|
Unfounded matchfixing accusations are not welcome. Refrain from making off-the-wall accusations without concrete evidence. |
On September 30 2014 21:20 St3MoR wrote:
60/120 I'd find quite OK tbh, some will be unplayable due to the design regardless of the meta, expect more reworks like the new Sion that make champions almost 100% new
That's funny when I heard that it was 60/120 because it really didn't feel that way to me. It just felt like the same thing over and over again.
It felt much different (and maybe I'm just looking at things differently/biased) when I watched TI4 when there was supposedly only....3/4/5 heroes that weren't even picked. I felt like the tournament had a ton of variety, whereas in these group stages the variety has just been not particularly great.
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On October 01 2014 06:38 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 21:20 St3MoR wrote:
60/120 I'd find quite OK tbh, some will be unplayable due to the design regardless of the meta, expect more reworks like the new Sion that make champions almost 100% new That's funny when I heard that it was 60/120 because it really didn't feel that way to me. It just felt like the same thing over and over again. It felt much different (and maybe I'm just looking at things differently/biased) when I watched TI4 when there was supposedly only....3/4/5 heroes that weren't even picked. I felt like the tournament had a ton of variety, whereas in these group stages the variety has just been not particularly great.
DotA has more bans, more strategies, less fixed roles and in general, DotA is way more complex than LoL, that's why.
Like, if you implement 4 more bans in LoL right now, you will see way more champions being played because of counteracts.
|
On October 01 2014 07:22 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 06:38 Zergneedsfood wrote:On September 30 2014 21:20 St3MoR wrote:
60/120 I'd find quite OK tbh, some will be unplayable due to the design regardless of the meta, expect more reworks like the new Sion that make champions almost 100% new That's funny when I heard that it was 60/120 because it really didn't feel that way to me. It just felt like the same thing over and over again. It felt much different (and maybe I'm just looking at things differently/biased) when I watched TI4 when there was supposedly only....3/4/5 heroes that weren't even picked. I felt like the tournament had a ton of variety, whereas in these group stages the variety has just been not particularly great. DotA has more bans, more strategies, less fixed roles and in general, DotA is way more complex than LoL, that's why. Like, if you implement 4 more bans in LoL right now, you will see way more champions being played because of counteracts.
Having games of 10 junglers, 10 ADC, 10 support bans, would pretty interesting. You'd see really random champs in roles.
|
On October 01 2014 07:31 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 07:22 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On October 01 2014 06:38 Zergneedsfood wrote:On September 30 2014 21:20 St3MoR wrote:
60/120 I'd find quite OK tbh, some will be unplayable due to the design regardless of the meta, expect more reworks like the new Sion that make champions almost 100% new That's funny when I heard that it was 60/120 because it really didn't feel that way to me. It just felt like the same thing over and over again. It felt much different (and maybe I'm just looking at things differently/biased) when I watched TI4 when there was supposedly only....3/4/5 heroes that weren't even picked. I felt like the tournament had a ton of variety, whereas in these group stages the variety has just been not particularly great. DotA has more bans, more strategies, less fixed roles and in general, DotA is way more complex than LoL, that's why. Like, if you implement 4 more bans in LoL right now, you will see way more champions being played because of counteracts. Having games of 10 junglers, 10 ADC, 10 support bans, would pretty interesting. You'd see really random champs in roles.
From Riot's perspective that's probably why it won't happen for quite some time still. I'll steal a line Kupon3ss likes to use: "Riot Approved Meta." While Riot has shown lee-way letting the strategies around ADC+Support/Solo/Solo/Jungle evolve and change, they still clearly push champions into those roles, and push for those roles to be pretty set in stone. While some(many? the majority? who knows) fans salivate at the idea of Blue side bans pushing some really odd role selections, Riot apparently cringes at the thought.
|
Pick diversity mostly comes down to the ban structure. Throw in an additional ban after each team has picked three champions and I think you could add another 20 champions to the list of those picked.
|
On October 01 2014 10:25 Amarok wrote:
Pick diversity mostly comes down to the ban structure. Throw in an additional ban after each team has picked three champions and I think you could add another 20 champions to the list of those picked.
