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On February 25 2011 04:32 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 03:25 Barundar wrote:On February 25 2011 03:08 LSB wrote:On February 24 2011 19:39 Jackal58 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 24 2011 18:33 Barundar wrote:Morning all, as promised I’ve read up and here is my contribution. As a fair warning it’s a wall of text, first is my general comments on the thread so far, last is my analysis. First off, goddammit GMarshal, leaking my top suspect. Can’t you hold it in for 1 night?  I wanted to see if he would actually post in the evening as he promised, but the weak FoS gave him a chance to defend himself before I got around to post. Well, at least it proved that Jackal58 has great reaction time, despite not talking much. My thoughts on the thread so far: GMarshals plan is a lot like what RoL has recommended for PM’s, pick out some random people from the list and start talking to them. While you can’t trust them, you get more to analyse, and it’s easier to catch a mafia slipping up if you have more opinions from them. Just be careful with experienced players, and treat your partners like they are scum. If I was on a scumteam, I would tell my inexperienced teammates to stay out of PM land. Gryffindor proposes a really silly (in lack of a better word) plan, there is no way of finding guaranteed innocents with GF and framer around, and even if one such could be found, all mafia has to do is gain his trust and make him spill, =dead blues. The only benefit of mass claim to a confirmed townie is the coordination of medic protection and DT checks. It won’t magicly find mafia amongst the non claimers, or identify fake claims. What gryffindor does do is post a lot, he promotes activity, and he is actually scumhunting. I don’t give much for his lists, but so far his impact has been positive on the town, as long as people don’t stop thinking for themselves. Regarding annul, you should keep in mind that he opposed GMarshals plan before he (allegedly) got his role PM. Hence I would be very careful with lynching him just for opposing that alone. Other than that agree with Foolishness’ comment, it would be funny if LSB got revenge on annul. Why has a decent case on icemac, but not certain if icemac is aggressive townie or mafia. Analysis of Jackal58Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 00:47 Jackal58 wrote:
Good day fellow scum hunters. Sorry for the late start but I bowl on Tuesday night.
There are quite a few people in this game that I have never seen before so it's going to take me a bit to wrap my head around everything everybody has said so far.
My thoughts on cells:
Thoroughly undecided. If their only reason for being is analysis keep it in the thread.
I'm at work right now so I might not be able to post as much as I'd like, but I'll be in here this evening.
gryffindor why on earth would you claim vet? I did it in XXXVI to avoid being lynched but man that was pointless. You're making the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
This post is COMPLETELY out of the ordinary for Jackal. Jackal’s playstyle as town consist of independent opinions, with a tendency to tunnel. His posting style is stubborn and humorous. He rarely posts long posts, and in general just give short statements, but often posts a lot. When he finds scum, he will make it clear for everyone, state his reasons, and keep up pressure on the person. Being stubborn he is very difficult to convince otherwise, once he has found his target(s). In the above post he differs from his usual play as town in a number of ways. Show nested quote +… so it's going to take me a bit to wrap my head around everything everybody has said so far. First of all he gives multiple excuses as to his posting straight away. This is unlike his other games, even in his first game in mafia xxxv he didn’t feel the need to excuse his inexperience without being called out for it. As I said above, Jackal is an independent player, he doesn’t care much if people accuse him, town yells at him or if the things he sais comes off in the wrong way. Him apologising like this upfront, without anyone even calling him out is unusual. If you a read Ver’s guide to improving at mafia, it’s not natural for a green mindset to apologise and appear useless, since it will make other players pay less attention to what they have to say. It is however entirely within the mindset of a mafia, who just want to make a post noone cares about, and let the town fight with itself instead. He apologies for posting less, but in normal games his many first posts are just one liners, this one is a lengthy one for him. By sheer size it should be an improvement for him, but what does it really contain? Show nested quote + My thoughts on cells:
Thoroughly undecided. If their only reason for being is analysis keep it in the thread. His thoughts are thoroughly undecided. Why even comment then? If this is the reason he felt the need to add to the conversation, then I sincerely expected more. Jackal as town has very strong opinions, and this is just neutral mentioning – he doesn’t improve the plan, he just questions it. Posting without contributing. Show nested quote + gryffindor why on earth would you claim vet? I did it in XXXVI to avoid being lynched but man that was pointless. You're making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. A weak FoS with a relevant question. On one hand it is sort of an opinion, on the other hand it has been posted before. In Guts and Glory he simply quoted Amber[light]’s post and commented “this post ems of scummyness”. Weak FoS isn’t typical Jackal, even if I wouldn’t rule it out. It’s not much to warrant a post like that from him though. Show nested quote + I'm at work right now so I might not be able to post as much as I'd like, but I'll be in here this evening. He promises to post more in the evening. I was holding this analysis back to see if he actually would. As I said in the beginning, this got ruined, but he didn’t post until he got mentioned, and it still proved his reaction time was good. Note that Jackal has been posting from work in his other games, and it hasn’t stopped him from being active. Other suspicious post: Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 01:56 Jackal58 wrote:
I have received a PM from GMarshall as well. Whoopee. I will probably even answer him.
