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On July 04 2011 12:24 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 12:21 Pyo wrote:
Damn you RoL and your bad formatting which messed up my post's formatting...
The part that was actually me talking was the following:
4% chance is still greater than 0%. However, depending on how DT's check each other tonight, it could become game over. I mean, if I were mafia, I would still play it out and try to pull something clever out of my butt, so I'll encourage the remaining mafia to go for it.
For the sake of ending the game sooner, I would encourage the DT's to check in such a way that would best determine your sanity.
As for the vigi kill, I would recommend either nard or sinani since they were the second two to claim their checks. Mafia would have been foolish to claim right away without hearing some of the other claims or he'd risk outting himself right at the get go. I will do whatever I want. Quiet you! Also that is the most generic advice I have ever read.
You're not a DT, so I wasn't talking to you. And my advice wasn't as generic as you make it out to be. I meant that the DTs should go for determining their sanity rather than necessarily go for trying to find the remaining scum. In other words some of them should consider checking a confirmed townie rather than just simply "circle jerking" amongst other DTs.
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On July 04 2011 12:33 Pyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 12:24 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 04 2011 12:21 Pyo wrote:
Damn you RoL and your bad formatting which messed up my post's formatting...
The part that was actually me talking was the following:
4% chance is still greater than 0%. However, depending on how DT's check each other tonight, it could become game over. I mean, if I were mafia, I would still play it out and try to pull something clever out of my butt, so I'll encourage the remaining mafia to go for it.
For the sake of ending the game sooner, I would encourage the DT's to check in such a way that would best determine your sanity.
As for the vigi kill, I would recommend either nard or sinani since they were the second two to claim their checks. Mafia would have been foolish to claim right away without hearing some of the other claims or he'd risk outting himself right at the get go. I will do whatever I want. Quiet you! Also that is the most generic advice I have ever read. You're not a DT, so I wasn't talking to you. And my advice wasn't as generic as you make it out to be. I meant that the DTs should go for determining their sanity rather than necessarily go for trying to find the remaining scum. In other words some of them should consider checking a confirmed townie rather than just simply "circle jerking" amongst other DTs.
as far using your shot, just shoot whoever. Hell, you can shoot me to make the game more interesting if you want...
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rKfA9.jpg) Stroke of Midnight, N1
RebirthOfLeGenD got everyone up and into the main chamber of the bunker complex. Those who tried to resist quickly found themselves staring down the barrel of his Desert Eagle .50 Caliber Semi-Automatic Pistol, and quickly joined the group. "I have been through all of Fishball's belongings," said RoL, "And I have determined that there is one, and only one, accomplice to his actions!" RoL pulled Pyo and Misder out from the group. "The two of you are innocent beyond doubt. But as for the rest of you, we cannot be sure. So we will now kill you one-by-one. If you are not the killer, you will assist our actions!"
Finally, us VTs get the real power in a game for once thought Pyo.
"Now, where to begin? I guess you should draw straws."
"I'll go get some!", yelled Sandroba, and took off in the direction of his quarters, as supersoft, sinani206, and nard looked at the ground, their faces stony as they realized they could be forced to sacrifice themselves to save fellow Liquidians.
RoL followed Sandroba a short distance back, but when he got to the quarters Sandroba had chosen, he was staring into an enormous firey void, and within the voidstood Sandroba, his eyes literally ablaze as he whispered frenetically under his breath.
"Sandroba! I knew it!", cried RoL, but Sandroba simply smiled back and said, "You are too late, RoL! Prepare to be crushed by my Infernal Dairy Hordes!" And from the fiery gate to hell, countless Infernal Goats began to stream forth, surging toward RoL as the door slammed shut behind him. RoL sucked in his breath; things were going too fast! But he did still have his trusty Deagle! He took careful aim at Sandroba's head, and fired.
And missed.
But the roar of the Desert Eagle was incredible. So incredible, in fact, that it frightened the Infernal Hell-Goats, who begen stampeding back towards Sandroba, crushing him and trampling him to death. When the last goat had been scared back into the hellgate, it suddenly and abruptly vanished, leaving only a scorch mark in what now appeared to be a normal, if spartanly furnished, conference room.
RoL returned to the survivors and told them what had passed, showing them the scorch mark as proof. And they all lived in relative peace and comfort, eventually moving of the bunker and establishing contact with other groups of surviving Liquidians. Society was rebuilt, Liquidia flourished, and then the next Caller game happened. But that's a different story.
