EPT/in
Resurrection Mafia
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Ace
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On September 01 2011 11:14 Varpulis wrote: You want me to refute an opinion you have about similarities in my play as scum 3 or 4 games ago, which i obviously don't agree with? You have given me nothing to refute. just drop it. No point in even talking about this. | ||
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On September 01 2011 09:54 Varpulis wrote: I have a proposal, for the purpose of maximizing efficiency with our mandated double lynch. For the first day, maybe the first 2, we lynch a scummy person, one of average activity, and the scummiest lurker. This achieves all of the goals of a day one lynch (lynch somebody who people have given an opinon on and who will give information when/if we see them flip, as per the goal of a normal game), as well as eliminating a lurker. Lurkers are hard to read and dare i say distracting to the town as the game goes on, so i'd like to take advantage of the tools given to us and get rid of them early. As the game continues we will have more information to go on, and the chances of us accurately lynching more than one scum are increased, so we can lynch normally. I think we should follow this | ||
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Neither are, and neither one is specific enough behavior to even matter. | ||
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On September 01 2011 11:57 jcarlsoniv wrote: Except...it would make sense that he would be "trying to look pro-town" if he were scum. The scum are the ones who would be "trying to look pro-town". He is posting guidelines that are delightfully obvious. The things he lists are things that should happen in any town, and it's the scum's job to want to make them happen. The people who are town are town. The people who are not town want to look town. I know you are a good scum hunter, Ace. And I know these are things you know. Why would you be so quick to refute the possibility of scum behavior? Everyone is trying to look pro-town. It prevents you from getting thought of as lynch bait. I'm not refuting the possibility of scummy behavior. I'm pointing out that something as inane as "he's trying to look pro-town" isn't going to help us find Scum. Town sided players also tend to look pro-town at times too you know? | ||
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Behold! A new day! I've just gotten off the ship from the rich town of Senseville and landed in Liquidia. I heard there are endless opportunities for success around here, at least according to the tour guide. However, I've heard some rumors that there are some rather unsavory characters around here. Apparently some fellows think they are above the law, how terrible! I hope the commoners and the police find these bad people and deal with them. If I didn't have business to attend to I'd deal with them myself! This is just my first entry but I'm sure it won't be my last! Time to see what exciting new things are out there, au revoir! P.S. - there is a slight lingering smell of something like cheese around here. What is that? ~End~ | ||
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My guide pointed me into the direction of a forested area on the island of Liquidia. It took me days but clearing most of the woods I have found something interesting. I appear to have stumbled onto some primitive pulpit the commoners refer to as "The Village Square". Evil is afoot, and by god they are trying to find the vermin! How sad it is to see them accuse each other to the death over crumbs, squabbling like rats on a sinking ship. Some of these commoners are even shadier than others. Even worse, some of the jubjubs are saying who they think is surely innocent and the trial just started! Oh dear, I better stick around and see how his turns out. A few of these commoners do have some smarts though. I better pay extra attention to them. ~End~ | ||
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Let chaos reign! | ||
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Check the corpse of Sinani. If you dont say anything once the corpse is checked, I will take your silence as confirmation of Sinani's innocence. That way the priest can revive him knowing he is town aligned. Otherwise take the chance and speak out if you find Sinani to be Scum. | ||
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On September 03 2011 09:57 jcarlsoniv wrote: Im pretty sure mafia kp was 3. I figured there might be 5 or 6 mafia in the game. So, assuming I was right, that means we either hit 1 or 0 scum with lynches. I'm hoping we hit 1. The double lynch plus no nights into 3 mafia kp makes deaths very fast. We can assume 2 will come back today with resurrect + reanimate. Idk, it's all kind of overwhelming... Ace's Journal Day 2 Entry 1 One of the creatures shows a fascinating infatuation with mathematics. How amazed was I see to see it draw the number "5" in the sand, using only his left pinky toe at that!. Sadly, when I tried to communicate with the cretin, it showed no ability at reason or logic, and quickly defecated on the figure it made, grinning at me like some impetuous demon. Intriguing if I dare say. ~End~ | ||
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On September 04 2011 00:51 jcarlsoniv wrote: I would want confirmation on this from iGrok. Cuuuuuuz that's stupid. If we killed a scum, that sucks for them, but we killed a scum. The rules say mafia kp is n/2. If we lynch a scum, that reduces scum numbers. o wait I forgot sinani died by lynch, not night kill. Nevermind. | ||
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Why are you asking everyone for their Town and Scum reads? Think past your ass for 5 minutes here. It's a no flip game, no information roles except ONE is revealed in the OP, and you aren't sure of the Mafia count. What the fuck is anyone's Town reads going to accomplish right now but to clutter the thread and lead to bullshit? Secondly telling everyone your town reads opens up to Scum manipulation. Your votes can't criss cross your Town reads or you'll be called out by any decent Scum reading the thread. You shouldn't give your Town reads early because the Mafia can see what players don't have strong support, leading to the easy sheepish behavior by the Town to lynch the person with the least friends. Stop doing it. Stop talking about "Town tells, Scum tells, and Null tells". Not one of you have a fucking clue how to use them. Makes my heard hurt reading posts by some moron trying to fit a square peg in a round hole while he has monkey shit on his face. Stop talking about the balance of the Scum team. You don't know how iGrok chose to pick teams, and even f you got an inkling it's not going to get you very far. Likewise, stop trying to say "if this guy is Scum the this one has to be". Are you dumb? We dont have any flips yet, and get them one at a time. You've got to be retarded to speculate on something that even in normal setups takes some voting wagons and post analysis to figure out. Now on to some real scum hunting since I left you jubjubs alone and see that you still suck like shit. Amazingly the ability to read and reason hasn't improved in 2 months. redFF's claim is probable. but not likely. I'm going to do this in TWO ways. Just follow sit back and take a seat, and dont drool on my chair. The main issue with redFF's claim is this: On September 03 2011 10:32 redFF wrote: