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SHr3DD3r
Pakistan2137 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:01 red_ wrote: Some serious fanboy going on. The gap between regions may not be as large as expected(and much of this is due to Ozone), but I have no idea where you're getting 'miles ahead' from. And so far all we have seen are Bo1s. Bo3s are a different story. | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
On September 18 2013 16:43 Iceman331 wrote: I don't see C9 dropping a BoX series to any team I have watched so far. They are miles ahead in terms of clean execution. This is as delusional as it gets. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:01 red_ wrote: Some serious fanboy going on. The gap between regions may not be as large as expected(and much of this is due to Ozone), but I have no idea where you're getting 'miles ahead' from. C9 is a lot better than TSM and TSM is scrapping it out in the group of death. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On September 18 2013 16:44 Itsmedudeman wrote: It still surprises me because Impact died to it to OMG and that was pretty much the biggest reason they ended up losing that game. Also you're up against an Elise who is king of turret diving. He said in the interview with OGN that he suspected the gank was coming, but it was already too late to back out, so he did his best given the situation. And it's a little different when you're a level 2 renek with slice and dice vs a level 1 kennen without lightning rush. As Kennen, he had nothing, absolutely nothing outside of Flash, to save himself. Renek is beefier, has an extra dash away, and a stun by level 2. Plus, if you're confident that you can dodge the cocoon, then between Corki, Sona, and Elise, they have no other CC. Of course, I wouldn't recommend that he keeps sticking around to try and survive 3v1 ganks, but in this case, it really worked out well for SKT  | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:04 Gahlo wrote: C9 is a lot better than TSM and TSM is scrapping it out in the group of death. You're really underestimating how much these teams have improved since getting here | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
They've had 2 days to watch the games and adapt to the world meta, and they showed very little of it being done. -Renekton staying against Elise in a 3v1 is absolutely retarded, and SKT has not played against a good Aatrox yet. I hope they don't get think TSM screwing up is reason to keep staying at the turret. I wonder if Impact will bring back Zac, but even he will die against Elise/Aatrox. Oh, and Meteos's Zac. -SKT screwed up wave control top. Dyrus made a boneheaded play giving up FB, but he should have frozen lane OGN-Spring-Blaze style and dare SKT to make a play elsewhere on the map. He would have easily gotten past the rough early levels of Rumble vs Renek lane, then later shove a massive wave top and roam dragon. -The lack of respect to Corki. Seriously. Piglet has shown comfort on only Vayne, Cait, and Twitch. Vayne and Twitch are almost unplayable against a good Corki right now. I was really expecting a Corki ban, and it looks like SKT better ban Corki in all future matches. They have a few more days off now. Their coach needs to stop laughing at TSM and hit training camp hard. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:10 Kiett wrote: He said in the interview with OGN that he suspected the gank was coming, but it was already too late to back out, so he did his best given the situation. And it's a little different when you're a level 2 renek with slice and dice vs a level 1 kennen without lightning rush. As Kennen, he had nothing, absolutely nothing outside of Flash, to save himself. Renek is beefier, has an extra dash away, and a stun by level 2. Plus, if you're confident that you can dodge the cocoon, then between Corki, Sona, and Elise, they have no other CC. Of course, I wouldn't recommend that he keeps sticking around to try and survive 3v1 ganks, but in this case, it really worked out well for SKT A perfectly played renekton vs a perfectly played dive from TSM is in favor of TSM getting that kill pick up. Backing off at the right time was the right move 100%. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:11 Itsmedudeman wrote: A perfectly played renekton vs a perfectly played dive from TSM is in favor of TSM getting that kill pick up. Backing off at the right time was the right move 100%. Yeah, seriously. Elise is absolutely godlike in 3v1's; staying at turret against her is certain death. Your only prayer as Renek is to somehow Slice n Dice backwards, flash, and dodge the cocoon AND outrange the rappel (all while being slowed by red buff, by the way) when running away. In which case you should have just ran away in the first place. You could replay that scenario 100 times and Impact would have died probably 95 times. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:10 Itsmedudeman wrote: You're really underestimating how much these teams have improved since getting here If teams have improved this much between regionals to now, I see no reason to expect C9 to have sat on their asses and not get better. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:13 Itsmedudeman wrote: Also, I think regi got kind of lucky faker messed up a bit in lane. Faker was heavily outfarming him early on but he was a bit aggressive, missed his charm, and got taken down to 60% health with his wave pushing and had to back early which let regi catch up. If faker hadn't done that it could've snowballed pretty hard in his favor in terms of cs. Faker was outfarming because he was heavily pushing Regi into lane, and Gragas in the very early levels has a hard time CSing pre-4 against a ranged champ who can harass him. After Faker left lane, CS differential evened up. If we're playing the what ifs game, what if TOO flashed for the cocoon on Faker, which would've secured a kill on Faker for Regi, which would've snowballed the game? | ||
