EPTInvictus Gaming Wins Worlds 2018! - Page 31
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Poopi
France12911 Posts
I hope they win Worlds but C9 are gonna be tough and G2/iG will be hungry as well. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On October 22 2018 02:53 chipmonklord17 wrote: Watching the restream there's something that's been bothering me since this morning, what the fuck was up with Afreeca's bans game 3? They banned alistar from C9, when they were the ones who played it games 1 and 2, instead of banning the Braum that C9 actually played I think they didn't want C9 to have Alistar engage, the plan was originally to have Tusin play it, but clearly Tusin wasn't performing on it. I do think though that Afreeca spent too much time trying to eliminate potential engage from C9, as clearly they couldn't stop it anyway due to C9's depth of champion pool. Imo they should have just dropped some of the power picks and tried to get a few high tier picks instead of trying to tailor their bans to C9 so much. Would have liked to see them try to get Kiin a big meta carry like Irelia / Akali / Aatrox. Ah well. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On October 22 2018 07:36 iCanada wrote: I think they didn't want C9 to have Alistar engage, the plan was originally to have Tusin play it, but clearly Tusin wasn't performing on it. I do think though that Afreeca spent too much time trying to eliminate potential engage from C9, as clearly they couldn't stop it anyway due to C9's depth of champion pool. Imo they should have just dropped some of the power picks and tried to get a few high tier picks instead of trying to tailor their bans to C9 so much. Would have liked to see them try to get Kiin a big meta carry like Irelia / Akali / Aatrox. Ah well. But with the option to take alistar every time they chose Aatrox first pick and Braum. They clearly had a penchant for Braum and instead Afreeca banned the champ THEY played instead of the one their opponents did. Like they could have banned Braum last, given C9 nocturne, then taken Alistar themselves, in their first rotation | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On October 22 2018 08:01 chipmonklord17 wrote: But with the option to take alistar every time they chose Aatrox first pick and Braum. They clearly had a penchant for Braum and instead Afreeca banned the champ THEY played instead of the one their opponents did. Like they could have banned Braum last, given C9 nocturne, then taken Alistar themselves, in their first rotation Yeah, i think they just placed a higher priority on Ali than C9, afraid of playing against it. Because frankly Tusin kinda inted on Alistar, lol. Maybe it was something Zeyzal popped off with in scrims, idk. And the overall world stats on Ali this worlds are in the 60% neighborhood, so thats a thing. I do think Reapered outdrafted Afreeca though. But Reapered outdrafts everyone. | ||
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Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
In previous Worlds, Western teams kept trying to play things that they weren't good at and trying to copy styles that they hadn't played all year. Idk what made them think they could learn a style and then surpass the teams that had been playing that style for years now. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
their teamfighting sucked macro sucked pb sucked etc. it was pretty confusing how they'd fail on so many different fronts | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On the other hand the CN hype this year, myself included, got absolutely stomped, way harder than ever before. When KR beat CN, people were like 'guess KR is still invincible'. Two CN teams got taken out by Western teams instead, and all 3 teams got a nice beating in groups. I'm pretty sure for the CN player base that's got to hurt so bad, because now the West has a legit chance to claim that glory instead of what they thought was rightfully theirs. If G2 beat iG I don't think my heart will be able to take it. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
