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nimdil
Poland3751 Posts
On May 09 2016 09:00 Slusher wrote: so even with LMS getting a t1 seed they still get 1 less invite? I mean I'd prefer to see more of Europe and I've heard lms is topheavy but that does seem weird. It would be weird if G2 was playing for - probably - someone else's spot, wouldn't it? | ||
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ParadeofMadness
United Kingdom1027 Posts
On May 09 2016 12:25 cLutZ wrote: CLG vs. TSM being so close is why no one believed in CLG. They were winning with very smart pre-20 plans, and holding on for dear life the rest of the game because DLift and Bjergson were vastly outperforming Huhi and Stixxay. Thus people assumed that SKT, RNG, G2, and FW would be able to do the same to CLG mid-late and also not lose 100% of the earlygame macro. I actually think much of the narrative is true, except CLG also seems to understand this new meta (into lategame) better so their comps have been built on the assumption of a smart earlygame and scaling. Also, Xsmithy has been onpoint with smite which has given them some unexpected advantages. Its yet to be seen if CLG is MSI's C9 and their advantage evaporates, or if they can keep their comp and earlygame advantages. Not sure what you have been smoking. Against SKT and RNG, CLG won by being better in the late game while losing the mid and early game. Stixxay is the best adc of the tourney as well (at both MSI and finals). Plus Bjergsen had pretty much no impact outside of lane. You want to dispute this? Pull up Gold Difference over time stats for MSI, and Damage Dealt Stats (Stixxay outdamaged Doublelift in all 5 games) and then lets talk. | ||
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nimdil
Poland3751 Posts
On May 09 2016 16:37 ParadeofMadness wrote: Not sure what you have been smoking. Against SKT and RNG, CLG won by being better in the late game while losing the mid and early game. Stixxay is the best adc of the tourney as well (at both MSI and finals). Plus Bjergsen had pretty much no impact outside of lane. You want to dispute this? Pull up Gold Difference over time stats for MSI, and Damage Dealt Stats (Stixxay outdamaged Doublelift in all 5 games) and then lets talk. I have similar observation regarding Bjergsen. Fantastic laning stats yet he doesn't like to fully commit in the team fights so unless he is already significantly ahead, he does not deliver as much damage as his counterpart in the middle of teeam fight. I'm not sure if Stixxay is really best or just CLG is playing around him so he looks best, but he is definitely top dog and CLG's pillar. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Basically your tanks scale early and mages scale mid so the enemy AD never gets to late. CLG has decided that they're going to get their AD to late game anyway and just focus on peeling. Which is very strong with weak assassins, easy AD clear (Lucian/runnans), and few early non-tower objectives. That being said stixxay somehow manages to farm all the creeps while still making it to team fights. Which is impressive. Remember that CLG tried this before with double lift a few seasons ago and lift was always too busy farming in order to be effective. So a little of column a a little of column b. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
He's doing an amazing job with the leads he's given, but at the same time his entire team is selling out to put him in that position. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
But we're talking like 1-2 CS per minute. Is that really selling out? At 30 minutes that's perhaps a BF sword and a long sword. So if that gold were on Xmithie and Huhi, you'd get like maybe a Needlessly Large Rod and a long sword if the gold allocation split up nicely? When you put it on paper like that and ask "which would you want more" I'd really hesitate to ever pick the NLR side. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On May 09 2016 20:36 zer0das wrote: Not sure I buy that narrative. Darshan was often quite behind on gold due to his own poor CSing. And indeed, his CS per minute was by far the worst of all top laners. I suppose Huhi and Xmithie had lower farm than their peers and it probably wasn't due to poor CSing in their cases. But we're talking like 1-2 CS per minute. Is that really selling out? At 30 minutes that's perhaps a BF sword and a long sword. So if that gold were on Xmithie and Huhi, you'd get like maybe a Needlessly Large Rod and a long sword if the gold allocation split up nicely? When you put it on paper like that and ask "which would you want more" I'd really hesitate to ever pick the NLR side. Look at their team comps. Every single one of them is focused on keeping Stixxay alive and having him clean up fights. There's a reason he has close to 80% KP this tournament. