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On June 16 2014 23:48 Scip wrote:
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well.
That is what I'm implying. All the jungle items are gold inefficient when you just complete them and finishing another item can give you a burst of power which might be all you need to secure a kill in a gank.
I don't want to argue if you're not going to provide reasoning as to why these things I say are false. If you don't provide more reasoning I'll just leave this thread.
Sheen will definitely add more damage than finishing the jungle items. The proc is 90+ damage every few seconds on someone with a high base AD like skarner and the AP gives his abilities more damage. You might still suffer from a lack of damage but it helps by providing you with early damage. It gives more damage imo than even a fully completed spectral wraith.
I don't think Spectral wraith is strictly inferior unless the definition of strictly has changed. You can see it in the numbers above. Your Q is pretty much the same, and all your other abilities get a decent boost at the cost of lower damage autos and the true damage DoT.
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The damage on autoattacks from the lizard spirit outweights the additional damage on your E and ult, there's no discussion about that. Dealing more damage is also more interesting than the bigger shield (compare 10 more damage on Q, 30 more on his autos, their "cds", the 10+ dps from lizard's DoT, with 35 more HP on the shield and its cd).
Golem isn't that interesting because it grants you a tiny HP buffer and tenacity; you'll often want Mercs anyway so there's a bit of redundancy, and at the time you'd buy Kindlegem more damage will win you a fight way more decisively than more HP. It also makes your ganks more dangerous (you'll generally hit 6 and start ganking in that time frame, or right before).
If you need a HP buffer, you could always get a casual Giant's Belt since you're going to build Randuin's later. However since you have that shield and Skarner actually has pretty good base HP, you're better off HP-wise than a bunch of champions, and getting some resistances or damage first is 0K (be it mercs or shroud or sheen).
As for Sheen vs finishing the jungle item:
Sheen improves your single-target damage, that's it. Finishing the Lizard Spirit item gives you 30 more AD and the DoT, all of which will make your Q deal better AoE damage on the champs, and I'd argue that this + the autos will beat the Sheen proc on the big monsters too because Sheen will add ~70-80 physical damage every 2s at best, so around 35-40 dps. Your autos with the +30 AD will beat that, and +30 AD beats +40 AP on your Q too in terms of damage.
The build-up is also better, Sheen really doesn't do much until you have the full 1200 gold.
It's harder when fighting champs because they'll be moving and you want to chase and it's harder to use all your autos obviously, but I'd argue it's still better. It also gives you CDR which Skarner loves.
Edit: oh, right, meant to mention them but I forgot while typing. Since you want to avoid backing too often (inefficient use of your time, wasted farm opportunities, etc.) if you spent 2-3 minutes before you complete your item (likely more if you build Sheen first), that's 7.5 gp5 you pass on, so easily 200+ gold.
May not seem much, but for "annoying" items (like Sheen where you really want the complete item, or getting a Giant's Belt when you need it, or complete a Hexdrinker which combine is so cost-effective thanks to the passive) if that lets you buy them in one go it's really good because you know you won't have to recall again soon.
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Also don't forget the Conservation stacks. Those give you a lot of gold you'd be missing otherwise.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Alright, let's do some maths then shall we?
So you say that Sheen+Spirit Stone will give you more damage than Lizard Elder
At level 9, which is a pretty reasonable time to have one of these things, you have 88 base damage. So a Sheen proc every 2 seconds (it's actually a bit worse than that, but let's assume the ideal scenario here) is 44 single target DPS. At this point, it's not unreasonable to assume about 1 attack/second. That's just about what it is with max Q stack, so ideal scenario again, but not much more far-fetched than a sheen proc every 2s. That's 30 single target DPS for Lizard Elder.
Now let's look at abilities. With Sheen your Q does 10 more dmg thanks to the AP, with Lizard Elder it does 24 more damage. It's actually not far fetched to assume a Q every 2 seconds, so let's do that. Lizard Elder also does about 11 true dmg/second. I'm going to actually count it as 14, because it's not reduced by either armor or mres so it's reasonable to give it as much value as 14 physical dmg/second.
So Sheen adds 49 dmg/second to your dps assuming pretty much ideal scenario
Lizard Elder adds 56 dmg/second to your dps assuming pretty much ideal scenario
If you do buy Sheen, you'll notice you don't actually have that much more mana. That's because you need to use quite a few more Qs to clear out jungle camps so you actually lose mana when jungling.
