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On July 23 2010 14:50 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 14:48 chaoser wrote:
I do however know that a Vigi hit SOMEONE tonight. That Vigi should claim since they are regular townie now and say who they hit and why. Mafia doesn't gain anything from them claiming, I think. Also, if it's a false claim, real Vigi can always claim as well and then we have a 1 v 1. Either way, one mafia is dying if they fake claim. I'm also going to go to sleep but I feel I have enough evidence to compile a case against someone by tomorrow morning There's no way of us knowing whether or not the claim is true or false. There may or may not be one or two Vigis and even then 2 scum can step up and counter claim.
I actually disagree here. If 2 scum step up and counterclaim it exposes them in the open under public scrutiny. We can lynch the first claimant (the one who fired the shot) and see if he told the truth. Then we can have the other two shoot each other during the night with their vigi shots. If neither of them dies then we know they're both lying.
Also, it seems like an incredibly BAD idea for a townie to claim vigi at all, period.
What will be more likely is that the vigi will claim, no one will contest and the mafia will take out the vigi during the night to prevent any new information from being introduced into the game.
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Hmm interesting. So BC is either a Veteran or was protected by the remaining medic (orr Medics can protect the night they're killed, and Roffles protected BC). Is that last one even possible?
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On July 23 2010 15:29 SiNiquity wrote:
Hmm interesting. So BC is either a Veteran or was protected by the remaining medic (orr Medics can protect the night they're killed, and Roffles protected BC). Is that last one even possible?
i would assume it is but this is a very important question.
BM is that possible?
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On July 23 2010 15:29 SiNiquity wrote:
Hmm interesting. So BC is either a Veteran or was protected by the remaining medic (orr Medics can protect the night they're killed, and Roffles protected BC). Is that last one even possible?
Think so. Problem is that Roffles isn't around to contest it.
But, as I said, if the vigi stepped up and said something it could drastically drop down BC's chances of being mafia, if we confirmed the vig by lynch. I realize this would be super-unhappy-times for the vig. =[
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On July 23 2010 15:32 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 15:29 SiNiquity wrote:
Hmm interesting. So BC is either a Veteran or was protected by the remaining medic (orr Medics can protect the night they're killed, and Roffles protected BC). Is that last one even possible? i would assume it is but this is a very important question. BM is that possible?
I think all night actions are resolved at the same time. I think there have been instances where it's happened in the past.
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On July 23 2010 15:27 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 14:50 youngminii wrote:On July 23 2010 14:48 chaoser wrote:
I do however know that a Vigi hit SOMEONE tonight. That Vigi should claim since they are regular townie now and say who they hit and why. Mafia doesn't gain anything from them claiming, I think. Also, if it's a false claim, real Vigi can always claim as well and then we have a 1 v 1. Either way, one mafia is dying if they fake claim. I'm also going to go to sleep but I feel I have enough evidence to compile a case against someone by tomorrow morning There's no way of us knowing whether or not the claim is true or false. There may or may not be one or two Vigis and even then 2 scum can step up and counter claim. I actually disagree here. If 2 scum step up and counterclaim it exposes them in the open under public scrutiny. We can lynch the first claimant (the one who fired the shot) and see if he told the truth. Then we can have the other two shoot each other during the night with their vigi shots. If neither of them dies then we know they're both lying. Also, it seems like an incredibly BAD idea for a townie to claim vigi at all, period. What will be more likely is that the vigi will claim, no one will contest and the mafia will take out the vigi during the night to prevent any new information from being introduced into the game.
If BC is lying, then there were only 2 hits last night. If there were only 2 hits last night, then no Vigilante fired a shot (unless Mafia stacked, but this seems highly unlikely). Therefore when we call for a Vigilante to claim, some Mafia could claim it worry-free, since no one else could claim it. Worse yet, this Mafia member that claimed could be Godfather and have picked the Vigilante role, so there's no way to know there either (or BC is GF under the guise of a Veteran).
