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Hi guys. With the New Year approaching, I would like to re-open my case for the lack of a clear consensus that was surrounding removing the ban from over the heads of players like myself, or Zorkmid, after a period of time has elapsed.
I realize that a lot of you are busy for the holidays, and that's fine. I'm in no rush. I just wanted you all to know that I am still here wishing to participate in my favorite websites subforum of a hobby of mine, and if you all would allow my ban to be removed, I would try to make your lives a bit more enjoyable.
The last two months, the last two years, even the last two lines I have posted in a mafia game at all have shown, to myself at least, that I am trying to not only improve as a mafia player, but as a person. What this does is make the game more enjoyable and exciting for everyone. Are you excited? I know I am!
Let's get to the point with this, I am not perfect. Noone is. I'm sorry RoL, I'm sorry Meapak, I'm sorry DoctorH, and I'm sorry Ace. I didn't mean to ruin your alls' games. Merry Christmas, guys.
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I'm gonna be blunt Bill, I find your playing/posting style to be super annoying and I doubt I'm ever going to get over that. That being said, it's been half a year which was the prescribed time before we reopened discussion. I guess I'm not going to renew my objection to letting you play. The player base has changed since your original infraction, a lot of people who were in the games you ruined are no longer here. Because of this, I don't really see an resentment from the current base in letting you play which in turn should cause less drama. While I myself remain personally opposed to letting you play, I realize that I am one person out of the hundreds who have passed through this forum. I've only been here for a little over a year now and with my present activity level I don't believe my personal preference should be taken into account in this decision.
Despite my personal feelings, if I host here again and you wish to play then you are welcome to.
I hope this chance goes better than your last, gl and hf in your future games Bill.
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Okay I've been here for like 6 months or something, and I've heard Bill Murray's name pop up quite a few times. Hardly ever for something good though.
Who is Bill Murray and should I be worried about his possible return? What is his story?
I have no idea who Bill Murray is but I don't think I'd like a guy if he actively or passively ruins games for everybody.
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so this is the precedent now:
anybody who says, in proper order, five words of their role text, WITHOUT quoting the PM itself or posting screenshots (aka "without breaking the game") will get a warning.
good to know.
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On December 23 2011 09:06 annul wrote:
so this is the precedent now:
anybody who says, in proper order, five words of their role text, WITHOUT quoting the PM itself or posting screenshots (aka "without breaking the game") will get a warning.
good to know.
As of where?
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I've learned to not mess with role PMs whatsoever out of the thread, and with a PM to the mod in terms of what is acceptable if not
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My story is the samw story as anyone who is growing up. Over time, you mature as a person. I may have done so slower than others, posting things after death a year ago for instance, but I have learned to try to look at things through other peoples eyes.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On December 23 2011 09:01 prplhz wrote:
Okay I've been here for like 6 months or something, and I've heard Bill Murray's name pop up quite a few times. Hardly ever for something good though.
Who is Bill Murray and should I be worried about his possible return? What is his story?
I have no idea who Bill Murray is but I don't think I'd like a guy if he actively or passively ruins games for everybody.
The TL Mafia quiz is a good place to read up on peoples' past. Using a little deductive instinct you can figure out a person from it. I've taken the liberty of putting Bill Murray's section here, for quick convenience (and a quick laugh).
Note: I'm obviously half joking if you couldn't tell. I'll let Bill Murray join a game for the new year, under a very tight leash of course. I'm not going to let him host anything until he's proven himself of course (that means multiple games obviously).
