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Dade, Mata, Gorilla, Watch, Whoever shotcalls SKT,
Hai wouldn't even make top 10, those are just the ones I can tell atm
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On March 04 2016 22:31 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 22:23 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:19 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:10 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:08 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:05 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:04 Disengaged wrote:
Seriously though, why the hell pick up Yellowstar if your not going to utilize his shotcalling ability? The democratic shotcalling can work, yes, but it hasn't been working out for TSM for a long time so its time for them to change the shotcalling. Everytime I hear TSM comms, all I hear is yelling/talking over eachother, and Yellowstar is drowned out due to the noise and cant really be heard. Have yet to see democratic shotcalling really work tbh. depends how you define it. Everyone in a play should give information and look for and spot options. Hard to criticise shot calling methods when you don't hear the mics How the fuck is giving information shotcalling?????? Saying "x used flash we can dive bot" is not fucking shotcalling. saying there is an option for a dive. Is giving an option that can then help reach a consensus. On the reverse that person can maybe block a dive if they know it won't work due to cooldown/champions or if they know the position of the enemy jungle. That is how anybody would define democratic shot calling which was your original point. Its not people voting its more a collective effort from my understanding. But that isn't fucking shotcalling that is just giving information what every single person on a good team should be doing..... Democratic shotcalling is just the poor alternative to when a team doesn't have someone who has the balls and the team's trust. Say h2k. Everyone talks and says shit but when ryu says "do x" they do x. That is what a shotcaller is. You can't be a shotcaller if you aren't the one who utlimately decides what you are going to do. Many things happen way too fast though for a single person to determine them. Or when the shotcaller is elsewhere / not looking. As in my earlier example, support says "no summs, we should dive", jungle says "ok" and does it or even says nothing and simply does it. While shot caller Ryu sits in mid lane and does nothing.
You can't expect one person to make every single individual decision for the team. Even hai doesn't tell balls when to cs. Democratic shotcalling implies everyone has the same influence.
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Poll: Who will TSM bench if they choose to?Yellowstar (12) 86% Bjergsen (2) 14% Hauntzer (0) 0% Doublelift (0) 0% Sven (0) 0% 14 total votes Your vote: Who will TSM bench if they choose to? (Vote): Hauntzer
(Vote): Bjergsen
(Vote): Doublelift
(Vote): Sven
(Vote): Yellowstar
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They should bench DL 100% I think.
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On March 04 2016 22:36 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 22:31 Redox wrote:On March 04 2016 22:23 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:19 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:10 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:08 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:05 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:04 Disengaged wrote:
Seriously though, why the hell pick up Yellowstar if your not going to utilize his shotcalling ability? The democratic shotcalling can work, yes, but it hasn't been working out for TSM for a long time so its time for them to change the shotcalling. Everytime I hear TSM comms, all I hear is yelling/talking over eachother, and Yellowstar is drowned out due to the noise and cant really be heard. Have yet to see democratic shotcalling really work tbh. depends how you define it. Everyone in a play should give information and look for and spot options. Hard to criticise shot calling methods when you don't hear the mics How the fuck is giving information shotcalling?????? Saying "x used flash we can dive bot" is not fucking shotcalling. saying there is an option for a dive. Is giving an option that can then help reach a consensus. On the reverse that person can maybe block a dive if they know it won't work due to cooldown/champions or if they know the position of the enemy jungle. That is how anybody would define democratic shot calling which was your original point. Its not people voting its more a collective effort from my understanding. But that isn't fucking shotcalling that is just giving information what every single person on a good team should be doing..... Democratic shotcalling is just the poor alternative to when a team doesn't have someone who has the balls and the team's trust. Say h2k. Everyone talks and says shit but when ryu says "do x" they do x. That is what a shotcaller is. You can't be a shotcaller if you aren't the one who utlimately decides what you are going to do. Many things happen way too fast though for a single person to determine them. Or when the shotcaller is elsewhere / not looking. As in my earlier example, support says "no summs, we should dive", jungle says "ok" and does it or even says nothing and simply does it. While shot caller Ryu sits in mid lane and does nothing. You can't expect one person to make every single individual decision for the team. Even hai doesn't tell balls when to cs. Democratic shotcalling implies everyone has the same influence.
no it doesn't. Your using a different definition to the one from other people in this thread.
Democracy, or democratic government, is "a system of government in which all the people of a state or polity ... are involved in making decisions about its affairs, typically by voting to elect representatives to a parliament or similar assembly," as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary.
please underline the world same or one similar in that definition
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On March 04 2016 22:38 Ansibled wrote:
They should bench DL 100% I think.
got the feeling TSM won't do that even its right. :/
Sven and yellow taking import slots is another thing they could take as a reason.
