EPTPalmar u gotta sk8
I'll just sit here and wait until something awesome turns up.
TL Mafia XLVII - Page 66
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
Palmar u gotta sk8 I'll just sit here and wait until something awesome turns up. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
That's not allowed, is it? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 26 2011 06:29 bonifaceviii wrote: By the way, are Erandorr and jaybrundage the same person? Because the vote tallies in the voting thread seem to indicate they are. That's not allowed, is it? ???? | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
Hmm, the posts have now been edited. Before they were edited any vote for Erandorr was counted as a vote for jaybrundage, and Erandorr's votes were appearing as jaybrundage. An error I guess? | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
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zeks
Canada1068 Posts
trolls being trolls people flaming each other (most of which don't seem like it'd be tolerated on the main forums - but I suppose theres a different set of standards here) nothing new actually but for someone like me who hasn't played in a while it didn't seem that bad before | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On November 26 2011 06:38 zeks wrote: definitely not really a newbie-friendly game at all... trolls being trolls people flaming each other (most of which don't seem like it'd be tolerated on the main forums - but I suppose theres a different set of standards here) nothing new actually but for someone like me who hasn't played in a while it didn't seem that bad before Its day 1. Day 1 sucks | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 26 2011 06:37 bonifaceviii wrote: Hmm, the posts have now been edited. Before they were edited any vote for Erandorr was counted as a vote for jaybrundage, and Erandorr's votes were appearing as jaybrundage. An error I guess? yeah they were probably just wrong counts. jaybrundage and Erandorr are definitely not the same person lol. On November 26 2011 06:38 zeks wrote: definitely not really a newbie-friendly game at all... trolls being trolls people flaming each other (most of which don't seem like it'd be tolerated on the main forums - but I suppose theres a different set of standards here) nothing new actually but for someone like me who hasn't played in a while it didn't seem that bad before This game might be a little hard to get into, but you should give it a shot I think ^^ I know it's a lot of reading and sometimes we get heated, but none of it is permanent since we all have to play with each other in future games. Most of the namecalling and stuff is just done in debate when we get a little heated and can't find any better way to deconstruct an argument. Sometimes it's childish, I agree, but I think that's just how most humans work. What do you think of the current mayoral candidates, and who do you think is scum? | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
1) My vote for RedFF was going to mean nothing. This isn't like real life politics where I'm making a statement, so I'd like someone I approve of to get office. 2) I'm not entirely sure I want sandroba to win over Palmar. Filtering between Plamar and sandroba has just given me the feeling that Palmar isn't scum and sandroba is 90% not scum. It's probably likely as all hell that neither of them are scum, and I'm just being paranoid about sandroba. I just didn't like that he wouldn't reveal his feelings on BC until night 2, his logic being that if BC is town he'll die and if he's not he must be scum (as far as I could gather, maybe I'm horribly off base) 3) I had originally wanted prplhz to get sheriff or mayor, but after he withdrew that left me with no one. Prplhz's last post in this thread up to this point didn't sit well with me either. I know he may feel Palmar is scum, but he has nothing to back it up other than Palmar's scum is good. I'm a noobie, but at this point the major candidates all have some sort of experience, and we're going to be in a tough spot no matter who is voted in should they turn out to be scum. I feel like I had more to post but it slipped from my head. If anyone has any questions about this just let me know, there's probably something that's incoherent in here. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On November 26 2011 06:38 zeks wrote: definitely not really a newbie-friendly game at all... trolls being trolls people flaming each other (most of which don't seem like it'd be tolerated on the main forums - but I suppose theres a different set of standards here) nothing new actually but for someone like me who hasn't played in a while it didn't seem that bad before It wasn't. This will probably be my last game again for a while. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 26 2011 06:44 Risen wrote: Alrighty, I swapped my vote from RedFF to Palmar for a few reasons, and I feel like after reading a lot of this analysis I'm going to come up short but here's a few points from what I've been seeing. 1) My vote for RedFF was going to mean nothing. This isn't like real life politics where I'm making a statement, so I'd like someone I approve of to get office. 