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On July 12 2013 11:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:09 beefhamburger wrote:On July 12 2013 11:02 RagequitBM wrote:On July 12 2013 10:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 12 2013 10:57 petered wrote:On July 12 2013 10:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I hate it when people talk about comebacks like this one because it's basically completely attributable to Zuna being shit, but now C9 just gets stupid hype for the OMG COMEBACK lol You don't think they played well at all? Most NA teams wouldn't have been able to come back when down 1-11 and 10k gold. Yes vulcan threw, but give them some credit for playing it out well. Not really, no, they didn't play that well. Any NA team would've won that vs Zuna lol. It's not hard to win with a 10k gold deficit when it's 5v4. That's a very blunt statement. Sometimes you just gotta give a team credit. Zuna messed up. Cloud 9 also played well to get to the position where they were. It is not easy to win from their position, no matter the team. Agreed. You are highly overestimating NA teams in knowing what they are "supposed" to do in a game. Most/All NA teams can hardly control lanes properly or know how to tower dive, and most obviously even know when to do (or not to do) Baron. C9 had to do sooooo many things right that game for that comeback to happen. Sure, you could just say turtle up and farm and pick off anyone you can, but NA teams have shown us time and time again that they are just not capable of doing something like that. C9 also played the teamfights very well, taking out key targets and having much better positioning than most/all other NA teams. I guarantee that even if Zuna did those positioning errors vs other teams, none of them (except maybe 1 or 2 teams on a good day) would have the level of execution to pull what was necessary. And this is coming from non-C9 fan. Vulcun/Zuna threw but C9 do deserve some credit for doing what they "should" do, which most NA teams currently aren't able to. That's basically NA resigning themselves to low standards then, because if you're lauding a team to the skies for doing something that's merely competent/mediocre in the Asian scene, there's no wonder why NA will continue to be the worst region and will get demolished in worlds. If you're fine with that, that's fine, but considering how often people seem to express a desire for NA to be competitive, it's kind of hypocritical to praise teams for doing very average things, eh? Also your post basically boils down to "other teams are bad, C9 is slightly less bad, therefore they're good."
It's all relative man lol.
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On July 12 2013 11:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:09 beefhamburger wrote:On July 12 2013 11:02 RagequitBM wrote:On July 12 2013 10:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 12 2013 10:57 petered wrote:On July 12 2013 10:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I hate it when people talk about comebacks like this one because it's basically completely attributable to Zuna being shit, but now C9 just gets stupid hype for the OMG COMEBACK lol You don't think they played well at all? Most NA teams wouldn't have been able to come back when down 1-11 and 10k gold. Yes vulcan threw, but give them some credit for playing it out well. Not really, no, they didn't play that well. Any NA team would've won that vs Zuna lol. It's not hard to win with a 10k gold deficit when it's 5v4. That's a very blunt statement. Sometimes you just gotta give a team credit. Zuna messed up. Cloud 9 also played well to get to the position where they were. It is not easy to win from their position, no matter the team. Agreed. You are highly overestimating NA teams in knowing what they are "supposed" to do in a game. Most/All NA teams can hardly control lanes properly or know how to tower dive, and most obviously even know when to do (or not to do) Baron. C9 had to do sooooo many things right that game for that comeback to happen. Sure, you could just say turtle up and farm and pick off anyone you can, but NA teams have shown us time and time again that they are just not capable of doing something like that. C9 also played the teamfights very well, taking out key targets and having much better positioning than most/all other NA teams. I guarantee that even if Zuna did those positioning errors vs other teams, none of them (except maybe 1 or 2 teams on a good day) would have the level of execution to pull what was necessary. And this is coming from non-C9 fan. Vulcun/Zuna threw but C9 do deserve some credit for doing what they "should" do, which most NA teams currently aren't able to. That's basically NA resigning themselves to low standards then, because if you're lauding a team to the skies for doing something that's merely competent/mediocre in the Asian scene, there's no wonder why NA will continue to be the worst region and will get demolished in worlds. If you're fine with that, that's fine, but considering how often people seem to express a desire for NA to be competitive, it's kind of hypocritical to praise teams for doing very average things, eh? Also your post basically boils down to "other teams are bad, C9 is slightly less bad, therefore they're good."
