EPTTL Mafia XLVII - Page 68
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 26 2011 08:50 Risen wrote: No worries, I didn't view it as an attack. Onwards. Hmm.. I have no idea how I missed your post on DTs, and I apologize for this oversight. Your post on how the DTs should operate was a good one, but I don't see how it contradicts with Sandroba's regardless of his alignment. Explain? I am not referring to his later arguments when I say this, only his original post with bolded The correct way to use DTs this game. And regarding the sinani lynch, half his posts are America Fuck Yeah! and the other half are simple responses (not quite true, but close enough). I just feel like he's maintaining so he can stall. As the thread has developed there are probably better mayor lynch targets, but I still feel like he just wants to sit around and vote/activate night powerz, scum behavior right? No prob, it just sounded like you hadn't read them, that's why I pointed it out. It contradicts with sandroba because sandroba doesn't support my plan. Sandroba says his way is the correct way to play a DT, I'm saying that if we want to ensure as many of our DTs become useful as quickly as possible, we need a plan to not only coordinate them but also to confirm or help confirm their sanities. Sandro's idea that his way is the proper way is misleading because playing a DT normally in this game could actually backfire. Trying to breadcrumb in a game this size is pointless, IMO, because people are not going to have time to breadcrumb hunt. Mafia might, town will definitely not be able to. And on sinani, yes, I realize that sinani's posts are not very good. However, the point of my post about sinani and why sandroba is pushing sinani is deeper than simply the content of sinani's posts. You haven't played mafia here, so it's understandable that you don't know what this means. This is why I asked you if you had read the post I made. Essentially, it boils down to this: sinani is always like that. We are trying to lynch scum, and sinani is not the optimal choice among a pool of 80 players. You will find much scummier targets and much better reasons for those targets than sinani, I assure you. In addition, what's most strange about sandro's campaign to lynch sinani is that his reasoning is not consistent with what all of us who have played with both players know about the two of them. Sandro is logical and a very good scumhunter as town. Sinani almost always is trollish or useless as town. Sandroba KNOWS this, yet he is pushing for sinani's lynch day 1. He has said he will have scumreads and he will actively scumhunt, but his best read is sinani and he has soft-defended youngminii. He has ignored deconduo, and if I know anything about sandroba he would be all over deconduo for the types of posts he has made so far if he is town and doing his job. This is highly disheartening because it probably means sandroba is scum. A town sandroba would never push sinani for a lynch day 1, he's smarter than that. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On November 26 2011 09:30 Hassybaby wrote: Syllo and sand, what do you think of xtfftc's analysis of Palmar's play this game? Not much yet, mostly due to him not actually having to push for lynches yet, which is typically when I get a better idea of his alignment. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On November 26 2011 09:34 wherebugsgo wrote: No prob, it just sounded like you hadn't read them, that's why I pointed it out. It contradicts with sandroba because sandroba doesn't support my plan. Sandroba says his way is the correct way to play a DT, I'm saying that if we want to ensure as many of our DTs become useful as quickly as possible, we need a plan to not only coordinate them but also to confirm or help confirm their sanities. Sandro's idea that his way is the proper way is misleading because playing a DT normally in this game could actually backfire. Trying to breadcrumb in a game this size is pointless, IMO, because people are not going to have time to breadcrumb hunt. Mafia might, town will definitely not be able to. And on sinani, yes, I realize that sinani's posts are not very good. However, the point of my post about sinani and why sandroba is pushing sinani is deeper than simply the content of sinani's posts. You haven't played mafia here, so it's understandable that you don't know what this means. This is why I asked you if you had read the post I made. Essentially, it boils down to this: sinani is always like that. We are trying to lynch scum, and sinani is not the optimal choice among a pool of 80 players. You will find much scummier targets and much better reasons for those targets than sinani, I assure you. In addition, what's most strange about sandro's campaign to lynch sinani is that his reasoning is not consistent with what all of us who have played with both players know about the two of them. Sandro is logical and a very good scumhunter as town. Sinani almost always is trollish or useless as town. Sandroba KNOWS this, yet he is pushing for sinani's lynch day 1. He has said he will have scumreads and he will actively scumhunt, but his best read is sinani and he has soft-defended youngminii. He has ignored deconduo, and if I know anything about sandroba he would be all over deconduo