I don't know man, at the end of the day you pick what is the strongest for your need regardless.
LoL just doesn't a good job with champion diversity imo.
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2014 10:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 10:25 Amarok wrote:
Pick diversity mostly comes down to the ban structure. Throw in an additional ban after each team has picked three champions and I think you could add another 20 champions to the list of those picked. I don't know man, at the end of the day you pick what is the strongest for your need regardless. LoL just doesn't a good job with champion diversity imo.
The thing is, once you take out the top X for a given role that are kind of good at everything, you open up a lot of picks because the next down the line of not-so-great picks for that role are only good at specific things, and you start needing to prioritize which things are more important for your draft. So even though 1-2 more bans per team seems like it would just move you 1 champ down the line, you eventually hit a point where that extra ban opens up like 4-5 champs.
|
On October 01 2014 10:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 10:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 01 2014 10:25 Amarok wrote:
Pick diversity mostly comes down to the ban structure. Throw in an additional ban after each team has picked three champions and I think you could add another 20 champions to the list of those picked. I don't know man, at the end of the day you pick what is the strongest for your need regardless. LoL just doesn't a good job with champion diversity imo. The thing is, once you take out the top X for a given role that are kind of good at everything, you open up a lot of picks because the next down the line of not-so-great picks for that role are only good at specific things, and you start needing to prioritize which things are more important for your draft. So even though 1-2 more bans per team seems like it would just move you 1 champ down the line, you eventually hit a point where that extra ban opens up like 4-5 champs.
Well we don't really know which champs would get picked if nobody could pick the op ones right now i guess.
Would be worth a try 
|
On October 01 2014 10:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 10:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 01 2014 10:25 Amarok wrote:
Pick diversity mostly comes down to the ban structure. Throw in an additional ban after each team has picked three champions and I think you could add another 20 champions to the list of those picked. I don't know man, at the end of the day you pick what is the strongest for your need regardless. LoL just doesn't a good job with champion diversity imo. The thing is, once you take out the top X for a given role that are kind of good at everything, you open up a lot of picks because the next down the line of not-so-great picks for that role are only good at specific things, and you start needing to prioritize which things are more important for your draft. So even though 1-2 more bans per team seems like it would just move you 1 champ down the line, you eventually hit a point where that extra ban opens up like 4-5 champs.
It would open it up across each role too. In one game you'd have supports being focused in ban phases and get the 6th/7th best support, next game it'd be the jungler, then mid etc. Throw in the counter picks you mention and the meta game would end up way more diverse. I don't think 20 is much of an exaggeration.
|
United States47024 Posts
Whatever, it's a pointless argument, because I'm pretty sure this has been brought up at Worlds every time for the last three years, and sometimes in between, and Riot hasn't done shit about it, probably for the reasons red posited.
|
On October 01 2014 10:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 10:37 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2014 10:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 01 2014 10:25 Amarok wrote:
Pick diversity mostly comes down to the ban structure. Throw in an additional ban after each team has picked three champions and I think you could add another 20 champions to the list of those picked. I don't know man, at the end of the day you pick what is the strongest for your need regardless. LoL just doesn't a good job with champion diversity imo. The thing is, once you take out the top X for a given role that are kind of good at everything, you open up a lot of picks because the next down the line of not-so-great picks for that role are only good at specific things, and you start needing to prioritize which things are more important for your draft. So even though 1-2 more bans per team seems like it would just move you 1 champ down the line, you eventually hit a point where that extra ban opens up like 4-5 champs. Well we don't really know which champs would get picked if nobody could pick the op ones right now i guess. Would be worth a try
Which is why it's nice that the tournament realm has stuck on 4.14 for so long. We'd be seeing even less champions now than if they had to keep up with the last 3 patches.
|
I wouldn't mind the narrow champion pool was a product of certain teamcomps being insanely popular, but the problem are the teamcomps are fairly generic based purely on overall strong picks.
|
On October 01 2014 12:19 wei2coolman wrote:
I wouldn't mind the narrow champion pool was a product of certain teamcomps being insanely popular, but the problem are the teamcomps are fairly generic based purely on overall strong picks.