Thus both the claiming Vigilante and BC would need to be checked. If neither were Mafia, only then would we know for sure.
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On July 23 2010 15:36 SiNiquity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 15:27 d3_crescentia wrote:On July 23 2010 14:50 youngminii wrote:On July 23 2010 14:48 chaoser wrote:
I do however know that a Vigi hit SOMEONE tonight. That Vigi should claim since they are regular townie now and say who they hit and why. Mafia doesn't gain anything from them claiming, I think. Also, if it's a false claim, real Vigi can always claim as well and then we have a 1 v 1. Either way, one mafia is dying if they fake claim. I'm also going to go to sleep but I feel I have enough evidence to compile a case against someone by tomorrow morning There's no way of us knowing whether or not the claim is true or false. There may or may not be one or two Vigis and even then 2 scum can step up and counter claim. I actually disagree here. If 2 scum step up and counterclaim it exposes them in the open under public scrutiny. We can lynch the first claimant (the one who fired the shot) and see if he told the truth. Then we can have the other two shoot each other during the night with their vigi shots. If neither of them dies then we know they're both lying. Also, it seems like an incredibly BAD idea for a townie to claim vigi at all, period. What will be more likely is that the vigi will claim, no one will contest and the mafia will take out the vigi during the night to prevent any new information from being introduced into the game. If BC is lying, then there were only 2 hits last night. If there were only 2 hits last night, then no Vigilante fired a shot (unless Mafia stacked, but this seems highly unlikely). Therefore when we call for a Vigilante to claim, some Mafia could claim it worry-free, since no one else could claim it. Worse yet, this Mafia member that claimed could be Godfather and have picked the Vigilante role, so there's no way to know there either (or BC is GF under the guise of a Veteran). Thus both the claiming Vigilante and BC would need to be checked. If neither were Mafia, only then would we know for sure.
I couldn't sleep knowing stuff was going down =]. Even from what you say, if BC IS lying and someone lies with him and claims Vigi, even if they are GF and picked vigi as role, we just check BC. If he flips red, the person who claimed Vigi is in the shithole and we get a 2 for 1. Aside from that, I will post about why it is 100% in our favor for Vigi to claim.
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On July 23 2010 15:32 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 15:29 SiNiquity wrote:
Hmm interesting. So BC is either a Veteran or was protected by the remaining medic (orr Medics can protect the night they're killed, and Roffles protected BC). Is that last one even possible? Think so. Problem is that Roffles isn't around to contest it. But, as I said, if the vigi stepped up and said something it could drastically drop down BC's chances of being mafia, if we confirmed the vig by lynch. I realize this would be super-unhappy-times for the vig. =[
Why would it be bad for a vigilante who's already used their night hit to claim? They're essentially a townie at this point.. I guess it gives Mafia a little bit of info about who's who (so they know not to waste a hit on that player if they're blue-hunting). But isn't this outweighed by the benefit of knowing BC's claim for sure (again after DT checks).
It seems like a bold move for Mafia to fake-claim the vigilante hit, as doing so means they're feeding 2 members to a town that hasn't caught a single one yet (tho hopefully today'll be different).
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On July 23 2010 15:45 SiNiquity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 15:32 d3_crescentia wrote:On July 23 2010 15:29 SiNiquity wrote:
Hmm interesting. So BC is either a Veteran or was protected by the remaining medic (orr Medics can protect the night they're killed, and Roffles protected BC). Is that last one even possible? Think so. Problem is that Roffles isn't around to contest it. But, as I said, if the vigi stepped up and said something it could drastically drop down BC's chances of being mafia, if we confirmed the vig by lynch. I realize this would be super-unhappy-times for the vig. =[ Why would it be bad for a vigilante who's already used their night hit to claim? They're essentially a townie at this point.. I guess it gives Mafia a little bit of info about who's who (so they know not to waste a hit on that player if they're blue-hunting). But isn't this outweighed by the benefit of knowing BC's claim for sure (again after DT checks). It seems like a bold move for Mafia to fake-claim the vigilante hit, as doing so means they're feeding 2 members to a town that hasn't caught a single one yet (tho hopefully today'll be different).
well the only negative side effect would be the mafia knows he's exactly a townie
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To let all of you who are bringing up possibilities, etc...