2) I'm not entirely sure I want sandroba to win over Palmar. Filtering between Plamar and sandroba has just given me the feeling that Palmar isn't scum and sandroba is 90% not scum. It's probably likely as all hell that neither of them are scum, and I'm just being paranoid about sandroba. I just didn't like that he wouldn't reveal his feelings on BC until night 2, his logic being that if BC is town he'll die and if he's not he must be scum (as far as I could gather, maybe I'm horribly off base) 3) I had originally wanted prplhz to get sheriff or mayor, but after he withdrew that left me with no one. Prplhz's last post in this thread up to this point didn't sit well with me either. I know he may feel Palmar is scum, but he has nothing to back it up other than Palmar's scum is good. I'm a noobie, but at this point the major candidates all have some sort of experience, and we're going to be in a tough spot no matter who is voted in should they turn out to be scum. I feel like I had more to post but it slipped from my head. If anyone has any questions about this just let me know, there's probably something that's incoherent in here. Can you explain what specifically you saw in sandro's posts that makes you think he is 90% town? On November 26 2011 06:44 Jackal58 wrote: It wasn't. This will probably be my last game again for a while. Mayor, scum, let's go. Who? | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
It is nice that RedFF seems interested in keeping people posting their thoughts, though. Someone had said he was a lurker but he seems pretty active and helpful to me. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On November 26 2011 06:49 Risen wrote: EBWOP: I hope swapping my vote like that isn't a bad thing to do. Also, RedFF didn't seem like he was going to be as active as leading candidates and I need my mayor to hold my hand and tell me what to do (not entirely true, but some direction from the guy with three votes is nice) It is nice that RedFF seems interested in keeping people posting their thoughts, though. Someone had said he was a lurker but he seems pretty active and helpful to me. Changing votes is perfectly acceptable. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On November 26 2011 06:47 wherebugsgo wrote: SNIP Can you explain what specifically you saw in sandro's posts that makes you think he is 90% town? SNIP Sure thing. Ok so... 1) He saw someone being sketchy and told him that he didn't want his vote without more justification, which isn't scummy imo. Then again, maybe he just doesn't want to be outed, so that isn't to anti-scummy behavior, but it kind of is imo. 2) He listed out how to properly DT in this game, which seems pretty anti-scum to me. Then again his post was a lot of common sense, but it's still helpful. 3) He's going to lynch sinani206 day 1, and this is my first TL mafia game so his justification seems pretty strong to me As for the 10% scum, I just didn't like how he's handling the BC situation, as referenced earlier. It doesn't mean he's scum, it's just the thing that tips it to Palmar for me atm. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On November 26 2011 03:15 deconduo wrote: You can have an opinion, but I'll be proven right tomorrow. If you think none of the people I listed are going to die tonight, then I don't know what to say to you... Never said none of the people you listed will die, stop putting words in my mouth. Hurry up and lynch BC, he's so scummy I can't believe this game hasn't devolved into a BC vs the world. But then I guess I'll be lynched day 1, which isn't too bad considering BC can get away with anything. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 26 2011 07:02 Risen wrote: Sure thing. Ok so... 1) He saw someone being sketchy and told him that he didn't want his vote without more justification, which isn't scummy imo. Then again, maybe he just doesn't want to be outed, so that isn't to anti-scummy behavior, but it kind of is imo. 2) He listed out how to properly DT in this game, which seems pretty anti-scum to me. Then again his post was a lot of common sense, but it's still helpful. 3) He's going to lynch sinani206 day 1, and this is my first TL mafia game so his justification seems pretty strong to me As for the 10% scum, I just didn't like how he's handling the BC situation, as referenced earlier. It doesn't mean he's scum, it's just the thing that tips it to Palmar for me atm. Do you understand how DTs work in this game? Did you read my post about the sinani lynch? | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
Palmar is a player capable of a lot of critical thought - and he is not afraid to voice his views. While he might be a bit more reserved with his harsh opinions in order not to scare the new players, this is no reason to agree with unreasonable plans. And indeed, he saw no reason to. A summary of his opinion on BC's plan, in Palmar's own words: While he should have recognized that his plan was, at worst destructive and at best unhelpful, he didn't back down easily and he kept defending it. However, when WBG proposed his changes, Palmar took a different stance: WBG: I think I actually like your plan very much now. By adding a target you have reduced the chance framers can fuck with it. the chances mafia has 4 framers are very low. Let me think about it for a while, but I'm carefully voicing support for it, and I think productive discussion would be about the people we line up for killing. and The only glaring problem is that we'll be killing a lot of people early, but even then I'm not sure it's a bad idea in a game like this. I actually think it'll help us a lot just killing a lot of people using bad logic. They're