EPT...
Don't give Chezinu any ideas!
TL Mafia Ban List - Page 116
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
... Don't give Chezinu any ideas! | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
11. Breadcrumbing the specific phrasing of your role PM. Do not compare the phrasing in your role PM to prove your alignment. You can claim the abilities you have, but you can't use the specific phrasing of your role PM. So you can still compare abilities, you can still roleclaim. You just cannot say "my role PM said 'you may check roles,' does yours?" Similarly, comparing the order of your abilities is out of bounds. It's the intent that matters, not how much you tried to compare. The point is don't try and figure out alignment by comparing your role PMs. I don't see a problem with warning people or banning them for it if that is obviously what they were trying to do. | ||
|
iGrok
United States5142 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
iGrok
United States5142 Posts
If you are a host, you should provide role pms or write differently formatted role pms, or accept that this is a good tactic to use. Alternatively, TLMafia can come up with a common (shared) role pm list, similar to IRC mafia. While yes, it is more work for the hosts, maybe that will make people think twice before hosting. We've got more than enough games. Personally, IMO every game should have a finalized setup before asking to be added to the queue. As someone who hosts more than I play, I think hosts get off too easy. I don't think blaming the players exclusively helps anything either, but everyone seems content to just say "don't abuse game mechanics" without considering that maybe the game mechanics shouldn't be abusable to begin with | ||
|
vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
Consider this a mistake of culture and not of understanding of rules. It will be beyond easy to avoid this in the future. Also I was careful to basically ask things that could be reduced to, since you claim the same role as I and I mentioned I can or can not do certain things do you have the same things going on. The only time specific wording came into play was annul mentioned a specific option that he used. I acted on that but I personally think thats not at fault. I think the issue was more when annul claimed and I quickly claimed that the jack role could cop people and then asked annul if he had any issue with things I posted about our night abilities. Seeing as I was thinking that Jack was a very specific role I found it valid to ask annul if he had a problem with what I was claiming. I never quoted my PM. I never compared PMs. I asked someone that claimed a same name role if they thought there was any issue with what I had claimed. I was trying to test his claim not his align. Does that make it easier to understand that series of events? To be clear I dont mind the warning and I am not really disputting it, I am just offering an insight into the mindset that led to this. If I was going to break that rule I woulda asked what color his role is as there was a broken color tag in my PM. I simply asked if me saying that I have cop ability bothered him. | ||
|
vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
Give every player a copy of the vanilla PM and stay away from catch all role titles like Jack and this just wont be an issue. It really is a black and white rule. Simply mod kill those that quote or copy paste mod communicated items and let the players sort everything else. | ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
As a player I don't even particularly like roleclaiming, but it's undisputably part of the game. Disallowing people from even stating the specific name of their role is rather harsh and unnecessary. Administrative action is not necessary as long as the game mechanics make it hard or next to impossible to compare role PMs and get away with it. If the players are punished through the game itself, they will learn eventually that role comparing is harmful at best. | ||
|
Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
Town was also capable of self protection Edit: I just want to add that I did handled the roles poorly. I had way too many power roles. Radfield was incapable of being lynched or killed until Harry died, and was reborn. They both had 2 lives within the game. Radfield could only die when Harry had one life. edit#2: My posting too much was because of the meta I had of "posts more as town" As mafia, in my first game as mafia, elected Godfather by Incognito and Infundibulum, I lead us to having 6/8 players in the endgame (the same 25% mafia loss that I helped in Ace's Theme) I want to add that I only took TL Mafia's very seriously back then. I didn't believe the theme games would be as strict, or that people would try as hard in them. I still had a little left to develop in terms of my mind, that you should always play for fun, and play for the love of the game itself, not needing to rely on anyone else to make myself have fun. I now have fun scumhunting, and trying to label an entire scumteam, if not at least one on scumtells or slips. Merry Christmas, guys. I'm glad you all are letting me get back in on some games. I'm going to go ahead and sign up for a game! edit #3: I believe I know what game I'm going to go for  | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On December 25 2011 03:48 iGrok wrote: If the hosts were better about prevention measures, the players wouldn't put so much value in it. All of these rules will just make the issue more complicated, and ruling by "intent" is never fair (sentencing by intent is OK, but guilt shouldn't be determined by intent). Players will always find ways to abuse rules that are unclear or have gray area, and I cannot think of a rule that allows claiming but prevents role comparison. Unless you're saying players should rewrite their roles if they want to claim? If you are a host, you should provide role pms or write differently formatted role pms, or accept that this is a good tactic to use. Alternatively, TLMafia can come up with a common (shared) role pm list, similar to IRC mafia. While yes, it is more work for the hosts, maybe that will make people think twice before hosting. We've got more than enough games. Personally, IMO every game should have a finalized setup before asking to be added to the queue. As someone who hosts more than I play, I think hosts get off too easy. I don't think blaming the players exclusively helps anything either, but everyone seems content to just say "don't abuse game mechanics" without considering that maybe the game mechanics shouldn't be abusable to begin with To give a clear example, in closed casket mafia Deconduo said something about shady Iraqis in one of his posts. This specifically was a reference to his role PM in a closed set up. This means any other person with that same role PM knew he was now 100% innocent. In this case it was Caller who also had the same role, saw the reference, and knew he was town. This is using elements outside the game in order to get an advantage. The way around this as you mentioned would be having different role PM's for each player which is a lot of work to throw onto a host particularly in larger games. Another way could be having no flavor which can be subtly referenced IE: "Iraqis" In an open set up though, I always post the role PM's in the thread. | ||