To be fair, your abilities do slightly more with Sheen. Your ult does 25 more dmg, your W shields for 20 more and your E deals 17.5 more dmg. Which is all pretty worthless when compared to the 1. slightly higher autoattack+Q dmg Lizard Elder gives you and 2. the bonus gold passive 3. MUCH MUCH faster jungling and 4. better build path (double long sword is better than mana crystal+amp tome) but this one's pretty unimportant given that you often back with 1300 gold at that point
I didn't mention that Sheen is 100 gold cheaper but I also didn't account for the 10% cdr that Lizard Elder provides and that's a really fucking important part of that item too
So I think this is enough for a demonstration of why buying Sheen before you finish your jungle item is absolutely horrible. I could go ahead and use the same math to show that Lizard Elder is better than Spectral Wraith too but I'm sure you can do that yourself.
I don't like repeating myself, but I did say that if you disagree with me you might want to phrase your disagreements as questions. It's not just out of vain feeling of superiority and dominance (though that may or may not have a part in that) but also because I don't want people reading the comments to my guide, see these asinine suggestions and take them to heart. If your suggestion is actually good, it will be added to the guide (just like Slayer91's suggestion about 9/21/0 masteries that I'll edit in later)
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Ok I have switched to level 8 E.
When you taught me your style you said you almost always bought Spirit Visage, but now I see you building Banshees. Why exactly is this?
In other news, tonight we will discover if Skarner can carry me to Diamond V. Wish me luck!
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On June 17 2014 00:23 Alaric wrote:
The damage on autoattacks from the lizard spirit outweights the additional damage on your E and ult, there's no discussion about that. Dealing more damage is also more interesting than the bigger shield (compare 10 more damage on Q, 30 more on his autos, their "cds", the 10+ dps from lizard's DoT, with 35 more HP on the shield and its cd).
Golem isn't that interesting because it grants you a tiny HP buffer and tenacity; you'll often want Mercs anyway so there's a bit of redundancy, and at the time you'd buy Kindlegem more damage will win you a fight way more decisively than more HP. It also makes your ganks more dangerous (you'll generally hit 6 and start ganking in that time frame, or right before).
If you need a HP buffer, you could always get a casual Giant's Belt since you're going to build Randuin's later. However since you have that shield and Skarner actually has pretty good base HP, you're better off HP-wise than a bunch of champions, and getting some resistances or damage first is 0K (be it mercs or shroud or sheen).
As for Sheen vs finishing the jungle item:
Sheen improves your single-target damage, that's it. Finishing the Lizard Spirit item gives you 30 more AD and the DoT, all of which will make your Q deal better AoE damage on the champs, and I'd argue that this + the autos will beat the Sheen proc on the big monsters too because Sheen will add ~70-80 physical damage every 2s at best, so around 35-40 dps. Your autos with the +30 AD will beat that, and +30 AD beats +40 AP on your Q too in terms of damage.
The build-up is also better, Sheen really doesn't do much until you have the full 1200 gold.
It's harder when fighting champs because they'll be moving and you want to chase and it's harder to use all your autos obviously, but I'd argue it's still better. It also gives you CDR which Skarner loves.
Edit: oh, right, meant to mention them but I forgot while typing. Since you want to avoid backing too often (inefficient use of your time, wasted farm opportunities, etc.) if you spent 2-3 minutes before you complete your item (likely more if you build Sheen first), that's 7.5 gp5 you pass on, so easily 200+ gold.
May not seem much, but for "annoying" items (like Sheen where you really want the complete item, or getting a Giant's Belt when you need it, or complete a Hexdrinker which combine is so cost-effective thanks to the passive) if that lets you buy them in one go it's really good because you know you won't have to recall again soon.
Most of this is subjective but the 7.5 gp5 is wrong. Conservation gives at best .67 gp5 so in 3 minutes 120 gold.
On June 17 2014 00:26 Fildun wrote:
Also don't forget the Conservation stacks. Those give you a lot of gold you'd be missing otherwise.
It wasn't forgotten.
On June 17 2014 00:33 Scip wrote:
Alright, let's do some maths then shall we?
So you say that Sheen+Spirit Stone will give you more damage than Lizard Elder
At level 9, which is a pretty reasonable time to have one of these things, you have 88 base damage. So a Sheen proc every 2 seconds (it's actually a bit worse than that, but let's assume the ideal scenario here) is 44 single target DPS. At this point, it's not unreasonable to assume about 1 attack/second. That's just about what it is with max Q stack, so ideal scenario again, but not much more far-fetched than a sheen proc every 2s. That's 30 single target DPS for Lizard Elder.