But that's lol in a nutshell unfortunately. The only thing I remember breaking this trend was the triple support dignitas comp in S3 (even then soraka was the only non-meta champ they picked).
|
On October 01 2014 12:26 miicah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 12:19 wei2coolman wrote:
I wouldn't mind the narrow champion pool was a product of certain teamcomps being insanely popular, but the problem are the teamcomps are fairly generic based purely on overall strong picks. But that's lol in a nutshell unfortunately. The only thing I remember breaking this trend was the triple support dignitas comp in S3 (even then soraka was the only non-meta champ they picked).
kogmaw was non-meta too iirc, was only picked in serious peel comp (or dig comp).
also dig comp was the most exciting thing to watch in lol, despite how cancer it was, because it was the first time we saw use of niche champs to create a super comp no one saw coming.
|
On October 01 2014 12:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 12:26 miicah wrote:On October 01 2014 12:19 wei2coolman wrote:
I wouldn't mind the narrow champion pool was a product of certain teamcomps being insanely popular, but the problem are the teamcomps are fairly generic based purely on overall strong picks. But that's lol in a nutshell unfortunately. The only thing I remember breaking this trend was the triple support dignitas comp in S3 (even then soraka was the only non-meta champ they picked). kogmaw was non-meta too iirc, was only picked in serious peel comp (or dig comp). also dig comp was the most exciting thing to watch in lol, despite how cancer it was, because it was the first time we saw use of niche champs to create a super comp no one saw coming.
Where is the incentive to do stuff like this though?
Every time we see this innovation Riot nerfs it out of existence.
|
Wait. Are people really buying this Dada777 = OMG is playing 4v5 and Lustboy to OMG would make them a Worlds competitor? First of all, dada777 is not good, but people are buying the hype (I assume from Chinatalk now that ongamers has them?) that the rest of the team is full of great players being held back. This is just...meh.
Since winter Mandu has been worse than dada showed this tournament and Bengi was awful and sane people would take SKT against them in a 5 game set every time. Its not like Lustboy was some KR god, he is a competent player that would just cause people to complain about how the San/Lustboy botlane never does anything and Cool/Gogoing have to carry too hard.
But wait, Cool and Gogoing aren't top tier players in the world. They are world class players but not top 5 by any stretch. Its not like this is a Faker/Flame team being held back; they are Najin White Shield without carry Save, without real strategies, and with Summer Poohmandu at support.
|
On October 01 2014 13:56 cLutZ wrote:
Wait. Are people really buying this Dada777 = OMG is playing 4v5 and Lustboy to OMG would make them a Worlds competitor? First of all, dada777 is not good, but people are buying the hype (I assume from Chinatalk now that ongamers has them?) that the rest of the team is full of great players being held back. This is just...meh.
Since winter Mandu has been worse than dada showed this tournament and Bengi was awful and sane people would take SKT against them in a 5 game set every time. Its not like Lustboy was some KR god, he is a competent player that would just cause people to complain about how the San/Lustboy botlane never does anything and Cool/Gogoing have to carry too hard.
But wait, Cool and Gogoing aren't top tier players in the world. They are world class players but not top 5 by any stretch. Its not like this is a Faker/Flame team being held back they are Najin White Shield without carry Save, without real strategies, and with Summer Poohmandu at support.
dada777 is to gleeb was to tsm. Except even more so.
|
On October 01 2014 13:56 cLutZ wrote:
Wait. Are people really buying this Dada777 = OMG is playing 4v5 and Lustboy to OMG would make them a Worlds competitor? First of all, dada777 is not good, but people are buying the hype (I assume from Chinatalk now that ongamers has them?) that the rest of the team is full of great players being held back. This is just...meh.
