EPTInsane Mafia - Page 43
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
That being said, orgolove, that is a good, constructive analysis that can generate discussion, and discussion we shall have! It is not a decision to be made lightly. If we select a mafia into the position, it would be a disaster of cosmic proportions. Conversely, if we select an important blue into the position, the town will be much closer to victory. Agreed, it is a decision that needs to be taken heavily into consideration. Electing a Scum-Mayor would suck, but I don't think it's quite as disastrous as you make it out to be. It will give the Mafia a bit more pull and influence, yes, but as long as we don't trust the Mayor completely blindly, we can limit that influence. And yes, a blue as Mayor is always good. THESIS: So it raises the question, are the benefits greater than the risks? So let me reiterate. According to his own descriptions, DrH can check ONE person a night to see if he has Murrayitis. Murrayitis isn't a disease that kills immediately. Rather than acting on a timer, it requires the mafia to go through and infect more than half the town. If the mafia managed to infect over 20 townies, then the game's probably already over. You decide - is the ability to check what is essentially second priority on ONE person ONE night, in a 40 person game, so important that it requires the protection afforded to a mayor? This is not all completely true. M-itis does not rely solely on the controlled spread of the Mafia. It is "highly contagious" and will spread to anyone in contact with infected persons. So, if an infected blue watches or investigates, etc. (depending on roles in the game) a Mafia, that Mafia member is also infected. I think some people are forgetting that the Mafia is also at risk to die once the M-itis pops. Proposed Scenarios: 1. Dr.H is elected and is Town: Having someone who can combat the spread of M-itis while being immune to it (without Plague Doctor protection) and immune to night kills (while bodyguards are alive) is, I believe, very important in this particular game. He can then find out who has M-itis (and simultaneously, his role will be PMd to the poke-ey) and direct the Plague Doctors to give them immunity. 2. Dr.H is elected and is Mafia: He could do all this fake claiming and elaborate planning to get Mafia members to fake his claims. However, this has a couple issues which Dr.H has elaborated on many many times. Would a Mafia really put his neck out there THIS far just to gain night immunity and an extra vote? If there are any blue roles that can kill, it would be much better for the Mafia to remain unsuspected at all, because aside from a lynch, the Mafia won't get killed at night (unless there are blue kills or M-itis). Additionally, if Dr.H had multiple scumbuddies faking his claim for the ruse, well then every time, he has outed a friend, because you can be damn sure that whoever he pokes and comes forward will be scrutinized and probably DT checked. And if we believe that Dr.H is being very scummy, we lynch. The loss of the Mayor would really suck though. I believe it is, in fact, VERY important to be checking, one-by-one who has M-itis. That is probably the biggest threat in the game (only "probably" because of lack of known roles). Next, to support his second point, he continued from his roleclaim and declared that by "poking" someone the first night and having the target confirm the event, he will definitely be shown as a blue. Considering the number of unknowns in this game, there are so many potential traps in here that we can't possibly trust this. And apparently I'm not the only one to pick up on it. Just to name a few: I believe this could be said about any of the candidates. There are so many potential traps with electing any good player to be Mayor. We can't possibly trust anyone in the game, as is the nature of Mafia. I close this with one last thing I place under your consideration. The Town Mayor is a position of leadership. Both with his ability to immediately lynch 1 player, as well as his increased number of votes in the daily lynches, the mayor has a responsibility to take charge of the town and be a levelheaded leader who will not be guided by emotion. If we do get an experienced, well-intentioned and collected leader However, DoctorHelvetica has been increasingly emotional and defensive as questions against his alignment mounted. DrH could not keep his cool when people merely questioned him during his candidacy. Can we truly trust him to lead the town as a mayor, unaffected by his personal bias? I do somewhat agree with you here, but only on the part where Dr.H has gotten increasingly emotional as the thread went on. We do need a Mayor who is a good leader and can take the responsibility of the position. However, I'm not sure I see the other candidates being able to do it as effectively. In my opinion, Dr.H has kept his cool fairly well. He has been stable throughout this game. Dr.H is a very responsible and experienced player, and he has proven himself as a leader, even amongst all of the questioning. I would say that he has been so emotional (I see it as frustrated rather than emotional) because he had said the same things over and over for multiple pages. His campaign has been concrete this whole time, and he offers a lot to the town, with relatively low gain for scum if he is Mafia. In conclusion, I believe that the election of Dr.H grants more benefits to the town than possible risks if he were Mafia. I think he is a smart choice because of his ability to combat the disease that will most likely destroy many players. The longer we can keep the M-itis explosion at bay, the better off the town will be, and Dr.H's role seems to lend itself very well to that ability. | ||