+ Show Spoiler [Bill Murray] +15. You are Bill Murray and nobody is talking about you, yet. What do you do?a) Spam the thread b) "i would also like to request a detective to rolecheck me" c) "I'm asking for a medic to protect me night #1" d) Spam the thread. Congratulations, you now have 14% of total posts in a 30 person game. e) PM 5 other unconfirmed players night 1 that you are the Detective because you fear that the person you rolechecked might be the Godfather. f) Argue with DoctorHelvetica until you both forget what you are arguing about (30 pages later). g) Spam the thread h) Everyone got mad at Malongo executing Chezinu day 1. Now the town is peaceably discussing a plan of how to proceed day 2. Time for you to intervene! Execute L out of the blue. Mass chaos ensues with townies shooting each other at the start of every day. Town gets crushed and only kills 1/4 mafia. i) Get the inventor role, the most imbalanced role ever, and use it like this: "i am inventing a newspaper for clues to be in the day post." j) (same as 'i'): When a suspicious town demands he make his inventions clear and obvious instead of giving them names like a computer or cell phone, he finds a more innovative solution: "ill just invent an alignment checking kit that can only be used to check me so u will shut up." k) Spam the thread l) "i just realized my team has won all 3 times i've played i may not be good, but i produce results" m) Threaten the host n) Continue to play after dying o) Did I mention spamming the thread? [01:58] Ver: even after being repeatedly warned not to spam [01:58] Ver: he still has [01:58] Ver: about [01:58] Ver: 10% [01:59] Ver: of total posts [01:59] Ver: .... p) Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 14:10 Bill Murray wrote:
i honestly didn't try to play anti-town
i do that naturally q) Host Harry Potter Mafia where you decide the rules. 1) Create a horrifically imbalanced game (goes without saying right?) 2) There are 3 siblings and 1 of them got modkilled. What do you do? Modkill the other 2 as well! Did they do anything wrong? Nope, who cares! 3) Drunkenly edit the rules midgame. 4) Let the mafia mayor pardon himself. Twice. 5) Change the rules midgame. Many times. 6) Tell a player he is the treestump and has no other power. Give him the nurse role later in addition because you feel like it. 7) Several players and outsiders proceed to revolt in the middle of the game, the first time in TL Mafia History. You love setting trends don't you? q) Ooh hosting again are ya. Are the mafia winning despite the fact that you gave them 2 KP when they need 3 for balance? Uh oh that ain't falco. On day 4, the first time when 2 mafia are up for a double lynch, suddenly change the format from normal lynch to majority lynch. Mafia die within 4 hours of day starting before they can even post when one of them could have easily saved himself. Give the town the full 48 hours to discuss the revelations. r) Save L from Tree.Hugger's nuke with your only anti-nuke. Versatile nukes L. Nuke Versatile in retaliation. She nukes you back. Oops, your nuke is a dud but hers isn't and you're out of anti-nukes! Show nested quote +On March 28 2010 15:28 Ace wrote:Missile Launch detected!![[image loading]](http://jeremayakovka.typepad.com/jeremayakovka/images/qassam_rocket_dud.jpg) Missiles from Bill Murray streak towards Versatile. As the missiles break the skyline the General looks on in terror. Suddenly he looks closely at the warheads and asks "Are those pies on the warheads?" The missiles end up damaging part of the city, but they are not nuclear.Versatile survives the attack!
Missiles launched in retaliation by Versatile will strike BM at 15:42 KST!
Missiles launched by L towards Caller will strike at 10:09 KST!
Nukes in the air: 2
Nukes detonated: 2
Radiation levels: low
Day currently ends at 10:09 KST March29th Show nested quote +On March 28 2010 15:45 Ace wrote:Hell on Earth!![[image loading]](http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r5/javy97477/BulletBill.gif) Unlike the previous missile strike, these warheads turn out to be nuclear. Cattle is vaporized and burgers are everywhere! Mcdonald's comes to claim the free patties but realize not even they can sell this shit. Bill Murray is no more.Bill Murray (India,pro town, 1 shot Day Doc)
Missiles launched by L towards Caller will strike at 10:09 KST!
Nukes in the air: 1
Nukes detonated: 3
Radiation levels: low
Day currently ends at 10:09 KST March29th Show nested quote +On March 28 2010 19:45 Bill Murray wrote:
I was lead to believe I actually had a nuke. Show nested quote +On March 28 2010 19:51 Ace wrote:
Maybe you should read your role PM carefully.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Tight leash, no hosting, welcome to play!
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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On December 21 2011 11:52 flamewheel wrote:
Corrupt, Refallen, annul, and vaderseven have been given warnings for TL Mafia XLVIII.
Hi, I think there's been a mistake here. I think that Incog had originally suggested that I, kingjames01, receive a warning. However, in the quote, I had bolded "Refallen".
On December 20 2011 07:55 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 16:04 kingjames01 wrote:
Refallen: What is the exact name of your role?
I am inclined to give kingjames a warning for ignoring the explicitly stated rule against comparing role PM wording.
Next, I would like to request a discussion about this. When I asked this question to Refallen, I was not doing it so that I had information to compare or to try and trick him into making a mistake. By this point, I had already worked out that he must have been Town. I also was a Vanilla Town so no comparisons could be made anyway. I did it so that I could update my summary post that I was working on.
I had no intent to sabotage the game or any other malicious reason for this post. Furthermore, I did not realize that the way that the question was worded violated the rules. I knew about the rule against discussing PMs but I DID NOT actually ask Refallen to quote his PM or discuss the role PMs specifically.
Finally, if I had wanted to, I could have said nothing and Refallen would have unfairly received the warning instead of me. However, that would not be conducive to the spirit of TL Mafia and if my arguments from above do not completely convince you, perhaps my "honesty" will help my case.