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 09 2016 20:36 zer0das wrote: Not sure I buy that narrative. Darshan was often quite behind on gold due to his own poor CSing. And indeed, his CS per minute was by far the worst of all top laners. I suppose Huhi and Xmithie had lower farm than their peers and it probably wasn't due to poor CSing in their cases. But we're talking like 1-2 CS per minute. Is that really selling out? At 30 minutes that's perhaps a BF sword and a long sword. So if that gold were on Xmithie and Huhi, you'd get like maybe a Needlessly Large Rod and a long sword if the gold allocation split up nicely? When you put it on paper like that and ask "which would you want more" I'd really hesitate to ever pick the NLR side. Darshan will sacrifice farm for Stixxay, so low CS numbers from him aren't particularly indicative. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On May 10 2016 05:19 Goumindong wrote: Darshan will sacrifice farm for Stixxay, so low CS numbers from him aren't particularly indicative. I think they are to a degree. That being said he picked the losing / even lanes for teamfight presence almost every game. | ||
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phongluu
Vietnam1 Post
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
Observations: Day 3, CLG vs SKT: Darshan fell extremely far behind on CS on his own, in a 1v1. At 10 minutes he was down 45-71, and no farm allocation decisions had really been made as far as I can tell. At 20 minutes, he was down 117-150, at 30 minutes he was down 193-228. So for almost the entire game, the bulk of the CS difference between Duke and Darshan was generated in the first 10 minutes of the game and never really changed (until 35-40 minutes, at which point Duke got a whole crap ton of CS due a huge wave building up in bot while CLG was threatening baron). The rest of CLG were slightly behind their SKT counterparts besides Stixxay, but it wasn't significant enough to really draw anything from it. Day 1, CLG vs FW: Okay, this game Darshan's CS rate drops like a rock from 15-20 minutes. He went from 113-111 at minutes to 138-176. So I went back and looked at what happened. Darshan made a teleport play, and CLG pushed bot tower down and then continued to siege the bot secondary. This whole time, MMD was farming top and then bot lane (~4 minutes). In fact, Huhi's CS numbers suffered at the exact same time, though not as substantially because he was already there. Day 2, CLG vs G2: This game probably screwed up the aggregate statistics of all 10 games by itself. G2 fell really far behind, and CLG was just pushing lanes as fast as they could. Stixxay happened to be the best wave clearer, so he ended the game up 50 CS on his counterpart, while Darshan and Huhi's CS numbers suffered. Of course, they were also knocking down turrets at an extremely rapid rate, so I don't think the farm allocation had much to do with CLG winning this game. The rest of the games I looked at, I see no evidence for CLG "selling out" to get Stixxay huge in the CS numbers. Their numbers are all comparable to their counterparts. I would conclude Stixxay is actually really quite good or at least played out of his mind these past few days. | ||
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EsanLOL
479 Posts
On May 09 2016 23:43 Gahlo wrote: Look at their team comps. Every single one of them is focused on keeping Stixxay alive and having him clean up fights. There's a reason he has close to 80% KP this tournament. His high KP is also due to the number of 2v1/2v2/2v3 kills he and Aphro pick up in lane, whereas the other lanes usually don't get touches on kills outside of Xmithie ganks until they group. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On May 10 2016 08:12 zer0das wrote: I went through the first 3 days of CLG's games and looked at CS numbers between 10-40 minutes in 5 minute intervals (I'd do the last 2 days, but I'm tired of sifting). I think saying that CLG is selling out their team to get Stixxay ahead doesn't really have much basis. Observations: Day 3, CLG vs SKT: Darshan fell extremely far behind on CS on his own, in a 1v1. At 10 minutes he was down 45-71, and no farm allocation decisions had really been made as far as I can tell. At 20 minutes, he was down 117-150, at 30 minutes he was down 193-228. So for almost the entire game, the bulk of the CS difference between Duke and Darshan was generated in the first 10 minutes of the game and never really changed (until 35-40 minutes, at which point Duke got a whole crap ton of CS due a huge wave building up in bot while CLG was threatening baron). The rest of CLG were slightly behind their SKT counterparts besides Stixxay, but it wasn't significant enough to really draw anything from it. Day 1, CLG vs FW: Okay, this game Darshan's CS rate drops like a rock from 15-20 minutes. He went from 113-111 at minutes to 138-176. So I went back and looked at what happened. Darshan