Bugs too.
I agree with you on BH, he does not seem to have an interest in scum hunting this game. His case against sputnik was hardly pushed, instead he just took the time to insult sputnik directly and then bicker with fourface over wanting to sheep WBG's blue directing.
Compare this to his filter in Purgatory (filter), he was like a dog with a bone when it came to Erandorr and RebirthOfLegend: he wouldn't let it go. He beat the town over the head with his case until they finally did what he wanted.
His 'analysis' of Janaans filter (which only appeared after being prodded), was a half assed two lines which finished with a 'he looks like a reasonable lynch to me'.
BH looks very scummy to me.
What id really like to see out of you, VE, is an actual case against Toad. Not the weak case you posted on day 1 about him saying he's 'trying to look townish' and apparently being defensive. That case was not convincing at all, I'd like to see something more substantial which actually shows why Toad is mafia, even though I am fairly sure that is not the case.
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Bless you zelblade, REASON ISN'T LOST!!
I have renewed hope for this town in spite of having a superfast wagon shoved forcibly into my anus.
Thank you sir.
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You got it Adam, that was on my to do list anyway.
I'm gonna go make some coffee and smoke a cigarette. Expect it within the hour.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
WI'm posting this on my phone so bear with the spelling mistakes please. Cat fingers and all
Toad has been abrasive, irritable and very in-your-face with a lot of people. A lot of people have called him wishy-washy and trying to cover it with long posts. Personally, I see that as lawyering it up, and thought his train was pretty clear. Maybe its the Dickensian in me.
However, I am pretty happy with a johnnywup lynch. His sheeping was something I pointed out last night, and he has done nothing to make me change my mind. He might as well change half his posts to "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir"
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what are you lords and ladies lynching ve for?
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I am voting for him based on Toad's case against him making sense to me. However, his defense has been strong, and I would reconsider based on his case against Toad, as one or the other of them are scum imo.
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I agree that johnnywup is suspicious. But can we please focus on getting the whole VE/WBG/Toad thing settled first? I am fine with discussion on scummy people, since limiting discussion to just this incident is bad, but can we please stop trying to push the lynch today somewhere else?
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prplhz any thoughts about the VE/WBG/Toad thing?
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Perhaps a Johnny lynch today, then we will have more info to make a decision about VE/Toad tomorrow?
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What info will johnny bring us that would help us make a decision? His flip doesnt mean much, considering how useless he has been all game.
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Not johnny as such, but more time and what happens during the night.
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We have plenty of time as of now. If we proceed to lynch johnny im 100% sure scum is just going to leave the 3 of them and the major talkers regarding this (gonzaw mostly) all alive and we would be at the same place, and just hit a few random townies. We still need to come to a decision regarding this some point in the game, and I rather now than later. Focus on one thing at a time imo, most of us seem to believe at least one of them is scum, so why not settle this crap first?
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The Toadesstern Case
Going back to actually make a case against Toad, I found that I shouldn't have been so quick to just accept Toad's eccentricities as "just Toad". In this case I intend to show you how Toadesstern has not only outed himself as scum, but done so in such a thorough and insidious manner that it's incredible no one but Katina has even looked at him until now.
I intend to do this in 2 Phases. Phase 2 will follow Phase 1 in a separate post. Phase 1 will focus on his posts leading up to the Hassy/Janaan wagon, and Phase 2 will cover his actions once a part of the wagon.
If I'm feeling feisty, I might look at N1, but I probably won't need to.
Phase 1 - Indecision and Broken Promises - In which we see Toad's complete unwillingness to scumhunt, his wishy-washy nature and his complete lack of actual reads.
On April 08 2012 19:35 Toadesstern wrote:Sup guyses, here I am. Anything important going on other than noobs bashing each other? I'm referring to that Risen vs ET conversation I just read and I don't know what to make of Risen yet. I have no idea what Risen is trying to achieve as he clearly is stretching when talking about / with ET imo. However I really liked this post he did: Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:14 Risen wrote:On April 08 2012 14:46 Katina wrote:
EchelonTee, I have made the observation that your posting is different from jubjub. I don't remember you swearing or USING CAPS TO EMPHASIZE A POINT. Last game you were active but very laid back and you turned out to be Mafia. That scratches out one person I have to worry about being mafia. The fuck? How does that make him instantly town? The only way you could make the judgement this early is if you KNEW he wasn't town. As in, hi scumI'm off to bed at this point. Hopefully the euros will get in this thread and keep it active. I mean, I don't like the post itself but the message itself is okayish. What Katina said is wrong and if that's not some kind of joke it's definitively weird and has to be pointed out. So I'd really like to have less of those "yo dude, I didn't accuse you in the first place - sure you did - no I didn't - WHAT?!?!" posts as they're pretty useless (useless like wbg's vote) and more of those "that's stupid, stop it" posts (as long as they've got at least a little tiny bit of an explanation so everyone can understand what's going on in your head) and if someone keeps doing stupid things although we told him to stop it we lynch him the next day. Pretty easy. And yeah, you know I agree with VE when he said shooting/lynching lurkers is a nice thing to do. I agree that I don't like to lynch them early on because that gives so little information and it's really easy for mafia to just hop on lurker-wagons which essentially would give us 0 information. Of course that only works if we actually have vigs, so if there's no dead lurkers by the end of day 2 or day3 we might have to overthink that one. Someone else here right now? I just woke up an hour ago or so and I don't like pretending to talk to someone when I really am not. If there is someone else around here: Remember how I said I'd like to shoot VE pregame if I end up being a vig? Right now I'd shoot wbg instead if I had a gun, thoughts anyone?
