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On November 27 2011 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 07:12 syllogism wrote:
Mostly because you are a player who is incapable of trusting others or being convinced nah. People convince me of their alignments all the time, I just don't generally go around yelling that they're town unless they're about to die. However, I do go about yelling that people are scum, because often the sheep townies only listen to loud arguments.
Convincing someone of their alignment is quite different than convincing you of someone else's alignment. You are the kind of player who just always takes his own opinion over others, no matter how frequently you are wrong and how frequently they are correct.
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On November 27 2011 07:25 syllogism wrote:
So Palmar would you like to explain to me which of us two (me and sandroba) do you think is scum? Or both? If we are both scum, why am I so obviously linking us together? You've played a scum game with me and know how careful I am, so I find it extremely unlikely that you think it's possible for us both to be scum. Thus you have to explain to me which one of us is scum or if neither, why aren't you willing to vote for sandroba over BC. I know you are usually willing to believe me when I'm pushing for something, so clearly something is different here
This is the point I made earlier in the game.
Like PYP, it's almost impossible to tell the alignment combination between you two, that's why I suggested we just kill both of you.
As long as you keep buddying up to sandro like this, honestly it might even be good just to make a policy that kills both of you when you do this. I didn't like it one bit in PYP and I don't like it here either. If you remember, I got in a pretty heated argument with you over the fact that the logic sandro was using to vote Mig (that he believed you were town) was terrible. People in the postgame even pointed it out, but yet we're still facing that same situation here.
BC earlier in this game also pointed it out. Yet, you're still asserting that it's good logic, somehow.
Palmar, I would like to add sandro and syllo to the 10 target list, if you'd agree with that.
I'll be writing up cases on several players soon. I just need to read the thread again.
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I didn't push "sandroba is town" in PYPI. I wasn't buddying with him or even talking to him after day 1. That is fiction. I initially thought he was scummy and yes I did consider him townier after that because he completely yielded and started supporting our pro-town initiatives.
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On November 27 2011 07:28 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 27 2011 07:12 syllogism wrote:
Mostly because you are a player who is incapable of trusting others or being convinced nah. People convince me of their alignments all the time, I just don't generally go around yelling that they're town unless they're about to die. However, I do go about yelling that people are scum, because often the sheep townies only listen to loud arguments. Convincing someone of their alignment is quite different than convincing you of someone else's alignment. You are the kind of player who just always takes his own opinion over others, no matter how frequently you are wrong and how frequently they are correct.
You can continue asserting whatever you like about what you think my play is like.
I know what I do and think when I am town. You may disagree with what I think my own play is like, and that's fine. That has nothing to do with the logic of your argument, something that not only I have pointed out, but other players have pointed out as well.
The fact that you attack me but you don't attack them is far more telling of your alignment than it is of mine. All it says about me is that I am a controversial player.
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Yes, that wasn't intended to convince you of anything, that was just a statement of fact and merely my opinion of you. As it doesn't actually pertain to the game, we should drop it here
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On November 27 2011 07:25 syllogism wrote:
So Palmar would you like to explain to me which of us two (me and sandroba) do you think is scum? Or both? If we are both scum, why am I so obviously linking us together? You've played a scum game with me and know how careful I am, so I find it extremely unlikely that you think it's possible for us both to be scum. Thus you have to explain to me which one of us is scum or if neither, why aren't you willing to vote for sandroba over BC. I know you are usually willing to believe me when I'm pushing for something, so clearly something is different here
Up until this conversation I was leaning towards both of you being scum. However, as I already noted, contrary to what you think, I think the sinani206 lynch is so ridiculously bad that a scumdroba wouldn't dare attempt it.
And yes, the fact that you're willing to have this conversation with me makes it less likely you are scum. I know it's like 00:30 in finland and you could be off to bed if you wanted.
I guess the answer to your question is that I am unsure of your alignments as of now, you are really tying the two of you togethere, while sandroba doesn't seem to be doing the same. I'm not sure what it means. I have no interest in killing you or putting you guys on the DT list, as I am certain that through the way you push lynches on days 2-3 you will confirm your alignment one way or the other.
I see no reason to kill you because of how powerful assets you guys can be for town, and if you're scum, I frankly don't care much because I already have more sway in town than you two. You're great players, and the risk of having you around as scum is very little compared to the reward of having you around as town.