But posting quotes and copies of PMs is a very scummy thing to do. You can make them say anything. Please stop. Sharp reaction to getting PM’ed. Jackal had no problem PM’ing with me in mafia xxxv. ##Vote Jackal58 Actually my style is identical to every other game I've played. Not one of them has me aggressively tunneling anybody in the first day or two. I don't do that until I get a line on somebody. I'm going to have too agree with Jacakl here, Barundar you are reading too much in one post. Sure, it might be useful in RL mafia trying to pick off tells on how people are phrasing things, but in online mafia, it's a whole different game. For example, my first post was apologizing that I wouldn't be active, and I'm town. It's not like that apologizing is necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps I am reading too much into one post. But he isn't doing much to prove me wrong. He puts a nice OMGUS on me, states that I'm part of a scumteam, and then does nothing to scumhunt against me or point out why I would be mafia. He is acting inconsistent with his own scumlist. Problem isn't that he excused himself. Problem is he held an apologetic tone without contributing much. It makes his post suspecious, and I find it interesting that you don't think it is the least suspecious. Now he has shown some agression that can be hard to fake, and is quite typical for him. But he is by no means clear of suspecion just beceause he posts an OMGUS list. I don't find him suspicions because that's how he plays. Jackel58 is known to post an OMGUS list with little/no explanation, but he is scary accurate on the scum. Look at Guts and Glory. Jackel didn't really do much in the game but name 4 people. Of the 4 people, 3 were scum. If we are going to lynch Jackal, it can't just because of a "maybe" or a "tell". I want proof.
Lol when did Jackal become gods gift to scumhunt? He sheeped after Coag onto GGQ in that game, messing up the Amber lynch. He also had me pegged as mafia in a post. In mini mafia V he tunneled pandain so hard he nearly lost the game for town alone.
I wrote Jackal's playstyle into my post. I don't see you disagreeing with what I wrote there? I also explained why his first post differed from that.
But you want "proof". Can you hand me the proof for annul so I can vote him then?
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On February 25 2011 05:06 gryffindor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 04:56 annul wrote:
1, bandwagoning. by whom? by you, you mean? because i am entirely certain that i began the wagons on chaoser and GM. called them out ridic early in the game and continued to question the cells idea logic all game. so... ?
Note the bolded that is a direct lie -> open voting thread -> see the first vote on GMarshal, in the VERY first vote, from yours truly You are lying.
read the actual game thread, not the voting thread. note my first vote was on chaoser, and note at the same time, i have been calling out GM ALL GAME. i realized GM was better than chaoser, so i switched. at no point did i "wagon" up on him. i have always been the voice against him.
if anything, YOU have wagoned onto the annul wagon.
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On February 25 2011 04:51 annul wrote:
i also would like to see the logic behind "i have been nothing but scummy all game"
what, specifically, have i done? i called out a bad idea and voted based on it. what else?
+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 12:47 annul wrote:
okay hi peeps
vote chaoser. that post reeks of redness.
p.s. still no role PM! No explanationOn February 23 2011 12:55 annul wrote:
it reeks of red because he is like "hey so theres weak powers in this game lol" which can only be known if he is a red, since if he was green he cant make that blanket claim and if he was a blue, he'd even be less inclined to make that claim
the only way he can do that is if he is red and he sees the red team has weak or no powers Gets pressured for an explanation and comes up with this nonsensical beauty. Chaoser said 'I don't think the mafia powers are all THAT powerful. Let them frame away, that's one less death to worry about.' There is nothing wrong or scummy about that post, annul just twisting it to his benefitOn February 23 2011 13:31 annul wrote:
pretty sure its better for people to post things in the thread -- much easier to catch red slips that way.
if people only post in these mini town circles, then people are probably more inclined psychologically to trust their town circle and not consider them red, etc.
