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This is what personal banlists are for. It should NOT be a TL Mafia ban
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woah... who said anything about a TL ban?
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I accept GM's decision. Cool!
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On March 01 2012 09:30 Mattchew wrote:
woah... who said anything about a TL ban?
I suspect they mean TL [Mafia forum] ban, which I guess you are arguing for. If not you can always try to ask the host of the game you join into excluding sinani from the sign-up list. I'm siding with the banlings here, the argument he ruins the game because they are all balanced around the notion that each player will play to their win con is useless because I could essentially apply the argument to anyone who played poorly. There's a reason why there is a joke that bad players actually break the above 'rule' by actively participating. It's entirely subjective, and therefore up to discretion of the individual hosts.
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On March 01 2012 09:20 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 09:07 Qatol wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2012 08:57 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 08:30 GMarshal wrote:On March 01 2012 08:06 Curu wrote:
Yeah I tried in the middle of a game we were playing. All I got was him trolling even harder. Stuff like "u mad bro?" and other crap along those lines.
It's reached a breaking point with him.
Well let's see what others think. I try to be unbiased but I realize that might not be possible with how much he pissed me off in Ace's game where he refused to do anything but post nonsense. I didn't want to cause a big ruckus afterwards with that but to see he's still doing the exact same thing several months later I personally think he deserves some form of punishment. You can't do it in the middle of a game, you have to address it post or pre-game during a game behaving like that if he is unsure of your alignment is fair game, outside the game you are actually addressing an issue. Frankly, sinani is not the only player who "only posts nonsense", and posting nonsense isn't bannable . The purpose of the banlist is these two things 1.) Bar inactive players from playing. Inactivity is defined as posting X amount of times per cycle (X is defined by the host) and voting every cycle. 2.) Punish people who break the rules of the game, as stated in the OP, as those rules are there to ensure both fairness and fun for everyone. The point of the "Play to win" clause is to have a catchall for things that clearly break the spirit of the game or sabotage it (Claiming mafia day 1, outing yourself a sk for giggles, etc), but aren't spelled out Can you honestly say sinani falls into either category? Has he broken any rules or broken the inactivity line? Has he violated the spirit of any of the rules, even? Seriously, sit down and have a chat with him, while neither of you are in the same game, and explain to him, nicely that you think he is really ruining games for you and others, then in a couple games, if it persists, PM me and I'll have a chat with him, the banlist is not here to punish players based on some unmeasured standard of effort. If you'd rather I talked with him, let me know. EDIT: I think this comes off as a little more aggressive than it should, I'm not in the least bit angry, I'm happy to keep discussing it even, its just that people seem to misunderstand what the banlist is for. EDIT2: When the hell did I hit 6k? So when he ruins games with his purposeful bad play, thats not bannable? First of all, how do you know he is intentionally playing poorly? Can you prove that he's doing it on purpose? If you can't, just say he's playing poorly. Secondly, how does him playing poorly ruin the game? Can the game simply not go on after he is lynched? Does he completely ruin the game for the other players? Otherwise, just learn to pick up the slack. There are stronger players and weaker players in games. The stronger players have to learn to compensate for the weaker players. And if they can't, that's part of the game too. You can't ban someone just because they don't play well as long as they're trying to play well. Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 09:01 GMarshal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2012 08:57 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 08:30 GMarshal wrote:On March 01 2012 08:06 Curu wrote:
Yeah I tried in the middle of a game we were playing. All I got was him trolling even harder. Stuff like "u mad bro?" and other crap along those lines.
It's reached a breaking point with him.
