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On April 15 2015 14:25 cLutZ wrote:
I'd actually rather see iG, because Rookie/Kakao is the best jungle/mid combo in the LPL, and I haven't gotten to see it ever seriously face against Faker/Benji. Also, T0M is looking very good in the tank meta. He seems to be the only jungler that understands that the other jungler does no damage, so you can be super reckless as long as your closest lane can support you mildly.
Rookie/Kakao best jungle/mid combo in LPL for sure, except Clearlove/Pawn are 7-0 against them.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
that sej smite vs. 2 smites on EP :o
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On April 15 2015 14:30 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 10:08 cLutZ wrote:On April 15 2015 09:14 TheYango wrote:
ChinaTalk has always been pretty wrong, but that doesn't mean U wasn't good or that you're right calling Namei the "super carry" of EDG. Thats not what I am saying. My entire point is that basically, there is this "China Dilemma" that a ton of people have succumbed to. 1. You love Namei. You think he's great. You've always said he's the #1 ADC in China (maybe the world), and the guy who really made EDG what it was. Sure, he didn't do well at Worlds, but there was that weird rumor about him, plus small sample size. 2. But wait, hes not on EDG anymore, and now EDG is even better than when he was on it. And it would seem that its because these 2 new Koreans are awesome. 3. You reject the obvious explanation and look for something "more chinese" to explain it. So now you hype up Koro1 and Clearlove. Then we get this series, and instead of just saying "Yep, I was wrong about that." Instead you claim that EDG was trolling itself in the U games and if they had just done what you wanted they would have done the same thing. And they follow the same pattern over and over. That's just my problem. Except that Clearlove/Koro1/Meiko legitimately carried games when PawN/Deft don't show up. Take the recent EDG vs. VG series for example. When you're accusing of people overhyping Chinese players, it's pretty damn obvious that you conveniently not talk about games when the Koreans underperform and when Spirit/Dandy got out-jungled, which actually happened quite often. No one was denying Pawn/Deft are upgrades to U/Namei, for god's sake these two are best players in the world along with faker. But to downplay what Clearlove/Koro1 did throughout this season is just ridiculous.
That is just how teams work. Dyrus and Wildturtle carry TSM in games even though Bjergson/Lustboy are their best players. Sometimes Faker feeds (but he always, amazinglyv stays relevant, thats why he is the best) and Marin or Bang carries. This is an irrelevant comment. Any competent pro player will carry games.
On April 15 2015 14:33 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 14:25 cLutZ wrote:
I'd actually rather see iG, because Rookie/Kakao is the best jungle/mid combo in the LPL, and I haven't gotten to see it ever seriously face against Faker/Benji. Also, T0M is looking very good in the tank meta. He seems to be the only jungler that understands that the other jungler does no damage, so you can be super reckless as long as your closest lane can support you mildly. Rookie/Kakao best jungle/mid combo in LPL for sure, except Clearlove/Pawn are 7-0 against them.
You are quoting a discussion in which Pawn does not exist. But also, yes, the only Pawn/Deft are the only Korean duo to join a semi-competent team. Clearlove is not great, he is acceptable, if you not one of the people that didn't have the Jatt-China-Dilemma cognitive dissonance you would realize that.
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I'm not sure in which universe you could claim Clearlove is not great.
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On April 15 2015 15:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm not sure in which universe you could claim Clearlove is not great.
Dude didn't you see the way he used the term Jatt-China-Dilemma cognitive dissonance? He's definitely smarter than everyone and can see through Clearlove and point out his hidden weakness. I mean, it's pretty clear that although this guy carries like half of EDG's games it's obviously only because of the Koreans, and whenever he doesn't carry it's definitely his own fault. Outperforming Dandy/kakao all split? Meh doesn't matter he's still mediocre no way he's better than KR gods.
Seriously this guy genuinely believes he's smarter and more objective than everyone else. I think it's some kind of condition. Should we call it, KR Dick Sucking Syndrome?
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On April 15 2015 15:25 chosenkerrigan wrote:
Seriously this guy genuinely believes he's smarter and more objective than everyone else. I think it's some kind of condition. Should we call it, KR Dick Sucking Syndrome?
KR Dick Sucking Syndrome would be more family friendly if termed as Montecristo Syndrome.
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On April 15 2015 15:25 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 15:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm not sure in which universe you could claim Clearlove is not great. Dude didn't you see the way he used the term Jatt-China-Dilemma cognitive dissonance? He's definitely smarter than everyone and can see through Clearlove and point out his hidden weakness. I mean, it's pretty clear that although this guy carries like half of EDG's games it's obviously only because of the Koreans, and whenever he doesn't carry it's definitely his own fault. Outperforming Dandy/kakao all split? Meh doesn't matter he's still mediocre no way he's better than KR gods. Seriously this guy genuinely believes he's smarter and more objective than everyone else. I think it's some kind of condition. Should we call it, KR Dick Sucking Syndrome?
That's actually not what I was objecting to. If you hold the belief that Namei was never really that great, maybe average, and that clearlove has always been very good, that is an acceptable position (I don't agree, but it is consistent). My point was that the line of thought that has come out of mainstream chinese commentators, and parroted by many here, cannot be reconciled with this set of results.
