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Czech Republic11293 Posts
About me:
Hello guys! You probably know me, I'm SF Scipeaus on EUW, known on these forums for being somewhat high ranked (got soloQ challenger in season3 and 4) and also known for maining Skarner way back in S2. Well, I started playing him again and here's my guide.
About Skarner:
Let's talk about what Skarner actually does. He farms really quickly, he deals lots of damages, he initiates or counterinitiates teamfights and generally forces the enemy to play defensive lest they be picked off. There are also things Skarner doesn't do: he doesn't gank pre-6, he doesn't do dragon quickly, doesn't push well and he doesn't CC much apart from his ult. Knowing these qualities should help you know when it is appropriate to pick him, but specific teammates and enemies play a very large role as well. More on those later though, this is just an introduction.
Setup: Runes, Masteries and starting Items
For runes, take these:
Attack speed Marks
Flat Armor Seals
Flat CDR Glyphs
Attack Speed Quintessences
Some alternatives you might think about are Movement Speed Quintessences and Magic Resistance Glyphs. Movement Speed slows down your jungle a little bit and the extra strength in early and mid fights is more valuable than a bit of movement speed. Lategame Movement Speed Quints aren't very useful either as you hit the harder Mspeed cap with just boots2+W. As for Magic Resistance Glyphs, they aren't as useful to you as getting faster level 6. You aren't likely to get into very close fights early game anyway, which also favours offensive setup.
Masteries as follows:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xlqAU4z.jpg?1)
9/21/0 is preferred over 21/9/0. There are no masteries in the offense tree beyond the first 9 that allow you to jungle faster, apart from the 3% damage one which is inconsequential and the 6AP one you probably don't want anyway. Depending on teamcomps, you might want to get Evasive rather than Reinforced Armor. 21/9/0 with the Executioner and Spellweaving line can be justified when the enemy team has very little CC and you don't expect much value from either Reinforced Armor or Evasive, but those situations are very rare.
Starting items are Machete+5 pots, same as almost every other jungler. What that builds into we'll discuss below.
Skill order:
Standard skill order is R>Q>W>E, taking 1 point in E at lvl8.
There is an alternative skill order, which is R>Q>W>E, taking 1 point in E at lvl4
Skarner's E skill has pretty much only 1 purpose and that's slowing your enemies so you can run up to them and ult them. Taking a point at level4 allows you to do so right as you hit lvl6, but it hurts your clear as you don't want to use your mana on E and it also makes you weaker in fights as you are likely to run out of mana if you spam your E early on. Most importantly, while it does help you get closer to enemies, it doesn't actually help you that much so I reccomend delaying leveling your E until lvl8.
Itemization:
Alright, itemization. There are few good deviations avaliable but it's important to recognize them.
Your jungle item of choice is Lizard Elder, for the same reasons almost every other jungler gets it. Large increase in damage, significantly faster jungling. Your Qs will be mana neutral when used on jungle monsters once you get it, so you won't have mana problem jungling.
You will have mana problems fighting though, which is why Iceborn Gauntlet is the item to get right after. Apart from giving you the much needed mana and somewhat useful armor, it also significantly increases your damage with the Sheen proc and the slow allows you to stick to targets, a very important skill to have for a melee autoattacker with almost no CC of his own.
After Iceborn Gauntlet get boots2. You will want Mercury Treads unless the enemy team is full physical damage, in which case get Ninja Tabi. The survivability and in the case of Mercs the Tenacity are vastly more valuable than what Mobo boots would give you. If your team is reliant on your flash+ult to engage, get the enchantment that reduces flash cooldown as well. Against some champions like Akali, Rengar or Kha'Zix you'll want to buy upgraded red trinket to replace your green one as soon as you get IBG/when you hit lvl9.
After this, almost always build full tank. Randuins and Banshees are the 2 items you probably want to get. If the enemy team has a lot of magic damage, Locket is a great item, it can replace Banshees if the spellshield wouldn't be of much use or the aura would be exceptionally good. It also maxes out your CDR. Thornmail is good against mostly physical dmg teams, Warmogs is justifiable if the enemy has tons of % penetration or reduction (Yasuo, Jarvan etc.)
