On July 04 2011 18:47 iGrok wrote:
Thanks Ace for that writeup. Its much more fleshed out than mine.

This game was going to be somewhat difficult for Mafia, I knew that from the start. This game went through over a dozen different setups while it was in queue, including a 9 vigilante last-man-standing closed setup - maybe Paranoid Mafia was just destined to be a bastard game from the start. When the time came though, I thought I had a reasonably balanced setup. A simple and stupid mistake completely fucked up this game, and I didn't even catch it until the fucking postgame chat with Qatol.

I'm not going to really go into why it turned out the way it did unless I'm asked specific questions - this is the probably going to be the low point of my mafia experience. Don't judge me too harshly, I'll come back with more fun setups like Sleeper Cell and mine & GMarshal's Resurrection Mafia.

If you want to keep everything almost the same you can make the Vigilante suicidal: If he shoots Town aligned players he commits suicide.

This way he can't ever claim unless investigated the Night before. If he calls his shot for the next Night and Mafia knows he will hit Town, they just shoot a different Townsperson and now thats 4 dead town players by Day 2. 3 Town vs 2 Mafia to start the day. If the Town lynched someone on Day 1 then it's 2 vs 2 and the game is over as Mafia wins.

If you want to have the Mafia help a bit more as in assuming the Town gets it right and does hit a Scum on Night 1, then you can also hide the count of Sane/Paranoid Detectives. This will make it much harder for the Town to win even though they still have an advantage.

The first suggestion is far more brutal though as that one pretty much means the town can't blatantly be public about what they are doing with the Scum being powerless to stop it.

Fishball

Canada4788 Posts

July 04 2011 14:03 GMT

#202

On July 04 2011 17:01 Ace wrote:
that should read *not abusing what was given to them.

@Rol: Fishball can't claim Vigilante. None of the mafia can as thats also an auto loss like you said. The only play the Mafia has is: 1 claim Town, 1 claim Detective. Then the Detective faking Mafia has to keep giving "Guilty" results and I'll explain why about that in a second also. The Framer isn't even worth worrying about as within 2 Nights the Detectives and Vigilante can make him irrelevant.

This is what iGrok said to me after I died when I was screwing with him in PM-land until he got mad. Here is the main part.

Optimal mafia play in your place, and if you wanted to keep your streak, was to counter-claim vigi and force the real one to use his shot on you tonight, while they lynch one of the DT. Thats the gamble, that they wouldn't have picked the right DT out of 4 to lynch, and you'd still have 2 votes to use on the lynch as well. If you then shot a Townie, that would leave 1 confirmed townie with no powers, 2 DTs (zero, one, or two of which are paranoid), a confirmed vigi without a shot, and a framer remaining alive. Since town has massclaimed, mafia knows which ones are paranoid and which aren't, but you can force a night of no-action by making the DTs check the confirmed peeps to ascertain their sanity, and if there are sane cops left frame so they think they are paranoid. This gives you another kill to use on one of the confirmed townies. Once again, its a gamble, and this time a little less in scum's favor, and after that night its a 3p game, 2 DT Framer or DT Framer Confirmed T.

So yeah, its challenging as hell. But its still possible, even reasonable so, and you volunteered to sub in man.

To which I replied, "lol".

When I finally had a grasp of the situation yesterday afternoon, I told Sandroba to concede. That's pretty much all I can say.

RebirthOfLeGenD

USA5860 Posts

July 04 2011 15:13 GMT

#203

lol yeah sorry fish, you were pretty screwed because I literally didn't even care if you were mafia, and just knew if you were the game was essentially over in that moment. The only way iGrok's scenario would have worked is with a roleblocker, there was literally nothing to prevent a mass claim, or allow the mafia to thwart a vigi claim, which tying the town up with roleblocks and shit could have done.

Pyo

United States738 Posts

July 04 2011 19:15 GMT

#204

I'm a little confused, but why wasn't this still a possibility during day 1:

deconduo - sane, killed night 0
sandroba - sane, checked a framed RoL - sees scum
supersoft - paranoid, checked Pyo - sees scum
sinani - lying, claims sane (saw the first two claims so knew it was safe to claim sane)
nard - paranoid, checked sandroba - sees scum

Obviously after night 1, depending on who RoL killed, and who the DTs checked/reported it could it could be determined that this was not the scenario, but how do we know this day 1?

Ace

United States16096 Posts

July 04 2011 19:51 GMT

#205

You aren't which is why I said by Night 1 you will. Also you have to take into account your own innocence. If supersoft investigated you and you know you're innocent that means he's Paranoid or you were framed and he can also be sane. If that happens:

nard has to be paranoid
sandroba also has to be paranoid. Assume sandroba is...

...meaning duo is sane
supersoft also has to be sane so you were framed
sinani claims sane and is lying because he knows Misder is innocent

At this point nard is confirmed Town, and now it just comes down to figuring out if sinani is telling the truth or sandroba/supersoft is lying by switching their investigations on Night 1 to someone you know will be Innocent.

Of course it didn't break down like this because once the Night 1 investigation flipped, if nard sees Innocent then you revise it and know for sure that either sandroba was framed or he's Scum. Now you do the same thing by replacing sinani with sandroba except now you have TWO nights of checks to work with.

The other problem is that for the Night 1 investigations the Scum have to hope the Town gives them the right pair of investigations. Unfortunately not only would nard have flipped Sane, but obviously sinani is also going to find Innocent unless you frame his target. sandroba at this point would have to give a guilty result, which of course is an issue with supersoft also getting a guilty on a confirmed Town. nard getting Innocent, sinani getting innocent, sandroba getting guilty, supersoft getting guilty.

sandroba and supersoft can't BOTH be paranoid. One has to be sane and the other paranoid if you assume sinani is Scum. Since this situation won't work then sinani has to be innocent. Therefore his claim of being a Sane detective is true. You also know that Misder likely couldn't have been framed. For that to happen:

ROL showed up guilty, so sandroba would have to be paranoid or Scum
nard investigated sandroba, so he'd also have to be paranoid or Scum
supersoft investigated you and got guilty, meaning he'd also have to be paranoid/Scum but you know you're Innocent

This means that the only way Misder could have been framed is if between the 3 of you, you all end up in the paranoid/scum lists. Which means duo would have to be sane and 2 of these 3 are Innocent DTs, which confirms sinani as Town. By framing Misder (assuming he was Mafia) the Scum would have inadvertently confirmed the only living Sane detective. Either path you go down at least one of the Detectives will be confirmed, and by Day 2 probably all 3.