So you have a degree in psychology now?On February 24 2011 11:24 annul wrote:
i dont really know why it takes more than one post to inform a vote
the cells idea was absolute garbage. so i am pointing at him. the whole "HEY LOL WE HAVE WEAK ROLES" is a ridic tell as well. what more analysis is there to do? Who gives you absolute authority on what is a good or bad idea? Regardless, why does proposing a bad idea make you scum? I already talked about the weak role thing.On February 24 2011 11:39 annul wrote:
ok well i mean
i have great reads on both of them, but i dont know what else i need to say about it. can you tell me why chaoser and GM are NOT red?
the cells idea is horrible. why do we want to keep analysis private? there is no point in "bouncing off ideas" to a RNG "town circle". this only hurts us. why keep analysis of any type from the town? also, the point of these town circles is what exactly? to have people critique any analysis before "revealing" it? ok assume that is the case, then what happens when the mafia are in these cells? player A says "OK so i got an analysis on player D (outside the cell), who i think is mafia" player B says "no thats horrible, ________" and convinces A. A now doesnt say anything, to not look stupid (that IS the point of these cells, after all!). oops, B and D are mafia. we're fucked.
if A just came out and said "hey i have this analysis" B is probably less likely to defend D if it's blatant redness Because person A is a good enough player to do a proper analysis but dumb enough to not post it when B says 'lol thats bad' yeah.On February 24 2011 12:01 annul wrote:
i dont think circles actually force people to think. they inhibit it. and circles with mafia in them can really fuck with the townies. Opinion. How does it inhibit it?On February 24 2011 12:33 annul wrote:
here is the funny thing. LSB is probably upset at me for what i did to him the last mafia game, so he is going to try to do the same thing to me that i did to him. i see it coming.
does it make sense? ofc not. is there literally anyone out there who actually likes this cell idea? i expect the rest of the reds to come out! I like the cell idea. I'm in a cell with people who like the cell idea.On February 24 2011 14:18 annul wrote:
TL towns are generally bad so i dont doubt lots of people like it. its still a very bad plan. i really, really do not understand why predetermined RNGed "circles" have any benefit whatsoever
maybe he is just another town who is also bad and came up with a bad idea, but ;\ Attacking everyone, repeating that its bad. You even say that he could be a townie with a bad idea but still vote for him? Summary:-Flawed logic. Bad idea does not mean scummy, you even admit this yourself -Lots of people think the cells idea is a good one, Are they all mafia too? -Flawed logic. You take one line of chaoser's and completely twist it out of proportion to call him scummy. -You don't really say or do anything else.
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On February 25 2011 05:05 gryffindor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 04:36 deconduo wrote:On February 25 2011 04:29 gryffindor wrote:
It's not blackmail if it is the truth. I have been trying to judge your reactions all game, but I can't get a read on you. You can't get a read on me so you threaten to get me lynchd if I annoy you? Right. Here are our PMs, please tell me what my scummy plan is. + Show Spoiler +To gryffindor:One of the main parts of the cell idea is that no claims are made. -_- Its NOT a town circle, its an idea circle. This post describes it better than I can: Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 01:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
The whole PM issue is one that has gone back and forth for awhile, some for some against. I think it comes down to not so much the hating of PM's but how they are used.
When the games first started circles were formed in them, but the pming also heavily relied on what I like to think of as an "idea circle" or anything on those lines.
People would get together, fully expecting 1 or more of the people they are talking to to be mafia. Rather than discussing role distribution, the group would talk about strategies that could be used, behavioural analyze as a group, clue analyze as a group. There was alot of information being shared, and due to the nature of the group everyone had to participate somehow. Eventually people may end up claiming, but the idea was more on finding reds than confirming town.
I am not sure where this whole stance of confirming town circles and just offing people came from (an active mafia team should easily destroy this unless game is horrrribly town favoured).
If pm's were used as they were in the past, or as the people I routinely pm'd in games did, I believe the skill level would rise.