Yes, except for that last part. You can compare teams between regions they don't play but that leads to stale arguments that go no where. Most of us know NA is no where near the top of the skill pyramid. So it's much more reasonable to compare teams between its own region, in their own NA bubble. Otherwise every argument that involves skill will devolve into "They suck compared to Korea, China, etc. bla bla bla no reason to watch." You can see these arguments all the time in the GD thread.
I have lower watching standards for NA teams, and it's up to them to raise their own standards by competing. I wouldn't say I praised C9 for winning that game, but it's pretty off the mark to say that any other NA would be able to comeback from that position. Compared to other NA teams, yes they deserve credit for playing better than their immediate competition, but not universal praise.
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On July 12 2013 11:14 wei2coolman wrote:
I'm not saying; that the teams would've necessarily won the game against vulcun; but they definitely have the mindset to deal with being atrociously behind, and clawing back victories.
Oh I can agree with that then, especially in CLG's case.
But it really took a lot of times for C9 to find their first opportunity. I was so afraid for Hai each time bot lane with that small bush crowded of Evelynn ready to be ulted by Shen, and the guy never even left his tower by a length longer than a shadow dash.
Considering a single mistake for 20~ minutes was a ticket for a loss, they played amazingly well - and Vulcan played really bad, if at all, the Baron pressure. So many globals, map controls, and always being caught was really sad. Zuna was the ice on the cake. A big ass ice.
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On July 12 2013 11:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:09 beefhamburger wrote:On July 12 2013 11:02 RagequitBM wrote:On July 12 2013 10:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 12 2013 10:57 petered wrote:On July 12 2013 10:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I hate it when people talk about comebacks like this one because it's basically completely attributable to Zuna being shit, but now C9 just gets stupid hype for the OMG COMEBACK lol You don't think they played well at all? Most NA teams wouldn't have been able to come back when down 1-11 and 10k gold. Yes vulcan threw, but give them some credit for playing it out well. Not really, no, they didn't play that well. Any NA team would've won that vs Zuna lol. It's not hard to win with a 10k gold deficit when it's 5v4. That's a very blunt statement. Sometimes you just gotta give a team credit. Zuna messed up. Cloud 9 also played well to get to the position where they were. It is not easy to win from their position, no matter the team. Agreed. You are highly overestimating NA teams in knowing what they are "supposed" to do in a game. Most/All NA teams can hardly control lanes properly or know how to tower dive, and most obviously even know when to do (or not to do) Baron. C9 had to do sooooo many things right that game for that comeback to happen. Sure, you could just say turtle up and farm and pick off anyone you can, but NA teams have shown us time and time again that they are just not capable of doing something like that. C9 also played the teamfights very well, taking out key targets and having much better positioning than most/all other NA teams. I guarantee that even if Zuna did those positioning errors vs other teams, none of them (except maybe 1 or 2 teams on a good day) would have the level of execution to pull what was necessary. And this is coming from non-C9 fan. Vulcun/Zuna threw but C9 do deserve some credit for doing what they "should" do, which most NA teams currently aren't able to. That's basically NA resigning themselves to low standards then, because if you're lauding a team to the skies for doing something that's merely competent/mediocre in the Asian scene, there's no wonder why NA will continue to be the worst region and will get demolished in worlds. If you're fine with that, that's fine, but considering how often people seem to express a desire for NA to be competitive, it's kind of hypocritical to praise teams for doing very average things, eh? Also your post basically boils down to "other teams are bad, C9 is slightly less bad, therefore they're good."
Everyone knows NA (and EU for that matter) blow compared to asian teams.
And nobody is saying c9 played an overall good game. we know c9 fucked up early and should have lost vs any competent team.