im secret coroners apprentice, checked varp and sinani both town ressurect sinani plz. On September 03 2011 10:32 redFF wrote: i become coroner if coroner dies On September 04 2011 07:05 redFF wrote: im secret coroners apprentice, i can check twice a day. On September 04 2011 07:29 redFF wrote: i got both alignment and roles, revive sinani over varp. i dont have any checks left tho, since im just a reserve coroner, not a full blown one. Back up roles never work like this, and this would be borderline criminal. First of all backup roles aren't used much because it penalizes the Scum team for performing well. The only instance of backup roles I ever see is when the Town success hinges on that one role. It is possible that there is a backup Coroner in the setup. But the backup role is always an exact copy of the original role - never more powerful. Check it out: Coroner Can look at a corpse and determine alignment and role. May be used any time, and will instantly return the information (as soon as I get the pm). How is it that the back up Coroner can check 2 people while the original can only check one? This doesn't seem right. Secondly if you really are the backup Coroner tell us both people you checked out, the alignments and the roles. You haven't exactly revealed this information easily and this is a major reason why I don't believe you. Even assuming there is an imbalanced backup Coroner role like you said, this would mean you aren't actually thinking about how the game works. Check it: Resurrected Players will live until they are killed again. If you revealed the roles, at worst you'd let them be able to use their powers and get killed again. However, you just outed your own self as the back up Coroner. Just thinking things through for more than 10 seconds after seeing THREE people die wouldn't it make sense for you to show some restraint? Thats exactly why I posted this earlier: On September 03 2011 09:42 Ace wrote: Coroner, I know you have a pretty tricky job to do but I'm going to help you out. Since you can't communicate with me I'll just give you a name: Check the corpse of Sinani. If you dont say anything once the corpse is checked, I will take your silence as confirmation of Sinani's innocence. That way the priest can revive him knowing he is town aligned. Otherwise take the chance and speak out if you find Sinani to be Scum. You could have just bandwagoned this point and made it a big priority. You wouldn't have had to out yourself, and the priest who should be reading the fucking thread would understand - Sinani is innocent because the Coroner never spoke out again him. Your actions just don't add up for an actual Coroner or Town aligned player that would be thinking for more than 2 minutes. I don't believe you could actually be this stupid (well, maybe) so I'm calling your claim bullshit. Varpulis has been killed (lynch). sinani206 has been killed (lynch). Drazerk has been killed. Jackal58 has been killed. Snkowman has been killed. Of the people you checked, 2 died by lynch which above all else are Town influenced lynches. 3 people died by Night Kill which above all else are almost certainly Scum influenced. But you checked the people that were lynched. Bullshit. | ||
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The only reason you'd check Sinani or Varp is to see if they were Scum lynched by the Town. Right? That means you'd speak out if you found them to be Scum. But you found Sinani to be Town. Why would you speak out on this when I already showed a way to not reveal yourself. You said it yourself - the real Coroner died. You just saw 3 people get capped. Why reveal yourself? It doesn't add up on both accounts. I dont believe you are this stupid. You would have to know you are going to be killed if this holds, ending the game for the Town. You'd die, and even if Sinani is Coroner he'd die immediately. Between the 2 of you, you would only get off 3 checks by Day 3. Game over. I can't take your claim seriously. The real Coroner would not Counter Claim in this situation because it's not LYLO so it would be dumb. A Real Cop doesn't CC Scum claiming Cop unless the Town is seriously buying it and will lynch a Townie. No one is getting lynched over your claim so the Coroner has no reason to Counter Claim. Or he's dead. | ||
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On September 04 2011 09:31 redFF wrote: i assume coroner has more checks than me, but can probably also use two a day. :/ Coroner Can look at a corpse and determine alignment and role. May be used any time, and will instantly return the information (as soon as I get the pm). The OP explicitly says A corpse per day. Your claim isn't looking believable. On September 04 2011 09:36 wherebugsgo wrote: The circular reasoning this creates should suggest to you that we should keep this guy alive for now. Bum and ON are definitely more scummy. Bum avoided lynch, has not really contributed anything, and sandroba claimed RB (when he was one of the players who voted bum). ON threw his vote on Kenpachi and then purposely left it there while he was STILL AROUND at the end of the day. Now again he's still pursuing Kenpachi when it's clear he's definitely not going to get lynched today. There's too much weird shit going on with red thanks to his shitty play that I'd rather leave him alive at least till tomorrow. With ON and Bum hopefully out of action tomorrow we can lynch red and someone else. There is no circular reasoning here - this is pretty simple to follow. Try and keep up. redFF checks Sinani and Varp and by his own admission: On September 04 2011 09:37 redFF wrote: and yes ace that was the original intention to see they were scum because i figured just checking the nightkilled players would be less useful then checking the lynches. He checked to see if they were Scum but found them to be Town. If he outs them as being Town then he'd also have no problem checking the 3 Night Killed people. HOWEVER, he is the BACKUP coroner right? That means he is the last one. Why the hell would he out himself just for Sinani when he just saw 3 people get Night Killed. He'll die by Day 3 and the Town will have no Coroners left. The game is essentially over at that point. Think about this for more than 5 seconds. As for your bolded that doesn't even make any sense. Bum avoiding a lynch doesn't make him Scummy, and it has no relation to sandroba's alleged role block. Even if sandroba voted for Bum, assuming bum is Scum why would that give him cause to RB sandroba? That doesn't add up at all. Faulty logic there. Your second point also makes no sense. Most votes wins, not majority. ON leaving his vote anywhere when there are low vote counts to die and a role that has double voting power means this tells you nothing unless Kenpachi dies by low vote count. If red is playing like shit (very high possibility) and weird stuff is going on it makes sense to lynch him. An unconfirmed claim that is an automatic game over if he dies? Why are you even thinking about bum and ON? you yourself said that they probably wouldnt be a backup coroner, so if coroner died you know they would stay silent and sinani would probably be resurrected. Did you take a dead coroner into account when you made your post? Yes, and even if I didn't why would it matter? If the Coroner dies and never says anything then we just take the chance and revive Sinani. You still can't explain why a backup role thats pretty important to the Town in a no flip game would out himself on Day 2, knowing the original role died and saw 3 people get NK'd the previous night. Add in that there is nothing in the OP that says we have protective roles. Your claim also can't be confirmed, and you brought up some bullshit scenario about Counter Claiming that took 3 seconds of brain power to dismiss. Every scenario I look at your claim comes off as a high risk, low reward play. Even worse your insistence on reviving Sinani OVER Varpulis, if they are both indeed Town tells me, and any Mafia with half a brain that killing you and Sinani at tonight ends the game for the Town. You can't be THIS stupid. You are lying. | ||