I could be horribly wrong on this, but I just think the concept of how to use pm's got lost somewhere along the way. Show nested quote +Original Message From gryffindor: I was just really nervous. The reaction testing thing from me is null. I do that regardless of alignment. However, I have been posting lengthier posts, something I did not do in Orgah at all. I am for the Cell idea, actually, so long as claiming waits for confirmation. We don't need any unnecessary claiming. Original Message From deconduo: First off, I think cells are a good idea. I really don't understand how you think they could have any negative effect. Same with annul. Point I was trying to make was that when I wanted to do something to appear townish I handpicked the cell to my advantage. Thats why I was suspicious of GMarshal doing the same thing. You are posting a bit more, but the general style is the same. Lots of reaction testing and weird moves. I'm assuming you posted less in orgah to stay out of the spotlight as you were SK. Original Message From gryffindor: you setup pm circles as scum you like pm circles this game you are scum? that's what i'm getting from that as to how i'm acting this game vs that, i completely disagree with you Original Message From deconduo: Nothing much yet, just got to the thread. I like GMarshal's idea for cells and was going to suggest it myself. I don't like how he 'arranged' them though. If it helps, here is the one I set up from orgah: + Show Spoiler +To: Coagulation, GMarshal, Mr. Wiggles Town are in trouble in this game. It is rampant with inactivity and I just feel like we aren't getting anywhere. As such, I'm proposing we form a PM circle in an attempt to collaborate and talk. I have chose you because I feel you are active without having done anything scummy. Darmousseh was meant to be part of the circle also, and in fact it was him that gave me the idea, but unfortunately he was modkilled for roleclaiming to me without realising it was against the rules. I'm not saying that I trust any of you, in fact I'm quite sure at least one of you is mafia or at least anti-town. However this is more about comparing ideas and talking, as suggested in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181300¤tpage=2#29Please let me know if you are interested. GeneralHankerchief http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/P2Q2Za9db76b5As for your alignment, you seem to be playing similar to orgah. What that means I don't know. Original Message From gryffindor:
do you have any reads so far?
what do you believe i am aligned? you cut out the part that I was concerned with, actually
I didn't change or cut anything.
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1 and 2: "no explanation" and then "oh wait he gave an explanation i just don't like it"
3: don't use ad hominems; is my CLAIM false? who cares if i have a "psych degree" - it makes sense. nobody in TL mafia has a psych degree and there are psych analyses done all the time
4: i have the absolute authority to make value judgments that inform my vote. people asked why, so i told them. it still is a bad idea.
5: you assume i refer to proper analysis. maybe just a "i think D is scum because (reason why)" -- it doesnt need to be PBPA or anything detailed for B to influence A and tell them to stfu.
6: well, you are bad, then.
7: yes, the idea is still bad.
so basically you think i am red for railing against an idea that inherently harms the town? cool ok
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On February 25 2011 05:35 annul wrote:
1 and 2: "no explanation" and then "oh wait he gave an explanation i just don't like it"
No, you voted without giving any reasoning. You only gave a pathetically weak explanation later on when you were pressured to.
3: don't use ad hominems; is my CLAIM false? who cares if i have a "psych degree" - it makes sense. nobody in TL mafia has a psych degree and there are psych analyses done all the time
Fair enough. I give you this one.
4: i have the absolute authority to make value judgments that inform my vote. people asked why, so i told them. it still is a bad idea.
You ignore the second and third part...
5: you assume i refer to proper analysis. maybe just a "i think D is scum because (reason why)" -- it doesnt need to be PBPA or anything detailed for B to influence A and tell them to stfu.
So its 'blatant redness' but only one person noticed it.
6: well, you are bad, then.
k
7: yes, the idea is still bad.
Ignoring the point again
so basically you think i am red for railing against an idea that inherently harms the town? cool ok
No. For saying stuff like 'Vote GM + chaoser lawl' For coming up with shit reasons to explain your scummy votes. For focusing on an idea instead of on the player.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Vote: annul
Got to make him squirm a little more. Not to mention icemac is obviously town....at the very least you guys could vote Jackal so we get better confirmation on him, but I sure as heck ain't voting on a new player who clearly has no fear of posting in the thread.
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On February 25 2011 05:47 Foolishness wrote:
Vote: Annul
So what gives you the right to pop in out of nowhere and drop a vote on the bandwagon?