Here we see Toadestern's superior scumhunting abilities at work. The first thing that struck me about this post is how everything is wishywashy about it. In Risen vs ET, his stance is that he doesn't know what to make of Risen yet. Doesn't know what he's trying to achieve and he's clearly stretching but he likes one or two of his posts. He likes shooting/lynching lurkers, but actually would rather just shoot them, but you know, if they're still around by the end of day 2 or 3 or whatever...
Also would shoot WBG. No reasons given...but he'd like your thoughts on it!
On April 08 2012 21:18 Toadesstern wrote:A fine morning to you as well Hassybaby. Other than my stomach aching I'm fine! I'd actually say Risen and WBG are the only ones being suspicious for me right now. I don't think ET is that weird. However I liked the one post from Risen I quoted so that's given me a little townread. Right now it really feels like what I thought about VE in storm. I had a bunch of things that made me think he's town, I had a bunch of things that made me think he's mafia and I didn't know what to make of that and he ended up being 3rd party but of course this is only day1 based on a couple hours of our game :p Anyways I'm off for a little while, see you guys later. I think what we got here is a nice little platform to start the day off. I'd rather have people talk about the ET vs Risen thing or about what they think about wbg than doing the usual first 24hours of trolling and nonsense-talk to start the day because noone knows what to talk about. Of course that's only examples. Feel free to talk about my thoughts (although I probably won't answer that for the next 2 or 3 hours?) on people or whatever else you think is useful. I'm trying really hard to not spam up the game like I do once I decided the thread is useless because 50% of the people are lurking hardcore and I'd like people to try and do the same. If you got something to say say it but useless fluff to start of the day is stupid and useless!+ Show Spoiler +totally a Mr. Satan reference from DBZ
...but in his next post, suddenly Risen is suspicious? What changed? Oh, nevermind, not suspicious. He's got a townread on him from the one vote, that's right. But you know, it's only Day 1.
More wishy washy bullshit. To me, it looks like he's trying too hard to look town. look at the bolded statements. Like, most of D1s revolve around policy discussion, mechanics discussion and the initial round of accusations/suspicions. I'm not sure what he's trying to accomplish by...
1)discussing policy in the form of lynching/shooting inactives, and
2)throwing weak-ass wishy washy suspicion of Risen
...that is supposed to steer town clear of "the usual first 24 hours" but he fails miserably to accomplish it. Town still got sucked up into flame-wars and random finger pointing, so yeah, mission failed I guess.
Still isn't doing any scumhunting (i.e. asking people about their comments, getting reads on people, etc.)
On April 09 2012 01:09 Toadesstern wrote:re and reading. I'm at tunkegs point thingy right now. Which games did you count and why am I at 3 games overall played? :p You only took my most recent 3 games? (I think those would be Storm, AC and L?) But sadly that's not changing a thing since my overall stats are quite bad as well  Think I'm something like 3-5 with losing both AC and storm in a really depressing 2v1-the-last-day-fashion or something like that. I'll keep on reading, just had to point out that I found that list to be funny, especially Jackals 1-7-1 LOL :p
...back, and apparently nothing noteworthy has happened except for this totally nonsensical list that Tunkeg made. Nothing interesting at all except for this RNG Jackal lynch thing Tunkeg has suggested.
........oh wait, that's not part of his observation at all. He's not interested in the reasoning behind the list Tunkeg made, and he's not interested in saying whether he thinks Jackal is a good lynch because of it. He doesn't say anything except "Hey it doesn't have all MY wins on there!" and "lol Jackal lol"
Still waiting for some scumhunting.
On April 09 2012 01:20 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 23:59 slOosh wrote:On April 08 2012 19:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Pretty easy. And yeah, you know I agree with VE when he said shooting/lynching lurkers is a nice thing to do. I agree that I don't like to lynch them early on because that gives so little information and it's really easy for mafia to just hop on lurker-wagons which essentially would give us 0 information. Of course that only works if we actually have vigs, so if there's no dead lurkers by the end of day 2 or day3 we might have to overthink that one.
So what is your conclusion on the matter of lurkers? Lynch them or no? On April 08 2012 21:18 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd actually say Risen and WBG are the only ones being suspicious for me right now. I don't think ET is that weird.
However I liked the one post from Risen I quoted so that's given me a little townread.