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:15 Sandster wrote: Yeah, seriously. Elise is absolutely godlike in 3v1's; staying at turret against her is certain death. Your only prayer as Renek is to somehow Slice n Dice backwards, flash, and dodge the cocoon AND outrange the rappel (all while being slowed by red buff, by the way) when running away. In which case you should have just ran away in the first place. You could replay that scenario 100 times and Impact would have died probably 95 times. I dont think Impact would have died 95 times, because Oddone isn't capable of playing the dive anywhere close to perfect. But yes, I get your point. Anyway, I didn't say it was a good idea for him to stay, nor did he make the conscious decision to try and fight it. He just didn't realize it was coming until it was too late to run. I'm sure as he gains experience about these dives, he'll get the timing down better as to when to expect it. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:16 Gahlo wrote: If teams have improved this much between regionals to now, I see no reason to expect C9 to have sat on their asses and not get better. I don't even care about that. TSM is 'scrapping it out' and still losing handily against OMG and SKT. As I said at first, the gap is closer than expected, but I don't see how even by proxy c9 looks MILES AHEAD. Maybe they look 'close to as good' as the Asian teams, but people are reading too much into some distributive property of games won. I mean if it worked like that, TSM destroyed LD who also 'scrapped it out' against the top teams in the group, but that didn't help their position at all either. Also I think there's some rose colored hindsight glasses for c9 involved. They had their fair share of stomps for sure, but they also had their fair share of wins that looked exactly(or worse than) the ones we have seen so far. They lost early game so many times against their NA counterparts and came back in to win it, it's not like they always had a 5k gold lead at 15 minutes. | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
For once, Regi was far too passive both in lane and map presence. He held onto his skills for too long this time. Oh and TOO/Dyrus need to be less stubborn in their picks. I can understand that those champions have advantages because comfort picks, but that doesn't outweigh the fact that you can be outdrafted. The Corki Sona was great, but the solos had no synergy, other than all being AP. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:22 Kiett wrote: I dont think Impact would have died 95 times, because Oddone isn't capable of playing the dive anywhere close to perfect. But yes, I get your point. Anyway, I didn't say it was a good idea for him to stay, nor did he make the conscious decision to try and fight it. He just didn't realize it was coming until it was too late to run. I'm sure as he gains experience about these dives, he'll get the timing down better as to when to expect it. All he needed to do to fix it was flash. That's after botching it horribly. | ||
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Shiznick
United States2200 Posts
SKT, so far, has been playing pick comps that play around either a. choking a team with vision/fear to get free objectives or b. picking off players who are out of position due to vision advantage. Also I think that naturally when you see a pick comp like skt's vs a team fight comp like TSM's, the pick comp won't look as steamrolly as C9's games because they have to play with a lot of finesse to both avoid the big 5v5s that TSM wanted to engage while capitalizing on positional errors. Although, I have to admit that despite piglet being my ~~~favorite player~~~, SKT's bot lane is seriously not respecting the corki enough. That damage is bananas yo. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:24 red_ wrote: I don't even care about that. TSM is 'scrapping it out' and still losing handily against OMG and SKT. As I said at first, the gap is closer than expected, but I don't see how even by proxy c9 looks MILES AHEAD. Maybe they look 'close to as good' as the Asian teams, but people are reading too much into some distributive property of games won. I mean if it worked like that, TSM destroyed LD who also 'scrapped it out' against the top teams in the group, but that didn't help their position at all either. Also I think there's some rose colored hindsight glasses for c9 involved. They had their fair share of stomps for sure, but they also had their fair share of wins that looked exactly(or worse than) the ones we have seen so far. They lost early game so many times against their NA counterparts and came back in to win it, it's not like they always had a 5k gold lead at 15 minutes. I think you're overly defensive about C9, or I'm giving Iceman331 more credit than he deserves. I took it as a comparison between TSM and C9. Rewind a few weeks to NA regionals. C9 was miles ahead of TSM in just about every phase of the game. Even if C9 improved HALF as much as TSM has since then, C9 is still a much better team than TSM is. Due to C9 and TSM being basically sister teams I don't think that is far out of possibility, unless the group stage is the Hyperbolic Time Chamber of League. In NA, TSM is far and away my favorite team, but that doesn't stop me from acknowledging that C9 was far better than them | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:24 Doctorbeat wrote: On the TSM vs SKT game: Imo it went wrong in draft. Rumble just isn't the right pick, not against Koreans. The Corki lane went great, and both Xpecial and Wildturtle impressed me (Xpecial more than WT). But most of all the Koreans just got more out of their advantages. SKT gets Dyrus 2/3 times and take both towers, TSM fails their first towerdive and then doesn't get much from the insane Sona ult play at bot tower. Can't make mistakes like that in Worlds. You have to capitalize on every advantage you get. For once, Regi was far too passive both in lane and map presence. He held onto his skills for too long this time. Oh and TOO/Dyrus need to be less stubborn in their picks. I can understand that those champions have advantages because comfort picks, but that doesn't outweigh the fact that you can be outdrafted. The Corki Sona was great, but the solos had no synergy, other than all being AP. To be fair, the Corki Sona lane looked good because TOO was down there most of the time whereas bengi was in the top lane. Although Dyrus did get killed more but he was also put under a lot more pressure. SKT's game plan seemed to be shutting down Dyrus while their bot lane tried to hold off 2v3. It is very hard to look at the individual lane match ups when the 2 junglers spent a majority of the time in different lanes. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On September 18 2013 17:34 Gahlo wrote: I think you're overly defensive about C9, or I'm giving Iceman331 more credit than he deserves. I took it as a comparison between TSM and C9. Rewind a few weeks to NA regionals. C9 was miles ahead of TSM in just about every phase of the game. Even if C9 improved HALF as much as TSM has since then, C9 is still a much better team than TSM is. Due to C9 and TSM being basically sister teams I don't think that is far out of possibility, unless the group stage is the Hyperbolic Time Chamber of League. In NA, TSM is far and away my favorite team, but that doesn't stop me from acknowledging that C9 was far better than them I really can't make sense of your post, I didn't disagree with c9 being better than TSM, which is all you are talking about. Also Iceman's post clearly states 'I can't see c9 dropping a boX to any team I've seen so far.' By his own logic(teams relative standing prior to worlds is usable to for distributive property from these group stage games), he thinks c9 will win worlds in a cakewalk apparently. How else are you supposed to read it? | ||
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