Probably the biggest change for KR that I think they are still adjusting to is the increasing removal of vision in League. Trinket wards still don't last as long as old green ones, and the removal of the jungle ward item basically deligates all warding to the support, and they are basically spending all their gold on pinks for the first15 minutes of the game once they get their ward item. This screwed over KR's macro gameplay very hard, which was reliant on lighting up the section of the map they were looking to invade/fight in 2-ish minutes ahead of time. Now the map is liable to have a bunch of dead zones for camping to occur at, and they've not adjusted to it. Compare this to NA and EU (and even CN) who have always lacked on their macro vision, but are used to taking those risks of wandering into dark places. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 24 2018 05:26 Kinie wrote: Let's also keep in mind that for both EU and NA, you weren't even allowed to get hyped for your region unless they made it to semis for the past 5 years because of how dominant KR and eventually CN became. Probably the biggest change for KR that I think they are still adjusting to is the increasing removal of vision in League. Trinket wards still don't last as long as old green ones, and the removal of the jungle ward item basically deligates all warding to the support, and they are basically spending all their gold on pinks for the first15 minutes of the game once they get their ward item. This screwed over KR's macro gameplay very hard, which was reliant on lighting up the section of the map they were looking to invade/fight in 2-ish minutes ahead of time. Now the map is liable to have a bunch of dead zones for camping to occur at, and they've not adjusted to it. Compare this to NA and EU (and even CN) who have always lacked on their macro vision, but are used to taking those risks of wandering into dark places. I've read this or something similar a few times now. It's something that sounds so reasonable but I can't help think it's a bit excuse seeking. KT and KZ are some of the most early fighting focused teams in the Korea. They may not match the the aggression of CN but they certainly never required slow vision setups to create their advantages. Instead KT had a strong early game snowball type focus with Score "battle warding". Griffin is another similar team that instead of early game required mid game teamfighting to secure their leads. They opted into mid game fights when they knew they had power spikes regardless of vision setups. All 3 of these teams still worked around solid macro. The same as how all teams at worlds still have good macro setups. GenG and to and extend AFS are pretty slow teams risk adverse teams. That's fair to say. GenG managed to run through the gauntlet through mostly slumping teams. Their performance was always in question, especially since they showed their hand with masking Crown against Griffin on Liss. AFS really fell off towards the end of the season and are in mostly due to the rest of the LCK dipping and Griffin playing a bit of spoiler. Overall the LCK teams weren't performing particularly well in their own region going into Worlds outside of KT. KT just happened to be the LCK team that looked the best. Losing a nailbitingly close series vs IG isn't some big alarm. They are a great team and if they played another 5 matches the results would most likely be even. A final thought, the notion that macro plays and full vision are linked is just plain wrong. One of the key fundamentals of any(most) RTS game is dealing with incomplete information. Making reads on your opponents due to what you can see, what you can't see and some intuition. I dislike this implication that just because there is slightly less vision it means teams suddenly playing more "stupid" or "refined". When Jaedong makes a read to stop a sick 2 base all in without perfect vision he's a god. When a league team makes a read to start a fight without vision they are seen as "animal". It's as if map/game sense is just not viewed as a skill of league players anymore. Fucking Monte. | ||
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nineninja9
United States194 Posts
On October 23 2018 22:23 DarkCore wrote: Outside of KT, the KR teams looked pretty lackluster. The characteristic macro was not there, and they seemed incredibly shaky in so many basic parts of the game. I don't even think they disrespected their opponents, they just looked inferior. Gen.G was awful and got placed in the worst group possible, AF recovered but still looked worse than C9, and KT lost what I think is the saddest series of the entire orgs existence. On the other hand the CN hype this year, myself included, got absolutely stomped, way harder than ever before. When KR beat CN, people were like 'guess KR is still invincible'. Two CN teams got taken out by Western teams instead, and all 3 teams got a nice beating in groups. I'm pretty sure for the CN player base that's got to hurt so bad, because now the West has a legit chance to claim that glory instead of what they thought was rightfully theirs. If G2 beat iG I don't think my heart will be able to take it. Even in previous worlds non-Korean teams could get leads pre-15 minutes, it was just that eventually they would lose based off of map movements. It just turns out that now stalling out is a bit harder and KR teams couldn't handle early-mid game pressure anymore. The only real EU>CN upset