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Archas
United States6531 Posts
Despite all of the suspicion that's fallen around the Doc, my vote remains with him. I'm also feeling really shitty today, so I'm not really in the mood to do a lot of quote analysis and C/P'ing, but he makes a good case for himself and offers a practical solution that addresses the possibilities of him either being Mafia or spreading Murrayitis with the stick. I personally don't think that Orgolove, one of the Doc's primary opponents, argues his point sufficiently for me to change my vote. I do not feel this because of past actions in Haunted Mafia, so I have no bias in that regard. I am speaking strictly in terms of the events that have transpired in this game, and those actions seem to me like Orgolove relies on word-twisting and subtle attacks to discredit people. There's nothing wrong with that methodology in a game like Mafia; in fact, I would encourage that playstyle. However, I feel that he's a bit too hostile and not convincing enough for my vote to be swayed. + Show Spoiler + Note to Orgolove: In no way do I mean to come across as antagonistic toward you. I simply don't agree with your method of debate thus far; I hope you understand this. =) Oh, and by the way, at the very beginning of this game, where you said you were gonna run for Mayor and use a spreadsheet, you'll recall that I said that spreadsheet was a reason I wouldn't vote for you because of complications last game. You seem to feel that it was because the data on it pinned me as Mafia. I'd just like to point out that that isn't why I'm against the spreadsheet. (In fact, I don't think it ever did put any solid evidence on me as Mafia... if anything, I myself inadvertently planted the seeds of my demise by correcting your profile description of me, saying it was Joe Pesci, a movie actor in MAFIA films *cough cough*. Stupid move by me, to be honest.) No, it was because that spreadsheet, despite your best efforts, was riddled with errors and misinformation, which skewed the discussion of clues in the thread. I say this because I want to drive the point home that I disagree with your methodology in terms of this game only; I don't have any weird vendetta against you. =) I'll probably talk more if/when I feel better today. I'm still reading the topic and what transpires here, though, so I definitely won't be out of the loop. | ||
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DCLXVI
United States729 Posts
On October 30 2010 18:41 Node wrote: I don't want to be over-obvious, but I will say that I have information that has me believe that this is not the case. I can't say more at the moment as I'm already afraid that I've put myself too far in the open. I wish you didn't have to reveal your role like that. I tried to bring up this subject some 20+ pages ago but it got ignored in the shitstorm of an election we have here. Here it is for reference: On October 29 2010 13:13 DCLXVI wrote: Alright, just got home from work and read through the thread briefly, I will post on the mayor candidates later. Just something to think about for now: The mafia kp is 2+1 and it is likely that a mafia role includes infecting someone with murrayitis. Could that +1 in the kp be referring to something else though? In haunted mafia certain roles could poison someone, who would then die one day later. Maybe that +1 is a different way of killing, since infecting someone with murrayitis doesn't really kill them. Sure, come day 4/5/6 it may kill the targets, but the mafia seems underpowered right now. Every townie is blue, and the normal ratio is about 19:6 town to mafia (right?) so 3:1 town to mafia. Right now it is 39  , about 4:1 town to mafia. can we talk about new points to the election or about this or even role speculation. 