It can be occasionally appropriate to get another damage item. If you already have a very tanky champion on your team, getting last item damage item can be good, Blade of the Ruined King generally provides the most damage and utility. If you are against a physical damage only team, getting Ninja Tabi and Zephyr to max out CDR and get the tenacity can be good. If the enemy has a lot of magic burst that tends to finish you off (Ziggs, Leblanc etc.) Hexdrinker can be a good buy. I warn you though, although in midgame you might feel like you can afford to build damage, oftentimes you'll come to regret that decision once the enemy ADC and middle get 2nd item completed. If you want to play it safe, build full tank after IBG with maybe a dmg item in your last slot.
Alright, let's get to the part where I explain how to play Skarner
Pre-6 Jungle:
Early jungling with Skarner is pretty simple. Starting blue is a bit faster and you lose less hp, but in case of lvl1 shenanigans you can start red as well. The standard path would be Blue -> Wolves -> Red -> Golems -> Wraiths -> Wolves, then clearing jungle against from Golems. 90% of the time you'll just want to clear to lvl5 and base, not appearing in any lanes. The 10% of the time you'll be holding lanes of dead teammates, or, very rarely, defending against the top level dive. Ganking is almost always pointless, as you only have a red buff autoattack for CC before you hit lvl6.
On your first back, you'll have about 1k gold. I usually buy Spirit Stone, Boots1, a pink ward, 2-3 hp pots and 2-3 mana pots. The pink ward is a generally useful thing to have around middle lane or in your tribush. The pots allow you to clear until lvl6 and gank with full hp and mana. If you will get blue for yourself and if you aren't going to gank before you get it, buy only 0-1 mana pots.
Sometimes you'll want to take your blue, but in some cases your middle laner can make a better use of it. If they are skipping Chalice for Zhonyas, they probably need the mana to keep clearing the waves. If they are on a champion who either really needs or can use blue very well (Anivia or Kassadin for example) it might be better to give it. Conversely, if they died already or are going Chalice, you can probably make better use of it for faster clear and significantly stronger fights.
Although you don't have CC, your damage is very high. Getting invaded isn't an issue for Skarner unless you messed up and are behind on exp already. You can easily 1v1 most junglers and can even beat ones such as Lee Sin or Kha'Zix if your W isn't on a long cooldown at that point.
Shortly after lvl6:
Early midgame is the part of the game when you'll want to start doing a lot of stuff with Skarner. Let's get specific here: you hit lvl6 at about 6:30, somewhere in the neighborhood of the buff you took first. Although you might feel the urge to come to a lane asap, it might not be correct to do so. Firstly, it's probably rather obvious that you are close to the first buff you took and it becomes increasingly so as you approach the 7:00 time. Keep those things in mind when you are calculating whether a gank would work out or not.
Executing ganks is pretty easy, run up to or flash ultimate onto your target, should be an easy kill if you evaluated the situation correctly. Don't be shy to use flash, a flash that's not on cooldown is a resource you aren't using. I don't think I need to go into a great detail on this.
Now, back to the neighborhood of the first buff you took. At 7:40, it starts becoming increasingly obvious that you are close to the second buff you took. You can use this to your advantage or keep it in mind if that's where you actually are. After your 2 buffs, keep farming the jungle but keep your eye out on ganks, they are very powerful at this point. Top lane towerdives are an underutilized way to get kills that you should keep your eye out for as well.
You probably aren't strong enough to take either dragon or a tower off of a gank until about minute 9-10 or so. Around this point, You'll probably have to make an important decision: either you give up dragon for a top kill and hopefully top tower, or you contest dragon. It's not easy to know which one to go for, generally dragon is better as it gives you an option to push bottom or mid afterwards, but it's riskier. Generally, if their mid is winning and isn't easily killable, go for top tower, if the reverse is true try to force things middle or bottom. You can go for dragon opportunistically if the enemy backs at the wrong time or they themselves decide to go for top tower, though that often signifies that you made your attempt at either dragon or top tower a bit late.
Midgame and Lategame:
Depending on who is winning, you will either generally be pushing lanes or be pushed on.
If you are forced on the defensive, you will mostly keep farming the jungle. Placing a defensive pink ward can be good to deny vision. If the enemy splitpushes, you might be able to initiate a good teamfight with number advantage or gank the solo pusher. Don't forget farming though, it is important you have large amounts of gold and levels.