was G2 beating RNG. I don't think anybody expected EDG to beat FNC reliably. Even pre-tournament people were already salty they made it to worlds over JDG/RW, nobody would have been surprised if they got knocked out. RNG I suspect had a terrible meta read. Even as recently as MSI we saw Letme/Xiaohu play champions that aren't tank/cc bots (probably 50% of their win over KZ was due to them being able flex Vlad/Aatrox to either solo lane and dominate with it, the rest was bot difference), this worlds they believed they were the better team playing the way they did and realized too late it no longer works. Maybe it really was due to scrimming too many passive Korean teams (and also FW if the rumors are true), who really knows. Even then it's hard to tell whether it really was just bad pick ban or something deeper to do with individual player skill levels; I'm honestly not sure if I've ever seen RNG's solo laners play so terribly internationally before. Letme usually doesn't lose lane as hard on tank duty as he did this tournament and Xiaohu is usually good at staying even in skill matchups and then teamfights better, but I guess playing tanks into stuff like Akali/Irelia might just be way harder than the lanes they're used to. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
This is the least predictable time ever. Not just the quality of a team, but also the chance they would win a game. I dont think teams had bad reads. RNG-Lucian was clearly not terrible, for instance. The issue is that the game currently being played is not normal. Maybe. Maybe KR is just trash now because almost all players are vets. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
EDG were clearly the inferior team in their series. They would get gold leads and kills, but got outmacroed so incredibly hard. FNC even had an arguably more talented roster if you value Bwipo and Broxah higher than their counterparts. If you had told me FNC was from KR, I would've believed you, because this is basically the way KR teams primarily beat everyone every season until the previous one. RNG vs G2 was about disrespect. I think RNG went in with the mindset that they could do everything better, and that their botlane would blow a big hole open in the game. I didn't see any specific counterdrafting to G2 or crazy surprise strats, they left Aatrox open a whopping 4 times (although only once did the champ really go off), and I was really surprised they tried out Lucian 3 times. The champ can work, but it relies on getting an early advantage and Uzi playing perfectly, neither which happened. 1 game is a pocket strat, three games suggests they legit thought G2 would crumble to the pressure, and gambled on it. Even in previous worlds non-Korean teams could get leads pre-15 minutes, it was just that eventually they would lose based off of map movements. It just turns out that now stalling out is a bit harder and KR teams couldn't handle early-mid game pressure anymore. While true, the real juggernauts of KR (SKT, SSW, ROX, NJBS) were able to win most laning phases or at least break even. Rarely did they ever get demolished in the first 15 minutes to the point of no return. The last two or three seasons this hasn't been the case anymore, and they have looked a lot shakier ever since. | ||
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Poopi
France12911 Posts
On October 23 2018 22:23 DarkCore wrote: Outside of KT, the KR teams looked pretty lackluster. The characteristic macro was not there, and they seemed incredibly shaky in so many basic parts of the game. I don't even think they disrespected their opponents, they just looked inferior. Gen.G was awful and got placed in the worst group possible, AF recovered but still looked worse than C9, and KT lost what I think is the saddest series of the entire orgs existence. On the other hand the CN hype this year, myself included, got absolutely stomped, way harder than ever before. When KR beat CN, people were like 'guess KR is still invincible'. Two CN teams got taken out by Western teams instead, and all 3 teams got a nice beating in groups. I'm pretty sure for the CN player base that's got to hurt so bad, because now the West has a legit chance to claim that glory instead of what they thought was rightfully theirs. If G2 beat iG I don't think my heart will be able to take it. EU has been better than CN for years tho (remember fnatic 2015, poor EDG), why would that suddenly change? | ||
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scrubtastic
1166 Posts