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On March 04 2016 22:36 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 22:31 Redox wrote:On March 04 2016 22:23 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:19 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:10 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:08 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:05 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:04 Disengaged wrote:
Seriously though, why the hell pick up Yellowstar if your not going to utilize his shotcalling ability? The democratic shotcalling can work, yes, but it hasn't been working out for TSM for a long time so its time for them to change the shotcalling. Everytime I hear TSM comms, all I hear is yelling/talking over eachother, and Yellowstar is drowned out due to the noise and cant really be heard. Have yet to see democratic shotcalling really work tbh. depends how you define it. Everyone in a play should give information and look for and spot options. Hard to criticise shot calling methods when you don't hear the mics How the fuck is giving information shotcalling?????? Saying "x used flash we can dive bot" is not fucking shotcalling. saying there is an option for a dive. Is giving an option that can then help reach a consensus. On the reverse that person can maybe block a dive if they know it won't work due to cooldown/champions or if they know the position of the enemy jungle. That is how anybody would define democratic shot calling which was your original point. Its not people voting its more a collective effort from my understanding. But that isn't fucking shotcalling that is just giving information what every single person on a good team should be doing..... Democratic shotcalling is just the poor alternative to when a team doesn't have someone who has the balls and the team's trust. Say h2k. Everyone talks and says shit but when ryu says "do x" they do x. That is what a shotcaller is. You can't be a shotcaller if you aren't the one who utlimately decides what you are going to do. Many things happen way too fast though for a single person to determine them. Or when the shotcaller is elsewhere / not looking. As in my earlier example, support says "no summs, we should dive", jungle says "ok" and does it or even says nothing and simply does it. While shot caller Ryu sits in mid lane and does nothing. You can't expect one person to make every single individual decision for the team. Even hai doesn't tell balls when to cs. Democratic shotcalling implies everyone has the same influence.
If you define it like that then there are literally zero teams with democratic shotcalling and the discussion is pointless.
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On March 04 2016 22:29 Disengaged wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 22:26 Ansibled wrote:On March 04 2016 22:22 Disengaged wrote:On March 04 2016 22:21 Gahlo wrote:On March 04 2016 22:19 Disengaged wrote:On March 04 2016 22:14 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:10 Disengaged wrote:On March 04 2016 22:08 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:05 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:04 Disengaged wrote:
Seriously though, why the hell pick up Yellowstar if your not going to utilize his shotcalling ability? The democratic shotcalling can work, yes, but it hasn't been working out for TSM for a long time so its time for them to change the shotcalling. Everytime I hear TSM comms, all I hear is yelling/talking over eachother, and Yellowstar is drowned out due to the noise and cant really be heard. Have yet to see democratic shotcalling really work tbh. depends how you define it. Everyone in a play should give information and look for and spot options. Hard to criticise shot calling methods when you don't hear the mics We've heard how TSM does their shotcalling through numerous "Mic checks" though. They shout over one another while Yellowstar can barely be heard through it all shot calling is not managing a tf. Macro play has nothing to do with how a team fight is played out. You could have beautiful calling during a tf and still be a clown fiesta and vise versa. The mic checks you see in riots stuff makes for a nice 5 minute video but doesn't really give much insight. A better example would be the mic check on SKT a while back where they are planning mores for the next minute talking about rengar ulti and what is there plan. Well, I mean, compare the TSM mic checks during team fights and C9 teaming fighting. Hai is the person giving the orders. Saying who to kill, when to back off, when to switch targets, while everyone else is giving small information like whether someone used a summoner, or if an ability is on CD. That kind of information lets Hai decide the best course of action while fights are breaking out. To be fair, Hai is one of the best shot callers in the world. This is true. No. No, it's not. Can deny it all you want but it doesn't change anything.
It's difficult to determine that without Hai playing a few years for other teams. For me it looks more like the rest of C9 are too dependent on him and can't think for themselves compared to the players on other top teams. I don't think CLG or IMT would become better with Hai playing for them, because they have multiple people that know what to do.
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So a team that has 1 person who always decides 50 minutes in what they will do and other people who ask for ganks and call summoners/ward positions has democratic shotcalling. Good to know. 
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On March 04 2016 22:38 Ansibled wrote:
They should bench DL 100% I think.
They should, but they won't.
Btw based on the leaked voice comms on reddit it seems that Bjergsen is the main shotcaller with YS as second caller. So If you're not going to utilize YS as the main caller you may as well bench him.