Right now it really feels like what I thought about VE in storm. I had a bunch of things that made me think he's town, I had a bunch of things that made me think he's mafia and I didn't know what to make of that and he ended up being 3rd party but of course this is only day1 based on a couple hours of our game :p
To you WBG is suspicious but Kenpachi isn't? What exactly makes WBG suspicious? 1) Lynch them if we need to. I'd rather see them shot and have our lynches on people were we force people to take a stance as it's quite easy for mafia to be on a lurker-lynch and argue that that's just normal as everyibe did that as well and there's very little reasoning involved other than "the guy is a lurker". However telling people you think X is scummy, Y is scummy and Z is scummy because of *insert analysis here* and seeing all 3 flipping town is a little worrying unless you're a retarded compulsive vig like SOME PEOPLE tend to be. So that's why I'd like to have real lynches and keep the lurkers for our vig/vigs if we got some unless we don't have a legit real lynch candidate around. In that case lynching a lurker is fine as a safe option imo. 2) Funny you mentioned Kenpachi. He's the guy I'd like to shoot if I had to shoot someone other than wbg right now. But that's not because he's suspicious but because he's Kenpachi. I totally hate that "style" and he will be a controversial topic at some point in this game imo. I doubt he's going to be helpful at all all game long and he's probably going to lurk all the time while sometimes posting a couple of oneliners that have nothing to do with the thread but may or may not benefit his own ability to judge people based on reactions. That's how I feel about Kenpachi and long story short = he's a null for me and I doubt he's going to go highly either the one or the other way in reads so if I had to shoot it'd be a coinflip option which is bad but really a secure shot because it's not like shooting Kenpachi is going to harm the game like shooting a Vet would if that guy turns out to be a townie.
Ahhh...finally some content. Hey....*read*...wait a second...*frantically reading*.....THERE'S NO CONTENT HERE AT ALL!
1) More Policy Discussion
2) Wha the fu...Kenpachi?! What happened to Risen? You mentioned Bugs again, but Risen has been at the top of your list with Bugs until THIS POST. And don't worry - he doesn't think Kenpachi is scum either - he clearly states that Kenpachi is "null" for him...but wants to shoot him anyway. That's horribly anti-town, because killing someone for being useless is fucking anti-town. Period.
On April 09 2012 04:33 Toadesstern wrote:
Agree there. I'm not sure what to make of Risen yet.
I think WBG is the most sucpicious right now because of his bullshit post earlier on and everyone knows that WBG hates people who are bullshitting on purpose (like Tunkeg did and like I sometimes do) so I doubt he'd do that on purpose.
However, he hasn't answered so far and it's still more than 24 hours until deadline so we should probably wait until he gets in here.
Also I'm saying it again: I really don't like the fact that Kenpachi is not doing a shit, at all. I know that's his style and all but I'm not going to give him freecard for lurking just because it's his style when we agreed that we want a at least decent activity level. Just look at his filter, even Jackal is posting more and we all know Jackal lurks like crazy no matter of alignment :p
Those two know this game, they know how to play and yet they seem not to...
Still saying Bugs is the most suspicious. Still doesn't know what to make of Risen. Still wishy washy bullshit and still not fucking scumhunting. Still commenting on invisiKenpachi.
Phase 1 summary: Toadesstern exhibits a complete lack of scumhunting until ~16 hours until lynch. Every read he's had he's waffled on up to now. Every one. Wants to avoid "usual D1 stuff" but comments heavily on lynching/shooting lurkers.
Phase 2 Preview: Pssst....he didn't "announce" that he would vote Hassy 6 hours earlier, he made a passing statement about Hassy's POTENTIAL scuminess, but waited until Bugs voted to actually vote.
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Having looked through his meta ill say that gonzaw's case on him prefectly sums up my feelings.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2012 04:32 gonzaw wrote:Final thoughts about Toad:First of all, here's his filter this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046&user=40853And here are the filters from his last 3 games as town (if I recall correctly): Storm Mafia: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=313426&user=40853Arkham City: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=305850&user=40853L: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253716&user=40853And here is the filter of the game he was scum: XLVIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212&user=40853Now that I checked his scum game from 48, one thing that caught my eye was his similar "wall of text" style when discussing mostly pointless things, like here: Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 08:09 Toadesstern wrote:On December 05 2011 07:55 vaderseven wrote:
He mentions some truth and not so good things in a mixed up manner here.
No lynches make day 1 worthless and the daytime is the time that the town has power. The town is an uninformed majority (or else the game is over) and a majority controls the lynch. In his list of 3 goals for day 1 I find goal 1 to be one that is there to just discredit aggressive players, point 2 is 100% correct and the only real goal, and point 3 is a neutral fall back thing to state as any alignment.
He says a no lynch isnt the end of the world but then makes it clear how we should never start of thinking it is a goal.
I really think he is trying to subtlety push this option. He doesn't want to get labeled as pushing it but is trying to bring up every small detail that can be viewed as positive for such a end to the day.