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On September 04 2011 09:42 redFF wrote: you only get lynched as town if your bad, not your attacker's fault you played scummy. meh ima go now, i've said everything ive needed to say. You deserve a refund for whoever sold you that. Town players get lynched for all kinds of reasons and some of the time it isn't their fault. | ||
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On September 04 2011 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: BOOM. Now I think Ace needs to come back and switch his vote off redFF. Ace come in and weigh in on this revelation we have here! doesn't change anything. iGrok hasn't confirmed or denied anything about redFF's role. It still doesn't help explain why a backup role would out himself. No one can play this badly. I'm not buying it and my vote is staying where it is. Go talk to someone else because your wasting my time. | ||
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1.) no flips on death 2.) people do ridiculous things anyway Look at it this way: On death no one flips roles or alignment. When a player is revived from what we know, they dont flip then either. So the Mafia has every incentive to claim Coroner. The real Coroner can not counter claim them. Even if the Mafia Coroner got killed, the real Coroner dies by NK and no one would ever know the difference. The Mafia Coroner already knows who is Town and who is not. The only thing that separates him from the actual Coroner is the ability to find out a Role. But then the Mafia Coroner can just hide behind the fact that he doesn't want to reveal any roles to the Mafia. I dont know if the Scum are this smart, but if they are and banned redFF from the QT I could see them coming up with this idea. | ||
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igrok didn't confirm or deny anything because it would be silly. It's in the fucking OP Coroner Can look at a corpse and determine alignment and role. May be used any time, and will instantly return the information (as soon as I get the pm). He said some roles are INCOMPLETE. Not that they act differently from whats stated in the OP. The Coroner role states it can check A corpse, not 2. This isn't an incomplete role description. Having 2 checks while stating it has 1 is bastard modding. | ||
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That was cute. But your still terrible. | ||
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How about you go ahead and give a "long winded analysis" of why I'm Scum. Go for it so I can pick it apart like and eat your face like I do to all Scum everywhere. | ||
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derp? | ||
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iGrok can we skip all the bullshit and use my role now? I don't feel like waiting. | ||
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By the way you should claim if you're already gonna die. That way if you get rezzed you can do some damage on the way back from hell. | ||
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On September 05 2011 09:11 bumatlarge wrote: I'm alive :D Good another day with you guys and perhaps maybe someone will listen to me this time. Now that I've claimed, I'm assuming you want me to check my list? I'm with you bro, lets take out sandroba. | ||
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Dont you think that kinda is important in redFF's role description? lol | ||
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On September 05 2011 09:40 chaos13 wrote: Do Zombies count towards mafia numbers, or just KP? holy shit. Read the OP. | ||
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On September 05 2011 09:46 chaos13 wrote: holy shit. I see nothing in the OP that answers my question. Mafia KP is N/2 (rounded up). Zombies count towards KP. Reading is fun bro. | ||
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Jackal is telling the truth and he's legit. | ||
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On September 05 2011 09:50 sandroba wrote: Also we should not lynch zombie today. We lynch bum who is 100% scum and ace who is 95% scum. That will keep kp neatly at one even if the game is not over somehow, so killing off ressed players is a waste today. So that when you screw up the lynch, Mafia KP remains constant and you get your kills off. Nice idea, but I'm on to you. | ||
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I'm not going to discuss whether there are 3 or 4, or 7 Mafia because it doesn't matter as much as discussing how the roles possibly work. Something you keep failing to understand. redFF nor Sinani are confirmed town, so you better stop putting words out there like they definitely are. On September 06 2011 04:22 wherebugsgo wrote: Wtf why would mafia not res ON? That's 1 KP, mafia plus zombie= 1 KP. Gee, I wonder why. Pull your head out of your ass and think about it. On September 06 2011 00:13 chaos13 wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 4 scum in this setup. If it was a standard game, yeah probably just 3, but with the ability of town to confirm people like sinani and varp and resurrect them, and with roles like Daywalker (which unfortunately doesn't seem to be present) and Guardian Angel (assuming your claim is true) and the Pious Voter (assuming they don't suck at scumhunting) I would say town has a definite advantage that would be balanced out by 4 mafia. I don't want us to get stuck in a tunnel of believing there is only 3 scum and then be confused later. I also don't think mafia will zombify ON. There would be no point to it. He would be lynched immediately so all they've done is made us waste a lynch. They don't actually gain KP from it in the end. Instead they're more likely to revive a town player that was lynched or killed. Why wouldn't they? It turns town against town, essentially, forcing us to use a lynch against our own members. See, you guys dont even read the thread. Ok smart guy, tell me this: When did the Town confirm Sinani as town, and how did we do it? Show me. Outline it. I dare you. On September 06 2011 01:00 sandroba wrote: That's so cool you assume both coroners are telling the truth when you called them both scum. Also if mafia has 4 members we are not guaranteed to hit day3. Another point is that seeing all roles town most likely has this game is slightly town favored even considering only 2 checks. How many no flip games have you ever played in? Tell the truth How many games have you ever played in that you've seen a backup role? Tell the truth Doesn't matter, because the answer is "Less than Ace". Didn't you get roleblocked? Why are you still alive? And why are you so sure Sinani must be town? For someone who has been given a lot of leeway in terms of coming up with plans how could you overlook such a GLARING oversight? This