Now let's look at abilities. With Sheen your Q does 10 more dmg thanks to the AP, with Lizard Elder it does 24 more damage. It's actually not far fetched to assume a Q every 2 seconds
I think that is a bit unreasonable. 2 seconds is a bit much but the numbers are good otherwise. Assuming 3 stacks on Q is also a bit high as it's equivalent to always assuming Tryn has 35% crit chance when he ganks from he jungle. Maybe he will sometimes but he won't usually.
While the overall dps is higher, I think dps is a bit of a loaded stat in that often you don't get to just stand still and autoattack champions. If that were the case you'd see Yasuo and Tryn in every game. No one would ever pick a Skarner at all and if they picked Annie or Kayle they'd go AD. If I wanted to bend the math to suggest that you get 2 autos and 2 Qs and a full rotation of your other abilities, then you gain 10*2(Q)+80*2(procs)+25+17.5 - 30*2(autos) - 14*4(elder lizard passive over 4 seconds) - 24*2 = 58.5(mixed) damage. Not a whole lot but something.
A case where I first saw the power of burst was when I tried Sheen first Jax vs Phage first Jax. On paper the Phage has the same dps because 20 damage per second and the boosts on Q and E are helpful, but in game people would rarely ever just stand and whack each other like that.
I'll concede the point that it's better to finish your jungle item than go sheen though. Whatever damage increase can be gained from Sheen probably isn't worth it.
, so let's do that. Lizard Elder also does about 11 true dmg/second. I'm going to actually count it as 14, because it's not reduced by either armor or mres so it's reasonable to give it as much value as 14 physical dmg/second.
So Sheen adds 49 dmg/second to your dps assuming pretty much ideal scenario
Lizard Elder adds 56 dmg/second to your dps assuming pretty much ideal scenario
If you do buy Sheen, you'll notice you don't actually have that much more mana. That's because you need to use quite a few more Qs to clear out jungle camps so you actually lose mana when jungling.
To be fair, your abilities do slightly more with Sheen. Your ult does 25 more dmg, your W shields for 20 more and your E deals 17.5 more dmg. Which is all pretty worthless when compared to the 1. slightly higher autoattack+Q dmg Lizard Elder gives you and 2. the bonus gold passive 3. MUCH MUCH faster jungling and 4. better build path (double long sword is better than mana crystal+amp tome) but this one's pretty unimportant given that you often back with 1300 gold at that point
I didn't mention that Sheen is 100 gold cheaper but I also didn't account for the 10% cdr that Lizard Elder provides and that's a really fucking important part of that item too
So I think this is enough for a demonstration of why buying Sheen before you finish your jungle item is absolutely horrible. I could go ahead and use the same math to show that Lizard Elder is better than Spectral Wraith too but I'm sure you can do that yourself.
I don't like repeating myself, but I did say that if you disagree with me you might want to phrase your disagreements as questions. It's not just out of vain feeling of superiority and dominance (though that may or may not have a part in that) but also because I don't want people reading the comments to my guide, see these asinine suggestions and take them to heart. If your suggestion is actually good, it will be added to the guide (just like Slayer91's suggestion about 9/21/0 masteries that I'll edit in later)
I've heard this excuse before and it really is just an excuse. It's fine to defend your articles as it's your creation but no one ever does it to "protect bronze readers from asinine advice." Most users won't read the entire thread. Your choice of words there with asinine also makes you sound very aggressive. Take it easy, I'm not here to insult you.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
The difference between Spirit Visage and Banshees is pretty small.
They both give pretty much the same amount of hp regen (Spirit visage has the 20hp5 and the 20% bonus regen passive, banshees gives 45hp5 after getting hit by a spell. The difference is negligable), Banshees gives 50 more hp and Spellshield while Spirit Visage gives 10% CDR. While with my normal build you are usually sitting at 32.5 CDR at that point, so the CDR would be nice, I find that the spellshield is usually more useful. At times when the spellshield isn't very useful, Locket is better than Spirit Visage anyway (the shield+aura easily outweigh the extra 15Mres and HP regen you'd get from Visage).
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Welp, my bad. Confused 1.5 stack per second and one stack every 1.5 second.