His 2nd goal, the one that matters the most and is the most correct, is the one that he is not doing himself. I find that to be scummy as hell. He KNOWS the reasons for needed votes and cases and yet has a RNG vote (that he declared before making was worthless via stating that RNG isn't useful). I interpreted what he said as disagreeing with me and some other people who said a no-lynch is the worst possible option for town. I think he just wants to imply that a "probably-/maybe-townielynch" is worse than a no-lynch and I just don't think so. He wants to have this option as a final save I guess, instead of lynching someone he thinks is a townie. However I think he's wrong with that one because as far as I can see a no-lynch will be ruining town-atmosphere. A no-lynch happens when there's no majority so town splits up, which does not have to be the end of the world but if there's noone telling us which side was right it will give us a 2nd day that's just the very same discussion again, with everyone who thought his choice on day1 was right thinking his choice is still right and the other way arround. If that happens town atmosphere is really screwed imo. Happened 2 games ago to me and I don't want it to happen again. I was a blue in a beginners-mini and said something along the lines "everyone please start posting, no matter if you're blue or green we need you and if you're a blue trying to hide that really gives you away". So a bunch of people came along and said I'm scum because I'm telling blues to reveal themselves and they tried to lynch me and someone else. A no-lynch happened and we had the same scenario for 3 days until I got shot on night3 by mafia. Days 1 and 2 were wasted because there was a huge fight over who of us two is actually mafia, day 3 was wasted because of a shitty decision that had nothing to do with that.
Sooooo, I don't really want that to happen again. For instance, he starts babbling about a previous game of his, which is just pointless filler. Something similar to some of his posts this game: + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2012 03:48 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 03:13 gonzaw wrote:On April 10 2012 03:00 Toadesstern wrote:
Gonzaw here is what we do and what we don't:
We do lynch people who are faking something, pretending to do think X while actually doing/saying Y.
We do not lynch random people who we think to be bad in a game were 90% of the playerbase is a mixture of some new guys. Sure there might be mafias in there but those guys could very easily be bad townies as well.
Therefore I am discrediting you. I think you're incredible wrong but I think you're honest with it. I'm fine with that for as long as I keep thinking that way.
That's the reason I think ghost is the best lynch imo. I think this guy is faking big time. What does the bolded part have to do with me? Give me your thoughts on Janaan and VE NOW! Really, me and other people find you suspicious because you don't post your thoughts on current events nor take stances, and here you are continuing to avoid posting your thoughts on current events nor taking stances. Are you kidding me? You asked like 6 guys what they think about me and EVERYONE said they don't think anything you said about me is alignment indicating. The bolded part has something to do with you because it apparently shows you have no idea what to look for when scumhunting because you think guy-plays-bad = mafia. You said me discrediting you while saying you're looking townish is something weird when it's actually not at all weird. You want me to OMGUS just because of your case that everyone in here agrees is bullshit? Would that make me look townish in your book? I hope not and I desperatly hope that you take a step back an overthink your stance here. You've been tunneling me all day long with no support at all yet you keep on doing that. Again, that doesn't make you mafia, that makes you stupid and I'm going to quote my very first post Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 19:35 Toadesstern wrote:
So I'd really like to have less of those "yo dude, I didn't accuse you in the first place - sure you did - no I didn't - WHAT?!?!" posts as they're pretty useless (useless like wbg's vote) and more of those "that's stupid, stop it" posts (as long as they've got at least a little tiny bit of an explanation so everyone can understand what's going on in your head) and if someone keeps doing stupid things although we told him to stop it we lynch him the next day.
You're going that road right now if you keep on like that. So please, I still think you're a townie. Take a step back and just for once try going after someone else. You've got more than enough resistance on your case about me (as in people telling you it's bullshit / it's a null), yet you keep on and actually tell me there's a couple of people thinking the same way. About your question on VE and Janaan: I'm going to answer this question and it's going to be the last one I answer for you because you make it sound like I am trying to not answer questions (saying I dodged the question about tunkeg 10 times which is a blatant lie) when in reality I am answering every single question you guys are asking me to a point wbg said he thinks that I should ignore those things and post less. So PLEASE stop pretending I'm ignoring questions when I am not. VE looks really weird. I don't think his play is off. However I had the same feeling about him in C9++ where I said that I'd probably instalynch VE as a townie based on the fact that he changed his style so weirdly in that game. So it's the same as Tunkeg: I'm getting a weird feeling and I'm not sure if I like that or not. I'd like to give him more time as well as I think I'm pretty decent in figuring out VE. I called him mafia in Storm (SK), I called him mafia in AC (mafia) and I called him a liar who's fakeclaiming on purpose in L which made me think he'd be a mafia in that game. The liar who fakeclaimed was right but the mafia read was wrong. So again, I'd like to see some more from VE to properly understand what I'm seeing from him this game.Janaan is one of those new guys I've been talking talking about. I never played a game with him and lynching him to me looks like lynching any other scummy lurker. So I'd rather shoot him instead of lynching him as I said earlier but given we've got so many lurkers we might have to lynch into those due to cheer numbers. I'd rather lynch into people like Ghost and Hassybaby right now. Ghost because I think he's faking. Hassy because he seems to be lurking on purpose. He did 1 or 2 posts d1 (RL d1) and did nothing today. I posted something about him and that he's one of the guys I like to lynch because he's not a classical lurker but rather someone who's barely above that edge of being a lurker. He delurks and responds with Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 23:34 Hassybaby wrote:
A good day to you all. First off, FourFace, I owe you an apology. I believe my opinions of your socialistic tendencies were misleading and I feel the opposite as of now. Since that specific comment, I feel that you have started to show your loyalty t the throne, and i will continue to consider you a valuable member of the court if you do so again.