either scum, or bad, so they're not increasing our chances of winning. Now, one aspect of WBG's plan is better: it makes it harder for framers to "fuck with it". But there's a lot of other issues. Palmar's thoughts on BC's plan: @BloodyC0bbler: With all the drawbacks of your plan, are you sure that the benefits outweigh them? With so many millers, framers, godfathers and sanities, in the game, no matter what route we take, DTs will only be effective late in the game. I think your plan simply implements a higher risk (mafia manipulation) for higher reward (more confirmed DT sanities) version of the classic version where they do their own thing. Framing offensively is one of the hardest and most random things you can do in mafia, so if you know that some target has a slightly higher chance of being checked, I'd frame that in a heartbeat. "All the drawbacks" haven't been addressed by WBC's plan. Even the bit about framers. Initially Palmar said that framers would be happy if they had a "slightly higher" chance of framing someone successfully. Well, they still do. Sandroba and Syllogisim, two of the players Palmar recognises as some of the best (if not the best) in this game, voiced their disagreement with WBC's plan - but Palmar didn't address their actual issues with the plan. Does that sound like Palmar to anyone? Palmar, who states that: "I will be aggressive and fair. I will be active and logical. If at any point of the game my logic doesn't hold up you should lynch me. But it won't come to that." Instead of addressing Sandroba and Syllogism's points, Palmar said that "If we do this, we focus town on a few select individuals, which leads to order, which leads to discussion, which is good. And since the plan can not easily be manipulated we'll be fine." But wait... If that was the whole point, what was wrong with BC's plan then? He followed this with a lot of lines that served to sidetrack the discussion: How can someone who consistently finds scum on day 1 be this opposed to the notion of scumhunting on day 1? Did you roll scum? You're such a lazy scum. What's the alternative? (great question, considering that he knows the alternative - playing standard, instead of going for some fancy strategy - perfectly well) In the early game, Palmar was a more reasonable choice than BC but the newer players were drawn to BC because of his plan, even though the plan was bad. Palmar called out the flaws of the plan and claimed that he is "not going to come up with a plan, if that's what you're looking after." But then he saw an opportunity and seized it. *** Palmar and YoungMini. Palmar's case on YM is very weak for Palmar's standards. Read it and then read this. Of course, it has to be noted that due to the focus on the mayor elections, we don't actually have enough material for building proper cases. But I can't imagine a townie Palmar making a compromise with his standards and building a case that doesn't make a lot of sense. The case is based on YM being insane. Everything: the blatant contradiction with voting against Palmar (who is apparently too scary as mafia) but pro Sandroba; sabotaging himself again by claiming he never said that thing he said about Palmar not being good as mafia; the "I'm not sure he's mafia but I wan him dead anyway", etc. Palmar knows better than pushing for the lynch of someone who plays like this. If YM was mafia, his teammates would have intervened. The first thing a newbie player learns is that the advantage of being in constant contact with your teammates means that mafia players don't end up in situations like this just like that. Yet Palmar is happy to push for YM's lynch..... Palmar always urges everyone to look at how things are done, instead of what is done. It's even in his political manifesto. But he doesn't do this. He looks at what YM did - and not how he did it. *** Palmar and WBG. I have a question for the veterans who have been playing lately: how has WBG been doing? Last time I was in a game with him (about a month and a half ago), he made like 15 wrong calls and not a single correct one. I'm sure he has improved since - and it's not like he was a particularly bad played back then - but has he improved that much? I am aware that people change their play, of course. For example, Supersoft has been rather reserved this game (excluding the early day), which is not like him at all - but then again I've only played 2-3 games two-three months ago, so I wouldn't build a case on him based only on that. However, WBG and Palmar... There's something wrong going on. Palmar likes logic, right? Let's investigate! On November 25 2011 21:08 Palmar wrote: WBG is telling the truth, he's loud as scum. He's also loud as town. His tell is whether or not he's dumb. If he's dumb, he's scum, if he's smart and logical, he's town. For the purpose of my case, I will give some examples of WBG's play this game. Thse are just a few quotes that stood out. I don't think that WBG is mafia, so I haven't analysed him in-depth for now - and yet there's plenty to work with anyway. That's fine though, because a frame would mess things up no matter what. As I pointed out earlier, one of Palmar's main criticisms of BC's plan was that framing is really hard and this way we would give the mafia a better chance at framing the right player. Palmar's exact words again: Framing offensively is one of the hardest and most random things you can do in mafia, so if you know that some target has a slightly