Invictus Gaming Wins Worlds 2018! - Page 32

LiquidLegends pick'em group thanks to St3MoR!

DarkCore

Germany4194 Posts

October 25 2018 13:35 GMT

#621

????

Have no clue what he was talking about either. Unless the criteria is winning Worlds, and no one cares about season 1.

I don't have time to watch Thorin, but I can imagine the smitestone argument having some merit. But I don't think there are less wards this year than previous ones, no? Someone would have to check the stats.

Gahlo

United States35172 Posts

October 25 2018 13:41 GMT

#622

On October 25 2018 22:35 DarkCore wrote:

Show nested quote +

S1 wouldn't count anyway since there was no Chinese teams there.

There would have to be less wards. Junglers are offering less, trinket warding has stayed the same, and now supports have to complete a quest to have more than 1 ward from their item instead of being able to just drop 800 for sightstone.

Numy

South Africa35471 Posts

October 25 2018 16:32 GMT

#623

I wonder if there are fewer wards then S1-S3 when green wards were unlimited? Weirdly enough I think there might have been fewer back then just because people weren't that great at vision control and oracle made it really hard to establish vision from behind.

Would have to check actual stats though.

loSleb

Austria1389 Posts

October 25 2018 17:51 GMT

#624

While I'm sure the trackers knife removal had some impact, it feels overall like a pretty weak argument because its been gone basically the whole year. We saw none of these issue or complaints at MSI.

nineninja9

United States194 Posts

October 25 2018 18:25 GMT

#625

On October 25 2018 17:06 DarkCore wrote:
While true, the real juggernauts of KR (SKT, SSW, ROX, NJBS) were able to win most laning phases or at least break even. Rarely did they ever get demolished in the first 15 minutes to the point of no return. The last two or three seasons this hasn't been the case anymore, and they have looked a lot shakier ever since.

Sure I mean if we're just talking about season 5 and earlier that might be true (even then najin black in s3 only played skt at worlds so we have no clue what they would have looked like against any other team), but even in season 5 Korean teams dropped multiple games in groups. The fact that they stomped both EU teams 3-0 in semis is a testament to their preparation and coaching, but even that's hard to quantify at times. How much of that is a team straight up being better and how much of that is magical "coaching magic" that only happens after several weeks of analysis? If the format for worlds this year had groups taking place over 2 weeks instead of 8 straight days would Korean teams have done any better?

Just generally watching KR vs non-KR teams in past years, it always felt like an early gold lead was not enough. You'd see non-KR teams pull off intricately planned early game plays and jungle ganks, and there'd be maybe a 1-2k gold lead at 10 minutes, but it wouldn't matter because eventually the KR team would catch up through objectives, then win a random midgame teamfight 3-1 and at that point you knew even though there was 15 minutes left in the game it was over and the KR team would win.

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

October 25 2018 20:18 GMT

#626

On October 26 2018 01:32 Numy wrote:
I wonder if there are fewer wards then S1-S3 when green wards were unlimited? Weirdly enough I think there might have been fewer back then just because people weren't that great at vision control and oracle made it really hard to establish vision from behind.

Would have to check actual stats though.

S3 is probably peak wards/min. Oracles still in the game, supports and junglers were both wardslaves.

DarkCore

Germany4194 Posts

October 25 2018 21:07 GMT

#627

Honestly the way warding is implemented right now is great. Wards should be a powerful tool, but there should also
be a risk to placing them in vital locations. S3 wardslaves was the absolute worst, think GP5 items were still around too to encourage it.

You'd see non-KR teams pull off intricately planned early game plays and jungle ganks, and there'd be maybe a 1-2k gold lead at 10 minutes,

Were they really intricate? I can't think of any great western teams showing crazy prep in the early seasons. Also early seasons were the place where gold leads could get massive: more first blood gold, think towers gave more as well, and dragon gold. KR macro back then was at a peak, they really managed to keep those crazy snowball factors to a low.

nineninja9

United States194 Posts

October 25 2018 22:07 GMT

#628

They were intricate as in clearly preplanned, but past the early-midgame they could no longer follow a flowchart anymore and then Korean teams' better understanding of the game as a whole would win out. How many games over the years did we see Faker get 3-4 manned at 5 minutes by Western/Chinese/Wildcard teams, just for it not to matter since all that would do is keep their midlaner even or slightly ahead in gold while every other part of the map eventually fell apart. There were plenty of games where a non Korean team could get first blood or brute force a first tower but it still didn't matter. The thing is even when snowballing was more severe (the peak was probably S3 in my opinion, not counting this year of course) Korean teams still rarely lost even when they did fall behind pre-10 minutes. Either that means the meta wasn't actually that snowbally since clearly you can win when it's against you, or Koreans were so much better they could win no matter what they played (which is probably more true if you look at something like 2014 all stars where OMG picked everything they wanted and still got dumpstered by SKT).

Gahlo

United States35172 Posts

October 25 2018 22:34 GMT

#629

Absolutely not. There was never more vision than when supports dumped all their gold into wards.

AdsMoFro

Japan4761 Posts

October 25 2018 23:46 GMT

#630

Vision numbers haven't even decreased too much. Only have stats from 2014 onwards, but at worlds, the highest warding year was 2015 at 4.09 wards per minute. In 2018 it was 3.87.

Poopi

France12911 Posts

October 26 2018 09:33 GMT

#631

On October 25 2018 20:41 Gahlo wrote:

Show nested quote +

????

