They lost game 4 because their comp sold out hard on protecting their ADC, but then they picked an ADC that isn't a hyper carry and it fell behind early. I was yelling at the TV "Twitch" over and over again when Cait/Kog were banned in phase 2. It was the only correct pick at that point.

GrandInquisitor

New York City13113 Posts

April 24 2017 13:02 GMT

#223

On April 24 2017 19:17 Gahlo wrote:
They lost game 4 because their comp sold out hard on protecting their ADC, but then they picked an ADC that isn't a hyper carry and it fell behind early. I was yelling at the TV "Twitch" over and over again when Cait/Kog were banned in phase 2. It was the only correct pick at that point.

They also got mindgamed hard by the Gragas. Thinking it was top, they decided to go with Nautilus into Gragas instead of Shen into Gragas. Instead, C9 flexed Gragas support and took Shen for themselves. If TSM knew that it was going to be Gragas support and that C9 had yet to pick their top laner, they surely would not have went for Nautilus over Shen.

Still, the "protect the Lucian" comp has been done before, and it almost worked this series. Sneaky flashing into the bush to deny vision of the last AA probably won them that game because it snowballed bot irrevocably in their favor. Imagine if that first blood goes to Lucian instead.

Gahlo

United States35153 Posts

April 24 2017 13:12 GMT

#224

On April 24 2017 22:02 GrandInquisitor wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah, I've seen Lucian comps before, but I haven't seen them where the jungle position is sold out for it too - which puts even more onus on the ADC. I also mentioned the FB, albeit indirectly, by noting it fell behind.

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

April 24 2017 22:01 GMT

#225

I suppose the old "protect your 5th best player" comp plan also wasn't wise.

dsyxelic

United States1417 Posts

April 24 2017 22:28 GMT

#226

tsm did get tricked but I don't think it was as bad.

tsm never really wanted shen anyways. shen into gragas is still a fine matchup and shen is the better champ right now. hauntzer/tsm has just not preferred the shen lately and would rather play naut in not losing matchups (ex. like grag vs naut). if they knew the shen was top they probably would have picked renekton or something. c9 knew this so they just bait out the naut and get the winning matchup in shen vs naut.

normally this wouldn't really be worth (especially if you can get the shen anyways) because you generally would rather have a better support and an even matchup top tank than a weaker lane bot with winning top tank but in this case where top was the lane c9 was generally getting snowballed on by hauntzer/sven I think it was a smart move to put some power there.

it was a good adapatation by c9 but don't think the impact (heh) was as big as it would seem and don't really blame tsm for falling for it. if we HAD to blame I would just blame them for not getting their shen better but thats a different story.

GrandInquisitor

New York City13113 Posts

April 24 2017 23:05 GMT

#227

If that's really the case then that bodes very poorly for them at MSI. You can't go to an international tournament and just not play one of the most contested top laners - especially when it's a top laner with a global map pressure, because whenever champs like Shen/TF are remotely viable they're always super contested in pro play. And outside maybe Gangplank there isn't really an adequate substitute for Shen.

dsyxelic

United States1417 Posts

April 25 2017 01:36 GMT

#228

they play it but only twice the last 2 months and didn't seem that strong in hauntzer's hands both times. so yes that was a bit concerning given the strength of shen in the recent patch. however I'm not as worried because I know hauntzer was able to play shen (he did before) so I'm not sure if tsm were just like meh we played only 2 shen games in the last 2 months and it sucked so lets just not focus on it. which isn't the greatest but I doubt its hauntzer saying that he can't play it or saying he doesn't want to.

also the shen nerfs were quite large for the 7.8 patch (which MSI will be played on) so I highly doubt shen will be a priority pick anymore for the time being. so this will probably be a non-issue there.

ticklishmusic

United States15977 Posts

April 25 2017 01:37 GMT

#229

i'm 99% sure that hauntzer has played shen before, i think TSM just put lower priority on it (than they should have)

Gahlo

United States35153 Posts

April 25 2017 04:14 GMT

#230

Hauntzer played Shen 6 times this split with a 4-2 record. The wins coming against Dig, C9, NV, and P1 while the losses were IMT and EF.

dsyxelic

United States1417 Posts

April 25 2017 21:02 GMT

#231

On April 25 2017 13:14 Gahlo wrote:
Hauntzer played Shen 6 times this split with a 4-2 record. The wins coming against Dig, C9, NV, and P1 while the losses were IMT and EF.

yes we know he played it in the past without much problems which is why it's strange

also for context 66% on a champ is his 2nd lowest. the lowest being his 0% 0-1 gangplank. so it's not really unreasonable to assume TSM and/or hauntzer just didn't want to use shen last patch. they never really seemed to want to shen last patch even when open when most other teams would take it.