Then again they played pretty decently after the 1-11. It is obviously hard to say but I doubt most korean teams' teamfighting is as good as c9's which was a big part of the comeback. Yes, Zuna was way out of position but it is still pretty hard to win those fights vs a gold lead like that.
Anyway it's really hard to say which teams would've been able to comeback in that game as so many factors are involved and the opponent has to fuck up majorly to make it even possible.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On July 12 2013 11:25 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 12 2013 11:09 beefhamburger wrote:On July 12 2013 11:02 RagequitBM wrote:On July 12 2013 10:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 12 2013 10:57 petered wrote:On July 12 2013 10:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I hate it when people talk about comebacks like this one because it's basically completely attributable to Zuna being shit, but now C9 just gets stupid hype for the OMG COMEBACK lol You don't think they played well at all? Most NA teams wouldn't have been able to come back when down 1-11 and 10k gold. Yes vulcan threw, but give them some credit for playing it out well. Not really, no, they didn't play that well. Any NA team would've won that vs Zuna lol. It's not hard to win with a 10k gold deficit when it's 5v4. That's a very blunt statement. Sometimes you just gotta give a team credit. Zuna messed up. Cloud 9 also played well to get to the position where they were. It is not easy to win from their position, no matter the team. Agreed. You are highly overestimating NA teams in knowing what they are "supposed" to do in a game. Most/All NA teams can hardly control lanes properly or know how to tower dive, and most obviously even know when to do (or not to do) Baron. C9 had to do sooooo many things right that game for that comeback to happen. Sure, you could just say turtle up and farm and pick off anyone you can, but NA teams have shown us time and time again that they are just not capable of doing something like that. C9 also played the teamfights very well, taking out key targets and having much better positioning than most/all other NA teams. I guarantee that even if Zuna did those positioning errors vs other teams, none of them (except maybe 1 or 2 teams on a good day) would have the level of execution to pull what was necessary. And this is coming from non-C9 fan. Vulcun/Zuna threw but C9 do deserve some credit for doing what they "should" do, which most NA teams currently aren't able to. That's basically NA resigning themselves to low standards then, because if you're lauding a team to the skies for doing something that's merely competent/mediocre in the Asian scene, there's no wonder why NA will continue to be the worst region and will get demolished in worlds. If you're fine with that, that's fine, but considering how often people seem to express a desire for NA to be competitive, it's kind of hypocritical to praise teams for doing very average things, eh? Also your post basically boils down to "other teams are bad, C9 is slightly less bad, therefore they're good." Everyone knows NA (and EU for that matter) blow compared to asian teams. And nobody is saying c9 played an overall good game. we know c9 fucked up early and should have lost vs any competent team. Then again they played pretty decently after the 1-11. It is obviously hard to say but I doubt most korean teams' teamfighting is as good as c9's which was a big part of the comeback. Yes, Zuna was way out of position but it is still pretty hard to win those fights vs a gold lead like that. Anyway it's really hard to say which teams would've been able to comeback in that game as so many factors are involved and the opponent has to fuck up majorly to make it even possible.
You really think Koreans team fight worse than C9?
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Anyone who thinks korean team fight is worse than C9's has never seen a korean game.