You raise interesting points about sputnik. I admit, this is my first meeting with the young man, but it does feel like his emphasis on it being his first step into the major social circles of the courts is a setup for later faux pas incidents, and then we will reference back to that little statement, then laugh it off. That irks me greatly.
I am also still not convinced by the intentions of Janaan. His responses to the passivity that he has shown this game has not convinced me. He would be my second choice in our potential imposter list.
And yes Toad, I do agree that my integration has not been at the highest of levels in this party. I assure you that will change as of this moment. which is still an empty promise he did as he never started to post something after that post except for his EBWOP to vote for someone. I don't think lynching into lurkers would be bad but I think it's like a shot into the blue to some degree. I think lynching someone like ghost or Hassy would be more of an accurate move rather than shooting into a group of something like 7 or 8 people which mafia can easily manipulate into making us lynch the wrong guys. However I have yet to see someone tell me what they think about ghost and hassy as people seem to ignore those 2 which is again, only making me feel more comfortable. On April 10 2012 21:59 Toadesstern wrote:Sup guys. lynch Hassy tomorrow, lynch VE the day after that and we win. Also here's an awesome laya-style flowchart. It's really easy and explains what to do as a DT this night considering me: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/maYpH.jpg) That being said. Still reading the last 5 pages and I'm only a little (!) pissed right now. I need someone to stop me from raging though, if people like gonzaw keep on beeing gonzaw because I'm going to find a way to punch them in the face via Internet (@GM: Don't worry that's just an euphemism for getting him killed in this game and I'm not actually talking about punching him in the face). Also since there seems to be some idiots (read: Gonzaw and VE, pretty sure VE is a mafia who's being stupid on purpose though) suggesting shooting me would be awesome I'd like people to consider me and Jackal as medic protection targets as well.Although people keep thinking about my AC performance all the time because that shit was seriously hilarious I am actually quite good as townie myself imo. Remember L? People wanted to kill me because I was right ALL THE TIME with my mafia reads and they thought I bussed 4 out of my X ( don't remember how many mafias that game had) to look townish because people didn't believe my reads were better than those people like wbg, SS and so on had. Remember the mason log with SS wbg?
In 50 I killed half of the mafias myself. In Storm I was on WBG's ass (who everyone considers to be a really good mafia player) and VE's ass from day1 on (well and RoL but everyone knew RoL was mafia so that probably doesn't count) and sadly noone listened to me and kept lynching whatever wbg wanted to be lynched. That being said I think I'm quite good myself and would like to be alive tomorrow :3You may ask "Toad why are you painting a big red cross above your head right now? You're making yourself a big target right now". But fear not because VE is mafia and he actually knows that I'm not retarded and am very much capable to find a shitload of mafias early on and the biggest flaw in my game is properly expressing what I found in people and why they are actually mafia so basicly I'm already a target. I sincerely doubt a townie vig would shoot into wbg or Jackal that early in the game because those two clearly are the best 2 players in this game. So any shots on wbg or Jackal would be from mafia imo, although it's very much a possibility that one of them or even both are mafia. Not sure about their alignment yet but you never know. Worst case would be you waste a medic on a vet who turns out to be mafia. Yeah sounds stupid but it's not the end of the world. Losing Town-WBG or Town-Jackal however would be tough. The important thing here is that a : Townie shot a mafia and townie saved mafia from death can't happen because no one would be crazy enough to shoot into those 2 as a townie. However I don't like VE requesting medic protection for him and wbg only that being said I think Jackal is a decent target as well and I myself obviously don't want to die because some Jackass thought suggesting to shoot me is a good idea because gonzaw is shitting up the thread making it look like I'm a good target while actually dozens of people tell him that I'm not. (hint hint: There's a limited number of mafias in this game, don't tell me I've got 10 mafia buddies who are telling lies to protect me) About the DT: Whatever... If you really think I am suspicious go ahead and check me but I'd rather see you try and find mafia somewhere else because you won't find any at my place. It really comes down to the flowchart I did. There's litereally only 1 guy in this thread who thinks I am suspicious and keeps barking and barking no matter how many people tell him he's got nothing that makes me look either one way or the other. Now compare it to his filter in L for instance, he posts things like this: Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:20 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to hear more from candidates about who they think might be scummy. Keep it comming, everyone.