made a teleport play, and CLG pushed bot tower down and then continued to siege the bot secondary. This whole time, MMD was farming top and then bot lane (~4 minutes). In fact, Huhi's CS numbers suffered at the exact same time, though not as substantially because he was already there. Day 2, CLG vs G2: This game probably screwed up the aggregate statistics of all 10 games by itself. G2 fell really far behind, and CLG was just pushing lanes as fast as they could. Stixxay happened to be the best wave clearer, so he ended the game up 50 CS on his counterpart, while Darshan and Huhi's CS numbers suffered. Of course, they were also knocking down turrets at an extremely rapid rate, so I don't think the farm allocation had much to do with CLG winning this game. The rest of the games I looked at, I see no evidence for CLG "selling out" to get Stixxay huge in the CS numbers. Their numbers are all comparable to their counterparts. I would conclude Stixxay is actually really quite good or at least played out of his mind these past few days. That's because the "selling out" part was concerning their mid-late game, not early. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + +/- CS, CLG member compared to their counterpart in CLG games over the first 3 days (not including supports, that information isn't particularly insightful) Darshan: 10 minutes: 0 15 minutes: +5 20 minutes: -4 25 minutes: -7 30 minutes: -4 35 minutes: -24 40 minutes: -57 Xmithie: 10 minutes: +4 15 minutes: +7 20 minutes: +8 25 minutes: +4 30 minutes: +21 35 minutes: +1 40 minutes: -9 Huhi: 10 minutes: +6 15 minutes: +10 20 minutes: +4 25 minutes: +2 30 minutes: -12 35 minutes: -20 40 minutes: +1 Stixxay: 10 minutes: +1 15 minutes: +3 20 minutes: +3 25 minutes: -2 30 minutes: +11 35 minutes: +17 40 minutes: +46 Now, first thing you notice by looking at this is holy shit, Darshan is -57 behind his fellow top laners at 40 minutes. But only 3 games I looked at went that long, and if you remove the extreme SKT game, it shrinks to -19. This partly was due to the waves being such that CLG could pick who they sent to farm because their wave was close to baron, while SKT had to send their top laner as he was the only one with teleport. I would say almost any team that had the option of choosing would go for giving it to their ADC over their top laner, so I wouldn't say CLG was "selling out" in that case so much as "opting for," at least in that situation. CLG doesn't seem to sacrifice much for Stixxay from 10-30 minutes. His teammates are collectively +5 over the competition at 30 minutes, while Stixxay is at +11. But at 35 minutes, there is a pretty noticeable dip for both Huhi and Darshan. And a massive spike for Stixxay at 40 minutes. But part of me expects that something similar will happen for most winning teams between 30-40 minutes. Unless they're super committed to a 1-3-1 push. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Other teams keep the farm priority on mid and ADs tend to slow down. | ||
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BrownBear
United States6894 Posts
IMO still SKT's tournament to lose, though. Huge difference between groups and Bo5 playoffs, and SKT is an amazing BoX team. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On May 11 2016 07:48 BrownBear wrote: CLG has already vastly outperformed expectations, and securing the top 4 was their job. Now I'm going to expect nothing vs. FW and hope to be pleasantly surprised. IMO still SKT's tournament to lose, though. Huge difference between groups and Bo5 playoffs, and SKT is an amazing BoX team. Especially since Korea's strength has always been prepared matches over group stages. | ||
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Vanka
China1336 Posts
On May 11 2016 10:07 Gahlo wrote: Especially since Korea's strength has always been prepared matches over group stages. I don't think anyone would disagree that on paper the winner of RNG vs. SKT is favoured against whoever comes out of the other bracket, putting aside fanboyism. But Korean historical advantages aside, SKT still have to deal with the question of blank's performance, especially on a stage where the audience will be overwhelmingly against them, even more so now that the chinese team's tournament run is on the line. Spicy hotpot guy's form will certainly not make the jungle matchup easier, and it's not like the chinese squad lacks for talent compared with SKT, faker or no faker. RNG has hometown advantage, and while mata and looper don't need to prove anything personally, I imagine China as a whole is eager to redeem themselves, considering how nationalistic they are. Against a team that's shown already that they can match their level of play, I wouldn't say SKT vs RNG is SKT's match to lose. Also: clg clg clg Also also: now I want to eat some spicy hotpot. | ||
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