I was medic protected last night. I am sincerely hoping it wasn't roffles but as of the moment I have no clue who saved me.
I think everyone has to take a step back and stop putting all their faith into BC's claim. In the game I played previously (Godfather mafia) I was DT and I claimed because I had found the Godfather. However, people were still wary of my claim and if I was in fact, scum false claiming then scum would have won the game 100%.
You have to take in the whole picture and think about the possibility that BC is false claiming. He could just be claiming as it'll give him instant 'credibility'. He could be claiming to derail the flame war that happened between me, infundiblusdcxum and chaoser (which my paranoid little self is tending to learn towards). He could be claiming to just create confusion within the town. He could be claiming because mafia have this awesome scheme planned for the game ahead of us. Or his claim can be real.
Just don't forget the possibility of his claim being fake. Don't rush to form any PM trust circles with him. There's quite a chance he's Godfather and that he chose Vet from the start if he's going to make such a bold false claim.[/QUOTE]
I am actually happy you posted this. The more people discuss this properly the better position we are in.
The flame wars I was referring to was more the combination of everything that happened day 2, combined with what was happening over the night period. The list of people who are quickly jumping the gun and finger pointing without taking the time to really analyze people has led to far too much chaos at the moment and we have to take things slower. Every game has its heated debates, but this has gotten to the point of just ugh.
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On July 23 2010 15:36 SiNiquity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 15:27 d3_crescentia wrote:On July 23 2010 14:50 youngminii wrote:On July 23 2010 14:48 chaoser wrote:
I do however know that a Vigi hit SOMEONE tonight. That Vigi should claim since they are regular townie now and say who they hit and why. Mafia doesn't gain anything from them claiming, I think. Also, if it's a false claim, real Vigi can always claim as well and then we have a 1 v 1. Either way, one mafia is dying if they fake claim. I'm also going to go to sleep but I feel I have enough evidence to compile a case against someone by tomorrow morning There's no way of us knowing whether or not the claim is true or false. There may or may not be one or two Vigis and even then 2 scum can step up and counter claim. I actually disagree here. If 2 scum step up and counterclaim it exposes them in the open under public scrutiny. We can lynch the first claimant (the one who fired the shot) and see if he told the truth. Then we can have the other two shoot each other during the night with their vigi shots. If neither of them dies then we know they're both lying. Also, it seems like an incredibly BAD idea for a townie to claim vigi at all, period. What will be more likely is that the vigi will claim, no one will contest and the mafia will take out the vigi during the night to prevent any new information from being introduced into the game. If BC is lying, then there were only 2 hits last night. If there were only 2 hits last night, then no Vigilante fired a shot (unless Mafia stacked, but this seems highly unlikely). Therefore when we call for a Vigilante to claim, some Mafia could claim it worry-free, since no one else could claim it. Worse yet, this Mafia member that claimed could be Godfather and have picked the Vigilante role, so there's no way to know there either (or BC is GF under the guise of a Veteran). Thus both the claiming Vigilante and BC would need to be checked. If neither were Mafia, only then would we know for sure.
We can't afford to check these people until the bomber is dead, at least by DT - because the Mafia would know we'd be checking them and then just get a two-fer. And by stepping forward it becomes difficult for the Medic to protect-confirm as the Mafia wouldn't want to target them anymore.
It's possible to confirm them by lynching the vigi (depending on who he shot at and a few other factors). Then there won't be any mafia incentive to claim the vigi role.
It's not the most optimal plan, so I'd really appreciate some input for a better alternative.