I think Xiaohu vs Perkz was a bad enough mismatch to cause RNG problems. Personally though, I place a lot of the blame on Uzi playing badly enough to give G2 two of their wins. + Show Spoiler [Uzi screws up Game 2] + 1) Early game is going RNG's way and they get Uzi nicely ahead. RNG finds and tries to collapse on Wunder. Uzi, wandering off by himself, gets caught by Irelia + Gragas and baits his support into getting killed alongside him. The collapse on Wunder fails hard. G2 2-0 in kills from that 2) Later in the game, Wunder gets picked off. RNG, now 5v4, attempt to take out Perkz next to the Baron. G2 joins up to fight 4v5 in the jungle. With the help of a good Varus ulti, G2 gets some people low but not enough to win the fight. Uzi, on 30 percent HP, fucking facechecks a jungle brush with no vision of Irelia + Gragas. This ends predictably, and now the fight is looking a lot better for G2. RNG starts running away. Wunder, freshly revived, does a teleport flank. RNG transitions from getting aced to losing baron, their base and the game. + Show Spoiler [Uzi screws up Game 5] + 1) G2 with Leblanc + early game comp actually get off to a very, very good start. Uzi on Sivir repeatedly gets blocked from picking up lanterns and goes 1/4/0. One death was from Uzi using spellshield for mana, and then not having it available for the actual gank a few seconds later. Another death was from Uzi walking straight into a Jhin snare -> Leblanc kill, then Letme using Sion ult to try and hit Leblanc and then dying for nothing. 2) Later on, G2 start getting outscaled despite still holding a 10k gold lead and RNG begins to take kills and push G2 away from objectives. G2 does get a baron and does their 1-3-1 splitpush in front of RNG's base. RNG is looking harder and harder to kill. Hjarnan Jhin, as part of the 3, walks closer to Sivir to poke her with autos. RNG decide to engage. Uzi, in an amazing display of ADC positioning and decisionmaking, walks into melee range and trades autos with the GA'ed ADC. Hjarnan gets his GA popped, but not before Uzi gets dropped to 20 percent HP. Before Uzi can run back far enough, Jankos Olaf flashes on top of him for the kill and the fed Leblanc comes in to destroy everyone else. RNG loses their nexus soon afterward. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 25 2018 18:50 Poopi wrote: EU has been better than CN for years tho (remember fnatic 2015, poor EDG), why would that suddenly change? ???? S2 EU performed better because M5 beat iG directly in quarters. S3 Fnatic lost to Royal in semis. S4 all 3 Chinese teams got out of groups and 0 EU teams did. S5 EU was better by getting 2 teams out of groups and into Semis, with EDG falling to Fnatic in quarters. S6 China got 2 teams out of groups and met Korea in quarters while EU had H2K which got a lucky draw with ANX so they could get to semis S7 2 Chinese teams got to semis, one beating FNC directly in quarters. Over this time, China has also won 2 MSI to EU's 0. EU being better than China "for years" has never been true. On October 25 2018 17:06 DarkCore wrote: Think CN and KR got the meta right, but bought into the OP champion hype (Kai'Sa especially) too much. 17 of Kai'Sa's 40 games were played by Jackey, Deft and iBoy, Kramer and Uzi have also played her a few times. She is currently sitting on a 45% win rate, and it's because Western teams have shown she can be beaten, either by quick games or by drafting a Sivir comp that owns her in late fights. EDG were clearly the inferior team in their series. They would get gold leads and kills, but got outmacroed so incredibly hard. FNC even had an arguably more talented roster if you value Bwipo and Broxah higher than their counterparts. If you had told me FNC was from KR, I would've believed you, because this is basically the way KR teams primarily beat everyone every season until the previous one. RNG vs G2 was about disrespect. I think RNG went in with the mindset that they could do everything better, and that their botlane would blow a big hole open in the game. I didn't see any specific counterdrafting to G2 or crazy surprise strats, they left Aatrox open a whopping 4 times (although only once did the champ really go off), and I was really surprised they tried out Lucian 3 times. The champ can work, but it relies on getting an early advantage and Uzi playing perfectly, neither which happened. 1 game is a pocket strat, three games suggests they legit thought G2 would crumble to the pressure, and gambled on it. While true, the real juggernauts of KR (SKT, SSW, ROX, NJBS) were able to win most laning phases or at least break even. Rarely did they ever get demolished in the first 15 minutes to the point of no return. The last two or three seasons this hasn't been the case anymore, and they have looked a lot shakier ever since. Thorin had a more recent episode where Loco and LS argued about why Korea looked so bad this year. Loco is pretty adamant that the lose of Smitestone really hurt the Korean playstyle. | ||
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