Please don't quote the whole posts and only the parts you reply too though, it makes you look like you write even more than me. 
Sheen vs Phage on Jax has different goals. You're in lane, the other guy won't let you hit him for free if you're stronger. So to increase your damage either you hit him harder before he deals with you, or you stick to him better. The goal of Phage is to have some early tankiness and the passive to chase down your opponent, thus getting more autos, while Sheen doesn't want to fight so much as to harass your opponent with quick burst he won't able to dodge.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
The Sheen Jax comparison fails. The reason why Sheen Jax is so scary is because so much of his damage in lane comes for Q+W+ult proc harass AND because he has mana issues in lane at that point. Skarner's damage is more sustainy and the mana you get is comparable to what you get from completing Lizard Elder.
One Q every 2 seconds is not unreasonable in the slightest. You have 12.5% CDR from your setup which puts Q cd at 3.06. If you autoattack once every 2 seconds it's a Q/2s. If you autoattack more, which is reasonable to assume, it's actually even more. 1 autoattack every second is a bit too optimistic, maybe it would be more accurate to change it to an auto every 1.25-1.5 seconds. Same for Sheen proc every 2 seconds, completely unrealistic, probably 3 seconds or so is a lot more so (because the cooldown starts only once the sheen proc is actually applied). You can adjust the math if you want to to this but it's not difficult to see the comparison isn't going to be kind to sheen.
Also didn't mention that the entire calculation was single target, it's way better for elder lizard if you hit your Q even once on more than 1 person
On June 17 2014 01:08 obesechicken13 wrote:
I've heard this excuse before and it really is just an excuse. It's fine to defend your articles as it's your creation but no one ever does it to "protect bronze readers from asinine advice." Most users won't read the entire thread. Your choice of words there with asinine also makes you sound very aggressive. Take it easy, I'm not here to insult you.
??? You presumably read the comments and you thought buying sheen instead of finishing lizard elder might be a good idea half a day ago
Missed this post earlier
On June 16 2014 22:50 Fildun wrote:
Btw if people want it I could write something about Skarner top, although I'd also like to keep this just about jungle.
Edit: What do you think about replacing Expose weakness/blade weaving/spell weaving with Mental Force and Arcane mastery (the AP masteries)?
The AP doesn't increase jungle speed almost at all and for fighting champions the spellweaving line will give you a lot more dmg. Top Skarner will not be included in this guide.
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On June 17 2014 00:07 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 23:48 Scip wrote:
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well. That is what I'm implying. All the jungle items are gold inefficient when you just complete them and finishing another item can give you a burst of power which might be all you need to secure a kill in a gank.
This argument makes no sense. The jungle items
A: Make you farm faster
B: Generate gold
Both of these are things you especially want as early as possible when you have time to farm the jungle and gold generating items obviously you want them early.
They are only cost inefficient assuming spirit stones stats are valueless, the point of converting the spirit stone is that its cost efficient assuming spirit stone is already bought and it pays for the spirit stone over the game so it becomes cost efficient.
So your logic has more holes than swiss cheese. You then go on the claim erroneously that Sheen would give more damage than Elderlizard, also not taking into account the amount of time in the jungle you save by taking elder lizard. (Using your justification from playing a lane champion with good burst damage and absolutely cannot be all-in'd meaning buying more DPS isn't that important)
You then proceed to get defensive when you are called out and say that you won't argue if everyone doesn't spoon feed exact proofs to you. Pretty toxic TBH.
Not to mention you said that "skarner won't solo kill anyone at full health" comparing him to Sejuani, a champion he out DPSes by probably about 2-3x once he finishes elder lizard. When anyone who plays any skarner finds out pretty fast that at least early-midgame you can kill people just as effectively as rengar. He is less strong at getting in melee range as rengar but finishing them once he reaches them which isnt that hard if you aren't spotted, or you are underestimated, with your W speed, E slow, and R ult, and redbuff.