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A detrimental townie is a bad townie. Either you're red playing horribly aggressive or you're going to run town into the ground as town...either way i'm ok with you getting lynched. Voting for you now, I'm going to class and won't be back till late, will try to get in before end of day but it'll be close.
##vote annul
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On February 25 2011 05:49 deconduo wrote:So what gives you the right to pop in out of nowhere and drop a vote on the bandwagon?
I'm unsure what to think of him at this point. After rereading the thread, something seems a little out of place with Gmarshal, annul, Gryffindor, and LSB don't you think? I want to pressure him more to see how he reacts, because currently his defense isn't convincing me he's town.
And as I said, icemac is a good example of a new town player who people kill because he makes a noob mistake or something. I sure am not voting for him.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On February 24 2011 10:59 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On Insert Time Here kitaman27 wrote:On February 24 2011 09:32 GMarshal wrote:
verdict = either aggressive scum or bad townie
If his posts continue to be this poor then we may have no choice but to hang him I love "scum or town" verdicts. 2.) I'll retract that, thinking on it I'm convinced its just stupid townie
On February 24 2011 00:11 GMarshal wrote:
Gryffindor and annul both are being annoying but I believe they are town, at this point I think that most of the players who are being really active are town
On February 25 2011 04:39 GMarshal wrote:
Annul i'm ambivalent about, I'm not sure if he is scum, but his lack of actual contribution makes me suspicious of him, so for now I'm going to vote Annul, I may switch my vote as more information arises
##Vote annul
GMarshal states he is "convinced" annul is town, yet proceeds to vote him anyway. Currently the votes on annul include GMarshal, who thinks he is town, Gofarman, who classified annul as an inactive, astroorion who is a complete lurker, and LSB who has had problems with annul is past games. Looking solid.
On February 24 2011 15:31 LSB wrote:
For example, in PM gryffindor just defended Iceman/annul.
On February 25 2011 04:33 gryffindor wrote:
We've got 7-8 hours, from my recollection. Let's do something about it. People on 1-2 person wagons need to get on either Icemac or Annul.
Oh?
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Annul's agressive behaviour seems like he is probably scum.
##Unvote
##Vote: Annul
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United States22154 Posts
Thats right, I do not believe annul is scum, but there is a chance I am misreading him, my reasons for lynching him
1.) He is playing poorly, if he is town then I don't want to bring him with me into situations in which I need to be able to scumhunt without being tunneled the entire time. I am perfectly fine with people writing accusations and analysis against me, and when an excellent analysis pops up that "proves" I am scum I will be the first to praise it, despite it being wrong. My only objective this game is to get people to think for themselves rather than accept what they are told, this is the surest way to ensure town victory.
Face it, what annul is doing is not scumhunting its tunneling and accusation without solid base, if he were kind enough to actually provide a decent amount of support for his accusations then, yes I would have no issue taking him with me to the late game, and would retract my vote now
2.) I would rather not lynch a new player that has the balls to go out and post, sure he is new and learning, but I'd rather hang a vet who I know can do better and is playing intentionally poor than a new player who has a chance to learn.
I would rather *not* lynch annul, so I will propose an alternative target, a lurker who just bandwagoned, without providing a reason ICanFlyLow
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i love how its "aggressive behavior" when you are responding to attacks in the same manner they are levied against you
this is why TL towns are inactive; there is an institutionalized disincentive to actually arguing.
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I find it very scummy that someone gets to tell me that I have to change my vote to one of the two (Granted, I didn't vote yet, but let's assume I had my vote on Ser Aspi).
Who are you (Gryff) to tell me I have to change my vote? It's a game. It's definitely not LYLO. I can vote whoeverthehell I want. You disagree? Then try to get my lynch afterwards, but don't try and influence the vote while it's going on without any serious reason.
You think it's scummy that some people can have their own opinion that's not similar to what everyone else says? How so? Is it not scummier to band wagon someone?
That being said, I am going to bandwagon! But not because I don't have the balls to stick to my own choice, but because I found annul's downward spiral to be quite scummy. He seemed OK at first but then started to respond aggressively to the posts, which is exactly what I do when I'm scum.
I still think that it's a bad idea overall to lynch someone with decent experience on day 1. I would much rather have annul as a day 2 lynch or so, but I already explained why I really doubt Icemac is town, and his posts made me think so even more.