If it is your team that is pushing, you will probably have a great time initiating fights with your ultimate, catching people off and warding their jungle. Keep farming too, you are pretty weak when your ultimate is on cooldown. These things aren't really Skarner-specific and can be complicated so I don't actually want to go into massive depths on this, but very generally speaking you want to push when you flash ultimate is up and you can use it to initiate a good teamfight.
Laneswaps:
This chapter is going to be very short, given I don't have much experience with Skarner laneswaps. Skarner sucks in laneswaps. Skarner used to be bad in laneswaps because he is terrible at diving, because he doesn't have any CC or jumps and he is terrible at defending towers because all his waveclear is melee. The laneswaps changed a bit recently to 2v0 lanes mostly, but those also often involve middle lane roams where Skarner is completely useless. You probably want to farm up lvl6 as usual and hope your enemies don't get too much of an advantage from your absence in lanes. Careful level1 which could spot an enemy laneswap in time is highly preferred.
Teamfights:
Ok, let's explain teamfighting. Depending on the teamcomps, farm levels and situation there are 2 distinct ways you will teamfight: either initiating or defending.
If you are initiating, you the teamfight will start with you ultimating or flash ultimating someone. Depending on your team's followup, that can either be anyone who comes too close and overextends (including tanks) or it has to be a high priority target. Make sure that this ult you use on Shyvana isn't essential for killing the Twitch afterwards, etc. Pulling the tank is oftentimes a good idea if you are defending a tower, as tanks often come a bit too close.
After (hopefully) focusing the one target down, you go and autoattack and pretty much use skills on cooldown. Depending on the situation, make a clear decision to either focus the same targets your squishies are, or go chase the enemies'. It's hard to give guidelines on this, but generally if they have champions who ar every good at kiting (Orianna, Lucian) you probably want to attack the closest champion, while if they have something like Twitch and you have someone to dive in with you then it's probably a good idea to get them squishies.
Now, on the defensive. That'll happen either when the enemy engages on you (maybe with stuff like Malph ult etc.) or when they have a bunch of assasins who position far back. Let's talk about the second scenario.
So let's say the enemy team has a Katarina and then a bunch of generic dudes like Thresh etc. Katarina deals tons of dmg, she's the one you probably have to focus to win the teamfight. But since she positions far back (and maybe has Shihouin Yoruichi shunpo reflexes) you can't run up to her and ult her with your team being able to follow up.
In this case, you either have to have someone else on your team initiate, or wait for them to start a fight. Either way, you want to stay close to your priority targets that Katarina would focus. If there are bruisers nearly, autoattack and Q them and stuff, but save your ultimate for when kat jumps in. If she doesn't, maybe you shouldn't use your ultimate at all then, or only after the enemy team routs.
If the enemy team doesn't have any super scary assasins like that, but you get initiated on, you want to keep attacking the bruiser who is close to you and stuff. Either use your ultimate when you need it to finish off the bruiser that's close to you, or if they have a really scary squishy flash-ult them at a point when they are close enough and your team can follow up reasonably well.
Team composition:
Skarner synergizes very well with specific champions and conversely has very hard time dealing with others, it's important to recognize both of those before you pick Skarner.
Skarner works really well with champions who can provide a Movement Speed buff, which allows him to catch out people from further away and initiate teamfights more accurately. Skarner also works well with shields, as he doesn't have any repositioning skills to escape should he fall low on hp. Generally, Skarner prefers to have more of a teamfighting than a poking teamcomp, as he is useless in a poke-battle. So champions that work unusually well with Skarner are Lulu, Kayle, Karma, Morgana, Orianna, Zilean and similiar.
The list of Skarner's best counters is pretty much identical to his best allies: champions that can kite easily, racking up damage on him as you try to position for an initiate and champions that can shield the target you try to focus or in some other way exploit your focus on 1 character. However, while Skarner doesn't generally work well with poke, he can be excellent against poke if coupled with a movement speed boost or 2 to help initiate.