is basic for anyone that's an above average Mafia player and should have been the first thing you noticed if you are as good as some of these scrubs believe you are. Coroner role listed in the OP No flip No Counter Claim ability of any role Proof by death is usually one of the obstacles that stops Mafia from doing too many powerful Gambits. Every good Scum player I've known on various internet forums and irl pretty much agree: No flip helps Scum because of the how hard it is to confirm Townies. Knowing this, most Townies won't just blindly roleclaim in a no flip game as they know there has to be a role or some special mechanic or circumstances for them to be believed. And you expect me to believe redFF or just let it fly because he might be stupid. K. But I've already outlined why 2 players that can't confirm each other or can't be confirmed are possibly Scum. The insistence in denying bumatlarge's claim but taking redFF's claim over his is pretty fishy. But let's get back to the roles. Once again I'm going to quote the OP because thats where anyone thats every played with their heads and broken games before starts. Use whats given to you: Coroner Can look at a corpse and determine alignment and role. May be used any time, and will instantly return the information (as soon as I get the pm). iGrok confirmed that some roles are incomplete. The Coroner role may very well have some other options - but that's it. Options. The role explicitly states you can look at a corpse. That means one. redFF somehow looked at 2 corpses. As a back up role. Back up roles can't be more powerful than the original. Then there is this major snag here: On September 05 2011 09:31 sinani206 wrote: OK, this is the deal. I am a Coroner. redFF was my Apprentice. When I was lynched Day 1, I had not used either of my checks (note: the role pm did not say there was a limit to checks per day) So redFF got them both when I died. He only used one, on Varpulis, but he said that he used one on me, too. But the thing is he knew that I was Coroner since he was my apprentice and decided to check someone else. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. Everyone, vote for Ace and bum. I am much more sure about bum being scum, just because this is the first game I've played with Ace. Also, assuming we have a 1/1/1 scum team of Minion, Necromancer and Inhibitor, and that we only have one priest, one of the people revived today besides me has a power (one who must have been killed by the minion on Day 1) and the third person is a Zombie. Since we know it was a Minion shot that killed the second revival, and because Mafia had only 2 regular KP on Day 1, the Daywalker has not yet used his shot. If you feel confident, use your shot today, on Ace or bum. If not, we can just lynch both of them and win either way. EZ PZ. A couple of issues. 1.) Why did redFF never claim Apprentice but Sinani did. This was redFF's claim: On September 03 2011 10:32 redFF wrote: im secret coroners apprentice, checked varp and sinani both town ressurect sinani plz. Apprentice vs Secret Coroner's Apprentice. Different role names. 2.) Now this one is a bit of a flyer because I dont know if iGrok knows about this, but I'm going to assume he does. In majority of games with backups, the original role and the backup either dont know they both exist, or the backup is not self-aware. This is an important caveat of games with back ups because if they both know each other exist they can both claim and prove the other role is legit. This is partially solved by it being a no flip game and having the coroner have to check out the dead claimant. They claimed coroner, oops. The other point is about being self aware, or knowing you are a backup. This can lead to all kinds of stupid shit happening but for the sake of argument lets keep it simple. I was watching redFF's claim very careful and when he claimed apprentice I was waiting to see if he would say he was a normal Townie and then suddenly became back up Coroner. This didn't happen though and made me extra skeptical. The chances of his shoddy role claim, being self-aware, and the original Coroner KNOWING there is a backup would be an amazing set of coincidences. Lets continue. 3.) sinani said he didn't use either of his checks. redFF gets both of them while he died. OK STOP. Once again I'm going to go off on a flyer here but this needs to be taken into context. I dont think iGrok would ever break a role like this. This is the first part of the explanation: Why would he punish the Mafia team like this? The Mafia correctly pops the Coroner on Day 1. The Town gets a back up Coroner who gets a Day 1 and Day 2 check, punishing the Mafia for hitting correctly on the first day. This is somewhat shoddy balance and if this is the case then so be it. [/quote] So redFF got them both when I died. He only used one, on Varpulis, but he said that he used one on me, too. But the thing is he knew that I was Coroner since he was my apprentice and decided to check someone else.[/quote] If he knew you were the Coroner being your apprentice then the game would be broken. At best, the back up would have a suspicion the real role exists, not the name of the actual player who has the role. That would be absurdly broken. A Police Chief role doesn't know the name of his Detectives precisely because knowing a confirmed innocent while having investigation powers leads to games where Scum get rolled. Second of all, how would you know that redFF's role description allows him to know you are the Coroner? Explain this. Now. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. What day is this? Day 1: You got 0 checks off Day 2: redFF got an extra check since you died? Day 3: you come back to life, but get one last check Why would iGrok give redFF 2 checks then if you have the chance to come back to life. Once again he'd be punishing the Scum team for performing well. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. Everyone, vote for Ace and bum. I am much more sure about bum being scum, just because this is the first game I've played with Ace. This is absurdly stupid for reasons I've outlined in past posts but I'll say it again: If ON is truly Scum then how does that implicate bumatlarge and myself? Explain where we are linked together. Prove it instead of just hiding behind speculation. For 2 roles like this to exist in the game AND for you to have foreknowledge of each other, plus the convenience of the checks seems too fishy to me. The fact that you immediately jumped on me for calling this out without even trying to understand the setup, not giving bum's claim serious consideration, glossing over the fact that the OP contradicts what redFF said, the shoddy linking of myself to ON and Bum, oh and one more major point: The game is guaranteed to last at minimum until Day 3. If you die Day 1 and do not get resurrected, then why would redFF lose his checks on Day 2 after using both of them. That just defeats the purpose of being a backup role. For someone who said he claimed because he is now useless this doesn't sit well. Especially since he originally claimed he can check twice per day On September 04 2011 07:05 redFF wrote: im secret coroners apprentice, i can check twice a day. Why did he never explicitly state you are the Coroner when he claimed? How come YOU have knowledge about his role but he never told us. Remember when I chastised redFF for claiming? Why didn't he do a full claim? His claim came in pieces. He never claimed how his role worked all at once and he has not given us Varpulis's role. Why not? Varpulis was town right? So you'd push the revival of the other pro-town player pretty hard right? He hasn't. This just can't all be coincidence can it? All of this? On September 03 2011 06:56 redFF wrote: kk since i have a feeling i will die tonight here is scumreads, in order from scummiest to least scummy(but still scummy) varpulis, sinani, sandroba, originalname, ace(though his posting is getting better), bumatlarge. Don't resurrect varpulis or sinani plz coroner varp. On September 04 2011 05:20 redFF wrote: btw if it isnt obvious i kinda took a step back today because my 2 scummiest reads were both town lol. Amazing how these things work out. | ||