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ebwop
On July 23 2010 14:56 youngminii wrote:
I think everyone has to take a step back and stop putting all their faith into BC's claim. In the game I played previously (Godfather mafia) I was DT and I claimed because I had found the Godfather. However, people were still wary of my claim and if I was in fact, scum false claiming then scum would have won the game 100%.
You have to take in the whole picture and think about the possibility that BC is false claiming. He could just be claiming as it'll give him instant 'credibility'. He could be claiming to derail the flame war that happened between me, infundiblusdcxum and chaoser (which my paranoid little self is tending to learn towards). He could be claiming to just create confusion within the town. He could be claiming because mafia have this awesome scheme planned for the game ahead of us. Or his claim can be real.
Just don't forget the possibility of his claim being fake. Don't rush to form any PM trust circles with him. There's quite a chance he's Godfather and that he chose Vet from the start if he's going to make such a bold false claim.
is the large block of text i was attempting to quote.
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Right. But there's .. *double checks BM's post* 12 townies, 7 blues remaining. So the Vigi revealing gives the Mafia a 6/18 (33.33%) chance instead of 6/19 (31.58%) chance for hitting a "real blue."
But there's gotta be some other catch I'm missing. Or maybe I'm just wary of people roleclaiming in general which is why I'm getting that "vibe" from this plan.
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err my last post was replying to:
On July 23 2010 15:47 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 15:45 SiNiquity wrote:On July 23 2010 15:32 d3_crescentia wrote:On July 23 2010 15:29 SiNiquity wrote:
Hmm interesting. So BC is either a Veteran or was protected by the remaining medic (orr Medics can protect the night they're killed, and Roffles protected BC). Is that last one even possible? Think so. Problem is that Roffles isn't around to contest it. But, as I said, if the vigi stepped up and said something it could drastically drop down BC's chances of being mafia, if we confirmed the vig by lynch. I realize this would be super-unhappy-times for the vig. =[ Why would it be bad for a vigilante who's already used their night hit to claim? They're essentially a townie at this point.. I guess it gives Mafia a little bit of info about who's who (so they know not to waste a hit on that player if they're blue-hunting). But isn't this outweighed by the benefit of knowing BC's claim for sure (again after DT checks). It seems like a bold move for Mafia to fake-claim the vigilante hit, as doing so means they're feeding 2 members to a town that hasn't caught a single one yet (tho hopefully today'll be different). well the only negative side effect would be the mafia knows he's exactly a townie
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Vigi should 100% claim. Let's first look at the facts:
1) Two real hits went down last night, one on Roffles, one on Jayme
2) BC says he got hit
3) The only way that can happen is through Vigi
Two cases can happen:
BC is lying
BC is telling the truth
In that first case, the only way it would work is if a fake vigi claims. If no real vigi claims then we know BC is 100% lying. If a fake vigi does claim,,then both BC and Vigi who claims are both liars, they are now 100% linked to each other. Now, they both can't be GF and in this situation, the vigi will be GF because, like you said, he will be checked next night. So we check BC instead. If he's red, both go down. Even in the case BC is GF, they have no idea who we're going to check, it's a 50/50 risk for them that we will find out. That's not a risk they probably want to take. The final reason mafia wouldn't do this is because I don't care about using the vigi as a confirmed townie, I just want information on what happened like night, which two the mafia actually hit, and which one was hit by vigi.
Now, on to the BC tells truth. Well in that case, a fake vigi can claim first or a real one can. If the real one does first, then that's that. If the fake one does, the real one can just claim and there will be a 1 v 1. Even if the real one claims first and then a fake one claims, we're still left with a 1v1 and a dead mafia sooner or later.
for all other counter claims. people ready stated it:
There's no way of us knowing whether or not the claim is true or false. There may or may not be one or two Vigis and even then 2 scum can step up and counter claim.
