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Gavin
United States10 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:49 xtfftc wrote: Gavin, don't pay attention to the bad mannered trolls - but bear in mind that town needs people to contribute instead if laying back. I hear you. I just don't want to say something that will be self-destructive to the town. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
' 'Analysis incoming (I'm starting it now based on what I have read over the last 15 pages. it'll take me a while. syllogism is also very scummy to me at this point. | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:50 sinani206 wrote: It's OK to make mistakes as town. Only mafia worry about mistakes. That's not true. Everyone worries about mistakes because no one wants to play badly. However, only mafia have to worry about mistakes. As town, the best you can do is relax - even if you are put under some pressure and the mafia attempt to start a bandwagon on you, this is your optimal play. So yeah, don't worry about mistakes (too much). | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:51 wherebugsgo wrote: sandroba is scum, get your votes off of him. ' 'Analysis incoming (I'm starting it now based on what I have read over the last 15 pages. it'll take me a while. syllogism is also very scummy to me at this point. At last someone with sense | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Excuse me? On November 26 2011 03:40 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote ##vote sandroba On November 26 2011 04:54 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote | ||
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Erandorr
2283 Posts
The first thing that caught my attention was his terrible campaign: + Show Spoiler + I'm going to run for mayor. Here's why: I'm town I'm not terrible at this game One of the biggest problems I've had in a couple of my last games is figuring out who mafia were but not being able to convince people to listen to me. Hopefully if I'm mayor people will be more willing to listen. As town, I usually get killed off night 1 or 2. It would be nice to have the protection to keep me alive a bit longer. As scum I try to stay out of the spotlight. I would never run for mayor as that would put too much scrutiny on me. Other players can attest to this. Now usually, when you activly try to get elected mayor as town, you put effort into it. You want to be in the spotlight and you want to convince everybody that you should be the one leading town. Scum often see campaigns as a quick way to gain some towncred. Notice his focus in the campaign and the intentions. He claims that he wants people to listen to him but does absolutely nothing in the way of getting heard / pushing himself in the spotlight. He then proceeds to explain that as Scum he would never run for mayor because it would focus too much attention on him. While that is technicly a valid point, it does look really bad when you are doing absolutely nothing to enforce your campaign. This campaign screamed "Look guys I am participating and in no way Scummy" instead of actually producing ideas or doing anything that would give him some attention. After one day of doing absolutely nothing he proceeds to withdraw,claiming a replacement in an other game as the reason. Now if you have 4 posts with zero content, are we really supposed to belive that its the time commitment that was the issue there? Now at the end of his campaign he tells us that he will probably support either Sandro or Palmar. (Notice the complete non commitment there) and after posting nothing of value for a long time he suddenly says this : Pretty sure WBG, Palmar and Sandroba are mafia, but thats just off gut reads. Now that does not look good, does it? Changes of heart are completely fine as long as you explain your reasoning behind it Syllo correctly calls him out on that, but the important aspect is that he does not do it on his own, but instead has to get forced to release the smallest pieces of information. Finally, he does not give actual reads on anything. He produces a list that should organize protection, but its a list that includes sinani thus ending the discussion about its value. It also blows my mind that he would include people in that list that he seems to be at least suspicious of, such as Palmar. | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
On November 26 2011 03:51 annul wrote: alright. fuck it. its bedtime for me soon, so i may as well do this now: Whereabouts in the US do you live that has your bedtime bang in the middle of the day? (sorry, I'm a slow reader) | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:51 wherebugsgo wrote: sandroba is scum, get your votes off of him. ' 'Analysis incoming (I'm starting it now based on what I have read over the last 15 pages. it'll take me a while. syllogism is also very scummy to me at this point. yeah that's what I thought about sandro as well from the very beginning but it was a gut feeling and I didn't find something that really nailed it so I never said a thing because saying someone is scum without a reason other than gutfeeling is probably not going to help town. Go ahead I want to read that one :p | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:56 syllogism wrote: Excuse me? Since he is going to deliver an analysis soon, day ends in 30+ hours, I can revote if I need to. So what? | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:57 Kurumi wrote: Since he is going to deliver an analysis soon, day ends in 30+ hours, I can revote if I need to. So what? Your comment appeared to imply you agreed with him on sandroba being scummy, despite just voting for him less than an hour ago. How is he making sense when he hasn't even said anything yet | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:59 syllogism wrote: Your comment appeared to imply you agreed with him on sandroba being scummy, despite just voting for him less than an hour ago. How is he making sense when he hasn't even said anything yet I unvoted to show that we should stop and wait for the analysis. It's kind of breakthrough, I would probably revote anyway (or just say "analysis is bs, my vote stays on roba) | ||