20+ pages of personal attacks and repeating the same comments is a pain to read and sort through and doesn't seem to help the town. My take on the mayor election: Fishball - I still think that you are safe enough within your circle and I would rather have you as a back up leader since we cannot be sure of the security of your circle. once a few people die in it we can scrutinize the few remaining for a mafia. I still don't understand why all of you don't want to reveal yourselves. If there is a mafia in the circle - highly likely I think - then the mafia knows all of you anyways. You are just withholding information from the town for what purpose? Pandain - Why should you be mayor again? vague references to a strong role and being able to confirm your alliance somehow? It seems that you are running more on the "DrH and Fish are bad for mayor, so just vote for me". Oh, and that you are "transparent" .. >_> I must have missed your reasoning for why you should be the mayor, could you please quote that for me or restate it briefly? Doc - so people have found some small and what I think to be unlikely loopholes in your plan. Still you managed to argue with about every single person in the thread. In my (limited) experience mafia players try to pick a fight with one or two players at a time more like what orgolove is doing. You seem to be a decent candidate, but I must repeat what others said already - you did handle the criticism well at first but then broke down and started lashing out at others. You have been mafia too many times for this to happen to you as a mafia, so I think this actually puts you more confirmed blue but not as good as a mayor/townie. People won't see the power in your ability till turn 5/6 when we are skating the line of losing half the townies, you should try to convince them more of this. To me you look townie which is good since I would rather have a 99% sure townie in office with a mediocre role than a 50% sure townie with a strong role or a deceptive player. I still don't like any of the candidates so I will leave my vote on myself for now. I may or may not be able to change my vote in time, but that is fine for me. Sure it may look scummy, but I feel like abstaining from this vote. I hope I fully explained my reasonings above. People on my watch list: Bumatlarge - you started out posting well, running for mafia, then dropped out in favor of fish and haven't said much recently. It almost looks as if you both are mafia and you didn't want to interfere with his election. Then when his campaign floundered (sorry) you tried to take it back claiming you didn't actually back out earlier (but doch quoted you doing so). Your reasoning was that you had the same election principles but then you brought up some weird circle forming role and then dropped it as soon as people started saying that role with fishbowls might be OP for the town NB - go back and look at everything doch said about you. You have brought very little to the table and have made some very spammy posts. I think your posting has got a bit better but you started off so scummy that hasn't wore away yet. Sure the election campaign has gotten some people to forget, but I keep a list  Youngminii - another one who made such a scummy post On October 29 2010 14:55 youngminii wrote: I buy fishball's story. I don't buy bum's. we should look at fish more carefully if YM flips red. Or YM is in the circle... all the other lurkers - *gets out my list ... f*ck Does anyone feel like compiling a list of postcounts so far so that we can get all the lurkers to contribute / reveal themselves? I hope I didn't just miss another 5-10 pages of campaign smearing while typing this.... | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On October 30 2010 18:15 orgolove wrote: DoctorHelvetica's Candidacy: Orgoloves "reality" Just step back, and take a look. Forget all personal feelings, and just look at the facts. We are trying to vote for a mayor of the town. The chosen will:
Night kill invincibility is not a huge concern for a mafia, the first two powers are the ones we are really concerned with. Invincibility to night kills, however, is something the mafia really worry about since having a townie it in it, much less a mostly confirmed one is a disaster. For them. It is not a decision to be made lightly. If we select a mafia into the position, it would be a disaster of cosmic proportions. Conversely, if we select an important blue into the position, the town will be much closer to victory. It is hardly a disaster to elect mafia in this game. In fact there are multiple scenarios in which it could benefit the town. This isn't a point I'm trying to make against you. The true power of a mafia mayor comes not from the day 1 lynch (a mafia mayor is most likely to choose the candidate the town wants to avoid pressure/disagreement that could paint him red), but from the increased voting power at the end of the game. Mafia can control bandwagons easier and achieve LYLO faster. 2 increased voting power is an effective mafia increase of 1. A mafia mayor invites role checks and will probably be inducted into the town circle, an immense amount of pressure is placed on him. When Artanis announced that rolechecks reveal alignment even of the mayor I figured someone would drop out of the race and that person would be a nervous mafia afraid of the pressure. Since that hasn't happened I can only assume that the mafia is a very experienced/ballsy candidate (I admit I fit this bill) or someone who is losing in the polls anyway and is just going to stay in for fear of suspicion. DrH's candidacy hinges on two points.