I actually disagree here. If 2 scum step up and counterclaim it exposes them in the open under public scrutiny. We can lynch the first claimant (the one who fired the shot) and see if he told the truth. Then we can have the other two shoot each other during the night with their vigi shots. If neither of them dies then we know they're both lying.
I actually do feel like I left something out so if anyone else can think of it, please help, I'm suppose to be asleep right now, if my parents catch me up i'm fucked. I'll write more tomorrow
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On July 23 2010 15:51 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 15:36 SiNiquity wrote:On July 23 2010 15:27 d3_crescentia wrote:On July 23 2010 14:50 youngminii wrote:On July 23 2010 14:48 chaoser wrote:
I do however know that a Vigi hit SOMEONE tonight. That Vigi should claim since they are regular townie now and say who they hit and why. Mafia doesn't gain anything from them claiming, I think. Also, if it's a false claim, real Vigi can always claim as well and then we have a 1 v 1. Either way, one mafia is dying if they fake claim. I'm also going to go to sleep but I feel I have enough evidence to compile a case against someone by tomorrow morning There's no way of us knowing whether or not the claim is true or false. There may or may not be one or two Vigis and even then 2 scum can step up and counter claim. I actually disagree here. If 2 scum step up and counterclaim it exposes them in the open under public scrutiny. We can lynch the first claimant (the one who fired the shot) and see if he told the truth. Then we can have the other two shoot each other during the night with their vigi shots. If neither of them dies then we know they're both lying. Also, it seems like an incredibly BAD idea for a townie to claim vigi at all, period. What will be more likely is that the vigi will claim, no one will contest and the mafia will take out the vigi during the night to prevent any new information from being introduced into the game. If BC is lying, then there were only 2 hits last night. If there were only 2 hits last night, then no Vigilante fired a shot (unless Mafia stacked, but this seems highly unlikely). Therefore when we call for a Vigilante to claim, some Mafia could claim it worry-free, since no one else could claim it. Worse yet, this Mafia member that claimed could be Godfather and have picked the Vigilante role, so there's no way to know there either (or BC is GF under the guise of a Veteran). Thus both the claiming Vigilante and BC would need to be checked. If neither were Mafia, only then would we know for sure. We can't afford to check these people until the bomber is dead, at least by DT - because the Mafia would know we'd be checking them and then just get a two-fer. And by stepping forward it becomes difficult for the Medic to protect-confirm as the Mafia wouldn't want to target them anymore. It's possible to confirm them by lynching the vigi (depending on who he shot at and a few other factors). Then there won't be any mafia incentive to claim the vigi role. It's not the most optimal plan, so I'd really appreciate some input for a better alternative.
As a general note as something I recommended yesterday.
If a dt uses a rng to check someone where the rng in this case could be used twice, once for player once for day to use it. A dt could safely check you for surviving a hit day 2, and me day 3. IT gives the dt options to safely check without the fear of the bomber. The remaining medic should only claim to someone he protected once he knows for sure it was a mafia hit he blocked and not a vig one.
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Massive post incoming. Haven't read thread past this post:
On July 23 2010 15:29 SiNiquity wrote:
Hmm interesting. So BC is either a Veteran or was protected by the remaining medic (orr Medics can protect the night they're killed, and Roffles protected BC). Is that last one even possible?
But it would be nice to have it answered as well. Generally, Medics can protect the night they die and I should assume no reason it is changed now. In my upcoming post, it is thus addressed as such.
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The main reason for them claiming right now is so we have exact information on what happened last night. We can use them later if it turns out true. If a vigi has used a hit and we know them 100% to be vigi, they should always claim because then we have a 100% confirmed townie
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On July 23 2010 15:57 chaoser wrote:
The main reason for them claiming right now is so we have exact information on what happened last night. We can use them later if it turns out true. If a vigi has used a hit and we know them 100% to be vigi, they should always claim because then we have a 100% confirmed townie
Until we lynch them, which I am assuming we would do according to d3. -.-
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good night town. I still got a case to compile tomorrow so i'll see you then.
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EPT