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unsmart
United States322 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:51 wherebugsgo wrote: sandroba is scum, get your votes off of him. ' 'Analysis incoming (I'm starting it now based on what I have read over the last 15 pages. it'll take me a while. syllogism is also very scummy to me at this point. I'm leaning in the same direction, eagerly awaiting your analysis. General sense is that he keeps trying to discredit the DT plan while not giving another alternative than let them do their own thing. As an experiment, and to get a bit of experience, going to try to filter his posts and bring my own analysis. My vote for Mayor seems to be heading to Palmer now. I like that he has picked up WBG's modified DT plan. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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Erandorr
2283 Posts
On November 26 2011 05:14 sandroba wrote: I agree with errandor that decon is likely scum, but for diferent reasons. However, for the same reason as BC, I'll refrain on posting any case or lynching him day 1. Sandro, could you explain the DT plan to me? I am having a hard time to understand how giving scum that much information can be a good thing | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On November 26 2011 00:46 xtfftc wrote: WBG, could you please do me a favour? I have no idea what it is that BC was trying to say - and this is not the first example. Perhaps it's just me but could you break it down example step by step? Like this: - day 1 have a green check - after day 1 hit a miller (how do you know you hit a miller?) - hit miller and have red (whatever this means) ... - profit I would ask BC but he went to work and I have to vote before that. Ok say day 1 you check and result is townie. If you then check day 2 and get red and the red flips miller you instantly know your sanity. If you hit miller first and he dies and flips and you got a result as red then you know if you ever hit a green check what your sanity is. Framers target checks or miller checks serve to make your sanity clarification from sane/naive or insane/paranoid pairings into sane/paranoid and insane/naive. This lets you quickly and far more easily determine your sanity. GF's do not interfere with determining ones sanity at all. People need to realize that millers/framers are far more troublesome when there are only sane dts in a game. In a case where you have multiple sanities they only serve as ways to more easily confirm your own sanity. Until a dt has their sanity determined all their checks are near useless. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Why Sandroba is Scum I'm going to work backwards into the thread, since I've been working like that this game. On November 26 2011 03:05 sandroba wrote: If I'm elected I'm going to lynch sinani206. Yes, this is the guy who normally is suspicious as fuck regardless of alignment, posts a lot of one liners and says scummy things all the time. As town he calls people scum or town for no reason whatsoever, but he speaks his mind. But that's not what we are seeing from him this game. He is straight up TROLLING with no purpose behind his posts.This is a common tactic for mafia to have one or more of their members do to shit up the thread, especially in a huge game where the importance of each member to the team as a whole is reduced. sinani206 is the perfect candidate for that kind of stuff, since everyone that has played with him normally cuts him some slack for saying scummy shit. This behaviour can also be observed in the first game he played on TL where he was mafia (mafia XXXIX) when he acted like he was dumb to get away with posting nonsense. This is typical sinani206 scum behaviour and a complete shift in his meta from when he is town. It is a shift in a very mafia oriented way, since as town he has absolutely no reason to post like he has been doing and he is not known to troll regardless of alignment. His behaviour only helps him to hide, because his normal play would most likely get him lynched regardless of alignment. Okay, look at this lynch choice. It's sinani206. Anyone who has played a game here before will know that sinani206 is one of the hardest players to get a read on because his style of play is, quite frankly, terrible. The first two games I played with him, I was kinda surprised anyone could be that bad, but he has proved himself in consistency. For all you new players, now that you have this fact, this is called a meta argument. You make the case for or against a player based on how their play this game matches to their play in a previous game. You should show how their play is different in either a scum-oriented or town-oriented manner (depending on what you see). You could also use a meta argument to draw similarities from past games. The ultimate conclusion is that you take the alignment from the past game and apply the meta argument to either conclude the player is the same, or the opposite alignment. We see in this post that sandroba says that sinani is playing differently this game compared to games he has played as town in the past. This is false. In fact, this is completely wrong, so much so, in fact, that I am shocked sandro is even trying to push this lynch on day 1. Sinani is best left to a lurker bane shot. Why the hell would we waste a lynch on him? What's most shocking is that sandro says sinani doesn't troll when he is town. This is shocking because sandro played a game hosted by Ace, not even 2 months ago, in which sinani trolled so hard that half the town raged and lynched him. The game I am talking about is Some Mafia Game, hosted by Ace. Here is sinani's filter from that game. What was sinani's alignment in SMG? Town. Yet, he made posts like this gem: On September 11 2011 05:29 sinani206 wrote: just got here have nothing else to say bro get away from me thought i would stop in again just in case anyone would get mad at my vote and it turns out they did so cool story bro but im voting for wbg no point wasting my time with anything else im being as efficient as possible bro get out and this one: On September 11 2011 09:01 sinani206 wrote: im the only thing going on and this one: On September 11 2011 23:41 sinani206 wrote: I've done absolutely nothing useful this game. The playstyle thing was a lame excuse for not contributing. I'm not going to try to make something up. I'm wasting town's time by being alive anyway, so just lynch me. ....you get the idea. The worst part about this is that sandroba actually played in this same game. He was town with myself and sinani. Yet, he is using the argument that sinani is trolling this game to call him scum. I think not. That's the most damning evidence. I don't have much to add, I'll just ask sandro a couple questions: On November 24 2011 23:37 sandroba wrote: I'd like you to answer my question. About the DT plan: That does not help shit. First because DTs are extremelly unreliable this game, because there are 4 counter DT measures in place, which is down right crazy by the host (sanity/millers/framers/gf). DTs should definetely not claim early on since their usefulness will grow imensely as the game goes on. When early on a check by a DT is worth almost nothing in this game, several checks couple with analysis later can certainly turn a game, since statistically, the bulk of your checks are way harder to be tempered with. That means any plans trying to stablish early sanity of DTs are useless, especially when you point them to a list, allowing it to be tempered with at much more ease. What DTs should be doing is breadcrumbing their checks (that means you use a clever way to say someone is town/scum without revealing you are DT; you should be careful not to confuse town about your checks in case you die) everyday so we can have the checks in case he gets shot. We should be able to deduce the parity by seeing previous flips. To answer some questions people asked me: What differentiates me from other vets is that I normally have really good reads. Palmar, if town is a good scumhunter too and he does seem town to me so far. Someone asked me "what if you are scum never perform the kills?". If I was scum, at some point, even if it took being the last from the scum team, I would have to shoot. We have to kill all scum to win, so the possibility that I would never appear in the clues as scum doesn't exist, unless scum wins with more than one player left. The fact is, were I scum I would be lynched way before that point, because I'm taking full acountability here. If I'm using dubious reasoning and getting townies lynched, I fully expect the town to lynch me, but that won't happen. I will always provide ample analysis and reasoning on the subjects I think are scum and if I used flawed logic I expect many players here to identify it. The truth is that elected roles almost always end up being lynched before the game ends. That makes me a good mayor, because I offer accountability. Palmar is also a good option, because if he is scum, it will show soon through his actions. Other people that are running are way more suceptible of making mistakes and getting mislynched if they are town. Alright. Sandro, I have two questions. In blue: If you think DTs should be able to determine their parity from previous flips, why do you insist that a plan that gifts them these required flips is bad? That's actually fairly contradictory. In red: Lastly, since you normally have stellar scumreads, why is it that you have played so cautiously so far to only condemn one person, with that one person being, of all people, sinani206? You defend youngminii and you buddy up with syllo, who is being incredibly lazy right now. He's being so lazy he didn't even bother running for mayor. I can understand from PYP, where we had PMs, he might not have wanted to run after Mig+Radfield started running, but in this game he just blindly supports you. There are no PMs to confirm your identities through personal means in this game. I know you guys might have similar mentalities, but the fact that you are both doing strange things is really unsettling. It could mean one of you is scum and buddying up to the other, but it could also mean both of you are scum. Syllo hasn't posted terribly much yet (aforementioned laziness) but I wouldn't be so surprised to see both of you as scum. Palmar, you can take sandro as an addition to the list if you'd like. This is my analysis. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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unsmart
United States322 Posts
On November 26 2011 05:14 syllogism wrote: It's a bad plan and do you realize blues operate on their own in almost every single game? There's a reason why it's standard play: because it's optimal. When you've PMs or other nonstandard mechanics, things change, but in a huge standard game you don't need to offer an alternate plan when someone suggests non-standard play and you can convincingly argue why it's stupid. From what I understand it is standard for DTs to act on their own in normal games. However from the size of this game I'm not sure that is optimal at all. Simply calling the plan bad and just pointing to standard play is not enough. When you say the plan is bad you need to point out why is is bad and then show how standard play would be better. So far I haven't seen that. I'm not sure I'm so different from other noobs when it comes to not fully understanding the way the game normally plays. The majority of us are not going to read through other games when it takes so much time to look through and analyze this one by itself. So as a vet you need to both show why the proposed plan is bad and why unorganized play is good. Otherwise, at least from my perspective, you come off as slightly scummy. | ||
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