for the types of posts he has made so far if he is town and doing his job. This is highly disheartening because it probably means sandroba is scum. A town sandroba would never push sinani for a lynch day 1, he's smarter than that. Makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: Palmar and the Plan. Palmar is a player capable of a lot of critical thought - and he is not afraid to voice his views. While he might be a bit more reserved with his harsh opinions in order not to scare the new players, this is no reason to agree with unreasonable plans. And indeed, he saw no reason to. A summary of his opinion on BC's plan, in Palmar's own words: However, when WBG proposed his changes, Palmar took a different stance: and Now, one aspect of WBG's plan is better: it makes it harder for framers to "fuck with it". But there's a lot of other issues. Palmar's thoughts on BC's plan: What are the other issues? You mention this repeatedly, like most people have, but you never actually said what they are. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: "All the drawbacks" haven't been addressed by WBC's plan. Even the bit about framers. Initially Palmar said that framers would be happy if they had a "slightly higher" chance of framing someone successfully. Well, they still do. Again, what are the drawbacks? The main drawback with BC's plan was that there are likely to be at least two framers (with 16 scum and 8 roles, vanilla inclusive, it's not farfetched to think so) and with only 2-3 targets the framer is ensured a successful hit. With 10, the framer has to guess. That addresses the main drawback of BC's plan, no? If this is not what you mean, again I ask you: what are "all these drawbacks" you keep speaking of? On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: Sandroba and Syllogisim, two of the players Palmar recognises as some of the best (if not the best) in this game, voiced their disagreement with WBC's plan - but Palmar didn't address their actual issues with the plan. Does that sound like Palmar to anyone? Palmar, who states that: "I will be aggressive and fair. I will be active and logical. If at any point of the game my logic doesn't hold up you should lynch me. But it won't come to that." Of course he addressed the issues. I addressed them too. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: Instead of addressing Sandroba and Syllogism's points, Palmar said that "If we do this, we focus town on a few select individuals, which leads to order, which leads to discussion, which is good. And since the plan can not easily be manipulated we'll be fine." But wait... If that was the whole point, what was wrong with BC's plan then? Can you quote where Palmar said only this? Why is it that you are trying to cherry pick my/Palmar's side of this discussion when you completely ignored the fact that syllo never responded to this question: On November 25 2011 21:34 Palmar wrote: I think one or the other might be scum. Sandroba is using terrible logic. I want to hear how syllogism feels about sandroba. ? That was a very valid question from Palmar, but syllo pretty much ignored it. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: He followed this with a lot of lines that served to sidetrack the discussion: (great question, considering that he knows the alternative - playing standard, instead of going for some fancy strategy - perfectly well) Those are not questions to sidetrack discussion and you know it. Sandro is a very good scumhunter, all of the players who have played with him before know this. Thus, it is incredibly weird that he would push a very easy lynch in sinani on day 1, he opposes a plan that requires us to analyze players, and he knows that the alternative, "playing standard" as you say, does not help the DTs find their sanities, nor does it help new players get accustomed to doing what they're supposed to be doing. If we play standard in this game, I guarantee you that we will run into problems with respect to fake claims and actual DTs pushing wrong targets because they don't know their own sanities. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: In the early game, Palmar was a more reasonable choice than BC but the newer players were drawn to BC because of his plan, even though the plan was bad. Palmar called out the flaws of the plan and claimed that he is "not going to come up with a plan, if that's what you're looking after." But then he saw an opportunity and seized it. ??? On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: *** Palmar and YoungMini. Palmar's case on YM is very weak for Palmar's standards. Read it and then read this. Of course, it has to be noted that due to the focus on the mayor elections, we don't actually have enough material for building proper cases. But I can't imagine a townie Palmar making a compromise with his standards and building a case that doesn't make a lot of sense. The case is based on YM being insane. Everything: the blatant contradiction with voting against Palmar (who is apparently too scary as mafia) but pro Sandroba; sabotaging himself again by claiming he never said that thing he said about Palmar not being good as mafia; the "I'm not sure he's mafia but I wan him dead anyway", etc. Palmar knows better than pushing for the lynch of someone who plays like