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On September 06 2011 09:25 jcarlsoniv wrote: Assuming mafia had 3 members to start with, then Mafia kp was 2. 3 people died that night. That is mafia kp + minion shot. sinani was lynched. If sinani was scum, then this would have reduced mafia kp to 1 before the mafia kills went out. Sinani is town. I showed you. I outlined it for you. What happens if there is 4 Scum | ||
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On September 06 2011 09:54 sandroba wrote: I have no hard proof all I have is behaviour and logic. Mafia is indeed a game of assumptions and that's how you work out the most reasonable explanation. The hard facts I have is that kp was 2 + minion day1 and 1 day2, plus the fact that I've been roleblocked twice while voting bumatlarge when otherwise he would be lynched. Now the number of mafia players present is an important expeculation. I've given many reasons already why a number of mafia greater than 3 would be imbalanced and in one of your posts you agree with my logic. It also can't be lower than 3 due to balance and kp from day1. That being said that does indeed confirm varpulis and sinani as town. One thing I find funny is that you jump all over redFF's claim, but you say nothing about bum's. That is contradictory to your own personal logic. Look at bum's claim. If he was town and indeed had that role how would you use that? You would try to fucking confirm townies by checking lists that had one vote looking for pious. That would be the most obvious thing to do and probably imbalanced as it would 100% confirm a player to bum in that case. Yet you never bothered to look into his claim nor at his behaviour. I wonder why. Another example of contradictory behaviour: Why? How come? Don't you find it slightly intriguing that there is a medic on a setup that people can ressurect? Jackal is suddenly legit to you based on nothing, but somehow you think when other players use reasoning to deduce if a claim is likely or not to be legit than they are "jumping to conclusions". Nice double standards right there. Your rules only apply to others, but not to you when you are pushing your objectives. I believe bum's claim because it is more plausible than redFF's claim. If you were roleblocked I'll think of other possible scenario's but right now I'm very interested in why sinani and redFF's claims dont match up well. redFF messed his claim - you had to have noticed this. Why is bum's claim not good but redFF's legit? I believe Jackal's claim because of the role I have. I'm just waiting to die so I can rape face. | ||
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Really what this comes down to is: Is redFF really THAT bad of a player that he did not read the OP and think about the overall strategy of the game? I don't usually let people go away with that excuse. @jcarlsoniv: Show me the exact scenario again and order of events. With quotes and everything that proves this. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:24 sandroba wrote: Also Ace, when I first started playing and I was seeking advice from you on the behaviour of a player that kept mentioning previous games and what a great scumhunter he was, you told me I was right to be suspicious and that those games had no relevance to the current one. Turned out he was scum. Now you are doing the same thing here, saying you are great and have the most experience, yet this game you have done nothing to find scum or "break" the setup in favor of town. All those other games you played in which you were townie I'm sure you did great. Yet this game all you've done is abitrarily nit-pick on a claim from a COMPLETELY NEW AND MADE UP SETUP that you have no previous knowledge of. You claim it to be absurd, yet you say I'm the one jumping into conclusions. You completely disregard behaviour and other issues and you only push your agenda when convinient. You are not analysing each scenario and pondering everything, you are distorting the information to meet your ultimate goal. You are scum =) Why do you keep doing this. You chastise me for not posting, and now that I'm posting it's "I'm not scumhunting". You can't have it both ways. If you haven't noticed the rules don't apply to me. I'm better than everyone else. Good luck though. When are you going to acknowledge that no one can Counter Claim Coroner in this set up though - whats taking you so long? Surely you are smart enough to have figured this out on Day 1 right? I like how you say I'm disregarding behaviour when that is exactly what this is all about: redFF's behavior with his claim. Read my posts and stop being bitter that you aren't as good as I am. | ||
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you seem like a huge advocate for balanced games and get really pissed when set ups venture off the norm. So I'm going to put a little bit of faith in you and ask you: How often do you see no-flip games with 15 people have more than 3 scum? Because sandroba's explanation (which makes sense to me) seems to suggest otherwise. I only get pissed when setups venture off the norm without trying to balance both sides. Which happens a lot because most hosts dont do What If scenarios. But whatever. No flip games with 15 people having more than 3 Scum: A.) 15 player Normals often dont have more than 3 Scum anyway. B.) Reading through the OP there is a possibility for more than 3 Scum because of revival roles for the Town. If the Coroner can confirm players as pro-town then even being revived for 1 Day is a major advantage for the Town. It's essentially a temporary Tree Stump. That being said having more than 3 Scum so that the Town doesn't run wild is likely. C.) redFF, sinani, myself, bumatlarge, jackal - all claimed roles. I know I'm town, and even assuming sinani and redFF are Town, bum being Scum, and Jackal being Town then there has to be some kind of revival role left out there. 2 Coroners, my game ending role, Jackal's alleged role: Thats a lot of power on the Town side. Either the Mafia would have 3 players with brutal roles or more than 3. If we accept that the inhibitor was 1 of them then that leaves 2 Mafia power roles. They'd pretty much have to have the necromancer or some revival roles or else as I said above - this game would end quickly. Which means the last power role has to be something awesome if there are 3 Mafia. A 1 shot sure-fire kill is great, but doesn't scream monstrous to me. I'm not buying the there has to be 3 Mafia argument yet. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:35 Jackal58 wrote: Avenging Angel Ace? Only other kind of Angel I can think of. no, but lets just say when I die it will be the last chance for you guys to get your shit straight. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:32 jcarlsoniv wrote: I'm more than happy to, but I'm not sure why what I just said wasn't enough. What do you not understand about my deductive reasoning? Where am I missing something. Show me the hole, and I'll be glad to look for a way to patch it up. Is the Mafia kill compulsive? Likewise is the roleblock compulsive? I really may have missed something small thats why I'm asking. Just a list of "ok this is what happened each day that is mod-confirmed" could go a long way to clearing this up. Someone still has to explain redFF's behavior during his claim though. I refuse to believe he is that bad. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:40 wherebugsgo wrote: If you have such a kickass role that activates when you die, why the fuck are you so scared of getting lynched? Really? Show me where I have been scared of getting lynched. Come on read the thread - have I REALLY been trying hard not to get lynched? lol what a scrub | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:41 bumatlarge wrote: Wow this is the first I've heard of this. Mind sharing Ace? I actually typed it out, but I restrained just in case there really is some Mafia role out there that can do something insane. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:44 bumatlarge wrote: Ace you can't convince sandroba because I guarentee you he is scum this game. He will just keep using his roleblocked excuse to incriminate me, and then because ON agrees with me, well then ON is mafia too. Mafia has no roleblocker, they could not save redff. You just have to push that that is not the sace because you are scum. 4 scum and no blocker would not surprise me in the slightest. Yea I already figured him out. I'm just doing this for kicks. You'd think someone would revive Varpulis right now or at least push for it heavily. Oh well. On September 06 2011 10:46 sandroba wrote: How can no one counter claim coroner? Thats positive ev for town always, as you can simply lynch both claims. What? positive ev for the Town? Do you want a shovel? It's a NO FLIP GAME. Repeat that. NO FLIP. If you lynch both claimers the Town loses the only known investigation role they have of flipping people. All trails by association are DEAD. All trails by voting analysis are DEAD. The Town figures stuff out by alignment flips. Lose 1 scum, the Town loses all alignment flips. The Game is over unless the Town has some super face raping roles. The Coroner, who should be smart, would see this and not Counter Claim. "My word against his" in a no flip game is pretty stupid behavior when you're the guy that gets flips. The expected value is always negative for the Town - it leads to a loss unless some really epic shit happens to help them. Keep up chap, you're supposedly smarter than this. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:52 sandroba wrote: In a setup with double lynch and 4 mafia they are guaranteed to lynch a townie and keep 2 kp the whole game if town double mislynches day1, thus making it impossible for town to win. I think I've proven that already? Yeah, I have. They can have the 2 KP. The Town has a Coroner and revival roles. Every time a Townie revives he is effectively a Tree Stump so the game isn't impossible for the Town to win. GG thanks for playing. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:53 bumatlarge wrote: Also, would double high priests break the set-up? I'm thinking it's completely plausible with what we are seeing so far, since we haven't seen an unlynchable claim or shoot, and there is only one coroner. Losing an HP would really rough up town, and the likelihood of them overlapping is huge. I've been thinking about this too, and it also irks me. If we have a Coroner and a backup Coroner then we might also have 2 priests. I don't see why iGrok would give us 2 Coroners when losing the priest is just as bad for the Town if this holds. The thing about revival is that once a dead player comes back to life, he has every incentive to claim knowing he will die again. But no one seems to realize this, or is purposely not mentioning this. Reviving Varpulis is actually the best move the Town can make right now. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:55 wherebugsgo wrote: This right here should prove that Ace has no desire to be helping town, because he hasn't read the thread. one can revive Varpulis now because he's been dead for more than 48 hours. NOOB. How are you so sure? (be careful, this is a trick question) Why wasn't he revived the day after he died? Oh right, because someone claimed Coroner. Lulz. Scrub. | ||
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On September 06 2011 10:57 sandroba wrote: Really simple: Look at Ace's behaviour and activity day 1 and 2 when he was not up for a lynch. His first big post of the game was when ON and bum (his scum buddies) were up for lynching. Now that he is up for a lynch holy shit HUGE spike in activity and arguing his little heart out. How come you were so uninterested in the game before ace? If you are town (lol) and have this game ending ability you can go ahead and kill me with it (or do w/e you will make up later when things look dire). I'm posting more because I actually have time. Nice try though. My "huge spike in activity" doesn't imply anything about my alignment. The fact that I'm actually trying to die pretty much cements that. derp derp. On September 06 2011 10:58 sandroba wrote: They get to KEEP 2 kp no matter what. Prove I'm wrong. I said you can keep the 2 KP. Your scenario breaks because revived Townies always have incentive to claim. derp derp. | ||
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On September 06 2011 11:02 wherebugsgo wrote: Let me REPEAT, since Ace is too noob to be able to read the OP: On September 06 2011 11:03 Jackal58 wrote: Varpulis has decomposed I believe. No res for him. Read the updated player list Ace. Then read the last daypost if you don't believe that. On September 06 2011 11:01 sandroba wrote: Go read the OP ace. Also I'm tired of arguing with scum. While fun, it's kinda pointless. I was actually hoping you quoted the OP. Perfect. Remember when I said it was a trick question? Coroner Can look at a corpse and determine alignment and role. May be used any time, and will instantly return the information (as soon as I get the pm). Why doesn't this apply to redFF's and sinani's claims? | ||
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He's also seen the various discussions between myself and Incognito on what constitutes bad Town play. I don't think he's that blind. | ||
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On September 06 2011 11:09 sandroba wrote: So what? Mafia being 4 they actually get to use one of the lynches as kp too. Prove that town can win assuming double mislynch day1 and 4 mafia (with at least 1 necro 1 rb 1 minion). You keep assuming the lynch always hits Town. If it hits 1 Scum then your entire plan falls to pieces as thats 1 more Town alive. You can't just count lynches as Mafia KP because lynches aren't controlled by Scum. Are we going to start counting 3rd party KP as Mafia KP also because it can possibly hit the Town? derp derp | ||
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On September 06 2011 11:15 wherebugsgo wrote: Wtf does this have to do with reviving Varpulis? Varpulis can't be revived because he's been dead for 48 hours. So what's your explanation for saying that his revival should be a big topic today? sigh. Ok maybe this will help. Let me try and break this down again. According to the OP Varpulis can't be revived. Correct? Right. According to the OP the Coroner role can check A corpse per day. That means one. redFF checked two. See where I'm coming from now? | ||