Sandroba, the Hellspawn Necromancer (Framer), is dead?
RebirthOfLeGenD, the Vigilante, is Out Of Ammunition.
Pyo, the helpful Vanilla Townie, is sad that townies did not get to flaunt their power.
iGrok, the Bastard Host, thanks everyone for playing this short game, and promises the next one will be much bigger and better, cause GMarshal and I are co-hosting ^^
Town Wins!
Feel free to discuss the setup or anything else.
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Well this was over quickly. My only contribution as co-host was writing the night 0 post, because none of you guys remembered to PM me your actions TT.
Don't let the next one be until after July 22nd, ok? I need to play in that one.
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lol gg
just like i said - i am a sane dt ^_^
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gg, well done RoL [*tips hat]
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GG, sorry for not being much of a challenge. My assumpstion was that people would change their vote due to the quick bandwagon on fishball. Unfortunatelly that's not how it turned out. I had to take a huge risk to have any possibility of winning this =P
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Oh, and thanks to sandroba for helping to write his death scene xD
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So I'm going to write up a post soon detailing why Sinani was obviously Sane Detective and confirmed innocent, and why you guys should be bashing your heads against the wall for saying ridiculous things like "Vigilante don't claim" even though he's a self-confirmed Innocent once he does. While Mafia's chance of winning was slim, the Town was just bad at abusing what was given to them.
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On July 04 2011 16:39 Ace wrote:
So I'm going to write up a post soon detailing why Sinani was obviously Sane Detective and confirmed innocent, and why you guys should be bashing your heads against the wall for saying ridiculous things like "Vigilante don't claim" even though he's a self-confirmed Innocent once he does. While Mafia's chance of winning was slim, the Town was just bad at abusing what was given to them.
I pretty much wrote all of this, which is why the mafia just conceded. Judging by player pool, I doubted the mafia were ballsy enough to fake a townie claim to gain traction, so the entire misder/sinani scum team thing was retarded. On top of which, while if Misder was red that situation could of been used to kill both mafia, inversely you could use it to confirm two townies in two separate player pools, which was more valuable and less risky since if you fail to prove misder being town by killing everyone else then you have that link to sinani.
I was going to claim regardless, I wasn't sure when I was going to do it, then when fishball subbed in I decided it would be a nice docile way to put him down while proceeding with my plan. To be honest, the only play fishball REALLY had was to claim vigilante, which would of kept him alive until the night cycle, but all that would do is allow me to get a free mafia kill on fishball, confirming rest of the greens while allowing us to fire our lynch into the blues instead, which actually created an even worse scenario for the mafia. To be honest, there really wasn't much fishball could have done. At the very least this game needed a role blocker.
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On July 04 2011 16:39 Ace wrote:
So I'm going to write up a post soon detailing why Sinani was obviously Sane Detective and confirmed innocent, and why you guys should be bashing your heads against the wall for saying ridiculous things like "Vigilante don't claim" even though he's a self-confirmed Innocent once he does. While Mafia's chance of winning was slim, the Town was just bad at abusing what was given to them.
Oh and to further expand on this. When you see 3 red checks and 1 green check and you know there was a 50/50 shot of being sane or paranoid, it is more likely the 1 claiming green is being honest, even if you assume the dead detective was sane.
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that should read *not abusing what was given to them.
@Rol: Fishball can't claim Vigilante. None of the mafia can as thats also an auto loss like you said. The only play the Mafia has is: 1 claim Town, 1 claim Detective. Then the Detective faking Mafia has to keep giving "Guilty" results and I'll explain why about that in a second also. The Framer isn't even worth worrying about as within 2 Nights the Detectives and Vigilante can make him irrelevant.
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Yeah, I know. Fishball was honestly fucked and could literally do nothing, a vigi claim would of only saved him for that day, but possibly creating an even larger problem. His only chance might of been trying to lynch another green and allow me and him to resolve our issues with a vigi hit at night, but the town would have to be retarded to go along with a kill a green plan.
I am definitely interested in hearing about why the mafia detective can't ever claim someone is innocent, though, so I await that post. I would think it could work in a wifomish way in case he dies, or wants more sway with townies. That's about all I can think of to justify doing it.