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On July 12 2013 11:25 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 12 2013 11:09 beefhamburger wrote:On July 12 2013 11:02 RagequitBM wrote:On July 12 2013 10:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 12 2013 10:57 petered wrote:On July 12 2013 10:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I hate it when people talk about comebacks like this one because it's basically completely attributable to Zuna being shit, but now C9 just gets stupid hype for the OMG COMEBACK lol You don't think they played well at all? Most NA teams wouldn't have been able to come back when down 1-11 and 10k gold. Yes vulcan threw, but give them some credit for playing it out well. Not really, no, they didn't play that well. Any NA team would've won that vs Zuna lol. It's not hard to win with a 10k gold deficit when it's 5v4. That's a very blunt statement. Sometimes you just gotta give a team credit. Zuna messed up. Cloud 9 also played well to get to the position where they were. It is not easy to win from their position, no matter the team. Agreed. You are highly overestimating NA teams in knowing what they are "supposed" to do in a game. Most/All NA teams can hardly control lanes properly or know how to tower dive, and most obviously even know when to do (or not to do) Baron. C9 had to do sooooo many things right that game for that comeback to happen. Sure, you could just say turtle up and farm and pick off anyone you can, but NA teams have shown us time and time again that they are just not capable of doing something like that. C9 also played the teamfights very well, taking out key targets and having much better positioning than most/all other NA teams. I guarantee that even if Zuna did those positioning errors vs other teams, none of them (except maybe 1 or 2 teams on a good day) would have the level of execution to pull what was necessary. And this is coming from non-C9 fan. Vulcun/Zuna threw but C9 do deserve some credit for doing what they "should" do, which most NA teams currently aren't able to. That's basically NA resigning themselves to low standards then, because if you're lauding a team to the skies for doing something that's merely competent/mediocre in the Asian scene, there's no wonder why NA will continue to be the worst region and will get demolished in worlds. If you're fine with that, that's fine, but considering how often people seem to express a desire for NA to be competitive, it's kind of hypocritical to praise teams for doing very average things, eh? Also your post basically boils down to "other teams are bad, C9 is slightly less bad, therefore they're good." Everyone knows NA (and EU for that matter) blow compared to asian teams. And nobody is saying c9 played an overall good game. we know c9 fucked up early and should have lost vs any competent team. Then again they played pretty decently after the 1-11. It is obviously hard to say but I doubt most korean teams' teamfighting is as good as c9's which was a big part of the comeback. Yes, Zuna was way out of position but it is still pretty hard to win those fights vs a gold lead like that. Anyway it's really hard to say which teams would've been able to comeback in that game as so many factors are involved and the opponent has to fuck up majorly to make it even possible.
I think most Korean teams have teamfighting skills at the very least as good as C9 actually.
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I'll do some math for Kenji. If you are out of position as trist and you die instantly then that means you just lost 16k gold worth of damage items and never got to use them. Not to mention trist is the easiest target to kill so blowing your nukes on her is not a big investment whatsoever.
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I stand corrected.
c9s teamfighting sucks, only zuna is worse.
every korean team is top notch and even IM would have wiped the floor with them when down 15k.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On July 12 2013 11:36 Keniji wrote:
I stand corrected.
c9s teamfighting sucks, only zuna is worse.
every korean team is top notch and even IM would have wiped the floor with them when down 15k.
You think you're being really clever with your sarcastic post, but it's all the funnier because that's completely true. I'd take LGIM over C9 or Vulcun any day.
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On July 12 2013 11:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:36 Keniji wrote:
I stand corrected.
c9s teamfighting sucks, only zuna is worse.
every korean team is top notch and even IM would have wiped the floor with them when down 15k. You think you're being really clever with your sarcastic post, but it's all the funnier because that's completely true. I'd take LGIM over C9 or Vulcun any day.
I'd take IM over vulcun anyday as well.
If I had to bet on c9 vs LGIM I'd probably go with IM as well. (just because of experience vs decent teams)
I do think c9 has a lot of errors in their play, I do not think it's their teamfighting.
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I was mad at zuna after champ select for not taking cleanse vs ashe zyra ryze
Now I'm livid. Why was I rooting for V again?
Fuck, most korean teams would be too much in tears to TRY and stage a concerted comeback from -15k@20
C9 won that through team spirit as much as skill.
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On July 12 2013 12:14 sylverfyre wrote:
I was mad at zuna after champ select for not taking cleanse vs ashe zyra ryze
Now I'm livid. Why was I rooting for V again?
Fuck, most korean teams would be too much in tears to TRY and stage a concerted comeback from -15k@20
C9 won that through team spirit as much as skill.
Because they execute absolutely beautiful plays when they're on their game (see first 20 minutes).
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I have no idea how Zuna gets caught so much on Tristana, especially when she is all he plays...
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Sure, most kr teams would never have gotten that stomped early. But actually executing that comeback, and not just getting sloppily brute-forced into defeat by Vulcun took equal parts skill, spirit, and luck.