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On November 27 2011 07:30 syllogism wrote:
I didn't push "sandroba is town" in PYPI. I wasn't buddying with him or even talking to him after day 1. That is fiction. I initially thought he was scummy and yes I did consider him townier after that because he completely yielded and started supporting our pro-town initiatives.
and you misconstrue my words.
I said sandro pushed YOU as town, and then agreed to vote Mig because he thought you were town so you should be trusted. sandro was scum.
Now swap all the instances and you have this game.
You, this game, are insisting that anyone who thinks you are town should vote sandro because you support sandro and because you are town your opinion is good.
That's bad logic, and I'd say it's even scum logic. Scum can manipulate people who look like town very easily so that less confident townies will follow their train of thought simply on the premise that a good townie would have a good, logical opinion.
It makes the job of scum very easy, in fact, since then the scum only have to convince one person. They convince the lead townie of an opinion and then the sheep follow the lead townie.
When the lead townie turns out to be wrong, the blame falls on them and not the scum who spawned the idea.
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On November 27 2011 07:32 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 07:25 syllogism wrote:
So Palmar would you like to explain to me which of us two (me and sandroba) do you think is scum? Or both? If we are both scum, why am I so obviously linking us together? You've played a scum game with me and know how careful I am, so I find it extremely unlikely that you think it's possible for us both to be scum. Thus you have to explain to me which one of us is scum or if neither, why aren't you willing to vote for sandroba over BC. I know you are usually willing to believe me when I'm pushing for something, so clearly something is different here Up until this conversation I was leaning towards both of you being scum. However, as I already noted, contrary to what you think, I think the sinani206 lynch is so ridiculously bad that a scumdroba wouldn't dare attempt it. And yes, the fact that you're willing to have this conversation with me makes it less likely you are scum. I know it's like 00:30 in finland and you could be off to bed if you wanted. I guess the answer to your question is that I am unsure of your alignments as of now, you are really tying the two of you togethere, while sandroba doesn't seem to be doing the same. I'm not sure what it means. I have no interest in killing you or putting you guys on the DT list, as I am certain that through the way you push lynches on days 2-3 you will confirm your alignment one way or the other. I see no reason to kill you because of how powerful assets you guys can be for town, and if you're scum, I frankly don't care much because I already have more sway in town than you two. You're great players, and the risk of having you around as scum is very little compared to the reward of having you around as town.
Palmar this is the exact opposite of what happened in PYP:I.
Sandro as scum was very active in tying himself to syllo. Syllo mostly didn't give a shit about sandro.
Now it's the other way around.
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So that takes us back to your vote. Why are you not voting for sandroba over BC. I know you consider him a better asset for town, correct or not and I don't think BC has done anything that would convince you of his alignment
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BC has made sense.
Sandro's call for sinani's lynch makes about as much sense as sinani himself does.
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wbg, it's not bad logic. Mafia is a game where quite often players have to decide who to trust when they don't personally have a clue. It is obviously better to be able to convince them based on the perceived strength of your argument, but quite often players do resort to just trusting someone who they strongly believe is town. As they should, because as long as they trust someone who tends to be correct, doing so benefits town more than acting based on your own, weaker case.
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And I die a little bit inside whenever you invoke the term "bad logic"
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On November 27 2011 07:34 syllogism wrote:
So that takes us back to your vote. Why are you not voting for sandroba over BC. I know you consider him a better asset for town, correct or not and I don't think BC has done anything that would convince you of his alignment
Actually, fuck it.
You probably wouldn't do this as scum, and I think if we all happen to be to town, it's very good to have people of different "factions" in office. Despite disagreeing with sandroba on almost everything in this game, I'm gonna suggest we put him in the second spot. Worst case, we have an extra roleblock for scum who is a very, very transparent player. If bodyguards start dying, we lynch sandroba. If he doesn't make good calls, we lynch sandroba.
I need to run, will change my vote later.
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Hey, can i be replaced? i have multiple things that JUST came up, so if it isn't too late, i would like to be /out
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On November 27 2011 07:37 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 07:34 syllogism wrote:
So that takes us back to your vote. Why are you not voting for sandroba over BC. I know you consider him a better asset for town, correct or not and I don't think BC has done anything that would convince you of his alignment Actually, fuck it. You probably wouldn't do this as scum, and I think if we all happen to be to town, it's very good to have people of different "factions" in office. Despite disagreeing with sandroba on almost everything in this game, I'm gonna suggest we put him in the second spot. Worst case, we have an extra roleblock for scum who is a very, very transparent player. If bodyguards start dying, we lynch sandroba. If he doesn't make good calls, we lynch sandroba. I need to run, will change my vote later.