higher chance of being checked, I'd frame that in a heartbeat. Suggesting that flaming will not "mess things up no mater what" is a rather illogical thing to say. Anyone who supports my plan, IMO, is probably more likely to be town. This is not about WBG's plan being good or bad. The thing is that if his plan is obviously pro-town, the mafia would never go against it. If anything, they would be the first to announce their support. So there is nothing logical in this statement. also deciding on 10 people will not be hard, I do not imagine. We already have four, for example. WBG proposes four people and claims that we already have four people on the list 73 minutes later (19:36 / 20:49), even though no one expressed agreement with the proposed list (AmericanUmlaut said he's fine with two and that's it). WBG simply assumed that we're fine with them for some reason. Thinking that it would be easy to find at a time when we didn't have a single good case is just bad. Does that make WBG mafia? Not necessarily. WBG doesn't make too much sense but he is his usual self. Some good input, some bad; writing a lot and appearing knowledgeable to the new players. So I wouldn't call him town or mafia at the point. However, it is Palmar's attitude towards WBG that is worrying. Chronologically: On November 25 2011 06:43 Palmar wrote: Wherebugsgo is simple. He has only made logical calls up until now, and I think he's become a better player recently. Which means we just kill him as soon as he starts doing stupid stuff. If he never does stupid stuff, he's probably not scum. I have no interest in lynching WBG. He's aggressive, passionate and a bit of an asshole, kinda like myself. But he is good enough to be called out on bullshit, which makes him easy to deal with. It's much harder to call out newbies on bullshit, because they might be bullshitting because they just don't know better. Vets know not to say stupid stuff as town. On November 25 2011 18:32 Palmar wrote: Me, Syllogism, Sandroba, BC, Kita, Deconduo, WBG, Jackal and a few others On November 25 2011 19:49 Palmar wrote: He's only scummy to people who haven't played with him before. Unfortunately WBG may be one of the best scum players in this game, but he has ONLY made logical calls up until now. The moment he stops that, we hang him. On November 25 2011 21:08 Palmar wrote: WBG is telling the truth, he's loud as scum. He's also loud as town. His tell is whether or not he's dumb. If he's dumb, he's scum, if he's smart and logical, he's town. On November 25 2011 20:18 Palmar wrote: In order to make sure shitty cases don't end up on the list, I am giving certain experienced individuals a semi-veto power. Those people are: Palmar Sandroba Wherebugsgo Syllogism BloodyC0bbler Kitaman27 When speaking about WGB, Palmar starts with "has become a better player" followed by "is good at mafia" followed by "ONLY made logical calls up until now", "if he's smart and logical, he's town" - and has ended up with getting ready to appoint WBG to be one of the player with the power to veto. Instead of calling him out for the illogical posts quoted earlier, Palmar wants to give him additional power. Doesn't look logical to me whatsoever. *** Additional resources you might need:
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Daymor
New Zealand151 Posts
As far as I could tell the only person who offered a solid plan around the time of the early campaigning was BC, the other candidates offered guidelines to how they would act, several mentioned they would enact a LAL policy which I still believe is beneficial for the town's success as it encourages honesty and activity. This plan of BC's had attracted some criticism from various members, I think the main idea behind the plan is there, although it may be lacking a little in structure as BC outlined that he would provide 3 names for the DT's to check, in a game this size I imagine there are most likely 4+ DT's so I would think there would be some overlap of checks, which get wasted, also i was somewhat interested in how BC would determine these 3 names. WBG's addendum to BC's plan certainly adds more structure to the plan via outlining how the DT's should use their checks which I think is a really important addition, it should help cut down the overlap of checks and help reduce waste. It is probably also important to note that these plans are most important for the earlier days/nights when we have no clues to work on to aid us in analyzing the behaviour and post content of potentially scummy members. I would also like to add, obviously there is the potential for the Mafia Framer to throw a spanner in the works so to speak, but this is going to be the case in many plans. I think the biggest benefit to WBG's plan is that by providing a list of scummy candidates early, these people on the list are more likely to die earlier in the game which give the DT's the ability to start getting a read on their sanity earlier in the game. Which will allow them to be more effective in the later stages of the game. In conclusion, I am backing Palmar for Mayor. He has been active, is seeking to add potentially scummy targets to a DT watchlist and is backing (as of page 55) the currently most clearly outlined and effective plan to aid us in detection of the Mafia. Also to note; I am posting this as of reading page 55, if anything changes from here through to the current page I will update. | ||
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