I won't vote someone who is not telling me who he thinks is scummy. Having a single guy the candidates are suspicious of is a start but I'd idealy have a bunch of names (like 3?). Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:37 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm going with sheth here. It's nice that we got this discussion going and got some information we can work with but I'd like toget back to our mayor candidates.
I still have a bad feeling about bc and the only thing that's making me consider him is that wifom part because noone thinks a mafia would want to be in the spotlight that much. However according to what people are telling me about BC he's probably one of the few people who's capable of doing this without having a problem as mafia.
I know what sandroba thinks about the massclaim and that kind of helps me but I still want to know what he and other candidates are going to do with scum. What are your reads, who are you going to lynch and why?
I think we can and should wait with this masondiscussion until we got ourself a mayor Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 08:06 Toadesstern wrote:I know someone already pointed it out but I'm going to point it out again: blahz0r do you mind joining the discussion? That's your filter: Klick me!Not exactly looking good. Actually looking like a guy who is about to get modkilled but for some reason you already voted so you should know that the game has already started. I know there's a couple of people who are lurking right now but you already voted so that's why I'm asking you and not everyone else. He cares more about the game, and comments on several matters like BC's mason claim, etc; and most importantly tries to be part of the discussion by asking people their reads. In AC, you can see he starts posting concisely, and his posts have a point, and are not all verbose filler stuff, for instance this: Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:37 Toadesstern wrote:On February 08 2012 02:30 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler [a bit off-topic] +Hit that?![[image loading]](http://mail.is/palmar/derp.jpg) Poll: Do you want to hit that?Define "hit that" (3) 75% Yes (1) 25% No (0) 0% Since he often trolls day1 and is potentially a valuable town asset likely to die n1or n2, no (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Do you want to hit that? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Since he often trolls day1 and is potentially a valuable town asset likely to die n1or n2, no
(Vote): Define "hit that"
If it's a lurker you want to lynch Tyrran might be a good choice. I already said I never played with Tyrran didn't I? I don't like lynching lurkers unless I have to. And if I have to I'm going for lurkers I know are capable to play this game in the first play. If that's not possible I'm gladly lynching someone who's lurking and I never played with. Why are you defending hiro so much? It's not like I said I want to lynch him right now. He's something like #5 in my prioritylist. Maybe even lower. After all he could have some issues and he has to lurk because of some RL-stuff or whatever. It's just a (heavy) fos so far. He posts his stance on lurkers, which is concise and to the point, unlike this wall of text here: Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:20 Toadesstern wrote:On April 08 2012 23:59 slOosh wrote:On April 08 2012 19:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Pretty easy. And yeah, you know I agree with VE when he said shooting/lynching lurkers is a nice thing to do. I agree that I don't like to lynch them early on because that gives so little information and it's really easy for mafia to just hop on lurker-wagons which essentially would give us 0 information. Of course that only works if we actually have vigs, so if there's no dead lurkers by the end of day 2 or day3 we might have to overthink that one.
So what is your conclusion on the matter of lurkers? Lynch them or no? On April 08 2012 21:18 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd actually say Risen and WBG are the only ones being suspicious for me right now. I don't think ET is that weird.
However I liked the one post from Risen I quoted so that's given me a little townread.
Right now it really feels like what I thought about VE in storm. I had a bunch of things that made me think he's town, I had a bunch of things that made me think he's mafia and I didn't know what to make of that and he ended up being 3rd party but of course this is only day1 based on a couple hours of our game :p
To you WBG is suspicious but Kenpachi isn't? What exactly makes WBG suspicious? 1) Lynch them if we need to. I'd rather see them shot and have our lynches on people were we force people to take a stance as it's quite easy for mafia to be on a lurker-lynch and argue that that's just normal as everyibe did that as well and there's very little reasoning involved other than "the guy is a lurker". However telling people you think X is scummy, Y is scummy and Z is scummy because of *insert analysis here* and seeing all 3 flipping town is a little worrying unless you're a retarded compulsive vig like SOME PEOPLE tend to be. So that's why I'd like to have real lynches and keep the lurkers for our vig/vigs if we got some unless we don't have a legit real lynch candidate around. In that case lynching a lurker is fine as a safe option imo. 2) Funny you mentioned Kenpachi. He's the guy I'd like to shoot if I had to shoot someone other than wbg right now. But that's not because he's suspicious but because he's Kenpachi. I totally hate that "style" and he will be a controversial topic at some point in this game imo. I doubt he's going to be helpful at all all game long and he's probably going to lurk all the time while sometimes posting a couple of oneliners that have nothing to do with the thread but may or may not benefit his own ability to judge people based on reactions. That's how I feel about Kenpachi and long story short = he's a null for me and I doubt he's going to go highly either the one or the other way in reads so if I had to shoot it'd be a coinflip option which is bad but really a secure shot because it's not like shooting Kenpachi is going to harm the game like shooting a Vet would if that guy turns out to be a townie. You can also see in AC how he comments on a lot of players. He comments about layabout, Palmar, Radfield, BM, Kenpachi, hiro, etc, etc ,etc; unlike this game where he solely focuses on a handful of players and ignores the rest. On Storm Mafia now. Yes, he posts some walls of text there, but they don't seem too verbose and seem to have more content in them, for instance this one: Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 02:04 Toadesstern wrote:On February 23 2012 00:59 syllogism wrote:On February 22 2012 22:22 Toadesstern wrote:
ok I'm back here for half an hour. Still reading everything and I'm going to vote redFF for now.