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Ok so when I first signed up for the game I hadn't read the OP carefully enough. I'm not sure if I thought there were 3 mafia, a roleblocker, or what. Someway somehow I just wasn't paying enough attention to it.
When I came back a day or two before the game started and jotted down the role list I was thinking "there's no way Mafia are going to win most of the time". Usually when I'm looking at a setup to "break" one of the most important things to do is find out how fast the Town can confirm players. If that's the case it's almost going to be broken. If the Mafia have no way of killing confirmed Town fast enough then it's surely going to be broken. A little Mafia theory first.
The most fundamental thing about the game of Mafia is that in basic terms the Town's starting advantage is the sheer amount of numbers they have. However this is countered by their pitiful amount of initial information. Town usually loses the game when they can't find out enough information about each player fast enough. Conversely Mafia have low numbers but a huge information advantage just knowing each other. This allows them to punish mistakes by the Town if given enough time. If a game attempts to mess with this dynamic then something has to be compensated for one side or the other in an attempt to balance the teams.
In this game though the Town has not only the numbers, but even more information than the Mafia. While the Mafia starts off knowing who isn't Town, by Day 1 the Town knows who likely IS Town. This is a monstrous thing because well, when the uninformed majority becomes the informed majority shit goes bad for the smaller group.
How I figured out how to break the Game
First and foremost I'm not trying to be cocky or even make myself look super smart. I'm also not trying to rag on iGrok's hosting/balance abilities. This was interesting just because I wanted to see if the players in the game would realize what they had to work with. I wasn't the only one who quickly came to a conclusion on how to run wild in this, as my PM conversations with Qatol and Incongito showed. In fact I think with both of them we had some small differences in actions the Town could take (No Lynch vs Lynch) which funnily enough still ended up with the Town having a major advantage anyway.
Now onto the logic puzzle. As I explained earlier in the thread the Town should start the game off on Night 0 claiming. For purposes of supremely breaking the game I'm going to go with the most difficult route for the Mafia to beat because we're assuming everyone is playing up to their best. That being said the Vigilante could claim Night 0 and the Mafia would still lose. It's a mistake to believe that killing the Vigilante is going to help that much. It ONLY helps if he gets caught without claiming. Read and see why.
Night 0 either no one claims or everyone claims Vanilla Town. This is done to protect Detectives/Vigi if people really care that much. The OTHER route is to have all the Detectives claim and tell them who to investigate or let them random. There is absolutely NOTHING the Mafia can do about this. The Framer is irrelevant in this game and is just a small annoyance. By itself it can't do anything.
Once everyone claims the Mafia only has one strategy: 1 of them claim Detective, the other claims Vanilla Town. This is the only strategy because if they both claim the same thing there is a pool of auto-confirmed Town on the other side. Not the most ideal situation.
As soon as this happens on Day 1 the Vigilante claims. The town this game made the mistake of telling the Vigilante not to claim. Why would you? Once he claims the game is just going to end faster. You have a confirmed Town player that can not be counter claimed. If the Mafia even think of doing so the real Vigilante shoots him at night and once again, the game is almost over.
Once the Vigilante claims you have him decide what order the Detectives reveal. This is great since a pro-town source is picking the order. This means that the lying Scum DT can't wait till the end to fake his investigation. Of course, this also doesn't matter and I'll explain why when we get to the Detectives a bit later. Now that the Vigilante is out in the open and the Detectives revealed their results here is where the Town has a decision to make:
Lynch or No Lynch. The issue here is the Town either runs through the VT list asap by killing everyone or plays around with the idea of getting a better lynch Day 2. Imo if no one stands out as being Scummy just No Lynch. Your Vigilante is going to shoot tonight anyway. The good thing about if you do lynch and hit Scum on the first try the remaining Scum can't win unless some really bad stuff happens. Which it won't if the Town is playing with their heads on straight.
Whatever happens this is where the Framer becomes irrelevant. On Night 1, the Vigilante calls his shot. The Town split's their Detectives at this point: 1-3, depending on their results the previous Night check the Vigilante assuming they haven't. This is important as a confirmed Town player gets checked meaning the Framer can't do ANYTHING to him. Likewise the OTHER checks can go to the player the Vigilante is going to hit. Once this guy flips you'll know his alignment. The Framer can't touch either of them because on Day 3 the entire Town will know.
