Purgatory Mafia - Page 5

On January 15 2012 00:47 Grackaroni wrote:
There's a reason why the entire town disagreed with you're plan. . . it's bad.
If all scum players simply claim VT then you get a trade off of having a confirmed voting block of 4 blue roles in exchange for them risking being shot or roleblocked which basically gets rid of their roles.
The execution was also very bad. The chance of a townie in this game lying to protect themselves or take a shot seems pretty likely to me.

All you're plan did was waste people's time and cause a couple of people to claim VT, which is bad for town.
You''re not helping by tunneling on BH, if you're extremely confident that he is scum than you can continue to push him but it doesn't mean that you should ignore everyone else. Surely there are other people in this game acting scummy besides BH, but you haven't bothered to push them.

On January 15 2012 00:07 layabout wrote:
when do you think you could post something substantial by?
we have like 10 hours..

On January 15 2012 04:00 syllogism wrote:
Now that you are here RoL, please move your vote to HoD

On January 15 2012 06:56 Blazinghand wrote:
yeah the thing is, if RoL is the channeler, he's dead tonight-- I'm not entirely sure why he'd claim instead of trying to argue his way out

On January 15 2012 06:57 syllogism wrote:
There is no way RoL proposed that dumb blue claim plan AND claimed VT if he is the channeler. It's also unlikely that he would have jailed me n1

On January 15 2012 06:58 Spaackle wrote:
I'm back as well. I'll be around for a while before the lynch.

That being said, RoL's claim seems like a halfhearted last ditch defense. He says he'll explain why later, but later had better come soon.

On January 22 2012 03:04 Blazinghand wrote:


You're leaving out the part where his plan is actually bad for town, and lets the angels win. Yes, people had poorly thought out criticisms of the plan. Yes, RoL defended his plan skillfully. Yes, it's possible he was a terrible townie who wrote a 3,000 word plan without thinking through the consequences of it.

But it was still a bad plan, and he was still pushing it. Why would you push a bad plan? Because you are scum.

So I tunneled him for a week.

EDIT: Look, I had a clear read on RoL. I believed like 99% that he was scum. How, in that circumstance, am I NOT going to push him, and push him hard?

On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote:


I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan.
I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms.
I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town.
I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment)

Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum.

On January 22 2012 05:21 Mr. Wiggles wrote:

The case on RoL (at least in general, I don't particularly remember all the details of BH's PbP) was sound, in my opinion.


A lot of town players made bad criticisms of RoL's plan, because they either missed part when reading it, or didn't understand the game set-up. That made it easy for him to defend his plan and make it look good, but really it didn't do much to strengthen the validity of the plan, as the criticisms didn't really point out actual flaws in the plan that needed to be defended against.

Again, I want to make a distinction between a plan just being bad, and a plan being anti-town. RoL's plan seemed designed in a way that was meant to hurt the town. Also, for me, his plan was in no way the basis for thinking he was scum. It was just icing on the cake, that he would come back from 4 days of lurking, to push a plan that is not clearly in the best interests of the town. It would have been much better to just scum-hunt at that point, and do something useful, if you were town.


This is why I considered RoL's plan bad for town. I didn't feel like going into lots of detail about it during the game, because it was clear it wasn't going to be implemented.

It's bad for town, because it relies on the town using their blue roles effectively, versus the angels using their roles effectively. It comes down to power roles, which I personally hate. Now, if you compare them, it's easy to see that there's a much better chance of the angels winning out in that war. Each blue is by himself, and has to think by himself. On the contrary, the angels have the ability to privately coordinate their actions, so it makes it easier for them, and they now have a pool of players in which they can essentially double their KP, or at least make it a lot more effective. So, just in the battle of the roles, it's somewhat in favour of the angels.

Next, for the town to win in that situation, it relies on the town having strong scumhunting, and being very accurate with their lynches, because you cannot assume that their investigative and KP roles will survive for long. Looking at day 1, you could see that the town atmosphere had significantly degenerated by the end of the day, and that a majority of people were playing in a way that made them very hard to tell from the actual scum. This means that it's unlikely that town is going to hit all their lynches, and this is actually what happened as the game went on. So, by removing the power roles that the town could use as a sort of crutch, you made it so they could only rely on analysis, which obviously wasn't going to work in this game, unless people made a major change in effort and posting.

Thirdly, RoL's plan was bad for town, because of the combination of points one and two. The mafia's KP being able to be used more effectively by being aimed into the blues, means that player numbers will decrease more rapidly, especially if the angels are able to determine the identity of the demon hunter and avoid hitting him. This compounds the need of the town to be able to scumhunt well, because now they're losing players more rapidly than they would otherwise. This point isn't as strong, though, because it relies on the resolution of night actions.

So, yes, RoL's plan could have been good for town, but in my eyes, it depended on the town having very good aim with their blues, and having very strong analysis. So, the onus of 'luck' was much more on the town than the angels, and based on how the game was going, it was a decent assumption that town wouldn't be able to play well enough to live in that situation.

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The reason for thinking RoL is scum, was that he spent the entire first day doing nothing but making excuses for not playing. Then, he comes into the thread, and instead of doing the most useful thing he could, and scumhunting, he instead pushes a plan that could be considered anti-town. However, the major point here, is that he spent all his effort into making and defending a plan, instead of finding scum. Then he spends all of day 2 making excuses and saying he'll scumhunt later.

This is not the behaviour of a town player. This is the behaviour of someone who wants to avoid having to contribute and who wants to fly under the radar. There's no reason for thinking that he could be a townie, and pushing a plan doesn't make you a townie. RoL had no thread-presence, because he lurked all of day 1. This means that any plan he pushes forward, is instantly going to be harder for him to actually get put into action, and is going to meet a lot more resistance. So, he posts a plan that is not obviously pro-town, and then he doesn't even put much effort into getting it going. If he was a townie posting a plan that he thought was incredibly good for town, like he tried to make out, there's no reason to not push your plan, and no reason to give up on it so easily. This is why, RoL's posting, regardless of the content of the plan was scummy.

Overall, that's why he was scum, and that's why he was a good day 2 lynch.

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Next, I just want to say in general, people need to stop worshiping vets or good players so much. Just because someone played well in one game, doesn't mean they'll play well in the next. Just because someone has a decent reputation as a scumhunter, doesn't mean you shouldn't lynch them when they're acting scummy. Judge a player by his contributions in the game you're playing, not by his potential. No one should get a free pass on day 1 to act incredibly scummy. I noticed this with Palmar in this game, but also in general, so I've decided to say something.

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This is all just my opinion, so feel free to disagree.

On January 22 2012 08:54 Blazinghand wrote:


Do you seriously believe lurking for the first 72 hours is town behavior?