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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Then we get into Prisoners Delima. Lets say we order the Medics to protect LSB. The medic has two choices, protect LSB, or don't However, if we convince the Mafia that the medic is protecting LSB, its just as good protection as if LSB was actually protected, since mafia isn't going to make that risk The medic is free to do whatever he wants then Or. We could just have lots of clashes and not actually have any important roles. That would take care of the medic problem pretty fast | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On January 03 2011 14:59 kitaman27 wrote: I disagree. That assumes that the vanilla townie is dead. Even if a clash occurs, the vanilla role is still alive to contribute and still counts towards the win condition threshold. Not really. Lets look at the two senarios A) 1 DT 1 Medic. Mafia shoots the medic Result? 1 DT left B) 1DT 1 Townie. Mafia shoots a random person Result? 50% 1 DT left. 50% 1 Townie left Its like me taking a doller from you. Heads you keep the doller. Tails I keep it. Not good chance. Best case scenario, the clash involves a mafia and leaves them without a role. Sure, the clash is unfortunate, but I wouldn't go as far as saying its a kill. Sure the mafia will always get a role. We alreday denied the good roles, so the role is kindof useless for the mafia. Perhaps, but I would think the town members with the lower picks would prioritize the medic and dt roles rather that the less useful roles to prevent that type of situation. So there might be some doubling on certain roles, but it would come at the loss of something like the Politician or Veteran, rather than the medic or dt. Why would we want to give up a Veteran Role? I guess we could do somethig like spot 6 be 50% doctor 50% vet And spot 21 be 100% doctor. But thats radfield's plan, and yeah, mafia still shot the DT night one. I proposed that the anti-town roles be pre-determined for town manipulation while the town roles were left for selection. It also kinda takes the fun out of "pick your power" when your power is chosen for you, but I'm not strictly against your idea. If we do decide to take your course of action, we should finalize the suggested role list before the alignment pm's go out to prevent any tampering. 1) Higher seeded players will be the ones who get roles, so the mafia probably will hit high anyways 2) Think of the number picking phase, everyone picking random numbers will have a LOT of clashes. Do you think that having the whole town do that is going to be any better? | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On January 03 2011 15:11 bumatlarge wrote: Taking out the watcher role? For shame. Well I guess it was completely broken *wink*  Who knows? Maybe you'll get politican and then we find out that it too is completly broken! | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
I'm moving the copy cat up because of a possible mafia combo. (Day 1 Vig shoots CPR Doc, copycat gets lost somewhere.) With the Copy Cat higher on the role list, it should be easier to determine what happened. I have moved down the Janitor. Although the Janitor might be dangerous. It's not as dangerous as a rouge Copy Cat. Proposed Role Picking list 1. CPR Doc 2. Comp Vig 3. Copy Cat 4. JOAT 5. Bullet Bill 6. Doctor 7. Doctor 8. Role Cop 9. Alignment Cop 10. Role Blocker 11. Janitor 12. Prince of Darkness 13. Day Vig 14. Pardoner 15. Politican 16. Mason 17. Hider 18. Bulletproof 19. Veteran 20. God Father 21. Random a role[ | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
And this wouldn't be the first game where we gave mafia perfect information. In PYP2, besides for the traitor role, mafia basically knew where every single other role was. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Lets pretend the copy cat is at position #19 or something low. Say the day vig kills the CPR doc day 1. But apparently someone else took the copy cat role and Position 19 never got it. That leaves 17 other candidates for the copycat role. The key thing is that if the day vig uses his ability. We know where he is. But we won't know where the copy cat is. By placing the copy cat up high, we solve this problem because it leaves only 3 possible locations for where the copy cat it. Number Clashing is good for the town as it adds an element of randomness to the draft order Role Clashing is bad for the town as it lessens the amount of blue roles. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Also, it isn't that hard for the mafia to pick up the day vig and copycat. All they have to do is just send in the PM to ace saying that they want the roles. As long as they pick up the copycat and the day vig before the assigned townie does, they got it. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