Within 2 Nights this is what the Town has assuming a No lynch and no dead Mafia:
1 confirmed pro-town player
2 sets of detective checks
2 pools of players with a few confirmed players
Even if the Mafia kill the Vigilante Night 1, the Detectives and remaining VTs will clean up the rest as the next Day they can mislynch dropping it to 5 town vs 2 Mafia. Even with a mislynch the previous day and 4 Town vs 2 Mafia the Town is still almost going to win with all the information available. "But Ace how is that possible? The Town won't know how to go about figuring DT sanities!"
Well actually, they can. Very easily at that. Look at how easy it was in this past game:
With deconduo dead the Town was left with 3 real detectives and 1 fake. Before even looking at that let's examine this little rule:
If the day rolls around and 3 Detectives say they found Innocents, one of them is surely lying.
There is no way this can happen unless BOTH of the Sane Detectives investigated the same person. If they didn't then someone is lying.
When sinani showed up as the only one with an Innocent verdict he was confirmed Innocent himself. How?
First assume deconduo is Paranoid:
His result gives you a guilty.
nard gives you a guilty
sandroba gives you a guilty
supersoft gives you a guilty
sinani gives you an innocent.
4 guilty results and 1 Innocent. Even If Misder (sinani's check) was/wasn't Framed, then it would mean that
A.) 2 of supersoft/nard/sandroba are Sane AND Sinani would be lying.
Sinani would be scum because he can't be Paranoid DT getting Innocent results. If this is the case then 2 of the 3 previous players found Scum for sure.
Except OOPS! - one of them (sandroba) checked RoL and got a Scum result. RoL claimed Vigilante so you know he's confirmed Town. This means that sandroba is either Scum, or Rol got framed and sandroba is Sane. If that's the case then it is possible that sandroba is Sane, sinani is Sane, nard is Paranoid, deconduo is Paranoid, and supersoft is lying Scum. But if RoL got Framed, then Misder didn't! So then sinani can't be scum along with sandroba. Only one of them can.
But looking at it with duo being sane: With so many guilty results that means that for sinani's check to be false deconduo has to be sane. Sinani getting innocent means he can't ever be paranoid. This means that 2 of the 3 remaining would have to be paranoid AND sinani would have to lying (again) and of coursewe go back to Misder being framed which would confirm the other 3 guys. This just doesn't add up because once again the problem becomes RoL can't be framed while Misder is with sandroba getting a guilty. He'd have to be a Paranoid detective but then how would nard get a guilty on him? Ok nard is Paranoid. But ok then how did supersoft get a guilty? Oh he's Paranoid too?
Basically what this comes down to is the fact that a Paranoid detective always gets a Guilty result. This is crucial because any Innocent result means you're Sane or lying. The Mafia can't fake an Innocent result because it's akin to faking the SANE detective. I know this is somewhat confusing but look at it like this:
If 3 people claim they found 3 innocent players then one has to be lying. Framer or not there is no way for there to ever be 3 innocent claims. Why? Because there are a maximum of 2 Sane detectives. They are the ONLY players that will see Innocent. Even a Paranoid Detective finding an Innocent, or a Framed Mafia turned Innocent sees Guilty.
If there are 2 people claiming Innocent then this means it's up to a bit of looking at who they investigated. Even if duo was Sane, the best that sandroba could have done in claiming he found RoL to be Innocent was living one more night. Why?
duo unknown
sinani finds innocent
sandroba finds innocent
nard finds sandroba guilty
supersoft finds pyo guilty
even giving sinani and sandroba the benefit of the doubt:
nard or supersoft would have to be faking their investigations. The Town could kill one of them via lynch and shoot the other that night flipping them both innocent. OR the the town could play it safe and just no lynch, forcing sinani/supersoft to investigate RoL and having nard/sandroba investigate someone from the Townie pool that RoL wants to shoot that night. The only way for the Mafia to win this situation is for the Town to lynch AND shoot without thinking ahead. The Framer is irrelevant because since one of sandroba/sinani has to be telling the truth and they both found innocent he can't do anything anyway. The other issue is that even with a perfect 2/2 split - Pyo himself knows he's innocent. If someone wanted to work the other angle and say: Assume pyo is innocent and got framed all the town would have to do is shoot Pyo at night. sandroba would have to lie about his check by guessing nards sanity! Remember he's faking a sane DT here: if he says Pyo was innocent last night and nard says he wasn't then the mafia is between these 2 and Pyo was framed. Sandroba would have to once again fake Sane DT and say Pyo showed up guilty while also framing him on the same night. Unfortunately this also works against them because sinani/supersoft are checking RoL! sinani would see that RoL is Innocent, while supersoft would see him Guilty. That would confirm sinani, and almost confirm supersoft as Paranoid. The Framer can't frame both of the targets and 1 of these guys, most likely 2 will be confirmed on this second check.