How to play against Skarner:
As mentioned above, Skarner is bad in laneswaps. If you have a powerful laneswap jungler yourself (such as Elise or Lee Sin), laneswapping can be a good idea, though probably not feasable in soloQ. Farmy pre-6 of Skarner is difficult to exploit, but with a good team composition and a bit of luck it can be used to gain an advantage.
Skarner's fights are strong after lvl6, although not uniquely so. There aren't really any anti-Skarner specific tricks when it comes to jungling after lvl6. He is rather slow at taking dragon, which can be used to your advantage. If you are a laner against Skarner, there aren't any specific things other than playing well. In top lane, make sure you don't agress unless your team would be able to get dragon in response to a top lane gank. Be especially careful of lane brushes in bottom lane and keep both sides of middle lane warded.
When it comes to teamfights, respect Skarner's flash ultimate range and account for any speed buffs that his team might have. Ideally you want to be the one initiating teamfights, as Skarner's ultimate has much less use then. Skarner doesn't have any jumps and so he can be easily focused in teamfights without proper protection. Forcing Dragon and Baron can be preferred over pushing, as Skarner can use his ultimate to drag enemies under towers, while he is very slow at taking Dragon and Baron and he isn't good at tanking them either. Getting a Quicksilver Sash as a squishy can be a very good idea, doubly so if you are an assasin who can't avoid getting in Skarner's ultimate range.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Relevant videos:
http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus/c/4480148
Showing how to carry over Q stacks between jungle camps as Skarner. All work in reverse with the exception of Wight-Wolf, which while possible is a pain in the ass as the Wight is ranged and does tons of dmg so pulling it out is not worth early and you don't need it after you get boots and more levels in W. Wraith-Red also possible but not shown because it's franky unnecessary.
An important thing to notice is that W duration is slightly longer than your Q stacks and because the W speed ramps up sometimes you have to use your W half a second before you finish a camp to carry over your stacks. Most important for Red-Golems.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Not interested in writing guides anymore, this one will not be updated.
Thanks to Slayer91 for suggestion superior mastery setup and other people who had good comments
And thanks to Ketara for convicing me to write this and giving me a good skeleton to write it off of.
+ Show Spoiler +
You know what's in the spoiler so if you hate it just don't click it
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Actually doesn't look bad.
Usually early and midgame you don't fight close fights, but mostly in uneven numbers like ganks and towerdives, which favours more damage. One of the reasons why jungler tend to build dmg earlygame and then go full tank. The 15% CC reduction could outweigh the extra dmg in some situations though, maybe worth adding as an option. Don't see that much value in the other masteries you get but I guess the same goes for the offensive masteries. I guess Legendary Guardian is nice but the spellweaving+executioner line is comparable imo.
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Hey bless you Scip
But we need more Base Stats discussion
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Is it worth it to make a video of how to carry your Q stacks between jungle camps or is that obvious and pointless?
going outside Ill bb in maybe like an hour or 2
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Not enough pictures. Sorry, I can only give you a 2/10.
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Why are lane swaps so bad specifically?
Also: why not wriggles vs elder lizard. Skarner doesn't have many AD ratios so I'd think that wriggles would be better.
Great guide. I'll catch and try 5 games as Skar Skar Skarner.
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On June 16 2014 02:52 obesechicken13 wrote:
Also: why not wriggles vs elder lizard. Skarner doesn't have many AD ratios so I'd think that wriggles would be better.
Great guide. I'll catch and try 5 games as Skar Skar Skarner.
Some points in favour of elder lizard:
*Skarner needs mana regeneration because he spams his spells to clear fast. Wriggles has no mana regeneration at all, whereas elder lizard gives back mana due to butcher.
*Wriggles needs too much time to be effective, whereas elder lizard is a huge power spike earlier.
*Wriggles is terrible if you lose control of your jungle in midgame and therefore more risky.
*Cooldown reduction is great on Skarner. You have spells that you want to spam and your ganks/teamfight presence relies heavily on your ultimate. So having your ultimate available more often due to elder lizard is a plus.
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Why don't you max E which is and I quote "the best skill in the whole game" - scip 2014?
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Ok I have 3 complaints.
First of all: You said he doesn't push well. I believe that with Iceborn you push pretty well, and if you get to a tower you can get it down in reasonable time. It isn't top-level, but it isn't as bad as you say it is.