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The coroner role may have some extra ability attached. Fine. But do we really believe that ability is "revive 2 players today" when the OP explicitly states something else and redFF messed up the claim! Do you get it now? | ||
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On September 06 2011 11:25 jcarlsoniv wrote: I have an idea. It may already be too late, but it's worth doing probably. @Jackal, to make sure sandroba doesn't get RBd again, you could protect him. What would it do for your argument (purely curious) if I were to hypothetically claim HP, and there was another HP claim also? Are you just using it to reinforce your case that there could be 4 scum? partially yes. Lets look at this another way because obviously basing it on whats stated in the OP isn't getting through to some people. Varpulis can not be resurrected. redFF checked the body. Said he Varpulis was Town. Why hasn't he given us Varpulis's role yet? | ||
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On September 06 2011 11:25 Jackal58 wrote: Coroner Can look at a corpse and determine alignment and role. May be used any time, and will instantly return the information (as soon as I get the pm). It means Coroner gets role and alignment back as soon as iGrok receives the request. Wtf does this have to do with ressing Varpulis? I was making a case that Varp not being able to come back to life based on the OP is true. So we should also look at the Coroner role in the OP and hold it as true. For some reason people keep taking "incomplete" to mean that whats stated in the role OP means it can change in the game. That wouldn't make sense because then the iGrok would be lying to us, or redFF really is that bad and messed up his claim. | ||
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On September 06 2011 11:28 jcarlsoniv wrote: It does not say "one per day". what does "look at a corpse" mean? One. A Corpse. Not "a corpse, but 2 if my balls are tingly". Detective: You can investigate a player once per day and get their alignment. Are you honestly confused and think that this means the detective can possibly investigate TWO players? If I give you a hamburger, how many are you holding in your hand? | ||
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On September 06 2011 11:29 jcarlsoniv wrote: I interpreted that as him being green. Assuming I'm not the pious, which it was shown that I'm not, varp could very well have been the pious. I would assume there's more than only 1 or even 2 greens. Sure, you can interpret it that way. But redFF never voluntarily gave us that information. Why would someone who felt it was the right time to claim Coroner, knowing very well he could die, not give us that information also. Don't you think thats a bit odd? You investigate 2 players, they both flip Town. Whether they are revived by Scum or Town it does not matter as this is now 2 Town players back in the game with voting power. Put yourself in the shoes of a backup role that can do this, and you claim knowing that Mafia have the ability to kill you. Why wouldn't you just out all of that information? You see where I'm going with this? | ||
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On September 06 2011 11:32 wherebugsgo wrote: The detective role says ONCE PER DAY The coroner role DOES NOT. Jesus I am a Coroner. redFF was my Apprentice. When I was lynched Day 1, I had not used either of my checks (note: the role pm did not say there was a limit to checks per day) So redFF got them both when I died. He only used one, on Varpulis, but he said that he used one on me, too. But the thing is he knew that I was Coroner since he was my apprentice and decided to check someone else. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. Which would mean redFF lied and something isn't adding up here. Sinani started with 2 checks. He could use both in one day. He dies without using any checks. redFF used one on Varp, and then lied and said he used one on Sinani because he knew Sinani was the Coroner anyway. He said he lost both of his checks at this point. Sinani is revived, and uses his check on ON and finds him to be Scum. Ok lets assume all this is true. There is a major snag. Earlier I pointed out that a backup role can not know the name of the player who has the original role. That is just too broken for the Town to have. Even so, lets assume this shit actually went down. Again - pay attention. Sinani said that redFF knew he was the Coroner but lied about using the check. Why oh why does Sinani have information about redFF's role? WHY? Think about it. The Coroner knows his back up. Sinani knows redFF is his back up. The back up knows the Coroner. redFF knows Sinani is the coroner. Hence, they both know that the other is Town aligned!. Perfect. So the Coroner has 2 checks per day. Ace misread the OP. Sinani and redFF both knew about each other's roles at the start of the game and both knew the other was Inncocent. On September 01 2011 23:08 redFF wrote: this is not a good reason to fos and actually makes little to no sense. current scumteam imo=varpulis, sinani, ace if i had to name it right now. i have ON as town, going out see ya guys later. On September 02 2011 14:48 redFF wrote: LOL. im sorry but that is the worst post in the game so far. this guy and varp are the lynches. On September 03 2011 00:12 redFF wrote: ace please start posting properly. sinani is looking scummy as hell atm i agree, nice chainsaw of his buddy varpulis :D On September 03 2011 06:56 redFF wrote: kk since i have a feeling i will die tonight here is scumreads, in order from scummiest to least scummy(but still scummy) varpulis, sinani, sandroba, originalname, ace(though his posting is getting better), bumatlarge. Don't resurrect varpulis or sinani plz coroner varp. So why did they call each other Scum, push cases against one another, Sinani voted for redFF, and redFF called Sinani one of his top Scum reads. 2 players that knew from the get-go that they were both Innocent and they did this. There's your behavior analysis sandroba. Now bow down to the throne. Fucking rape. | ||
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On September 06 2011 12:16 jcarlsoniv wrote: Scenario: Sinani knows he has an apprentice, but doesn't know who it is. redFF knows he is an apprentice, but doesn't know who the original is. Once the Day 1 lynches go out, redFF finds out that his master has died. He checks varp (maybe by sheer luck, or he's told that sinani was his master via PM) and finds he wasn't the coroner. By keeping up with the thread, sinani now knows that redFF was his apprentice. This would explain why redFF would push for the lynch on sinani, and then after redFF claimed apprentice, the stories line up. There's your scenario analysis Ace. Now bow down to the scrub, asshole. (Cuz, hey, if Ace is above the courtesy rules, then who's to say that everyone else isn't?) Fucking rape. On September 06 2011 12:07 sinani206 wrote: OK, Ace, you want the truth? Alright, here it is. My role PM said exactly what it says in the OP. It did not tell me who my apprentice is, or even that I had one. When I died, redFF comes and claims backup. I chose to believe him based on these facts.