To support his first point, he revealed that his role is "Mr Sticky," a role that allows him to "poke" someone as his night action. If his claim is correct, he will then know if the target has Murrayitis. Not Mr Sticky, but yes this is true. To make the mechanics as clear as possible. I poke someone at night. If the person DOES NOT have murrayitis they receive a poke and are told "You have been poked by DoctorHelvetica" If the person DOES have murrayitis they receive no message and I know they have murrayitis. Remember the mechanic of Murrayitis: So let me reiterate. According to his own descriptions, DrH can check ONE person a night to see if he has Murrayitis. Murrayitis isn't a disease that kills immediately. Rather than acting on a timer, it requires the mafia to go through and infect more than half the town. If the mafia managed to infect over 20 townies, then the game's probably already over. You decide - is the ability to check what is essentially second priority on ONE person ONE night, in a 40 person game, so important that it requires the protection afforded to a mayor? Next, to support his second point, he continued from his roleclaim and declared that by "poking" someone the first night and having the target confirm the event, he will definitely be shown as a blue. Considering the number of unknowns in this game, there are so many potential traps in here that we can't possibly trust this. And apparently I'm not the only one to pick up on it. Just to name a few: Thus, not only is his ability, if true, unworthy of mayoral protection, we won't even be sure that he can reveal himself as a townie beyond doubt. I close this with one last thing I place under your consideration. The Town Mayor is a position of leadership. Both with his ability to immediately lynch 1 player, as well as his increased number of votes in the daily lynches, the mayor has a responsibility to take charge of the town and be a levelheaded leader who will not be guided by emotion. If we do get an experienced, well-intentioned and collected leader However, DoctorHelvetica has been increasingly emotional and defensive as questions against his alignment mounted. Because you hurt my feelings by calling me a liar when you couldn't back it up and insulting me for modding a game which I put a lot of work and my life into and that despite the mistakes I feel proud of. I think anyone could understand why that would upset me. DrH could not keep his cool when people merely questioned him during his candidacy. Can we truly trust him to lead the town as a mayor, unaffected by his personal bias? You merely questioned me? I like how you point out some of the things I said to you (which you never properly defended or refuted, because you can't) and then put it all in a big nice post of bullshit to make me look bad. This is called a chainsaw defense. Defending yourself by attacking your offender. Why don't I point out the specific parts where you called me a liar based on misunderstandings and then ducked out of the spotlight? Because I'd like to get specific with my criticism, it'd be nice if you could too. Disproved this immediately. You never responded. However note that as soon as you thought I had messed up (because you didn't read the thread properly) you were extremely quick not only to call me "out" on it, but to rub a little dirt in my face and try to make me look as shitty as possible. This is not the post of someone who is interested in finding out the truth, this is the post of someone who wants to make me look like a liar whenever he can. It's all in the word choice. Here is his response. Note how he responds carefully. Part 1: insult me 2: discredit my role 3: try to discredit me based on a hypothetical and no real reason or logic Well, as though that weren't enough this isn't the first time he tried to make me look like a liar and it was AGAIN based on a misunderstanding. That's about all I have to say. You want to criticize me based on past games and say I can't be trusted? How about the time where you took it upon yourself to organize a huge spreadsheet of "facts" that were half wrong? Or the part where you called me out on mistakes that I didn't even make. Or the two times in this thread you called me out on lies I never told. Or the times all of your "great accusations" were nonsense. Overreaction? No, I'm not overreacting. I smell bullshit and I'm calling it out. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
The assault on my platform so to speak consists only of hypothetical loopholes, WIFOM's, bad metagaming, and assaults on my character. This is not the cool deconstruction of a scum mayors lies, it's the nervous smear campaign of a mafia team that isn't winning the election and doesn't like it. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
It has been used many times as a point. "Well this is Insane Mafia, your role could change! You could be the M-Rus spreader and not even know it! Your role could have some hidden negative effect!" This is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen. Why? Because it applies to literally everyone in this game. Guess what, you have to deal with a small degree of uncertainty. We can use this empty argument to post holes in just about anything. But I thought you can 100% confirm yourself Well if my role description is indeed correct and not some INSANE lie for INSANE MAFIA, then yes I can. The person who is poked, knows I poked them, and it is confirmed to them my role of sticky. Does this 100% confirm I'm town? Well it doesn't say "The blue DoctorHelvetica has poked you" so I'm afraid not. Agian, I feel I've given town reason to believe I'm town moreso than other candidates and the attempts in this thread to poke holes in me and make me look red have been pretty bad so far. Regardless, we don't know the role list, we don't know if there are other hidden mechanics, we don't know what else could be in this game. We know what we are (or at least we think we do) and that's really the best we can do. The best I can do is act the way I feel is right based on what I know my role to be. If Artanis deceived me somehow, I feel that is a solvable problem. But don't forget, it's a bad argument and it is completely useless in the context of a game where it applies to every player. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On October 31 2010 01:30 jcarlsoniv wrote: Mmmk, Dr.H, I did feel it was necessary for you to address the constructive post that orgolove made, because it can cause for good discussion. I would, however, like the whole argument over personal attacking to stop. I got sucked into it, but I'm hoping to also aid in the end of it. I would hate to see modkills over arguments. The past is the past, and we don't want another Pandain/Bill Murray incident on our hands. God forbid we make the next town suffer from orgolove-atoma or Dr.H Disease O_o I agree, but it's something that happened and I want to make it clear what made me incensed. I think it's sort of silly for orgolove to criticize me for being emotional when he himself provoked it ...twice. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On October 31 2010 01:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I agree, but it's something that happened and I want to make it clear what made me incensed. I think it's sort of silly for orgolove to criticize me for being emotional when he himself provoked it ...twice. Yes, but what's done is done, and we can't go back and change it. So let's move forward with discussions instead of dwelling on it! =) Argument over! *looks around hoping everyone gets happy faces* | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On October 31 2010 01:52 ghrur wrote: Why do I feel ignored? T_T At this time, I would like to declare my intentions to vote for the noble candidate ghrur. | ||
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Glasse
Canada1237 Posts
On October 31 2010 01:52 ghrur wrote: Why do I feel ignored? T_T it's ok, nobody is paying attention to my ability to roleclaim and prove that i'm town if im mayor either | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On October 31 2010 01:57 kitaman27 wrote: At this time, I would like to declare my intentions to vote for the noble candidate ghrur. As much as I appreciate this, I really think I shouldn't be. I mean, I threw my name in because I feel like I'm able to keep my calm, but now that I look over it, I'm not active enough. I also really gain nothing from bodyguards as I can do this as a townie. Also, I feel that my role isn't strong enough. Instead, I really want to hear Glasse's platform once again. | ||
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Glasse
Canada1237 Posts
On October 31 2010 02:01 ghrur wrote: As much as I appreciate this, I really think I shouldn't be. I mean, I threw my name in because I feel like I'm able to keep my calm, but now that I look over it, I'm not active enough. I also really gain nothing from bodyguards as I can do this as a townie. Also, I feel that my role isn't strong enough. Instead, I really want to hear Glasse's platform once again. Lol i don't really want to be mayor i just like having fun :D Its my second mafia game, i can't be as active as others. However i can prove that i'm town easily. All depends if you want the possibility of a mafia mayor or not :O | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On October 31 2010 02:01 ghrur wrote: As much as I appreciate this, I really think I shouldn't be. I mean, I threw my name in because I feel like I'm able to keep my calm, but now that I look over it, I'm not active enough. I also really gain nothing from bodyguards as I can do this as a townie. Also, I feel that my role isn't strong enough. Instead, I really want to hear Glasse's platform once again. At this time, I would like to withdraw my support for the unworthy candidate ghrur. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On October 31 2010 02:02 Glasse wrote: Lol i don't really want to be mayor i just like having fun :D Its my second mafia game, i can't be as active as others. However i can prove that i'm town easily. All depends if you want the possibility of a mafia mayor or not :O I think we would all like to eliminate the possibility of a mafia mayor. We just want to know who has the best "way" to prove it with as little reasonable loop holes as possible. And thanks Kita, lol. xD | ||
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Glasse
Canada1237 Posts
On October 31 2010 02:19 ghrur wrote: I think we would all like to eliminate the possibility of a mafia mayor. We just want to know who has the best "way" to prove it with as little reasonable loop holes as possible. And thanks Kita, lol. xD well i'm fairly sure i have the best way. i could prove it on day 2 :S | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On October 31 2010 02:19 ghrur wrote: I think we would all like to eliminate the possibility of a mafia mayor. We just want to know who has the best "way" to prove it with as little reasonable loop holes as possible. And thanks Kita, lol. xD Well, it's not just about being able to give people security in your claim. Being Mayor is also a position of power and leadership, as orgo said. So we can't just vote on who can role claim and convince the town that they are town, I'm sure many of people could do this. We need an experienced player who will aid the town with a plan and with their abilities. Don't get me wrong though, I definitely want to avoid a Scum-Mayor as much as possible (obviously). | ||
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Node
United States2159 Posts
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if only because it gives the reds such a gigantic advantage. The only ways I can think of to beat this scenario are very WIFOM.