Secondly: What is your itemization vs triple or quadruple (counting support) AP teams. I think that if you go Iceborn you just get bursted down, but if you go SV or banshees first you have no mana. On the other hand vs those teams you can often ult someone before they get their burst off so you can't really say he's a terrible pick in that situation
My third point is the level 4 E vs level 8 E. I believe level 4 E is better because:
- If you have blue buff, which you do most of the time with Scip's style, you can just use it on camps. Also with spirit stone you lose max 5 more mana per camp vs level 2 W. I also feel like level 1 vs level 2 W isn't significant enough to prevent you from taking E.
- I often felt in the games where I did level 8 E that I needed my E earlier, be it for a 3v3 botlane or a dragon fight or a countergank mid/top. You could just say take it at level 7 or 5 but in that case I'd indirectly trade a Q level for a W level, which is something I don't want.
- In Platinum and below you can actually pick up pre-6 kills with E ganks because people are retarded. Also counts for invades.
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On June 16 2014 02:44 Scip wrote:
Is it worth it to make a video of how to carry your Q stacks between jungle camps or is that obvious and pointless?
going outside Ill bb in maybe like an hour or 2
Worth imo, considering the wide variety of skill levels here in TL.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Wriggles is generally pretty terrible, not just on skarner but almost everyone
you need spirit stone for mana regen and lizard elder is the best item that builds out of that
also skarner has amazing ad ratios. 1.0 on his autoattack and 0.8 on his Q
Skarner pushes well 1v0 but if there is anyone on the enemy team he is pretty bad because he has no jump, no useful ranged skill and no CC besides his ult and a weakish slow. That's true for both early and lategame.
I haven't seen triple AP teams in a very very long time. I'm not exactly sure what to build, actually, My first thought is hexdrinker but I'm not confident enough about that yet. Might cause mana problems though it could be manageable if W is used more sparingly
You don't have blue from lvl5 to halfway to lvl7, which is a pretty big portion of where you'd use an E taken at lvl4. Using it on camps has an absolutely tiny effect on how fast you clear, most of the time it's the big creep that dies too slowly thats the problem. As for fights, I find the 2-4% extra movement speed shield that is significantly harder to break more useful, not to mention the mana problems you can have should the fight break out before you get blue. The fact it might be possible to pick kills up with it in lower levels is the only reason it's mentioned.
Skarner used to be bad in laneswaps because he sucked at diving due to having no jump and no cc and because he sucked at defending towers because all his waveclear is melee. Both of those things are still true, and while the new style does seem more like 2v0 from what I've seen it usually includes some kinds of roams in middle lane where skarner would be completely powerless.
Maybe Ill make the video about carrying Q stacks over tommorow, not sure how though.
I do max E losleb, but I max it last. Save the best for last imo.
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United States37500 Posts
I'm going Skarner only for jungle next week. Will be back with feedback.
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I almost never run into mana problems from level 5 to level 7, usually because I also do my first buy in that period, but that might just be me.
Could you maybe write something about invades, basically who you can 1v1 and who you can't 1v1 and what you should do if say you get invaded or a buff gets stolen.
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On June 16 2014 06:43 NeoIllusions wrote:
I'm going Skarner only for jungle next week. Will be back with feedback.
Scip getting banned if Neo does poorly.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Or if I question whether he actually played them games
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Pressing F5 from time to time is a good skill to have.
+ Show Spoiler [Shen'd material] +Because wriggle's doesn't give you mana sustain, which Skarner needs badly (he farms so fast because he can spam Q and W keeps him healthy and fast-moving; spirit stone is about enough to sustain Q usage but more and you start dropping mana).
Its damage is also on-hit magic damage, while Elder Lizard gives you AoE true damage. Considering how often you're in the thick of the fights it does more for you (in terms of dps it's almost as much as a sunfire cap in the midgame, considering the enemy MR).
Skarner is bad in laneswaps because compared to Lee, Elise, etc. he can't apply much pressure to the enemy offlaner for a dive, nor is he good at shoving a lane (for defense or offense) or damaging a tower. In a more indirect manner, it also hurts him because between needing his ultimate and having a really fast clear speed that you should want to leverage (through outleveling and earlier item timings, etc.) you really want to be afk farming as much as reasonably possible in the early game, but you tend to be required much more in lane swap situations.