|
Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
While these help but aren't sufficient, I feel that we already have a rule in place to stop PM comparison: 6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. Comparing exact wording or the ordering abilities of your role is violating this rule as you are sharing a PM you received from the host. That said I support the addition of Qatol's proposed rule in order to clarify what rule 6 implies. RoL provides a good example which we can probably all agree should not be allowed in a game. | ||
|
iGrok
United States5142 Posts
On December 26 2011 01:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: To give a clear example, in closed casket mafia Deconduo said something about shady Iraqis in one of his posts. This specifically was a reference to his role PM in a closed set up. This means any other person with that same role PM knew he was now 100% innocent. In this case it was Caller who also had the same role, saw the reference, and knew he was town. This is using elements outside the game in order to get an advantage. The way around this as you mentioned would be having different role PM's for each player which is a lot of work to throw onto a host particularly in larger games. Another way could be having no flavor which can be subtly referenced IE: "Iraqis" In an open set up though, I always post the role PM's in the thread. I disagree that that is using outside elements to win. In larger games, perhaps a second cohort should be recruited to help write unique role pms | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
If that makes sense. | ||
|
iGrok
United States5142 Posts
If players can't quote, why is there any flavor in roles? If hosts are too overworked, to the point that they can't write unique ones, we should make their job easier. No flavor in role pms, only a bare-bones description. If players can't post their text there is NO reason to have flavored roles to begin with. But hey, look what that does! If there is no flavor text, we should be able to agree on a common role list, right? Which would allow people to claim because all pms would be lnown! And that fixes the other issue of people believing every claim that comes out (though I may have other ideas on how to fix that problem). | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
It had nothing to do with the game or skill, it is roughly the same as logging on to each others account to trust each other. There is NO tactical way for mafia to fight or overcome it apart from a fucking guess which isn't remotely fair. I don't get why anyone ever even tries this, its not even fun. | ||
|
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
As well, there's a difference between posting text from your role PM, and role-claiming. I don't see what the problem is if your role PM looked like: You are a Detective! Born to a poor family, you almost got caught up in a life of petty crime, before your brother was killed in a mugging, and you decided you'd rather protect and serve the community than prey off it. After moving up in the ranks of the city police, you've gained the ability to make investigations into people's backgrounds. Each night you may investigate one player and determine their alignment. With just claiming you're a DT, who investigates alignment. Flavour is fun for the game, but I don't see why it should be used to confirm your alignment. I don't see why you need to quote flavour to role-claim, either. In my opinion, flavour is there to make the game more immersive, and funner. Maybe not everyone sees it this way, but to make an analogy to video-games, it's the same reason that units and races in Starcraft all have names and unique models. For example, I'm pretty sure you could just replace Minerals and Vespene Gas with Resource 1 and Resource 2, and do the same with all the names of the units without changing how the game plays out. You can take out all the animations that aren't necessary too. It wouldn't affect the game at all, but flavour and backstory can serve to make a game immersive and fun for a player. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
"Man, did anyone see that new batman show birds of Prey on the WB? It was awesome. In one of the episides it shows someone brother killed in a mugging." Or something like that. It looks completely random but anyone who also had the DT PM in a closed set up can catch the inference and realize you are now town. No medics or mafia will realize that is what you are doing unless its painfully blatant or you announce it. | ||
|
vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On December 26 2011 05:26 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: To expand on that, its fine to claim DT, but if I made a post that was something like. "Man, did anyone see that new batman show birds of Prey on the WB? It was awesome. In one of the episides it shows someone brother killed in a mugging." Or something like that. It looks completely random but anyone who also had the DT PM in a closed set up can catch the inference and realize you are now town. No medics or mafia will realize that is what you are doing unless its painfully blatant or you announce it. Thank you for this example! Sadly thouh, I thnk a different conclusion is in order. In a closed setup, the use of unique PMs for every non vanilla is required (as well as a copy of the vanilla PM) in order to not disallow otherwise good use of breadcrumbing. Breadcrumbing isn't illegal here is it? If it is, I would say that needs discussed. It is alot more work (dont take my misplay last game, I have hosted and played clsed setups with custom roles for everyone) but it gives the players a really unrestricted yet defined way to play. It completeuly avoids situatiions that have been discussed here while needing the least consideeation player side. (posted from phone will edit later) | ||
|
iGrok
United States5142 Posts
Can anyone come up with a reason not to mandate unique pms other than "its more work for the host"? I get that you want to blame the players, but if there's a solution on the host side, why not do that? Re: flavor, yes I agree wiggles, I was using that example to show why unique role pms are a better solution. | ||
|
vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
Thats the rules that I have seen as standard in most places I play. It covers this issue under mod communication in a well done way imo. | ||
| ||