Disagree with this. You just gave yourself a scapegoat right here if you are red and him town by offing him before you get lynched -_-
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That's only if you are more confident in them than you are in yourself.
Again, I'll draw the comparison back to PYP:I because that game taught me about self-confidence. On day 2 everyone in the other town circles thought Foolish was scum because of their lack of contact with him. I had far more contact and I had the opposing opinion.
On that night, my choice of shot as CPR doc was prplhz or sandro. I found out prpl had claimed DF so I would've shot sandro. Instead, Mig convinced me that Foolish was scum, and I believed his opinion over mine because I felt he was superior at reading townies/scum than I was, and because I believed Mig to be town, I trusted his opinion.
I shot Foolishness contrary to my own opinions and he ended up flipping town. Instead of shooting Foolish that night, I should've gone with my own opinion and shot sandro.
You don't trust other people to make correct judgments just because they're town. Townies aren't infallible, and you're always more sure of your own alignment than others' anyway.
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hey as mentioned earlier I don't really know who's a veteran here and who's not. I know that gm, and wbg are because they used to be coaches and I asked them a lot of questions the last 2 games.
I figure syllo is a vet as well? How many games did he play so far? (well are we talking about 1 digit, 2 difits or more?^^).
I kind of got a bad feeling here but I'd like to get t hat information.
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that was @ syllo, and I agree with BC on what Palmar just posted...that's a little weird.
BC, what do you think of what syllo is saying right now?
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On November 27 2011 07:42 wherebugsgo wrote:
that was @ syllo, and I agree with BC on what Palmar just posted...that's a little weird.
BC, what do you think of what syllo is saying right now?
I think he is saying things along the same lines of the problem I commented he had earlier. He is using weird logic to confirm sandro by linking the two together. Syllo's behaviour would give me no reason to trust sandro more or less as to analyze sandro requires sandro's posts not syllo's. Nothing he has said makes me feel any surer of sandro's alignment. The only way syllo could confirm sandros alignment is by being red and knowing sandro is green. In that case the only reason to so strongly push sandro now would be to deny me sheriff.
However, sandro could be easily red in the case syllo is red, and sandro could be red if syllo is green. Nothing about syllo's posts will make me think any differently in a positive light on sandro. He is however digging himself into some weird messed up hole that seems impossible to get out of.
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syllogism is quite experienced, BloodyC0bbler is quite experienced, Palmar, kitaman, sandroba, all of these players.
Of these players I don't know much about BC but I understand he's very good at scum and quite good as town as well, Palmar is quite good at both alignments, kita often makes people believe he is town when he is scum, sandro is good at both but considerably better as town.
There are some other vets in this game as well;
decon, who is, IMO decent but really obvious as scum. This game, he is incredibly scummy. Good choice for lynch IMO.
annul, who I don't personally know but he's making some rather weird statements right now.
LSB, who again I don't personally know and I don't know much about.
Kenpachi, great vig but often doesn't do anything
Lemonwalrus, don't know much about this guy
prplhz, doing really well recently
Jackal58, has really bad day 1 reads but apparently he gets better later. I've never played with him as town beyond day 1 but generally I never trust anything he says day 1. He's pretty damn good as scum too.
GreYMisT, decent town player, bad scum player (I think?) about as new as I am (so like 3 months)
Drazerk, almost always scummy. Self-proclaimed bad
bumatlarge, pretty decent town, and his scum is good although I feel like I can catch his scum play more easily than some others
Coagulation-heard he's good, son of Jackal, tends to lurk I guess. not much here as well
supersoft-generally makes pretty logical calls as town and the only time I saw his scum play he was really obvious scum
Erandorr-he started playing mafia with the same game I did, XLIV, (so about 3 months) and he's generally pretty good as town, tends to lurk and fly under the radar as scum
Kurumi-resident troll, tends to lurk as both alignments.
tnkted-pretty decent as town, never seen him play scum but he actually tends to get suspicion when he is town for some reason. Never figured out why. I think I've played one or two games with him (one of which I was a very late replacement and dead within 2 hours)
sinani206-just useless
nisani201-marginally less useless
that's about all the names I recognize.
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EPT