Well let's see what others think. I try to be unbiased but I realize that might not be possible with how much he pissed me off in Ace's game where he refused to do anything but post nonsense. I didn't want to cause a big ruckus afterwards with that but to see he's still doing the exact same thing several months later I personally think he deserves some form of punishment. You can't do it in the middle of a game, you have to address it post or pre-game during a game behaving like that if he is unsure of your alignment is fair game, outside the game you are actually addressing an issue. Frankly, sinani is not the only player who "only posts nonsense", and posting nonsense isn't bannable . The purpose of the banlist is these two things 1.) Bar inactive players from playing. Inactivity is defined as posting X amount of times per cycle (X is defined by the host) and voting every cycle. 2.) Punish people who break the rules of the game, as stated in the OP, as those rules are there to ensure both fairness and fun for everyone. The point of the "Play to win" clause is to have a catchall for things that clearly break the spirit of the game or sabotage it (Claiming mafia day 1, outing yourself a sk for giggles, etc), but aren't spelled out Can you honestly say sinani falls into either category? Has he broken any rules or broken the inactivity line? Has he violated the spirit of any of the rules, even? Seriously, sit down and have a chat with him, while neither of you are in the same game, and explain to him, nicely that you think he is really ruining games for you and others, then in a couple games, if it persists, PM me and I'll have a chat with him, the banlist is not here to punish players based on some unmeasured standard of effort. If you'd rather I talked with him, let me know. EDIT: I think this comes off as a little more aggressive than it should, I'm not in the least bit angry, I'm happy to keep discussing it even, its just that people seem to misunderstand what the banlist is for. EDIT2: When the hell did I hit 6k? So when he ruins games with his purposeful bad play, thats not bannable? Can you prove he is playing purposefully badly, and isn't just bad and this is the best he can do? Did he in fact "ruin" a game, to the point where it either became unplayabe, caused ragequits or resulted in a modkill? Because if we are banning people for playing poorly, then a lot of people are going to be facing bans. Playing poorly is not bannable. You both say similar things and I wasn't exactly speaking on just this specific instance (mostly cause I don't want to call only 1 person, who has been here longer than I, out). I think curu makes the argument that it is intentional and consistent. My argument is more along the lines that playing with no effort (barely avoiding modkills) and posting literally nothing of value, should be bannable. He ruins the game because they are all balanced around the notion that each player will play to their win con.. if he is getting mislynched for no reason other than because he did next to nothing, this is playing against his win condition. A lot of people are willing to put a ton of efforts into this game, only to be at a disadvantage purely because a player like this is on your team
I think we both are speaking on this instance because we should be thinking about the facts in front of us when making policy, otherwise everything is speculation.
There isn't a game we play here that is so broken that if you have one weak player one side, the game suddenly becomes imbalanced. In fact, most games are specifically balanced to at least a certain extent by the host to avoid a TL Mafia V situation. All you can ask for is to be within a range where if you play well, you will probably win. It certainly isn't fair to give mafia bans just because someone doesn't meet your standards for skill level. He is still playing towards his win condition, just in his own way.
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On March 01 2012 09:01 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 08:57 Mattchew wrote:On March 01 2012 08:30 GMarshal wrote:On March 01 2012 08:06 Curu wrote:
Yeah I tried in the middle of a game we were playing. All I got was him trolling even harder. Stuff like "u mad bro?" and other crap along those lines.
It's reached a breaking point with him.
Well let's see what others think. I try to be unbiased but I realize that might not be possible with how much he pissed me off in Ace's game where he refused to do anything but post nonsense. I didn't want to cause a big ruckus afterwards with that but to see he's still doing the exact same thing several months later I personally think he deserves some form of punishment. You can't do it in the middle of a game, you have to address it post or pre-game during a game behaving like that if he is unsure of your alignment is fair game, outside the game you are actually addressing an issue. Frankly, sinani is not the only player who "only posts nonsense", and posting nonsense isn't bannable . The purpose of the banlist is these two things 1.) Bar inactive players from playing. Inactivity is defined as posting X amount of times per cycle (X is defined by the host) and voting every cycle. 2.) Punish people who break the rules of the game, as stated in the OP, as those rules are there to ensure both fairness and fun for everyone. The point of the "Play to win" clause is to have a catchall for things that clearly break the spirit of the game or sabotage it (Claiming mafia day 1, outing yourself a sk for giggles, etc), but aren't spelled out Can you honestly say sinani falls into either category? Has he broken any rules or broken the inactivity line? Has he violated the spirit of any of the rules, even? Seriously, sit down and have a chat with him, while neither of you are in the same game, and explain to him, nicely that you think he is really ruining games for you and others, then in a couple games, if it persists, PM me and I'll have a chat with him, the banlist is not here to punish players based on some unmeasured standard of effort. If you'd rather I talked with him, let me know. EDIT: I think this comes off as a little more aggressive than it should, I'm not in the least bit angry, I'm happy to keep discussing it even, its just that people seem to misunderstand what the banlist is for. EDIT2: When the hell did I hit 6k? So when he ruins games with his purposeful bad play, thats not bannable? Can you prove he is playing purposefully badly, and isn't just bad and this is the best he can do? Did he in fact "ruin" a game, to the point where it either became unplayabe, caused ragequits or resulted in a modkill? Because if we are banning people for playing poorly, then a lot of people are going to be facing bans. Playing poorly is not bannable.
I'll link again his filter in the werewolves game [here]
In particular:
On February 16 2012 10:10 sinani206 wrote:
typical game with me in it:
i die day one.
town wastes a lynch.
then town loses.
also, kenpachi is right over the last few pages about a lot of stuff
and also i hate bandwagons. a lot.
He was a VT who got lynched day 1, even after specifically stating this. How can someone acknowledge that they play badly, do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it, and not get banned, is beyond me.