Also, RoL's intervention made me think that gryff (my 2nd in line choice, after S.A.) is town, because if he'd be mafia, the mod-intervention would be imba. And I know from when I was mafia in 36 that the mods posting in the thread is 90% to stop the town from taking the fast train to nowhere.
That being said, I sure hope LSB is not wrong about this
##Vote Annul
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I read about the last three pages and found not very strong reasons that Annul is scum.
I don't see much scum tell in his vote switch from Chaoser to Gmarshall. Annul did justify his vote on Gmarshall on why his plan is bad.
Another thing people keep mentioning is the aggressiveness how Annul is playing which looks like how he played in XXXV where he was scum. The difference is there he was accusing LSB being scum with flawed reasons. This game, he actually justified his vote and did provide reasons unlike the old "LSB postings are spams and have few contributions."
I played with Annul many times before and it seems that he is always aggressive on day1.
XXXV: Accused LSB mafia because he spams and don't contribute much.
Merc Mafia: Claimed medic to me (day vig) and planned to have 100% town victory.
Survivor Mafia (ongoing): After the quick 3 people alliance, he rallied and formed the counter 5 people alliance to take control of the game.
This game compared to other games I played with Annul, I consider that he is playing less aggressive.
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United States22154 Posts
you know what, I'm tired of bandwagons, I told myself I would play differently this game, so here goes.
I still dont think annul is scum, hence I will not contribute to hanging him, if you guys want to feel free, but I'm going to trust LD's experience with this player, heck I'm slightly pissed at annul for tunneling on me, but still I don't want to waste my vote killing a player I think is town, and while I wouldn't be happy to have annul with me at lylo, I would be even unhappier to have ICanFlyLow with me
##Unvote
##vote: ICanFlyLow
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I have been inactive I really do not know who to vote for so I guess I am going to bandwagon on Icemac. But if you look at who is voting for icemac it's the new players that are voting for him and that annul is getting voted by the more experienced players in the game.
##Vote: Icemac
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On February 25 2011 05:54 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 15:31 LSB wrote:
For example, in PM gryffindor just defended Iceman/annul. Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 04:33 gryffindor wrote:
We've got 7-8 hours, from my recollection. Let's do something about it. People on 1-2 person wagons need to get on either Icemac or Annul. Oh?
Sure.
Original post
On February 24 2011 15:17 LSB wrote:EBWOP Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 14:14 why wrote:
LSB, I cannot believe I just read an entire page of you and annul fighting again. Seriously there is no reason to get drawn into that again if you are town. And why are you voting for annul? You say that he is playing similarly to XXXV in that he is tunneling a player early. The (obvious) difference is that this game he isn't really pushing for GMarshal or chaoser's lynch like he did yours, he's just sort of putting their names out there. I feel like you are just voting for annul because you don't like him and not because you think he's mafia. Exactly, I've already explained why Annul is a horrible choice as we go to lylo. In addition, Annul is playing pretty scummy you can read my responses to his posts. Its a two for one deal. Show nested quote +
In other news here is my current lynch pick: icemac
He has a reasonable activity level if you just look at the post count, but really he has said absolutely nothing. He says who we should vote for in a general sense, but avoids naming names. The one post that he does mention names in he basically just takes the top 4 most active players with no further explanation. He seems to be forcing himself to post when he doesn't actually have anything to say, so as to give the illusion of contribution.
When I read through those posts, I see Icemanic supporting Annul's thoughts against the plan. In addition "day 1 analysis doesn't matter" is something I always watch out for as scum defence of scumbudie. To me, if Annul is mafia, icemanic isn't looking so hot.
Gryfs Pms
Original Message From gryffindor:
that guy also defended a few other people, but sure, he didn't want to lynch annul.
Can you admit that you wanting to lynch annul is null in that you would be doing it regardless of what either of your alignments are?
This is a clear defense of Icemanic, and trying to soft defend annul. I am confident in saying that if I replied with "ya your right, I think annul is town but I hate him and just want to lynch him", gryffindor would be supporting Annul.
Of course, why lynch Annul?
