|
Man, it took me two hours to read through the thread again, and I was going to yell, but don't worry I wont. Just for the love of everything good and pure, PLEASE STOP SPAMMING. Right now, we have a terrible and confusing town atmosphere, that isn't actually conducive to winning the game or catching scum. So:
- Stop spamming
- Stop having stupid argumentative back and forths if you're just going to repeat yourselves.
- Stop bringing up the same things that have already been talked about, unless you actually have a good reason to do so, and aren't just repeating what's already been said.
- Consolidate your posts.
Right now, people are finally talking somewhat about who they want the mayor to be, but they're also disregarding that we have two open slots to fill. I have a town read on WBG, and I'd like to see him in one of the slots, so that's where my vote's going for now. It's possible I change it later, though, but people (including myself) really need to start voting.
##Vote: WBG
I'm still trying to sift through the BC/Incog/Foolishness chaos, and I'll let you know about my thoughts on that later, depending on how I actually form them.
Right now, it seems like GGQ is scum, and I'm also getting scum-vibes from Kingjames.
|
On January 15 2012 06:45 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 06:31 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Man, it took me two hours to read through the thread again, and I was going to yell, but don't worry I wont. Just for the love of everything good and pure, PLEASE STOP SPAMMING. Right now, we have a terrible and confusing town atmosphere, that isn't actually conducive to winning the game or catching scum. So: - Stop spamming
- Stop having stupid argumentative back and forths if you're just going to repeat yourselves.
- Stop bringing up the same things that have already been talked about, unless you actually have a good reason to do so, and aren't just repeating what's already been said.
- Consolidate your posts.
Right now, people are finally talking somewhat about who they want the mayor to be, but they're also disregarding that we have two open slots to fill. I have a town read on WBG, and I'd like to see him in one of the slots, so that's where my vote's going for now. It's possible I change it later, though, but people (including myself) really need to start voting. ##Vote: WBGI'm still trying to sift through the BC/Incog/Foolishness chaos, and I'll let you know about my thoughts on that later, depending on how I actually form them. Right now, it seems like GGQ is scum, and I'm also getting scum-vibes from Kingjames. Incog and I are causing chaos by being part of the few people who provided some analysis against other players? o.O
I never said you were causing chaos? Weird way to misinterpret that. BC managed to cause a lot of chaos directly with his claim and subsequent follow-up. For you and Incog though, the chaos more comes through everyone else spamming and screaming about things that makes it really hard to read when just going through the thread. So, I'm going to go back through all your filters, and try to figure out if I can make any firm decision on what I think of you. Right now it looks like a three way love triangle with a more convoluted plot than a soap opera, and I hope to be able to sort it out in my head after I'm done.
On January 15 2012 07:02 Jitsu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 06:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Holy shit could people stop blue claiming? If you are blue I don't care if you think you should claim. You shouldn't and if you do you're retarded.
Moving on, I am still running for mayor and I will not be withdrawing because aside from BC I do not like any of the current candidates. My lynch would be GGQ.
Foolishness in your last post you said you had done an analysis on someone. Please refresh my memory who this was.
Also wtf is up with the triple vote on WBG? That look suspicious as hell and I'm not going near that with a 10 foot pole. Wasn't WBG pretty anti-Palmar in anyway and wanted him dead? Than as Palmar starts posting, the votes for WBG blow up. 10 foot pole indeed.
Who said anything about making WBG the mayor, and thus being able to decide the lynch? I am surprised at how quickly other people came out of the woodwork to help vote for him, though.
|
Foolishness, explain your town read on BC.
|
Protact, why do you want to "save BC for later"? What happened to make you change your mind to lynch him, and instead lynch Macpo? It seems like you were very convinced as to BC's scumminess, so why would you hold off on lynching him? Does that mean that you're not as sure of your read anymore?
|
I agree with WBG with regards to the mayor candidates. I don't like any of them that much. BC spent all day arguing about masons, and not scum-hunting or pushing his reads, like he said he would in his opening post. In fact, I'm not even sure who he wants to lynch at this point. I like Incog better than BC, because he's actually been following through on the things he's saying, but he switched off of BC to that other guy, and hasn't explained why, yet.
That leaves BM? -_-
|
Also, just on a general note, L is flying way under the radar right now.
|
On January 15 2012 18:15 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
No discussion :/
Yo, VE, Protractinium, Adam4167, Kitaman27, MrWiggles and EchelonTee
What are your thoughts on:
Palmars lynch/WBG, is WBG scummy?
Palmars lynch/BC choosing him, did you agree with this?
BM/BC being the elected pair?
Who would you look into lynching next and why?
Double Lynch tomorrow?
Other people are encouraged to answer this too.