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On December 24 2011 06:43 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 11:52 flamewheel wrote:
Corrupt, Refallen, annul, and vaderseven have been given warnings for TL Mafia XLVIII. Hi, I think there's been a mistake here. I think that Incog had originally suggested that I, kingjames01, receive a warning. However, in the quote, I had bolded "Refallen". Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 07:55 Incognito wrote:On December 12 2011 16:04 kingjames01 wrote:
Refallen: What is the exact name of your role?
I am inclined to give kingjames a warning for ignoring the explicitly stated rule against comparing role PM wording. Next, I would like to request a discussion about this. When I asked this question to Refallen, I was not doing it so that I had information to compare or to try and trick him into making a mistake. By this point, I had already worked out that he must have been Town. I also was a Vanilla Town so no comparisons could be made anyway. I did it so that I could update my summary post that I was working on. I had no intent to sabotage the game or any other malicious reason for this post. Furthermore, I did not realize that the way that the question was worded violated the rules. I knew about the rule against discussing PMs but I DID NOT actually ask Refallen to quote his PM or discuss the role PMs specifically. Finally, if I had wanted to, I could have said nothing and Refallen would have unfairly received the warning instead of me. However, that would not be conducive to the spirit of TL Mafia and if my arguments from above do not completely convince you, perhaps my "honesty" will help my case.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Thank you for your honesty, though up to Incognito.
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No warning for Refallen. None for kingjames either.
Role name is fairly innocuous, but seriously, this thing needs to stop. There is absolutely no reason to ask "what is the exact name of your role" unless you intend to do some sort of comparison. Why does it matter what the name of the role is? What do you intend to gain by asking that sort of question? You should be more concerned about what the abilities are than the role name. It doesn't matter whether his role is named "medic", "doctor", or "rectangular octopus with 5 eyes and 2 horns".
As a note for future ban list policy, I'm not sure if it is a good idea to keep letting people off based on "no bad intentions". The rules are there for a reason, and if everyone can claim that they had good intentions, then that just compromises everything. It is really frustrating that the role PM comparison continues to happen for multiple games, and continues to happen after multiple warnings in the same game. I'm glad the game included both a mafia and a town jack, as it should teach people a lesson, but this sort of thing is just ridiculous. You guys spend pages and pages discussing the technicalities of the role PM, which fills the thread with pretty useless information, making it harder for other people to read the thread, and is just distasteful in general. While you may not have intended to break the game, your actions still have consequences in the game. Play the game of mafia, not the game of outguessing the host.
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Hmm, you don't even want players asking for another player's role name? I think that's a bit extreme.
If hosts detest players comparing their private information and don't care to put in the effort to make sure such private information doesn't contain unwanted clues, perhaps it's time to host more games with open or semi-open setups?
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On December 24 2011 07:05 Incognito wrote:
No warning for Refallen. None for kingjames either.
Role name is fairly innocuous, but seriously, this thing needs to stop. There is absolutely no reason to ask "what is the exact name of your role" unless you intend to do some sort of comparison. Why does it matter what the name of the role is? What do you intend to gain by asking that sort of question? You should be more concerned about what the abilities are than the role name. It doesn't matter whether his role is named "medic", "doctor", or "rectangular octopus with 5 eyes and 2 horns".
As a note for future ban list policy, I'm not sure if it is a good idea to keep letting people off based on "no bad intentions". The rules are there for a reason, and if everyone can claim that they had good intentions, then that just compromises everything. It is really frustrating that the role PM comparison continues to happen for multiple games, and continues to happen after multiple warnings in the same game. I'm glad the game included both a mafia and a town jack, as it should teach people a lesson, but this sort of thing is just ridiculous. You guys spend pages and pages discussing the technicalities of the role PM, which fills the thread with pretty useless information, making it harder for other people to read the thread, and is just distasteful in general. While you may not have intended to break the game, your actions still have consequences in the game. Play the game of mafia, not the game of outguessing the host.
The question was posed since he never made a claim to a role. All he had said at that point was that he was responsible for healing Palmar. I wanted something to write down in my on-going summary post. I never mentioned PMs. I never asked for a quote from a PM.
Consider this: a player lies and makes up a role DIFFERENT than the one from his original PM, "Roleblock Immune Medic". Is that as bad as a person who claims the ACTUAL role, like "Floridian"? Where do you draw that line? Either no one is allowed to name their roles which means NO FAKE CLAIMS or everyone can say whatever they want.
Are you asking for NO FAKE CLAIMS? That makes no sense.