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Ok, so it's a mana thing. From what I recall when I tried wriggles a long time ago with Kayle vs Spectral wraith the mana usage wasn't a big deal. Just used my abilities a bit less. Skarner more heavy I guess.
AoE true damage is awesome. AoE true damage as a dot feels like crap. Dots in general feel really bad because even when someone dies they get a chance to escape or a chance to return damage.
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I heard Skarner is a new Diablo dungeon
Also, even in shitlord MMR wriggles is still garbage and I'd pick spirit path any day. Its not just the mana, it speeds up your clears by 1-2 Qs, and also it means you can do things instead of having a garbage item.
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It's easy to look at Skarners skills and see AP ration AP ratio AP ratio AP ration -
What's your reasoning for AP vs AD runes/mastery? simply initial clear speed?
Also Abyssal, DFG for second damage item?
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Kayle's base mp5 is pretty much enough to sustain W usage (same with Kog before it became free), add the sigils from the big monsters and yeah, you're pretty comfortable in the jungle.
Skarner, Hecarim and Vi now? Another beast entirely. Even Nocturne empties his pool pretty fast using Q once or twice on each camp.
^ a bunch of Skarner's damage comes from autoattacks, especially early game when his Q is still low-level, and considering the stacking AS buff on it.
DFG only amplifies magic damage... which is maybe half of Q, E (that you max last so not much damage anyway) and R (which reduces your damage since you can't auto or E during it). You pay 3100 for it while you have no burst yourself and thinking "I've got 4s to wreck him" isn't really viable when you die in 2 yourself because you're so squishy and melee range on everything.
Abyssal is better when you have good base damage (since it's essentially penetration unless you buy void staff), which isn't Skarner's case. Q's magic base damage is really bad compared to the ratio.
TL;DR: you deal damage from spamming your abilities in the middle of the enemy team, so you get more out of living longer than from hitting a bit harder before you get exploded. Defensive AP itemisation is still AP with a side of utility, so just build tanky and abuse CDR and Sheen (Skarner has one of the highest base AD in the game) for your damage.
Plus half your AoE and 2/3rd of your single-target damage is physical damage anyway.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Skarner does have AP ratios on his skills, but they are bad when you compare them to his AD ratios. His Q has 0.4 AP ratio but also 0.8 (!!) AD ratio, which is just crazy, plus he has 1.0 AD ratio on his autoattacks. Not to mention you have an attack speed steroid and are reliant on autoattacking anyway so it's not like you can change your playstyle if you build AP. It's just really inefficient.
About wriggles, it's just a generally awful item. There's a reason why all the nocturnes you see build Lizard Elder even though everyone was getting a hardon about how noc and wriggles synergize well before the nerfs.
Ok I'll edit in the guide a bit in the evening, probably add 9/21/0 as an alternative or maybe as the main option, I'll see if there's a simple way to make the video about carrying over your Q stacks.
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0.4 AP ratio is actually the "same" as 0.8 AD ratio, since AD costs twice as much as AP :p
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
AD is found on better items though, namely on Lizard Elder, occasionally on Hexdrinker and (very rarely) on BotRK. AP isn't completely useless, his AP ratios are (albeit a small) reason of why IBG is so good on him, but it's not worth actually investing in them with offensive AP items.
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What do you think of movement speed quints? Or are the 6 AD from quints too useful to pass?
I can imagine the MS quints being very useful for later stages of the game although he already has a MS steroid
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Mspeed quints aren't very useful lategame because you hit the harder mspeed cap at 490 mspeed with just boots2 and your W. Early and midgame the extra AD is preferable for (slightly) faster farm and significantly stronger fights.
Yeah, thinking 9/21/0 should be the main option, the only mastery in offense past the first 9 that increase your jungling speed is the 3% dmg increase one and that one's negligable. Hard to justify getting a bit more dmg on champs when you can get 15% CC reduction and massive amounts of resists instead.
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United States37500 Posts
I haven't played many Junglers that aren't 21/9 this season. Even champions like Hec/Noc who I went 9/21 last season, I've switched over to.
Thoughts on Trinity Force? Would obv have to be instead of IBG otherwise too much wasted gold.