Since winter Mandu has been worse than dada showed this tournament and Bengi was awful and sane people would take SKT against them in a 5 game set every time. Its not like Lustboy was some KR god, he is a competent player that would just cause people to complain about how the San/Lustboy botlane never does anything and Cool/Gogoing have to carry too hard.
But wait, Cool and Gogoing aren't top tier players in the world. They are world class players but not top 5 by any stretch. Its not like this is a Faker/Flame team being held back; they are Najin White Shield without carry Save, without real strategies, and with Summer Poohmandu at support.
Even bigpomelo was more useful than dada777 ... basically like kicking xpecial for gleeb.
|
On October 01 2014 13:56 cLutZ wrote:
Wait. Are people really buying this Dada777 = OMG is playing 4v5 and Lustboy to OMG would make them a Worlds competitor? First of all, dada777 is not good, but people are buying the hype (I assume from Chinatalk now that ongamers has them?) that the rest of the team is full of great players being held back. This is just...meh.
Since winter Mandu has been worse than dada showed this tournament and Bengi was awful and sane people would take SKT against them in a 5 game set every time. Its not like Lustboy was some KR god, he is a competent player that would just cause people to complain about how the San/Lustboy botlane never does anything and Cool/Gogoing have to carry too hard.
But wait, Cool and Gogoing aren't top tier players in the world. They are world class players but not top 5 by any stretch. Its not like this is a Faker/Flame team being held back; they are Najin White Shield without carry Save, without real strategies, and with Summer Poohmandu at support.
I only know I have wayyyyy too much fun watching Dada777 playing Nami.
I don't think OMG would be a championship-calibre team with Lustboy, but the possibility would be there at very least. With Dada777 the chance is a flat 0. And I say this feeling somewhat apologetic to Dada for cracking up at his play so much. >.<
On October 01 2014 20:54 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Many might not know, but xiyang is sub support for OMG right now, who knows what happens next season.
Does anyone know of any successful Mid -> Support role swaps? It happens quite frequently in competitive DotA2 but I don't think there are any in competitive League? SoloQ doesn't count. Playing one role for one or two competitive games doesn't really count either.
I only know of Mid <->ADC (Chawy), Jungle <->Support(Lovelin) and Jungle -> Mid(OhReal) role swaps that were successful, but I'm sure there's bound to be a few other role swaps; my memory isn't the best
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On October 01 2014 13:56 cLutZ wrote:
Wait. Are people really buying this Dada777 = OMG is playing 4v5 and Lustboy to OMG would make them a Worlds competitor? First of all, dada777 is not good, but people are buying the hype (I assume from Chinatalk now that ongamers has them?) that the rest of the team is full of great players being held back. This is just...meh.
Since winter Mandu has been worse than dada showed this tournament and Bengi was awful and sane people would take SKT against them in a 5 game set every time. Its not like Lustboy was some KR god, he is a competent player that would just cause people to complain about how the San/Lustboy botlane never does anything and Cool/Gogoing have to carry too hard.
But wait, Cool and Gogoing aren't top tier players in the world. They are world class players but not top 5 by any stretch. Its not like this is a Faker/Flame team being held back; they are Najin White Shield without carry Save, without real strategies, and with Summer Poohmandu at support.
Save hadn't performed in NJWS stable since his choke in OGN Spring, that's pretty ballsy call.
And Flame with all hype, is main problem of Blaze roster for soon-to-be 2 years.
+ Comparing Korean scene to Chinese at all, meh. Even with bad Mandu and mediocre Bengi, SKT T1 K swept All Stars without trying too much.
Cool and Gogoing in good mood are easily top-5 for their positions in the world though, that's pretty huge understatement.
And you probably hadn't seen OMG playing with Cloud before they promoted comA to main roster.
Allen is playing out of his mind at Worlds and san trying his hardest to not be sad, if stars align and OMG had Cloud, i would have easily called them as top-2 with those brackets but with dada777, meh.
Many might not know, but xiyang is sub support for OMG right now, who knows what happens next season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