Well lets look at his most recent posts
On February 25 2011 04:49 annul wrote:
that makes no sense
i dont know why this wagon is rolling on iceman
we need to be voting for people that actually deserve it, such as people who bring in horrible ideas, like GM.
obviously when there is 1 minute left if the vote is still close i will have to revote to iceman, but i would really much rather this wagon be GM/chaos or, if it HAS to be me (why is this always the case regardless of my role?), then me and GM.
remember LSB just has a grudge against me. go read 35. ive called GM out for a bad idea and actually gave reasons, and i'm red... where 5 people have wagoned onto iceman for a much worse reason and face no heat? think about it
He's insisting that we lynch GM. Why? Oh, because of his sudden ascertain that town circles are 'ainti-town' for no reason http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191888¤tpage=30#581
In addition, in this post, he has not taken a stance on Iceman (sorry if I missed a post where he did). He did say in his post that he will vote Iceman, if Iceman is on the chopping block
And he does nothing else but respond to his own posts.
Storytime! Why Annul was an easy read in XXXV
1) He mad up stuff and pushed stuff that didn't exist
Check, this game he's pushing GMarshal, saying GMarshal is clear mafia, although there is literally nothing in his accusation
2) Besides responses, he posted nothing else
Look at Annul's posts. How many of his posts deal with things other than Gmarshal or defending himself? I can't find any.
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On February 25 2011 05:08 Barundar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 04:32 LSB wrote:On February 25 2011 03:25 Barundar wrote:On February 25 2011 03:08 LSB wrote:On February 24 2011 19:39 Jackal58 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 24 2011 18:33 Barundar wrote:Morning all, as promised I’ve read up and here is my contribution. As a fair warning it’s a wall of text, first is my general comments on the thread so far, last is my analysis. First off, goddammit GMarshal, leaking my top suspect. Can’t you hold it in for 1 night? I wanted to see if he would actually post in the evening as he promised, but the weak FoS gave him a chance to defend himself before I got around to post. Well, at least it proved that Jackal58 has great reaction time, despite not talking much. My thoughts on the thread so far: GMarshals plan is a lot like what RoL has recommended for PM’s, pick out some random people from the list and start talking to them. While you can’t trust them, you get more to analyse, and it’s easier to catch a mafia slipping up if you have more opinions from them. Just be careful with experienced players, and treat your partners like they are scum. If I was on a scumteam, I would tell my inexperienced teammates to stay out of PM land. Gryffindor proposes a really silly (in lack of a better word) plan, there is no way of finding guaranteed innocents with GF and framer around, and even if one such could be found, all mafia has to do is gain his trust and make him spill, =dead blues. The only benefit of mass claim to a confirmed townie is the coordination of medic protection and DT checks. It won’t magicly find mafia amongst the non claimers, or identify fake claims. What gryffindor does do is post a lot, he promotes activity, and he is actually scumhunting. I don’t give much for his lists, but so far his impact has been positive on the town, as long as people don’t stop thinking for themselves. Regarding annul, you should keep in mind that he opposed GMarshals plan before he (allegedly) got his role PM. Hence I would be very careful with lynching him just for opposing that alone. Other than that agree with Foolishness’ comment, it would be funny if LSB got revenge on annul. Why has a decent case on icemac, but not certain if icemac is aggressive townie or mafia. Analysis of Jackal58Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 00:47 Jackal58 wrote:
Good day fellow scum hunters. Sorry for the late start but I bowl on Tuesday night.
There are quite a few people in this game that I have never seen before so it's going to take me a bit to wrap my head around everything everybody has said so far.
My thoughts on cells:
Thoroughly undecided. If their only reason for being is analysis keep it in the thread.
I'm at work right now so I might not be able to post as much as I'd like, but I'll be in here this evening.