My stances
WBG deserves scrutiny, but at worst is a null read to me
I feel like BC didn't really explain his choice of lynch in the lead up, and choosing Palmar feels random and underly discussed.
I'm relatively fine with the elections. Those were people I both wanted in.
On double lynching, I feel like earlier on would be better, if we use them well, we can shrink mafia KP faster. Of course, there is some risk, but we also gain more information on where people stand.
Next lynch. An election candidate for sure. Previously I had assumed MrWiggles and Kitaman were sleeping or something, but they really didn't seem to have much impact going into the elections.
I feel like they would be better options to lynch than VE or Risk.Nuke. I would still support lynching Sandroba.
I still don't think WBG is scummy, as of this moment. I don't see how him pushing for Palmar would make him scummy. I was somewhat null on Palmar, as while he was acting similarly to how he does as scum, there was something a little off about it, but I wasn't sure if it was because he was being apathetic as town, or trying to change his scum play slightly.
I don't like that BC didn't mention who he would actually pick for the lynch, before he picked them. He mentioned that he thought palmar was scummy in some of his posts, along with foolishness and incog, but he didn't actually tell us that that was who he was lynching until it was time for the lynch. So, we lost a lot of discussion about the lynch, which probably would have generated far more information than talking about masons. BC's choice is consistent with what he was saying in the thread, but the fact that he wasn't transparent about it bothers me.
I had a town read on BM, much more so than either protact or BC, so I'm fine with him in office; hopefully he puts reputation as being a decent scumhunter to use and uses the position to influence the town. I would rather have not had BC in office, but after protact decided to switch his lynch target and not explain why, I didn't really want him in there as much as I did, either.
I would look into GGQ or BB, but both of those are probably better suited for vigs to shoot. I'll decide who I want to lynch Day 2.
I think depending on the discussion and cases put forward on day 2, it might be worth using the double lynch. Still, this is variable and dependent on what happens on day 2. Otherwise, we should probably wait another day to use them, or at least until we actually have more than two strong targets for the lynch. Remember that double lynches are enacted the day after we vote for them.
Also, as a side note, I'm dissatisfied with all of BC/Foolishness/Protact right now. I've asked things of all of them (as have others), and for the most part have been ignored. That means they're either not reading the thread, or don't care about being transparent and appearing town-like.
|
Mr. Wiggles' Mason Circle Plan![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9mJtN.png) A Visual Representation
Hey, because people all decided to claim mason for some reason, what do we think about making a mason circle?
Let's say we have:
Mason A
Mason B
Mason C
Mason D
Mason E
Who I will refer to solely by letter from now on.
The circle would work like this:
A masons with B, B masons with C, C masons with D, D masons with E, and then E could either mason with A, or another player. This effectively creates a two way line of communication with all our masons. In other words, it creates a pseudo-mason circle.
This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. As well, this allows the same people to talk to each other day after day, simply by switching the order of the masoning. Additionally, this solves the problem of either ignoring masons, or worrying about mafia influence through talking to masons. With this plan, each mason should be passing on each message they receive, so all information will be disseminated in the chain, and it increases the likelihood of catching any scum mason who has claimed.
This plan relies chiefly, that all claimed masons will be active and diligent in passing on their PMs. If any mason is found to be active in thread, but not passing on their PMs, or having a sharp drop in activity and thus not allowing the circle to function, then we should consider them for a vig shot or lynch.
Next, there is the problem of a scum mason editing the messages he receives in order to sow confusion. First, we must agree that all masons will simply copy+paste any message they receive. Next, we have several options depending on what kind of circle we use.
If we have all masons mason each other, with no extra people, then we have a circle. So, each mason will simply pass his message along, with any additional text, in the same direction that his PM has been going. If he wants to respond directly to the person who PMed him, then he can send the PM in both directions. How this will work, is that everyone will always pass on each message they receive, until it reaches them again, at which time, they will compare the PM to their original and check for differences. (This program will help: http://www.sourcegear.com/diffmerge/ ) If they find any differences, then they will say so in the thread, and each mason will post their respective PM. Then, we search for the origin of the discrepancy. Scum will be hesitant to actually fake a discrepancy with their original PM, as it will essentially be trading one-for-one. Also, town has NO reason to doctor PMs they send out in the mason circle.