This was the assigned role list + Show Spoiler + #1 Comp Vig #2 Bad Santa #3 Prince of Darkness #4 33/33/33 CV, Bad Santa or PoD #5 50% Role Cop, 50% Defensive role(Vet, Meth Man, or Bulletproof. 33% chance of each) #6 50% Joat......... 50% Defensive role #7 50% Bullet Bill, 50% Defensive role #8 50% Role Cop, 50% Defensive role #9 50% Joat.........50% Defensive role #10 50% Bullet Bill, 50% Defensive role #11 25% Role Cop, 25% Defensive role, 25% Doctor, 25% role of your choice(not tracker) #12 25% Joat, 25% Defensive role, 25% Doctor, 25% role of your choice(not tracker) #13 25% Bullet Bill, 25% Defensive role, 25% Doctor, 25% role of your choice(not tracker) #14. 50% Tracker, 25% doctor, 25% Copy Cat(recommended) or Other(Alignment Cop, Mason, Martyr, etc.) #15. 50% Tracker, 25% doctor, 25% Copy Cat(recommended) or Other #16. 50% Tracker, 25% doctor, 25% Copy Cat(recommended) or Other #17 50% role cop, 50% other #18 50% Joat, 50% other #19 50% Bullet Bill, 50% other #20 50% tracker, 50% other Now lets make predictions on who will pick what. People will want to take the nice shiny role that others probably didn't take above them. + Show Spoiler + #1 Comp Vig #2 Bad Santa #3 Prince of Darkness #4 Town #5 Role Cop #6 Joat #7 Bullet Bill #8 Defensive role #9 Defensive role #10 Defensive role #11 Doctor #12 Doctor #13 role of your choice #14. Tracker #15. Copy Cat #16. Other #17 other #18 other #19 other #20 other Changes between Predictions and Actual. + Show Spoiler + #1 Comp Vig #2 Bad Santa #3 Traitor #4 Town #5 Role Cop #6 (Traitor) Town #7 Vanilla Mafia (role cop) #8 Bullet Bill #9 Meth Man #10 Tracker #11 (Meth Man) Vanilla #12 Doctor #13 Copy Cat #14. (Tracker) Vanilla #15. Day Vig #16. (Copy Cat) Vanilla Town #17 Mason #18 Watcher #19 Martyr #20 other 1. The traitors. This is expected as #3 and #6 switched 2. The Mafia. Mafia did a little switch up with #7 and #8. 3. Random townie's not picking what was predicted. This actually happened very little Besides the traitor, and mafia jockeying roles around #7/#8. We see that the choices were suprisingly accurate Now, what the mafia predicted at the start of night one What the mafia probably predicted. + Show Spoiler + #1 Comp Vig #2 Bad Santa #3 Prince of Darkness #4 Town #5 Role Cop #6 Townie or Traitor ^^Traitor somewhere here #7 Vanilla #8 Bullet Bill #9 Defensive role #10 Defensive role #11 Doctor #12 Doctor #13 role of your choice #14 Tracker #15 Day Vig #16 Other #17 Mason #18 other #19 other They were only wrong about #10, and #11. In fact basically the mafia had a perfect role list, just they don't really know what goes on at them end (where there was no important roles anyways) Now what devastation did the mafia do with this near perfect role list? Night 1: Hit the role cop. Night 2: Hit the most vocal townie Night 3: Hit a confirmed townie Night 4: Hit a confirmed Doctor. Remember, the mafia only has 1 KP a night, so even if they do know a perfect role list, it will take them a long time before they can actually do anything about it. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 1. CPR Doc 2. Comp Vig 3. Copy Cat 4. JOAT 5. Bullet Bill 6. Doctor 7. Doctor 8. Role Cop 9. Alignment Cop 10. Role Blocker 11. Tracker 12. Janitor 13. Prince of Darkness 14. Day Vig 15. Pardoner 16. Politican 17. Mason 18. Floridian 19. Hider 20. Bulletproof 21. Veteran 22. God Father Tracker is useful as an information role. And floridian is a role that can confirm itself. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
This can be accomplished in one of three way 1) Everyone randomizing their picks through a RNG. Easiest option, although not 100% effective, it will generate randomness 2) Everyone declaring what number they will pick However, this is bad because it allows easier access for the mafia to the roles they want 3) Everyone getting an assigned number (this would be your number on the signup list). We will then be able to track who got bumped down. The reason why we need to spread out the draft is because the number drafting stage can be exploited. The number draft is not random. A lot of people like to pick the numbers 1, 4, 6, 8, 10. To illustrate this I'll provide a histogram + Show Spoiler [Histogram of PYP1 and PYP2 Picks] + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/whQYJ.png) This is chart of all the first numbers picked in PYP1 and PYP2 Knowing this, the mafia can easily exploit this fact Check out the old draft + Show Spoiler + 1. CPR Doc 2. Comp Vig 3. Copy Cat 4. JOAT 5. Bullet Bill 6. Doctor 7. Doctor 8. Role Cop 9. Alignment Cop 10. Role Blocker 11. Janitor 12. Prince of Darkness 13. Day Vig 14. Pardoner 15. Politican 16. Mason 17. Hider 18. Bulletproof 19. Veteran 20. God Father 21. Random a role There is a giant 'sweet spot' The information/townie roles. They are grouped together. Mafia will pick draft orders such as [7][1], [9][1], [11][1], [12][1], [13][1] in an attempt to snap up as many information roles as possible. This would work because the town would probably concentrate it's picks at the start (because of human nature. Really, who would pick a number like 16? So the town would trip over itself allowing the mafia to maneuver into position. Additional solution. One other way we can solve this is to modify the draft order so that it alternates between an important town information role, and a role we are trying to keep away from mafia hands. For example, the first six roles could look like 1. CPR Doc 2. JOAT 3. Comp Vig 4. Bullet Bill 5. Copy Cat 6. Doctor Instead | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