S2 EU performed better because M5 beat iG directly in quarters.

S3 Fnatic lost to Royal in semis.

S4 all 3 Chinese teams got out of groups and 0 EU teams did.

S5 EU was better by getting 2 teams out of groups and into Semis, with EDG falling to Fnatic in quarters.

S6 China got 2 teams out of groups and met Korea in quarters while EU had H2K which got a lucky draw with ANX so they could get to semis

S7 2 Chinese teams got to semis, one beating FNC directly in quarters.

Over this time, China has also won 2 MSI to EU's 0.

EU being better than China "for years" has never been true.

Show nested quote +

On October 25 2018 17:06 DarkCore wrote:
Think CN and KR got the meta right, but bought into the OP champion hype (Kai'Sa especially) too much. 17 of Kai'Sa's 40 games were played by Jackey, Deft and iBoy, Kramer and Uzi have also played her a few times. She is currently sitting on a 45% win rate, and it's because Western teams have shown she can be beaten, either by quick games or by drafting a Sivir comp that owns her in late fights.

EDG were clearly the inferior team in their series. They would get gold leads and kills, but got outmacroed so incredibly hard. FNC even had an arguably more talented roster if you value Bwipo and Broxah higher than their counterparts. If you had told me FNC was from KR, I would've believed you, because this is basically the way KR teams primarily beat everyone every season until the previous one.

RNG vs G2 was about disrespect. I think RNG went in with the mindset that they could do everything better, and that their botlane would blow a big hole open in the game. I didn't see any specific counterdrafting to G2 or crazy surprise strats, they left Aatrox open a whopping 4 times (although only once did the champ really go off), and I was really surprised they tried out Lucian 3 times. The champ can work, but it relies on getting an early advantage and Uzi playing perfectly, neither which happened. 1 game is a pocket strat, three games suggests they legit thought G2 would crumble to the pressure, and gambled on it.

Even in previous worlds non-Korean teams could get leads pre-15 minutes, it was just that eventually they would lose based off of map movements. It just turns out that now stalling out is a bit harder and KR teams couldn't handle early-mid game pressure anymore.

While true, the real juggernauts of KR (SKT, SSW, ROX, NJBS) were able to win most laning phases or at least break even. Rarely did they ever get demolished in the first 15 minutes to the point of no return. The last two or three seasons this hasn't been the case anymore, and they have looked a lot shakier ever since.

Thorin had a more recent episode where Loco and LS argued about why Korea looked so bad this year. Loco is pretty adamant that the lose of Smitestone really hurt the Korean playstyle.

Pretty straightforward:
S1 EU automatically
S2 EU>CN
S3 CN>EU
S4 CN>EU
S5 EU>CN
S6 EU>CN
S7 CN>EU
S8 EU>CN (except if both G2 and fnatic lose)

But yeah I thought it was more one sided than that, China is not that bad actually.
Just not the juggernauts they are ought to be, they fail most of the time.

DarkCore

Germany4194 Posts

October 26 2018 18:45 GMT

#632

Man, your analysis is so one dimensional, idk wtf you're on about.

S1 doesn't count, LoL was a tiny game and it was Western teams with some random SEA teams.
S2 I'll give to you, although keep in mind the game had just been introduced to CN, the scene wasn't developed at all.
S3 OMG did very well only to get smoked by Royal. Royal still demolished FNC handily
S4 SHRC again took out the other CN teams
S5 iG and LGD played atrocious, absolutely their worst year.
S6 is you looking at the pure rankings, what a load of bs. CN was taken out by KR, SKT and ROX were arguably the strongest teams in the tournament. H2K got ANX who hilariously made it out of a group with CLG and G2
S7 was without a doubt a CN

S6 is when people starting considering CN a juggernaut region, that is when their scene fully developed and the money started flowing (technically S5, but that is why we meme'd them for the past two years). Before that they were the same as any other region, except KR with its infrastructure and hence domination of the scene.

AlterKot

Poland7525 Posts

October 26 2018 22:17 GMT

#633

I'm just really happy EU is doing so well this year, it's been a joy to watch Vit make a mark, G2 toughen it out and FNC win so handily

Yorbon

Netherlands4272 Posts

October 27 2018 00:03 GMT

#634

The S6 EU>CN 'opinion' triggers me endlessly.

Redox

Germany24794 Posts

October 27 2018 06:30 GMT

#635

While I dont agree with the EU>CN premise, I do think that LPL underperformed a lot over the recent years. They are much bigger than all other LoL regions combined. They have all the resources needed (money in esports and player population). So I have been waiting for them to completely dominate the scene for some time now. I thought this would be their first big year. Maybe it still will be, but it was not that dominant. If they dont win when Korea did this badly it is surely a big disappointment. Also for Riot I guess.

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

October 27 2018 08:04 GMT

#636

TBH, the only really fun stories in LOL for the past few years have all been about trolling China. I suppose a distant second was Korea being the best as a fun 2nd option for ruining people's days. If China ever lived up to its potential it would sap al the fun out of the system, because like 50%+ is trolling China and its boosters.

Redox

Germany24794 Posts

October 27 2018 08:17 GMT

#637

G2 game 1 draft seems fantastic to me.

DarkCore

Germany4194 Posts

October 27 2018 08:20 GMT

#638

I thought that Vayne Sivir might become a real thing, but this is perfectly fine with me.

Interesting that iG feel the same way about Lucian, win bot win game. Meanwhile G2 got Sivir, who will dump so hard in late game team fights.