If we have all masons mason each other, but then add in an extra person to the circle, so that it's a line with two ends, we will have to use a different method to check for sinister editing. The first is that we post all PMs publicly in the thread. This reduces the effectiveness of the circle, but is the safest method for checking that all PMs were sent in their original form and remained intact. The other method, is for the two people at each end of the line to ask questions about certain PMs. It will be unlikely that both of them are scum, and if they are, they should only remain at the end of the line for one day. If they fake editing and we kill a couple of town masons, then we'll just cull the entire circle, as again, town has NO reason to doctor PMs they send out in the mason circle, so it must mean there are multiple mafia in the circle, or the extra people added to the circle were mafia. In this form of a line, each person will either send a PM in one direction if they don't add anything to it, or in both directions if the do. This again ensures that all players in the circle receive all PMs.
So, that's my plan for salvaging all the mason claims and creating a powerful tool for the town. We have two ways we can implement this. Either we go with a line, which is slightly more effective, as it allows an extra person into the circle, or we go with a circle, which is much safer. In my opinion, using the circle method is the better choice, for while the circle will be smaller, it lets us check much more easily for mafia influence, and the dissemination of information should proceed much more smoothly. This is open for discussion though.
What do people think?
|
On January 16 2012 07:43 supersoft wrote:
"This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. "
false assumption, plan is therefor useless. Sorry.
This plan makes masons completely useles...
(Moreover the execution - even if this makes sense - is nearly impossible)
How so? This is a mason circle that can talk to each other for longer than one day, as compared to random masons being able to talk to one player for one day, and never after that. Have you ever played in PM games, and do you know the effectiveness of a mason circle? The point is to bounce ideas off of each other, and create analysis. By talking continuously in PM, the masons should be able to get good reads on each other as well, thus strengthening the power of the circle once they root out any potential scum. Only dumb scum will actually be able to be caught by a town mason in this game by talking to them for one day (especially when they can just ignore the mason and use BC as an excuse), whereas this plan allows us to create a town circle to create analysis.
Right now, your post is completely worthless, as it provides zero reasoning for anything you said. Try harder.
|
On January 16 2012 07:55 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 07:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On January 16 2012 07:43 supersoft wrote:
"This will allow our claimed masons to talk to each other, as a group, thus increasing their effectiveness. "
false assumption, plan is therefor useless. Sorry.
This plan makes masons completely useles...
(Moreover the execution - even if this makes sense - is nearly impossible)
How so? This is a mason circle that can talk to each other for longer than one day, as compared to random masons being able to talk to one player for one day, and never after that. Have you ever played in PM games, and do you know the effectiveness of a mason circle? The point is to bounce ideas off of each other, and create analysis. By talking continuously in PM, the masons should be able to get good reads on each other as well, thus strengthening the power of the circle once they root out any potential scum. Only dumb scum will actually be able to be caught by a town mason in this game by talking to them for one day (especially when they can just ignore the mason and use BC as an excuse), whereas this plan allows us to create a town circle to create analysis. Right now, your post is completely worthless, as it provides zero reasoning for anything you said. Try harder. pff your plan won't happen. I don't have to try harder. What the hell are you thinking? Do you think it's effective if BC discusses his reads with jitsu?
And if ~OpZ~ discusses with BC, or BC with ~OpZ~ or one of those with Sandoba (someone said he claimed?)? If BC discusses with Jitsu for example, then he should be able to determine if he is town or scum after a while, if BC is town. That then gives him an outlet to share sensitive information, that he doesn't necessarily want to post in thread, but would like to be published if he dies, such as the names of his BGs or his scum reads, or allows him to determine one of the members of the mafia. A town circle is one of the most powerful tools in the game. It's one of the most dangerous things for mafia, because it allows town to discuss and form analysis free from the influence of mafia, and it creates an information disadvantage for the mafia, as compared to the town. Scum no longer have perfect information, and they don't see everything that's happening. This relies on the effort of the town masons, however, to actually put the effort into the game to make this work. If they're not willing to, though, then I'm not even sure why they're playing.
What useful thing do you think that BC will do with his mason power otherwise? He himself has said that he would rather that masons either don't use their powers, or that everyone else just ignores PMs. How is that useful for the town?
So yes, you do have to try harder, because your reasons are bad, and you still haven't explained them. Good job dodging me.
Other benefits of the plan:
This also serves to confirm that all claimed masons really are masons, as they will be forced to mason with another mason, and pass along PMs. The only way this won't happen, is if two or more of the claimed masons are scum, but then there should be a breakdown somewhere, as masoning positions are changed each day, and I'm fine trading two masons for two scum, or whatever it would turn out to be.
It creates a target rich pool for medics. Mafia don't want a town circle to be established, so they will either be forced to shoot into the pool of masons, or allow one to form. If we threaten medic protection into the circle, then we can WIFOM the mafia to death.
Edit before posting:
On January 16 2012 08:13 Nisani201 wrote:
What is the point of a mason circle? No one in it would be confirmed, so it seems anti town for a certain group of people to be passing around messages while everyone else is left in the dark.