If 1 person claims Innocent this was covered before. What it comes down to is the fake DT having to act like a Paranoid DT because the Sane detectives are easy to figure out just from who flips Innocent. This is another reason why the game can be broken: The Town can literally sit around and do so many moves to figure out who is legit while the Mafia has to get lucky and think about their fake checks. They ALSO have to hope that if they kill a Sane Detective that they guess right and get the perfect split of 2/2, and then have to hope the Town doesn't No lynch AND then have to hope they don't get bullied into a perfect checking situation. After all of that they then have to hope none of the Vanilla Town get smart and use themselves as a reference point, or hope no checked the Vigilante. Which is a small hope because even without that the Detectives that didn't check him can check Night 1.
To top it off, the Town KNOWS what the Mafia's starting strategy is. Add in some scumhunting and really this is just a bunch of guys running around a rat trap. Even in the best case scenarios (the mafia guessing right and getting perfect DT splits) that still doesn't address what happens if the Town decides to ignore the Detectives and go the other way: start checking Vanillas and go with a No lynch Day 1. Same result except that what's even worse is the Vanilla pool is smaller. So the Mafia have to kill a DT that same night, which makes looking back at the Dead DTs Night 0 result even easier.
This game was over when the Mafia even attempted to play it.
ETA: There are also a few other ways to do it. You can do things like this:
Assume sinani is lying about his claim and is Scum.
nard has to be Paranoid or sandroba is framed
if sandroba is framed then Rol can't be framed.
This means supersoft's check makes him Paranoid because Pyo can't also be framed.
At this point deconduo if Paranoid:
supersoft is paranoid
nard paranoid
deconduo paranoid. Can't be 3 paranoid DTs.
Set nard to sane:
supersoft paranoid
deconduo paranoid
nard Sane (sees sandroba guilty = sandroba framed)
sandroba Sane sees RoL guilty (confirmed innocent)
This can't work either. 2 sane detectives can't see 2 innocents as guilty.
Do it another way and assume duo was Sane:
deconduo is sane
supersoft is sane or paranoid
sandroba is sane or paranoid
nard is sane or paranoid
Only thing that works here is sandroba to be sane and see Rol guilty via framing. That means nard is paranoid and supersoft is also. This is the only path that works out for Mafia by assuming that sinani is lying about his claim. So you have:
duo as sane
sandroba as sane
nard as paranoid
supersoft as paranoid
sinani lying
Of course at this point the Town just says ok. No lynch. Tonight let the Mafia shoot and have RoL shoot a claimed Vanilla. sandroba/supersoft check the same target tonight (the one being shot by RoL). nard/sinani check RoL. No matter what result comes back at this point it's down to sandroba/sinani as nard and supersoft would be confirmed Paranoid detectives. Sucks doesn't it?
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nice post Ace, I admit I didn't put anywhere near as much thought into it, but the game didn't seem to require it. I had a few questions that I will address tomorrow, because for now I need to sleep.
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Thanks Ace for that writeup. Its much more fleshed out than mine.
This game was going to be somewhat difficult for Mafia, I knew that from the start. This game went through over a dozen different setups while it was in queue, including a 9 vigilante last-man-standing closed setup - maybe Paranoid Mafia was just destined to be a bastard game from the start. When the time came though, I thought I had a reasonably balanced setup. A simple and stupid mistake completely fucked up this game, and I didn't even catch it until the fucking postgame chat with Qatol.
I'm not going to really go into why it turned out the way it did unless I'm asked specific questions - this is the probably going to be the low point of my mafia experience. Don't judge me too harshly, I'll come back with more fun setups like Sleeper Cell and mine & GMarshal's Resurrection Mafia.
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Yeah, iGrok told me RoL was the vig after I died and it was pretty easy to deduce that Sandroba and Viscera were the mafia.
GG well played town.
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EPT