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This time waste is literally as bad as Shanghai Dota.
Two hours for one game.
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Thought Experiment:
If TSM had bought huni, reignover and yellowstar in the offseason, TSM would be first place even with wildturtle.
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On March 04 2016 22:33 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 22:29 Naphal wrote:On March 04 2016 22:23 Mensol wrote:On March 04 2016 22:21 Gahlo wrote:On March 04 2016 22:19 Disengaged wrote:On March 04 2016 22:14 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:10 Disengaged wrote:On March 04 2016 22:08 MuddyJam wrote:On March 04 2016 22:05 nafta wrote:On March 04 2016 22:04 Disengaged wrote:
Seriously though, why the hell pick up Yellowstar if your not going to utilize his shotcalling ability? The democratic shotcalling can work, yes, but it hasn't been working out for TSM for a long time so its time for them to change the shotcalling. Everytime I hear TSM comms, all I hear is yelling/talking over eachother, and Yellowstar is drowned out due to the noise and cant really be heard. Have yet to see democratic shotcalling really work tbh. depends how you define it. Everyone in a play should give information and look for and spot options. Hard to criticise shot calling methods when you don't hear the mics We've heard how TSM does their shotcalling through numerous "Mic checks" though. They shout over one another while Yellowstar can barely be heard through it all shot calling is not managing a tf. Macro play has nothing to do with how a team fight is played out. You could have beautiful calling during a tf and still be a clown fiesta and vise versa. The mic checks you see in riots stuff makes for a nice 5 minute video but doesn't really give much insight. A better example would be the mic check on SKT a while back where they are planning mores for the next minute talking about rengar ulti and what is there plan. Well, I mean, compare the TSM mic checks during team fights and C9 teaming fighting. Hai is the person giving the orders. Saying who to kill, when to back off, when to switch targets, while everyone else is giving small information like whether someone used a summoner, or if an ability is on CD. That kind of information lets Hai decide the best course of action while fights are breaking out. To be fair, Hai is one of the best shot callers in the world. So is Yellowstar. problem is, if nobody listens, does he make a sound? If you put Hai on this TSM, nobody would listen him as well. the loudest on making the calls on current TSM, and no way your voice going over Bjergsen and DL screaming lol. Hai is one of the best shotcaller ever played this game.
Wow. I feel old. I read the exact same "west is the best" fanboyism in S2 before Asia came into the picture and showed how bad everyone (except a few European teams) were mediocre.
I hope YS gets sent home ASAP because the ass-licking he gets from some of you is unbearable. You don't even know who called what in TSM today, but surely he is not to blame. Then again, who knows, maybe his shotcalling is the exact opposite of his actual gameplay, which would mean he's the best shotcaller in the universe. (After Hai, of course)
Zzz, TSM games bringing the tensions. I really hope they will never fade away; it'd be boring.
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Wouldn't you love it if China went up in flames here too?
@Azarkon
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On March 04 2016 22:38 Ansibled wrote:
They should bench DL 100% I think.
Nah, they bought him for streaming and selling shirts and that's exactly what his doing
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On March 04 2016 22:41 nafta wrote:So a team that has 1 person who always decides 50 minutes in what they will do and other people who ask for ganks and call summoners/ward positions has democratic shotcalling. Good to know.
yes. Seeing are that 1% of games that goes it 50mins+. But again your making a straw man and ignoring what people are giving you in feedback. This games is mostly about rotations, side wave management etc. You need a collectively input from people. Case and point by your logic:
you define the shotcalling based on who makes a very specific call which rarely comes up and is mostly defined for them based on other elements like scaling (for a 50mins game one team will generally always win a tf).
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On March 04 2016 22:47 Azarkon wrote:
This time waste is literally as bad as Shanghai Dota.
Two hours for one game.
Well that is one way to generate more viewer hours when you are only allowed to host a limited number of games.
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Any word on why the 2nd game hasn't started? Shanghai Dota delays haven't been as bad as they were last week at least. Weird how the CSGO part of ESL seems to run pretty smoothly.
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On March 04 2016 22:48 Skitter wrote:
Wouldn't you love it if China went up in flames here too?
@Azarkon
I think they already did when they made all their teams import Koreans.
But the fact that this tournament is taking as long for a game as Shanghai makes me think that we were a bit too hard on China for that.
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On March 04 2016 22:49 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 22:47 Azarkon wrote:
This time waste is literally as bad as Shanghai Dota.
Two hours for one game. Well that is one way to generate more viewer hours when you are only allowed to host a limited number of games.
Don't assume conspiracy for what can be easily explained by incompetence.
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EPT