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It was a PM game and he specifically offered the opportunity to contact him over skype,aim,gtalk. It was a bad lynch pushed by scum, new players and people otherwise unfamiliar with his play. While I think sinani should put more effort into his play and shouldn't just give up whenever he inevitably gets wagoned (by other bad townies), there is no reason to ban him for it. Even though he doesn't post much and the posts are generally devoid of any real content, I think they contain enough evidence to determine his alignment. Apparently he still enjoys playing mafia and I'm actually a bit impressed by the fact he keeps playing despite receiving a lot of hate.
The rule about playing to win should be restricted to cases where a player specifically and knowingly acts in a manner that is not compatible with his win con.
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you guys trying to get each other banned for trivial shit all the time really blows my mind. at this point this is honestly one of the most unfriendly and uptight communitys I have ever come across on the internet. Your supposed to be supporting and helping each other grow and learn and above all else having FUN. This shit is just disapointing. yall should be ashamed.
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@CC I think the arguments presented against banning him are solid enough, I'm sorry for bringing this up.
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@coag I think the majority sees that he shouldnt be banned at all, I don't think people are being all that unfriendly/uptight.
my 2c: When sinani was on my scum team in NMMI, his lurkiness/posting was beneficial to my team. If prplhz hadn't been a vig then no one would've suspected him red, laughably enough. Sinani = gud in my book
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First of all, I'm going to apologize to sinani206, I requested the ban out of frustration with his play, but it's no reason to belittle him like that. I also don't like all the other people jumping his bandwagon. It was a complaint from me, and GM dealt with it in a very reasonable manner.
On March 01 2012 18:11 Coagulation wrote:
you guys trying to get each other banned for trivial shit all the time really blows my mind. at this point this is honestly one of the most unfriendly and uptight communitys I have ever come across on the internet. Your supposed to be supporting and helping each other grow and learn and above all else having FUN. This shit is just disapointing. yall should be ashamed.
The important part here is having FUN coagulation. The difference stems from people's definition for fun. I should not have tried to get sinani206 banned, but it's still okay that I have a problem with the way he plays the game.
I also have a problem with how you play the game, I can say that from the few games I've played with you it's been a completely dissatisfying experience. To me, it's not fun having people in the game that just don't care about the outcome.
So are you allowed to ruin my fun in order to experience your fun? Not that I can actually believe someone like sinani actually had fun that game.
I dare say most of the TL Mafia subforum likes the games to be engaging and active. If everyone played like some people who think they're entitled to playing however the fuck they want, this entire endeavor would be pointless. In addition, I don't like the fact that you shit so much over a community ton of people are putting in hard work to create.
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you apologize for trying to ban him over trivial shit and then in the same breath you turn around and call me the bad guy for pointing out how its absurd the way you guys are trying to ban each other over trivial shit all the time.
mhmmm....
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On March 01 2012 18:11 Coagulation wrote:
you guys trying to get each other banned for trivial shit all the time really blows my mind. at this point this is honestly one of the most unfriendly and uptight communitys I have ever come across on the internet. Your supposed to be supporting and helping each other grow and learn and above all else having FUN. This shit is just disapointing. yall should be ashamed.
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On March 01 2012 21:47 Coagulation wrote:
you apologize for trying to ban him over trivial shit and then in the same breath you turn around and call me the bad guy for pointing out how its absurd the way you guys are trying to ban each other over trivial shit all the time.
mhmmm....
I made a mistake and apologized for it, I talked to GM, it's pretty clear that I wasn't drawing a line between playing badly and playing to lose, I was categorizing them as one and the same thing. That's wrong of me, and I'm sorry.
Will you apologize for repeatedly antagonizing the community?
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I will apologize for offending you about it and will admit that I am sometimes very critical of TLmafia and apologize for being sometimes too harsh with the way I present my opinions.
Im also glad to see things are changing.
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Cool man.
And yeah, I understand there may be some lingering issues from the past, to me it seems the protactinium thing is a particularly touchy subject (and that's before my time here).
But you have to understand it's very discouraging for newer players to read you constantly attacking a structure we're actively working to improve. I mean, it's not perfect, something as trivial as me fucking up and asking for a ban against sinani when I shouldn't have, but don't you think it's an indicator of how things are getting better that the illogical ban I requested got shut down very fast?
You're raining on my parade man!
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Well my apologies for my tirade too. I still feel that way about him but as iGrok correctly pointed out that's a personal banlist thing not a TL Mafia banlist one.
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On March 02 2012 00:47 Curu wrote:
Well my apologies for my tirade too. I still feel that way about him but as iGrok correctly pointed out that's a personal banlist thing not a TL Mafia banlist one.
Personal banlists are ugly as heck.
I think every host using it should be banned from hosting Normal games.
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I have an idea. If you get banned, instead of having to sit out your ban, you are instead required to stream yourself playing "I want to be the Guy The movie: The game" for a set number of hours depending on your ban.
thoughts?
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
sinani was awesome in XXXIX! <3
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EPT