I'm not sure yet we really should lynch him simply because I doubt that mafia would be so vocal so early on. He was basicly BEGGING to get heat for that policy lynch. But then again I do the same as mafia and like to take heat because I think I can take it. All I've read from redFF so far indicates that he thinks very highly about himself so it's a possibility although it's totally wifom (in both directions).
I think chaosers answeres to my case were decent and he's no longer my scumread #1 because of that.
I am not going to lynch BC based on that because I got a different conclusion and I don't want to lynch into vets on d1. D1 is the hardest lynch because we have so little information and yet you want to straight away lynch BC?
So it's really only redFF I'm left with right now or a rnd-lurker, but most people here are actually talking.
Will be back in something like 3 hours I hope. Depending on my train and the shity internet my parents got...
And I'll read this all on train. I'm not liking you so far in this game. This post doesn't read like what I would expect from you and I'm not sure how exactly you determine whether someone is a "vet" or not and as such "untouchable" on d1. Why were you fine with lynching Chaoser but not fine with lynching BC? You seem unsure about redff but still want to lynch him over everyone else. Is this correct? What do you think about his tracker claim and what I've said about it? back and got Internet \o/ Yeah I realize that A LOT of people are vets in this game. That's why I said earlier that saying that probably is stupid because there's so few people in here who are not at least decent. I was fine with lynching Chaoser because I thought it's odd. I thought the same way in my last game about him, told people about it, Chaoser got in the thread and explained everything which made him look pretty townie to me that game. Imo the same is happening this time. I had some issues with him that made him my #1 read but his answeres and effort were decent enough to settle for someone else. I am not fine with lynching BC because I already explained that I saw the very same things you saw about him but got to another conclusion and so far it's nothing that makes we mant to lynch him. Additionaly he's one of the guys I'd like to not lynch d1 but that's my opinion. I wouldn't be willing to lynch you either. Yes I am unsure about red and for me he's something like a backup lynch. I don't think that the situation about redFF is going to be better very soon because as already mentioend the claim is a hard thing to judge. I do agree that 1 tracker on both sides sounds reasonable but I also agree that 2 on town side would be a reasonable as well. No to begin with the fact that maybe red is a mafia tracker after all, we got a towntracker (e.g. your "theory" is right) and that guy is simply not willing to claim yet because he wants to think this thing trough. So far I'm trying to ignore the tracker-claim. I do not thing any result he could deliver would help him and therefore I do not think it should be an issue for his alignment at all because it could be both. About the situation not going to get better: Mafia tracker is totally possible as well and no matter what red is going to tell us it's not going to improve his situation so we will have to lynch him eventually. That's why he's some kind of backup lynch for me. I don't really feel that strong about his scummyness because I still doubt he'd do that as mafia (which is wifom) but I don't think it would be a bad lynch either. The whole argument about this wagon forming so fast is obviously bullshit. Yes I agree that mafia probably wouldn't bus one of their buddies so early. 14 vs 4 sounds somewhat to townfavored for me so I'd say we got thirdparties or something like that. Let's just assume 12 vs 4 for the sake of numbers. I just don't believe they'd be willing to make it 12 v 3 so easily. Still we got a bunch of people defending him and I am softdefending him as well. It's not like he's a confirmed town and what he did was weird to say the least. So I can see how people want to lynch him and the real problem is that this lynch is so incredible easy for mafia to sheep if he really flips town, not the fact that it's fast. So what I said above is about the situation we got right now and about redFF. Now to my thoughts about possible lynches. I'd say the 3 best candidates for a lynch right now are either VE, BH or red. I already explained the part on red in detail and yeah, he's my "backup"-lynch. BH is a fast one too because I agree with what Dirkzor said. VE is a meta one because I got the feeling it's mafia-VE trying to make us think we're dealing with stupid-VE. Pretty much the same as in arkham. VE's better than what he's doing right now. He clearly was overdoing it early on and while I do agree that he wants to improve and this might look like VE actually trying to help, I think he was very well aware of the fact the he was pulling a p4n on us. He's also more spammy and trollish (idk how to say that, like the posts he did to answer Jackal) than he should be. Town VE really tries hard to help nowadays. He does that by posting his reads and argueing about his reads in a "normal" fashion imo. I don't really see that "normal" fashion here and think it's him trying to make it look like his usual meta. Oh and when I said "VE really tries hard to help" I was referring to the fact that he tries hard not to fall back into his old habits and I see that happening this game without a reason. In L I saw that later on as well but he was pissed like I was because noone was listening to him and I understood that, however I don't really see a reason for that in this game. So yeah. Those 3 are the ones I'd be willing to lynch today as of now. I'm still reading a bit and I'm here. So if you want to talk to me go ahead :p Gigantic wall of text. Yet he comments on various situations, comments about various people he thinks is scum. I have to admit his style in Storm is more similar to his style here than his other past games, but I still don't think it's similar enough. For instance he still pressures some people Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 05:51 Toadesstern wrote:why did you vote for sandroba prplhz?  I'm trying to read something into that mistake and I can't think of something that makes sense lol Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:16 Toadesstern wrote:On February 23 2012 06:14 layabout wrote:
Whilst i would like to call VE dumb with have bigger things to deal with.