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I went out for drinks after 20 min when the score was 12-1.
How is Zuna a progamer? Every single Korean team would dump his ass IMMEDIATELY. Hey guys I've costed my team numerous team fights and objectives by being a retard and jumping in or reengaging to my death.
LET ME DO IT AGAIN! AT MY OWN INHIB!
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On July 12 2013 12:23 sylverfyre wrote:
Sure, most kr teams would never have gotten that stomped early. But actually executing that comeback, and not just getting sloppily brute-forced into defeat by Vulcun took equal parts skill, spirit, and luck.
I find it funny that only the NA scene really does this. There are certain teams that have this tendency to keep their spirit up and keep trying. I think it has a lot to do with CLG's influence in the scene in NA. There have been so many games of theirs that go beyond that 40 min mark, and CLG refuses to give up. I don't know if it's a good or bad thing, but it's partly why the NA scene has these types of games.
On a separate note, the fact that a team with a 10k+ gold lead still lost the game is just really difficult for me to grasp. I do understand part of why they lost(sloppy play and all that), but it's just crazy that these guys have proven themselves to belong in the top tier of LCS teams. I would never expect this type of comeback from any other region. I can't imagine an Asian team throwing away a 10k+ lead(Even European teams wouldn't do this). Seriously think about this game, and consider how many chances Vulcun had to win that game. Their first mistake cost them a baron, but they were STILL AHEAD 7k in gold. It took c9 around 20-30 minutes to really catch up in gold. I don't know if it's that NA teams do not realize how much of an advantage they have, or if it's just that NA teams don't understand what that lead means. There's definitely a disconnect between how NA teams play(and what they do with gold leads), and how other regions play. It's frustrating to admit, but there's definitely something wrong here.
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I sort of hate the just pure confidence of "How KR teams would have done it."
According to the discussion, Korean teams never have players get caught out, never run an incorrect summoner spell, would dump players at the drop of a hat, would have done a (somehow) better comeback, don't have bad teamfights ever, etc.
Yes Korea is good, better, etc. But instead of discussing the game relative to the game and the players, the entire discussion is relative to Korea. I teach in tertiary education, and the equivalent would be me giving feedback on an essay which says "Johan Huizinga would never have written anything so bad."
(yes this is a bit of an exaggeration)
It's not that the comparisons aren't true, I just dislike the framing of such discussion. Still, it's pretty inevitable when comparisons are still far easier to make note of than aspects.
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zuna is hands down the nicest player in LCS
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On July 12 2013 13:19 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:23 sylverfyre wrote:
Sure, most kr teams would never have gotten that stomped early. But actually executing that comeback, and not just getting sloppily brute-forced into defeat by Vulcun took equal parts skill, spirit, and luck. I find it funny that only the NA scene really does this. There are certain teams that have this tendency to keep their spirit up and keep trying. I think it has a lot to do with CLG's influence in the scene in NA. There have been so many games of theirs that go beyond that 40 min mark, and CLG refuses to give up. I don't know if it's a good or bad thing, but it's partly why the NA scene has these types of games. On a separate note, the fact that a team with a 10k+ gold lead still lost the game is just really difficult for me to grasp. I do understand part of why they lost(sloppy play and all that), but it's just crazy that these guys have proven themselves to belong in the top tier of LCS teams. I would never expect this type of comeback from any other region. I can't imagine an Asian team throwing away a 10k+ lead( Even European teams wouldn't do this). Seriously think about this game, and consider how many chances Vulcun had to win that game. Their first mistake cost them a baron, but they were STILL AHEAD 7k in gold. It took c9 around 20-30 minutes to really catch up in gold. I don't know if it's that NA teams do not realize how much of an advantage they have, or if it's just that NA teams don't understand what that lead means. There's definitely a disconnect between how NA teams play(and what they do with gold leads), and how other regions play. It's frustrating to admit, but there's definitely something wrong here.
You know, I might have heard about a game where a team was down 27k gold and won...not sure maybe someone should ask the casters if they can remember something like that.
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