gryffindor why on earth would you claim vet? I did it in XXXVI to avoid being lynched but man that was pointless. You're making the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
This post is COMPLETELY out of the ordinary for Jackal. Jackal’s playstyle as town consist of independent opinions, with a tendency to tunnel. His posting style is stubborn and humorous. He rarely posts long posts, and in general just give short statements, but often posts a lot. When he finds scum, he will make it clear for everyone, state his reasons, and keep up pressure on the person. Being stubborn he is very difficult to convince otherwise, once he has found his target(s). In the above post he differs from his usual play as town in a number of ways. Show nested quote +… so it's going to take me a bit to wrap my head around everything everybody has said so far. First of all he gives multiple excuses as to his posting straight away. This is unlike his other games, even in his first game in mafia xxxv he didn’t feel the need to excuse his inexperience without being called out for it. As I said above, Jackal is an independent player, he doesn’t care much if people accuse him, town yells at him or if the things he sais comes off in the wrong way. Him apologising like this upfront, without anyone even calling him out is unusual. If you a read Ver’s guide to improving at mafia, it’s not natural for a green mindset to apologise and appear useless, since it will make other players pay less attention to what they have to say. It is however entirely within the mindset of a mafia, who just want to make a post noone cares about, and let the town fight with itself instead. He apologies for posting less, but in normal games his many first posts are just one liners, this one is a lengthy one for him. By sheer size it should be an improvement for him, but what does it really contain? Show nested quote + My thoughts on cells:
Thoroughly undecided. If their only reason for being is analysis keep it in the thread. His thoughts are thoroughly undecided. Why even comment then? If this is the reason he felt the need to add to the conversation, then I sincerely expected more. Jackal as town has very strong opinions, and this is just neutral mentioning – he doesn’t improve the plan, he just questions it. Posting without contributing. Show nested quote + gryffindor why on earth would you claim vet? I did it in XXXVI to avoid being lynched but man that was pointless. You're making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. A weak FoS with a relevant question. On one hand it is sort of an opinion, on the other hand it has been posted before. In Guts and Glory he simply quoted Amber[light]’s post and commented “this post ems of scummyness”. Weak FoS isn’t typical Jackal, even if I wouldn’t rule it out. It’s not much to warrant a post like that from him though. Show nested quote + I'm at work right now so I might not be able to post as much as I'd like, but I'll be in here this evening. He promises to post more in the evening. I was holding this analysis back to see if he actually would. As I said in the beginning, this got ruined, but he didn’t post until he got mentioned, and it still proved his reaction time was good. Note that Jackal has been posting from work in his other games, and it hasn’t stopped him from being active. Other suspicious post: Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 01:56 Jackal58 wrote:
I have received a PM from GMarshall as well. Whoopee. I will probably even answer him.
But posting quotes and copies of PMs is a very scummy thing to do. You can make them say anything. Please stop. Sharp reaction to getting PM’ed. Jackal had no problem PM’ing with me in mafia xxxv. ##Vote Jackal58 Actually my style is identical to every other game I've played. Not one of them has me aggressively tunneling anybody in the first day or two. I don't do that until I get a line on somebody. I'm going to have too agree with Jacakl here, Barundar you are reading too much in one post. Sure, it might be useful in RL mafia trying to pick off tells on how people are phrasing things, but in online mafia, it's a whole different game. For example, my first post was apologizing that I wouldn't be active, and I'm town. It's not like that apologizing is necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps I am reading too much into one post. But he isn't doing much to prove me wrong. He puts a nice OMGUS on me, states that I'm part of a scumteam, and then does nothing to scumhunt against me or point out why I would be mafia. He is acting inconsistent with his own scumlist. Problem isn't that he excused himself. Problem is he held an apologetic tone without contributing much. It makes his post suspecious, and I find it interesting that you don't think it is the least suspecious. Now he has shown some agression that can be hard to fake, and is quite typical for him. But he is by no means clear of suspecion just beceause he posts an OMGUS list. I don't find him suspicions because that's how he plays. Jackel58 is known to post an OMGUS list with little/no explanation, but he is scary accurate on the scum. Look at Guts and Glory. Jackel didn't really do much in the game but name 4 people. Of the 4 people, 3 were scum. If we are going to lynch Jackal, it can't just because of a "maybe" or a "tell". I want proof. Lol when did Jackal become gods gift to scumhunt? He sheeped after Coag onto GGQ in that game, messing up the Amber lynch. He also had me pegged as mafia in a post. In mini mafia V he tunneled pandain so hard he nearly lost the game for town alone. I wrote Jackal's playstyle into my post. I don't see you disagreeing with what I wrote there? I also explained why his first post differed from that.
What I am saying is that Jackal wrote two kinds of posts this game. The first is just an apology that he's going to be busy. This is very standard. And the second is his normal fair, not explaining much.
The problem is your argument is this.
1) Jackal isn't posting as usual, so he must be mafia
2) Jackal is posting as usual, so he must be mafia.
You are going to have to pick one of the two. You can't argue both.
As for Jackal58 having good hunches, iirc he wasn't too far off the mark in midgame XXXVI
But you want "proof". Can you hand me the proof for annul so I can vote him then?
Look to the post I just did
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