What is there to talk about anyways?
What do you mean what is there to talk about? It creates an environment where it is very easy to analyze and plan against the mafia. No players in the circle are initially confirmed, but after talking to each other for any length of time, they should be able to get a read on each other. Anyone not putting the proper effort into the circle, or trying to stop it's working from within can be fingered as scum. There's no reason for a town mason in the circle to try to hurt the circle.
One of the arguments against the masons in this game that I saw, is that they can only talk to someone for one day, so that makes them much weaker than normal, and that they cannot actually create circles, which neuters their ability. This plan circumvents both of those weaknesses.
|
On January 16 2012 08:36 Nisani201 wrote:
The problem is that it's not a town circle. Once a single mafia gets in the circle, it becomes anti-town, because the entire mafia will have information that certain townies will not.
That doesn't matter. It does not become anti-town if a mafia enters the circle. The masons shouldn't trust each other to begin with, but it will very hard for any mafia to actually keep up a facade of being pro-town and contributory for long. This means the other masons in the circle will be able to sniff out and reveal any scum among them. This also forces all claimed masons to actually play the game and contribute, as they will be forced to perform in the mason circle.
Have you ever played in a game with PMs or a mason circle?
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Neighbor
Read that.
|
On January 16 2012 08:47 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 08:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On January 16 2012 08:36 Nisani201 wrote:
The problem is that it's not a town circle. Once a single mafia gets in the circle, it becomes anti-town, because the entire mafia will have information that certain townies will not. That doesn't matter. It does not become anti-town if a mafia enters the circle. The masons shouldn't trust each other to begin with, but it will very hard for any mafia to actually keep up a facade of being pro-town and contributory for long. This means the other masons in the circle will be able to sniff out and reveal any scum among them. This also forces all claimed masons to actually play the game and contribute, as they will be forced to perform in the mason circle. Have you ever played in a game with PMs or a mason circle? http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=NeighborRead that. it does if it's someone like BC or L. If I were scum in this game I would love your plan. I would infiltrate the fuck out of that circle and seed whatever bs I could come up with.
The thing is, we know who's in the circle, and so do scum. If the masons don't start dying and there's no missing shots after a while, then that means there's a strong probability that there's scum in the circle, and a strong player at that, like BC or ~OpZ~, as mafia don't want to leave a circle of townies alive and talking to each other. BC is a good scum hunter, so he should be able to find any scum in the circle if he is town, or at least know that he can't trust them. If he doesn't produce any scum from the circle, calls them all town, and then none of the masons ever die while spreading bullshit in the thread, then what's the logical conclusion? This means that a scum BC can't use his PMs secretly to sow confusion. If he's scum, it contains his influence in PMs to the mason circle, and we know where that influence lies. Also, if you're worried about BC being scum and influencing the circle, then why do you say you think he's town, and why did you vote him in for mayor? Did your read change?
Also, the only way for mafia to infiltrate the circle now, is to publicly claim mason. Mafia have already chosen their masons, so this also fucks over any plan they might have made to use them, as they either need to claim, which draws scrutiny to themselves, to infiltrate the circle, or they need to just sit back and hope they already have someone in the circle, or just hope the circle doesn't accomplish anything major, which they can't really do, with strong players in the circle.
|
KJ, what do you propose the claimed masons do then? I don't see them being very effective right now, and how does not forming a circle stop mafia from injecting chaos into the thread, or gaining additional information? Instead, they'll just use their masons in a coordinated fashion to target as many different players as they can, while our masons will flounder due to all the confusion and chaos surrounding the role stemming from the day 1 discussion.
There is no difference between my plan, and a normal PM game or game with a mason circle in it, besides that the masons have to pass on communications. Would you not support masons in a circle discussing in another game where they started in a circle, because there might be scum in it? In fact, if there's a scum in the circle, all the better, because the town members should be able to sniff them out and get them lynched.
|
If he's giving up BG names, he should do right at the deadline, not after. That way if scum subbed in both and shot BM+BC (they're town in this scenario), we'll have the names and can lynch them.
Also, BC should clarify if masons can continue to talk to their target during the night. No one has told us if they can, yet.
|
Masons can only talk to someone for 1 cycle when they mason them, and never again. So, they can't harass someone for three days straight, like you want them to. The longest they can try to get information out of someone is one cycle, which is barely long at all. Making a circle lets them talk to the same people for multiple days, though.
|
Protact, do you still hold a red read on BC? You posted two rather large cases against him yesterday, but he isn't mentioned in your most recent post (while macpo is). Does that mean you don't consider him as likely to be mafia any longer?
|
|
|
Can someone from the scum team explain why I was shot? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