redFF probably was told that he was the apprentice when I died, and obviously given my name. So that's why we weren't treating each other like confirmed townies the first day. Happy? Sinani just said he didn't even know he had an apprentice jcarl. Flush that crap, thanks. @Sinani: redFF was probably told that but he never said so. If he checks Varpulis and deduces you are the Coroner then why wouldn't he tell the Town Varpulis's role?. Varp can't be revived so holding that information in is now useless. His claim reeks. The second bolded - how would you know redFF was given your name? You just said redFF deduced you are the Coroner so why would he be given your name? You said it yourself - your role PM says exactly what it says in the OP. No where in it does it say anything about giving you extra information. @wherebugsgo: No, we are lynching me today because I really think this is the only shot at winning. I just dont trust most of you. | ||
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Sinani just stated his role PM is exactly like it says in the OP. Why is redFF getting extra information via PM from the moderator? So the Apprentice finds out who the master is and can get him revived? Not buying it. | ||
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On September 06 2011 12:28 wherebugsgo wrote: Vote for yourself, then. You're going in circles when your vote is on sandroba. You keep talking about sinani and redff when your vote is on someone else. If you think we can only win by you getting lynched, vote yourself. Help us lynch you. good idea, I thought I couldn't vote for myself but my eyes popped out when I re-read the PM. Best suggestion you've made yet. ## Vote Ace | ||
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On September 06 2011 12:29 jcarlsoniv wrote: So you know what that shows? Only the first sentence in my scenario was false. I was typing that as sinani answered I guess. My scenario would still hold up. They still wouldn't have known the others' identity day 1. Flush that crap, thanks. No genius. It means redFF also never knew he had a master. Sinani just said his role functions exactly like the OP. Where is redFF getting extra PMs from? You dont think it's kind of ridiculous that redFF gets his master's identity, a check on a corpse all with the possibility of Sinani being revived? | ||
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But it's OK. I've got something that will clear this ALL up. | ||
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On September 06 2011 12:59 sandroba wrote: I think he is scum and his mysterious power is bullshit. I think he know he can't avoid the lynch and is voting himself because it doesn't matter or to try to confuse us later with an absurd claim. There is absolutely no reason to not have claimed w/e it is right now if he was indeed dead set on dieing. Maybe this would be look better if you know, I was actually fighting the lynch. Cheers! | ||
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On September 06 2011 13:13 wherebugsgo wrote: Ace why exactly haven't you straight up role claimed yet? Not like you shat all over redFF and sinani for doing exactly what you're doing right now, you know... you'll see why | ||
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What was all of that about sandroba being role blocked confirming him as Town again? | ||
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Then when I started asking about Varpulis's role, things got sketchy. Maybe Scum thought I was the Coroner and got shook. Either way I'm holding some people to a higher standard here. I know there are a couple of jubjubs here so they'd believe anything. But some of you bought the role claim too quickly. There are a lot of holes in it and any self respecting decent Town player should have at least questioned how redFF's role got the PM from the mod confirming Sinani as Coroner, when Sinani said his role functions exactly as stated in the OP. Surely SOMEBODY had to note the big hole here? If this is true maybe the game is just hella Town favored and Mafia have no shot at winning anyway. Oh well. | ||
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Scum wouldn't reanimate him anyway since he'd be a zombie and die 3 days later. So they get the High Priest to rez Sinani and go a long their merry way. Necro rez on someone else. Varpulis and ON could both be Town. Mafia KP dropped because redFF got lynched. Sinani of course claims to have checked ON and flipped Inhibitor. Inhibitor, the role that allegedly blocked sandroba twice, even though I think most mods by now dont allow that to happen. So now the role blocking power is gone. sandroba's alibi lives, Sinani lives via ON being "confirmed" Scum. Why didn't this scenario play out for any of you? When I pull my little stunt, if ON is Scum the Necromancer has to revive him. There is no way they'd leave their inhibitor dead. If ON is not revived you should seriously question what happened with that Day 2 lynch. | ||
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On September 07 2011 04:15 jcarlsoniv wrote: I'm going to be leaving for practice very very shortly. I should be back about an hour before day ends. If you want my vote switched off of Ace, I need to be told and given good reason. I want to hear from Ace. If you really want to be lynched and use your "zomg game ending power", then my vote won't move. keep the vote on me. | ||
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On September 07 2011 04:18 sandroba wrote: bum is mafia, the other mafia is open for discussion. There is no 4th mafia ffs. iGrok basically edited his post after he read what I said. Do you really think he forgot for a second he put Jackal's role in the game? Also why did the minion shoot jackal and why did he get informed that he would ressurect the following day when the op states no player get's informed?? The OP didn't state all that stuff about redFF getting information about Sinani being his master. So jackal's claim is just as legit. Stop it. | ||
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Seems standard and believable to me. | ||
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I still can't believe redFF role claimed that badly. Sorry Sinani but I wasn't buying that the Town got that many OP roles. | ||
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On September 09 2011 09:39 redFF wrote: Meh I don't think my claim was that bad considering it helped find 2 of the mafia on the shitty wagon on me. Ace I understand what you were doing, but your reads were way off though this game  Yes because between you and sinani there was just too much "too good to be true" about the way your roles worked - why wouldn't I read into that as something fishy? Remember Sinani claimed that you got PM that told you he is the coroner, while you claimed to not have checked Sinani. Now why would I think this is true when that would be just too broken for the Town to have. Add in your shoddy role claim and not revealing Varp's role (the biggest problem with your RC) and I was suspect from the start. | ||
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I was laughing at WBG all the time cuz I was like "please, continue this. I need to die'. Then WBG was like "wait, lets not lynch Ace" and I was like noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! | ||
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