Edit: Also I don't really think pros get significantly better, as a rule, after being in the competitive scene for a year+. I think sometimes metas make pros look better (GankedByMom #1 example). So that influences my POV. Sometimes the get more consistent (Flash), but he is a super exception that I haven't personally felt is worth applying to any LOL pro yet.
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On April 15 2015 15:40 cLutZ wrote:
Edit: Also I don't really think pros get significantly better, as a rule. I think sometimes metas make pros look better (GankedByMom #1 example). So that influences my POV.
What exactly is your basis for this? I mean look at Smeb. A change in meta doesn't do that, though admittedly he was on IM #2 before, he's gone from a Riven only player to a #1-2 top laner in KR. Look at PraY. Look at Space. Look at Chaser, or, as he was known when he was a shitter, RealFoxy. Can't really say it was a meta change for Chaser either, even though he's struggling on the recent patches, as hyper aggressive AD junglers were meta in his previous Champions seasons as well. Look at xiye and Mystic. Look at Reignover. Look at Apollo (though being on a good team probably helped more than anything there).
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
yo is anyone here actually watching the promotion series?
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On April 15 2015 15:55 419 wrote:
yo is anyone here actually watching the promotion series?
I am, I just check the threads I'm in periodically.
EDIT: Goddamn that was a pretty hyphy dive. Mad respect to drizzle for doing exactly what I would have done in solo queue in an LPL up/down match.
EDIT2: holy fuck the flash nunu ult drizzle is my new favourite jungler
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On April 15 2015 15:54 Buonomo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 15:40 cLutZ wrote:
Edit: Also I don't really think pros get significantly better, as a rule. I think sometimes metas make pros look better (GankedByMom #1 example). So that influences my POV. What exactly is your basis for this? I mean look at Smeb. A change in meta doesn't do that, though admittedly he was on IM #2 before, he's gone from a Riven only player to a #1-2 top laner in KR. Look at PraY. Look at Space. Look at Chaser, or, as he was known when he was a shitter, RealFoxy. Can't really say it was a meta change for Chaser either, even though he's struggling on the recent patches, as hyper aggressive AD junglers were meta in his previous Champions seasons as well. Look at xiye and Mystic. Look at Reignover. Look at Apollo (though being on a good team probably helped more than anything there).
I don't really think Pray or Space are examples (Pray started off really good, became inconsistent, then came back, and now is inconsistent again, space still is meh). But, I will admit I don't even fucking remember what Smeb., Apollo, xiye, mystic, or Realfoxy did when they existed in OGN Season 4. Still I do not really think either of those players are the kind of elite level that we are talking about. Those guys seem more, to me, like the Santorin/Hai model of appearing mediocre before they got a real chance on a team that didn't suck.
Some players do become better (Sneaky) but its not the kind of better I have been hearing about regarding clearlove. That would be like Hai to Dade, Dyrus to Flame, Saint to Spirit, Sirloin to Filet, or Vegeta to Goku.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i largely agree with azarkon on U, namei, casters and whatnot. there's no way EDG is #1 in china this season if they did not get the imports.
clearlove...he's lacking in the mental part of the game but good mechanically. he needs a guy like pawn, who is pretty much the best mid at decisionmaking, to work with.
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The difficulty with evaluating Clearlove has to do with the fact that this kid's never been on a team that required him to carry in the last three years. He was on the WE that had Weixiao and Misaya, for example, and then followed WE's coach to EDG when EDG was being built up to be an all-stars team, and now he's on the EDG with Pawn and Deft who obviously don't need him to carry. The skill of a player eg Spirit only became obvious when he was put on a garbage-tier WE that required him to play out of his mind just to stay in the league. Clearlove never had to deal with that sort of situation, and the one time he was called upon to carry - EDG at S4 Worlds - he failed to do so. It leaves a taste of mediocrity in people's mouths.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
game 5 boys
not sure what to think of J4 top...I like him mid better.
wait is that an elise??
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
ray 1v9 is ADG's last hope looks like
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U was the only reason EDG almost even made it to the semis past SHRC. To put him as if he's just some middling mid laner is definitely doing him a disservice.
Also for all the talk of expertise on the Chinese scene, it's often people who DON'T know the Chinese scene who tends to quote Clearlove as a mediocre jungler. Even Korean pros (including Dandy) rate Clearlove very highly as a jungler. For a long time, I will say, I was unconvinced and really unsure why but CL definitely had me convinced for this season.
Despite people claiming that China Talk/Montecristo has no actual indepth knowledge of the CN scene (which to some degree is true but I still credit them for bringing the scene more exposure to the West), it's really obvious some comments in this thread are literally just mimicking some of the things they are saying even though they are claiming the contrary.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Time for Kakao to carry iG.
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Vici with similar comp to SK T, let see how they do in mid game.
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kakao vs dandy! let's go
pretty quiet game so far
*edit* very quiet, given how long this pause is
*edit2* did i mention one pause? i meant two
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pretty quiet game so far
Yeah, everyone just farming, and now we have another terribly long pause. Real killer to the mood for a viewer.
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EPT