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I feel like you rely on your team to do damage. Which is sometimes fine and sometimes your team doesn't follow through on a fight and you just die 1v3/1v5. Skarner's strong but he feels horrible when behind whereas someone like Rengar can still at least do solo kills on squishies when behind.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I'd lie if I said that I tested triforce nearly enough to pass a definite judgment, but it doesn't seem as good as IBG on paper. I find that the 500 mana from IGB is not actually an overkill, not at the point when you want to be using your E promiscuously. The movement speed bonuses are cute, but I question their value when compared to the IBG slow, as you are probably at around the mspeed hardcap anyway. It does provide more damage, 30 AD and 30% atk spe isn't insignificant, same for the 200% instead of 125% sheen proc, but I think the slow from IBG, extra tanky stats, 10% cdr and 800 gold cheaper outweigh these advantages.
I'm not sure what to say about "relying on your team to do damage". That's not Skarner-specific, that's true for everyone.
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On June 16 2014 22:01 NeoIllusions wrote:
I haven't played many Junglers that aren't 21/9 this season. Even champions like Hec/Noc who I went 9/21 last season, I've switched over to.
Thoughts on Trinity Force? Would obv have to be instead of IBG otherwise too much wasted gold.
I tried it a couple times in the jungle and I just got blown up in the first real big fight. I feel like you really need the armor that IBG gives and tbh the damage from it isn't all that bad either.
While Triforce gives you a better chance at catching up to people, once you're actually in melee range of them IBG is better for chasing.
If you play Skarner top though its a good first buy vs most ranged and AP matchups. You could also go BotRK in those situations but I like my triforce just a little bit better.
Edit: I'd even say that as Skarner you rely less on your team to do damage compared to other junglers.
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Btw if people want it I could write something about Skarner top, although I'd also like to keep this just about jungle.
Edit: What do you think about replacing Expose weakness/blade weaving/spell weaving with Mental Force and Arcane mastery (the AP masteries)?
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On June 16 2014 22:01 NeoIllusions wrote:
I haven't played many Junglers that aren't 21/9 this season. Even champions like Hec/Noc who I went 9/21 last season, I've switched over to.
Thoughts on Trinity Force? Would obv have to be instead of IBG otherwise too much wasted gold.
Eh? Is the difference that big on Hecarim? Considering how is kit and especially W work, and how weak he is early on anyway I think I'd rather go 21 defense for extra safety and more Tenacity, even though Spell Weaving and Blade Weaving are really good on champions like him and Skarner.
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On June 16 2014 22:46 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 22:01 NeoIllusions wrote:
Edit: I'd even say that as Skarner you rely less on your team to do damage compared to other junglers.
Well I couldn't solo kill anyone with the build whereas with Rengar and Warwick I could solo kill squishies. That's what I mean by needing the team to do damage. He does decent persistent damage in the middle of a fight but if you want to win the fight sometimes just being in the middle of it and hoping their tanks die before you do doesn't work out.
All the reachable ult targets are tanky enough that you can't kill them by yourself. So you can only ult targets when your team is ready to follow you up.
The end game "damage to champions" isn't that high for me either compared to what I reach with Rengar jungle.
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United States37500 Posts
On June 16 2014 22:46 Scip wrote:
I'd lie if I said that I tested triforce nearly enough to pass a definite judgment, but it doesn't seem as good as IBG on paper. I find that the 500 mana from IGB is not actually an overkill, not at the point when you want to be using your E promiscuously. The movement speed bonuses are cute, but I question their value when compared to the IBG slow, as you are probably at around the mspeed hardcap anyway. It does provide more damage, 30 AD and 30% atk spe isn't insignificant, same for the 200% instead of 125% sheen proc, but I think the slow from IBG, extra tanky stats, 10% cdr and 800 gold cheaper outweigh these advantages.
I'm not sure what to say about "relying on your team to do damage". That's not Skarner-specific, that's true for everyone.
Ok, sounds good. My train of thought was focused on the MS but I think you're giving up too much just so you can possibility initiate slightly better. IBG does make you more well rounded.
I assume Glacial is normally the first buy, over Sheen?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Actually depends on gold, if you have enough to buy sheen straight away go for it, but I find that majority of the time I back with about 1k-1100 gold at that point which is only enough for glacial. If you only have 850 or so then it doesn't really matter much, just decide whether the extra armor or AP is going to be more useful.