2. JOAT 3. Vig 4. Bullet Bill 5. Copy Cat 6. Doctor 7. Role Blocker 8. Doctor 9. Day Vig 10. Role Cop 11. Pardoner 12. Alignment Cop 13. Politican 14. Tracker 15. Mason 16. Witch 17. Hider 18. Janitor 19. Bulletproof 20. Prince of Darkness 21. Veteran 22. God Father Philosophy Red Roles are "Watch Roles". These roles if they do anything suspicious the town can easily tell and lynch. Mafia cannot do much with these roles Green Roles are "Pro town roles". These roles are crucial as their abilities to gather information and protect others can bring town victory Blue Roles are "role verifiable roles". These role can easily prove that they picked the role that they were suppose to pick. This will be useful if people find if someone stole their pick, or when we're hunting the traitor. Alternation : The roles that we don't want the mafia to get their hands on are the green roles. That's why I alternated the green roles with the red/blue roles. This way it will be harder for the mafia to snag up these roles. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On January 07 2011 08:22 Fishball wrote: Decided to join last minute, I haven't read anything yet, including OP. I'll read it later when I have time. I just want to bring this up front first, it will be very unlikely for me to follow LSB's plan. Why not? | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
For starters: There's going to be a few townies that get the role they want. Maybe there's going to be a Bullet Bill, and a JOAT. There's going to be a whole bunch of townies that tried to pick the Bullet Bill and the Joat, but didn't get it so they just ended up green. There's going to be a whole bunch of roles that are important left untouched because no townie decided to pick it. It's going to be easy for mafia to pick up the roles they want. Just get a high draft number and start stealing. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On January 07 2011 09:49 Amber[LighT] wrote: You act like it will be so easy for mafia to get high draft numbers. Doing it this way allows them to downplay their draft numbers, giving them more comfort during the draft for roles that could be beneficial for them or detrimental for the town to lose. Firstly, most of the things I outlined still are problems even if mafia is dead last in the draft. The key isn't mafia interference (That will always exist), the key is town clashing with other town. Secondly, my plan is doing the opposite. Its forcing the mafia so that they can't use the roles they draft to help themselves or face execution. Since we know where roles such as the Copy Cat, CPR Doc, Roleblocker ect are, if the mafia attempts to use these roles for their own benefit, we can easily flush them out. Thirdly, I've already outlined a way for the mafia to get high draft numbers. In fact, the mafia doesn't really even need high draft numbers because I don't believe many townies would actively try to deny the roles such as godfather or Janitor from the mafia. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On January 07 2011 13:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote: also lsb -_- *facepalm* Your plan gives wayyyyyy to much information to mafia. It also gives the mafia a stupid easy time of faking being town depending on the role they get. I've already addressed information. Mafia had virtually full information in PYP2 and couldn't do much about it. Secondly with 4 potential protection roles, it shouldn't be an issue What do you mean by faking town? @Bum. Why would any slot 9 person go for Joat? The problem is if we allow for people to bit a wee bit flexible, it allows mafia to easily shuffle around roles. For example, lets say #5 Copycat, decides to pick Day Vig instead. This could be a potential mafia transfer of the copycat role to somewhere hidden. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Role cop is important if mafia decides to mess around with the role list / hunting traitors. Vig / bulletproof I guess you could say are fillers, but hey, being untouchable at night might encourage people to be active @Fishball Certainly information helps the mafia. But you are overemphasizng the impact. Lets say I tell you (the mafia) that Player 1 and 2 are doctors, and Players 3-6 are DTs. You have 1 KP. How does the mafia instantly win? You had all the information you needed in PYP2, about as much as my plan. I'll re-link the post for you www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7486616 Please stop just repeating what other people already said and actually start thinking and adressing my responces The key thing you are missing is that the town needs information too. Lets say everyone choose random roles. Eventually the Bullet Bills or DTs will have to come out and clain. The problem is how would the town know whether they are telling the truth or not? By giving the town the information, it helps deal with this issue Lastly, if the Mafia conforms, they will lose because of the shear number of investigative roles. | ||
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