Also, not to be facetious, but I never actually once took part in the Town Jack vs Mafia Jack 'discussion'. It was ridiculous and pointless and we had more pressing things going on in the game like actual scum hunting. The mafia welcome the chaos and bad Townies don't know any better. So I don't know why you're lumping me with those guys...
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On December 24 2011 08:54 Zona wrote:
Hmm, you don't even want players asking for another player's role name? I think that's a bit extreme.
If hosts detest players comparing their private information and don't care to put in the effort to make sure such private information doesn't contain unwanted clues, perhaps it's time to host more games with open or semi-open setups?
"What is your role" is much different from "What is the exact name of your role". As I said, role name is probably innocuous, which is why I retract the warning request, but I am obviously upset at the other shenanigans that were going on. Comparing the order of abilities is absurd.
On December 24 2011 09:03 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 07:05 Incognito wrote:
No warning for Refallen. None for kingjames either.
Role name is fairly innocuous, but seriously, this thing needs to stop. There is absolutely no reason to ask "what is the exact name of your role" unless you intend to do some sort of comparison. Why does it matter what the name of the role is? What do you intend to gain by asking that sort of question? You should be more concerned about what the abilities are than the role name. It doesn't matter whether his role is named "medic", "doctor", or "rectangular octopus with 5 eyes and 2 horns".
As a note for future ban list policy, I'm not sure if it is a good idea to keep letting people off based on "no bad intentions". The rules are there for a reason, and if everyone can claim that they had good intentions, then that just compromises everything. It is really frustrating that the role PM comparison continues to happen for multiple games, and continues to happen after multiple warnings in the same game. I'm glad the game included both a mafia and a town jack, as it should teach people a lesson, but this sort of thing is just ridiculous. You guys spend pages and pages discussing the technicalities of the role PM, which fills the thread with pretty useless information, making it harder for other people to read the thread, and is just distasteful in general. While you may not have intended to break the game, your actions still have consequences in the game. Play the game of mafia, not the game of outguessing the host. The question was posed since he never made a claim to a role. All he had said at that point was that he was responsible for healing Palmar. I wanted something to write down in my on-going summary post. I never mentioned PMs. I never asked for a quote from a PM. Consider this: a player lies and makes up a role DIFFERENT than the one from his original PM, "Roleblock Immune Medic". Is that as bad as a person who claims the ACTUAL role, like "Floridian"? Where do you draw that line? Either no one is allowed to name their roles which means NO FAKE CLAIMS or everyone can say whatever they want. Are you asking for NO FAKE CLAIMS? That makes no sense. Also, not to be facetious, but I never actually once took part in the Town Jack vs Mafia Jack 'discussion'. It was ridiculous and pointless and we had more pressing things going on in the game like actual scum hunting. The mafia welcome the chaos and bad Townies don't know any better. So I don't know why you're lumping me with those guys...
I'm not lumping you with those guys. I'm just taking the opportunity to comment on the PM thing as a whole. Mafia do welcome the chaos, but the discussion has no place in a game anyway.
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Personally, I don't care much about this role breadcrumbing business, particularly as I am inclined to be very lenient with players. I would rather the players figure out on their own what is good and bad.
Mostly, I think it's a problem that is very easily remedied with very little action on the part of the banlist.
Particularly in XLVIII, it was mostly just bad player attitude. In that case, it's up to the other players in the game to punish the bad play, instead of the hosts' jobs to punish it. In this case, the role breadcrumbing offered no benefit to the players who were attempting to use it. In particular, it taught vaderseven a particularly harsh lesson that role does not equate to alignment, and focusing a discussion on such an issue is bound to destroy town atmosphere.
Did it ruin the game? Perhaps, but that's a fault of the players not wanting to actually play. There is nothing that we should be doing administratively to change that. The attitude of the players simply needs to change.
When we look at past problems with breadcrumbing, they have partly been an issue with player attitude and partly an issue with the hosts themselves. In XLV the problem was mostly the coloring of the PMs. However, when that information is introduced into the game, it doesn't help to tell the players not to talk about it. When the information is there, the players HAVE to talk about it, because it has now become game-relevant. The solution in this case is to simply either make all the role PMs identical with all controlable aspects outside of game-relevant information, such as time of receipt, sender, color, format, etc. OR to make all the PMs unique.
Either of these will solve 90% of the problems, and the remaining 10% are simply problems with respect to players wasting time in games by discussing semantics. That's a problem for the players.
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*edit
Clearly I'm not thinking straight. I'll get back to this later.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgj2j4IT8x1qh71uoo1_400.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BdQwZ.jpg)