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On June 17 2014 02:29 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:07 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 16 2014 23:48 Scip wrote:
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well. That is what I'm implying. All the jungle items are gold inefficient when you just complete them and finishing another item can give you a burst of power which might be all you need to secure a kill in a gank. They are only cost inefficient assuming spirit stones stats are valueless, the point of converting the spirit stone is that its cost efficient assuming spirit stone is already bought and it pays for the spirit stone over the game so it becomes cost efficient. You then proceed to get defensive when you are called out and say that you won't argue if everyone doesn't spoon feed exact proofs to you. Pretty toxic TBH. Not to mention you said that "skarner won't solo kill anyone at full health" comparing him to Sejuani, a champion he out DPSes by probably about 2-3x once he finishes elder lizard. When anyone who plays any skarner finds out pretty fast that at least early-midgame you can kill people just as effectively as rengar. He is less strong at getting in melee range as rengar but finishing them once he reaches them which isnt that hard if you aren't spotted, or you are underestimated, with your W speed, E slow, and R ult, and redbuff.
His reply was actually really good. I don't know how I'm being toxic. I acknowledge Skarner is a really good duelist. Like almost Udyr level good, just that good players won't try to fight him so it's like trying to kill someone with Sejuani. You provide the cc and other people deal the damage. If there are no other people it's almost impossible to get the solo kill. Sure with ult and red buff and catching someone unaware you might kill them, but that doesn't happen often.
I was a bit confused at first but I see now you're saying in the bolded part that the jungle items are gold efficient if you consider the butcher passive as hp/5 and mana/5. That's fair.
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On June 17 2014 02:56 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 02:29 Slayer91 wrote:On June 17 2014 00:07 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 16 2014 23:48 Scip wrote:
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well. That is what I'm implying. All the jungle items are gold inefficient when you just complete them and finishing another item can give you a burst of power which might be all you need to secure a kill in a gank. They are only cost inefficient assuming spirit stones stats are valueless, the point of converting the spirit stone is that its cost efficient assuming spirit stone is already bought and it pays for the spirit stone over the game so it becomes cost efficient. You then proceed to get defensive when you are called out and say that you won't argue if everyone doesn't spoon feed exact proofs to you. Pretty toxic TBH. Not to mention you said that "skarner won't solo kill anyone at full health" comparing him to Sejuani, a champion he out DPSes by probably about 2-3x once he finishes elder lizard. When anyone who plays any skarner finds out pretty fast that at least early-midgame you can kill people just as effectively as rengar. He is less strong at getting in melee range as rengar but finishing them once he reaches them which isnt that hard if you aren't spotted, or you are underestimated, with your W speed, E slow, and R ult, and redbuff. His reply was actually really good. I don't know how I'm being toxic. I acknowledge Skarner is a really good duelist. Like almost Udyr level good, just that good players won't try to fight him so it's like trying to kill someone with Sejuani. You provide the cc and other people deal the damage. If there are no other people it's almost impossible to get the solo kill. Sure with ult and red buff and catching someone unaware you might kill them, but that doesn't happen often. I was a bit confused at first but I see now you're saying in the bolded part that the jungle items are gold efficient if you consider the butcher passive as hp/5 and mana/5. That's fair.
The thing about being a jungler is that you're able to come from unexpected angles and fight people who would otherwise not want to fight. (They call it ganking)
You just said you provide the cc and other people provide the damage, but you seem to ignore the fact that skarner has actually really solid damage, and his main issue is staying in melee range.
Making speculations about good players not doing certain things tends to be pointless, considering how kills happen all the time even in LCS which is fairly close to the highest level of play and still these players apparently don't know enough to avoid being killed.
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Scip I meant more like if I wanted to write something about Skarner top could I also fit it in here or should I make a separate thread.
+ Show Spoiler +Teut post about fitting it in coming up in 3...2...1...
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
You can make a separate thread if you want to, naturally, not going to include it in this thread though.
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On June 17 2014 04:16 Fildun wrote:Scip I meant more like if I wanted to write something about Skarner top could I also fit it in here or should I make a separate thread. + Show Spoiler +Teut post about fitting it in coming up in 3...2...1...
You could play top skarner but I think you'd have trouble fitting it in the current meta.
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United States37500 Posts
Thoughts about the possible Skarner changes on the PBE?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
What's on PBE isn't relevant to the guide. It should be discussed in the PBE Discussion Thread rather than in the strategy section.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Added a video showing how to carry over Q stacks between jungle camps, edited a few passages to elaborate on parts where you had questions and changed the preferred mastery setup. More relevant comments always welcome!
Is there a way to embed the video in a nice way?
Is there a way to make cuts in the video in a simple way?
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United States37500 Posts
Well, looks like the Skarner changes are live tomorrow, so it's no longer PBE theorycraft. :O
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HALP HOW DO I PLAY NEW SKARNER SCIP.
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EPT