Voting for BC right now is not only dumb due to how people have been behaving but it a terrible move. This was first pointed out to me in Purgatory.
If there are two wagons the first wagon is significantly more likely to hit a scum because no counterwagon against a scum player would gain mafia support and the wagon would likely fail. So any successful counterwagon is much more likely to hit town than it is to hit scum because the wagon should only gain support from mafia if it is a townie.Barring a DT check, that is the only time that a counterwagon could be correct. do you think BC is town given what he posted so far? And he gives more thoughts on other players and most importantly he discusses the current events happening in the thread and cares about itHere is what I thought about his posting style earlier in the game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046¤tpage=22#440And here is what I thought about his contributions and behaviour earlier on: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046¤tpage=49#969Sorry guys, I don't have more time to make this post better, I'm going to uni right now and I won't be back before the deadline, so I'm posting this right now to make my stance on Toad known. I hope this is enough to show you guys what I thought about his style and behaviour, so you guys can form a better opinion on him.
He posting style feels really different, and gonzaw explains it pretty well here imo. Perhaps this is a by-product of being "tunneled" all game, but im starting to doubt so. I read through a couple of cases he made and generally feel that he doesnt apply this much wifom and stuff, and his logic is usually pretty ok, abliet a little dramaish if you know what I mean.
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Forgot.
##vote: Toad
VE what are your thoughts on WBG? I find the way he sheeped Toad's case on you pretty sketchy.
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The whole "THIS ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND ME" complex he has. Yeah, I know what you mean.
Don't worry, he's explained that he's "trying not to do that stuff this game cause WBG and BC told me not to".
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 11 2012 20:54 VisceraEyes wrote:
Bless you zelblade, REASON ISN'T LOST!!
I have renewed hope for this town in spite of having a superfast wagon shoved forcibly into my anus.
Thank you sir.
You did, however, set the scene for such a wagon with your previous wagony behaviour (yes guys, wagony is a word). MG's death still seemed like the weird one to me out of all the kills. I would remind everyone of his post here.
Key points being the numerous VE vote switches (not that damning in themselves). What I liked though is how MG pointed out the flip-flops between VE saying "let's lynch a lurker" and "let's hunt scum". To recap, VE says he's in favour of lynching a lurker, followed by WE MUST LYNCH SCUM, followed by varios FoS and *voting on lurkers*.
What is interesting to me is that VE is sheepling more than I'd normally expect a town VE to sheeple. Risen-Tunkeg-Janaan-Hassybaby-Janaan. All these votes bar Risen were in the interest of "consolodating with town"? Possibly he may counter-argue that he had pointed fingers at Hassy already. Since when does VE play like this? Normally he goes hell for heather for his scumreads, for good or bad. A town VE would surely have been pushing Hassybaby and voting for him when he was convinced he was scum, then doing what he does best and getting people to join him. But far from ever trying to lead scum lynches, he simply followed the crowd to get any lynch.
Toad's case on VE did seem just bad, though. It screamed WIFOM and the "confirmed town" stuff is just such bullshit. So confirmed that everyone is talking about you as a suspect, Toad? Sure.
As for jonnywup, where some kinda mini-wagon has arisen. At the moment I don't think it's a solid option. In a couple of recent games he's played he's also appeared kinda sheepish and that was as town. jdub's behaviour so far in this game doesn't seem like an untown jdub, although if anyone has any specific in mind I'll take a look.
Meanwhile, I want to know what VE has to say about his lack of direction/pushing for scum on Day 1.
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As I said earlier, the only problems I have with Bugs presently are A) his horrible sheeping of Toad and 2) his life remaining intact after the night-kills.
If he continues to sheep Toad's terribad case, then I'll heavily push for vigs to shoot him tonight and for town to lynch him tomorrow (if I'm still around for all of that :S). I've found almost CERTAIN scum in Toad though, and will be pushing his lynch today. Failing a Toad lynch, I could be convinced to lynch johnnywup. Failing those two, I'd have to see who's a candidate - but I doubt Bugs will be one of them. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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EPT