this. If YM was mafia, his teammates would have intervened. The first thing a newbie player learns is that the advantage of being in constant contact with your teammates means that mafia players don't end up in situations like this just like that. Yet Palmar is happy to push for YM's lynch..... Palmar always urges everyone to look at how things are done, instead of what is done. It's even in his political manifesto. But he doesn't do this. He looks at what YM did - and not how he did it. You don't show ANYTHING here. None of your logic makes sense. YM said he never said Palmar was better as town as scum, despite there existing an exact quote of him saying exactly that. That's a blatant lie. YM is a liar. All YM has done is slander and attack Palmar and his campaign. The case on YM is not weak by any means because YM has done nothing to advance a town agenda. Tell me, what has YM done that is actually productive and conducive to a good town atmosphere? Can you name one thing? Lastly, you make a terrible assumption that if YM was mafia his teammates would've intervened. That's not necessary. If I were scumbuddies with YM and people started suspecting him I wouldn't touch him with a 60 foot pole because I would not want to be connected with someone who is that bad at staying hidden. Mafia players end up in situations like that all the time. I'm sorry, but you just don't know what you're talking about. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: *** Palmar and WBG. I have a question for the veterans who have been playing lately: how has WBG been doing? Last time I was in a game with him (about a month and a half ago), he made like 15 wrong calls and not a single correct one. I'm sure he has improved since - and it's not like he was a particularly bad played back then - but has he improved that much? I am aware that people change their play, of course. For example, Supersoft has been rather reserved this game (excluding the early day), which is not like him at all - but then again I've only played 2-3 games two-three months ago, so I wouldn't build a case on him based only on that. Who cares how I've been doing? Why do you even mention this when it has no bearing on your actual argument? This entire paragraph is just pointless fluff. Lastly, you say I made 15 wrong calls in XLIV. Apparently you weren't playing the same game I was, since you were the one we tried to lynch since you were far scummier than the actual scum that game. Don't insult my play when you have nothing to be proud of yourself. If you want to insult my play, at least make it accurate. I didn't make 15 wrong calls that game, that's an exaggeration. It was my first game. I was bound to make wrong calls. I at least made a few correct ones, namely in thinking that node and bum were scum. If I recall correctly, you were the medic who protected four scum in a row. So now you're calling me bad? Why even include this in your argument? On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: However, WBG and Palmar... There's something wrong going on. Palmar likes logic, right? Let's investigate! For the purpose of my case, I will give some examples of WBG's play this game. Thse are just a few quotes that stood out. I don't think that WBG is mafia, so I haven't analysed him in-depth for now - and yet there's plenty to work with anyway. As I pointed out earlier, one of Palmar's main criticisms of BC's plan was that framing is really hard and this way we would give the mafia a better chance at framing the right player. Palmar's exact words again: Suggesting that flaming will not "mess things up no mater what" is a rather illogical thing to say. Way to go, you said the complete opposite of what I said. I said a frame will ALWAYS mess things up, no matter what you do. Stop twisting my words, please. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: This is not about WBG's plan being good or bad. The thing is that if his plan is obviously pro-town, the mafia would never go against it. If anything, they would be the first to announce their support. So there is nothing logical in this statement. I think anyone who supports my plan is more likely to be town because they actually read it. I didn't say anything about people who do not support my plan. I purposely left that out so people like you can get baited. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: WBG proposes four people and claims that we already have four people on the list 73 minutes later (19:36 / 20:49), even though no one expressed agreement with the proposed list (AmericanUmlaut said he's fine with two and that's it). WBG simply assumed that we're fine with them for some reason. Thinking that it would be easy to find at a time when we didn't have a single good case is just bad. I didn't assume anything. Those four people were already listed by other players before me. No one has expressly disagreed with any of them yet. The one player that I am perhaps wary of still including on that list is Erandorr, but the other 3 are still good bets. You're saying we didn't have a single good case? This is because you think the case on youngminii is bad. Sorry, but that's your opinion. This does not in any way, shape or form show how I have inappropriately used logic. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: Does that make WBG mafia? Not necessarily. WBG doesn't make too much sense but he is his usual self. Some good input, some bad; writing a lot and appearing knowledgeable to the new players. So I wouldn't call him town or mafia at the point. So your whole goal is to simply say I never make sense? On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: However, it is Palmar's attitude towards WBG that is worrying. Chronologically: When speaking about WGB, Palmar starts with "has become a better player" followed by "is good at mafia" followed by "ONLY made logical calls up until now", "if he's smart and logical, he's town" - and has ended up with getting ready to appoint WBG to be one of the player with the power to veto. Instead of calling him out for the illogical posts quoted earlier, Palmar wants to give him additional power. Doesn't look logical to me whatsoever. Really? Why does it not make sense? Why does it not look logical to you? Again, you keep stating opinions. You NEVER once said why something is illogical. In the end all you ended up doing is rephrasing the quotes in your own words. The stuff highlighted in red is nothing but paraphrase. You literally say nothing other than parrot Palmar's own words and then call it bad because you think, for whatever reason, what I have been saying is illogical. Remember, you never actually showed how anything I said was illogical, like you just did here, all you did was parrot my own words and then call it illogical. On November 26 2011 07:41 xtfftc wrote: *** Additional resources you might need:
Wonderful. Your post is complete fluff. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 26 2011 09:36 syllogism wrote: The thing is that, as I noted earlier, there are dozens of safer targets for scum sandroba to "push" and that's how he would most of the time play as scum in a situation like this. Pushing for sinani as sandroba is not safe at all. syllo this WIFOM. You harp on this one point when there are plenty of other things that make sandro look equally bad. | ||
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sinani206
United States1959 Posts
Why to vote for me (not a resume) So some of you may have thought "what a troll lurker this guy is." Well I'm neither. At least, I don't intend to be. But combined with my meta, my play this game apparently seems pretty bad. Well here is why I should be mayor of this town.
God bless America. Good night. | ||
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Nisani201
United States1400 Posts
On November 26 2011 10:08 sinani206 wrote: Why to vote for me (not a resume) So some of you may have thought "what a troll lurker this guy is." Well I'm neither. At least, I don't intend to be. But combined with my meta, my play this game apparently seems pretty bad. Well here is why I should be mayor of this town.
God bless America. Good night. the fuck | ||
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sinani206
United States1959 Posts
america | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On November 26 2011 10:08 sinani206 wrote: Why to vote for me (not a resume) So some of you may have thought "what a troll lurker this guy is." Well I'm neither. At least, I don't intend to be. But combined with my meta, my play this game apparently seems pretty bad. Well here is why I should be mayor of this town.
God bless America. Good night. I really can't tell if you're being serious with this post or not. Maybe everyone was right about you not being worth the lynch. This is just nuts, you can't seriously expect to win mayor at this point, and yet you claim to be a veteran. You're an idiot if you are a veteran, and putting a big target over your head if you're mafia. Call me out if I'm wrong here peoples. | ||
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Benjef
United Kingdom6921 Posts
I really can't put a label on him. I don't think hes worth a lynch yet but if he was mayor I can't imagine good things happening. Tbh I could see Mafia just killing him though cause he just annoys em so.... =/. | ||
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tnkted
United States1359 Posts
Well, here's what it means: Siani is probably town, or he'd be claiming a detective mayor. It also means that he's probably not going to get shot by mafia, who won't want to waste two bullets on a single player this early in the game. Siani that was REALLY stupid, because now you can't use your vet power to soak up a bullet. Ugh. DUMB DUMB DUMB | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
Apart from the fact that claiming vet makes absolutly 0 percent sense at this point in time, i dont see why either palmar or sandro absolutly without a doubt have to be scum, maybe you can enlighten me with, oh i dont know, Analysis? | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
Mayor means you cannot be killed while the bodygaurds are alive. Vet means you get an extra life. therefore being a vet won't have any impact on being a better/worse mayor. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
On November 26 2011 10:40 redFF wrote: sinani probably isn't a vet, hes just claiming so he can live to lategame and show off his mad skills. +24 GreYMisT points. | ||
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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