About the movement speed, in ideal scenario it's pretty much incosequential. Hopefully you have like Lulu or Karma on your team who can just give you 60% mspeed instantly.
To justify mentioning Zephyr in the guide, after talking so much shit about %mspeed on Skarner, it really is only justifiable if you went ninja tabi for the early game survivability against a physical dmg only team AND you want a damage item AND you feel like the extra tenacity would be more helpful than, say, BotRK active. It's a tiny niche but Skarner doesn't have that many options to deviate from the cookie-cutter build so I went and mentioned it anyway.
For all you Shakedrizzles out there, what would be the simplest way to make a video about how to conserve your Q stacks? Could I make a recording on twitch and then cut it (in what program?) or is there a simpler way?
Yeah, damage dealt to champions usually isn't exactly stellar for Skarner. I'm not sure what you are getting at though. You can't just jump into the enemy team as Rengar or WW either if your team isn't there to follow up and Skarner DOES have enough damage to be a massive threat 1v1 or 2v2
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On June 16 2014 23:01 Scip wrote:
Actually depends on gold, if you have enough to buy sheen straight away go for it, but I find that majority of the time I back with about 1k-1100 gold at that point which is only enough for glacial. If you only have 850 or so then it doesn't really matter much, just decide whether the extra armor or AP is going to be more useful.
About the movement speed, in ideal scenario it's pretty much incosequential. Hopefully you have like Lulu or Karma on your team who can just give you 60% mspeed instantly.
To justify mentioning Zephyr in the guide, after talking so much shit about %mspeed on Skarner, it really is only justifiable if you went ninja tabi for the early game survivability against a physical dmg only team AND you want a damage item AND you feel like the extra tenacity would be more helpful than, say, BotRK active. It's a tiny niche but Skarner doesn't have that many options to deviate from the cookie-cutter build so I went and mentioned it anyway.
For all you Shakedrizzles out there, what would be the simplest way to make a video about how to conserve your Q stacks? Could I make a recording on twitch and then cut it (in what program?) or is there a simpler way?
Yeah, damage dealt to champions usually isn't exactly stellar for Skarner. I'm not sure what you are getting at though. You can't just jump into the enemy team as Rengar or WW either if your team isn't there to follow up and Skarner DOES have enough damage to be a massive threat 1v1 or 2v2
I'm just saying he won't solo kill anyone at full health. Like you need someone nearby. It's the same with Sejuani.
If Rengar catches someone out, he can definitely kill them. Skarner is definitely a better duelist than Rengar but Rengar will never duel him. And that doesn't feel great. A big reason carry junglers are always popular is because you can get kills with them and don't feel like you're doing bad.
Anyways, I did my 5 games on Skarner. He feels great and I would definitely recommend people give him a try.
Closing thoughts: I think ancient golem is a good alternative. It can let you build ninja tabis against an AD team but will of course make your ganks worse by reducing your damage if you finish it before completing sheen. And spectral wraith is decent too. Just 50 AP means 20 more damage on Q, 40 more shield on W, 35 on E, and 50 on the ult. It also gives 10% cdr. Compared to Eldar lizard which gives 30 AD on autos and the true damage dot and 24 damage on Q. Skarner's shield has a crazy high ratio.
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Rengar and Skarner just simply have different approaches to the 1v1. For example, a normal Skarner can 1v1 a lot of champions, but he can't burst. A normal Rengar can burst a carry but most of the time he can't 1v1 the enemy toplaner (at least in my games, I'm not sure)
The thing I like to do after I get Iceborn is to just walk top, start autoattacking the enemy top and just kill him outright. You do need vision on their jungler for this though. I don't feel like you can really do that on Rengar if the enemy is still at full HP.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well.
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On June 16 2014 23:48 Scip wrote:
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well.
That is what I'm implying. All the jungle items are gold inefficient when you just complete them and finishing another item can give you a burst of power which might be all you need to secure a kill in a gank.
I don't want to argue if you're not going to provide reasoning as to why these things I say are false. If you don't provide more reasoning I'll just leave this thread.
Sheen will definitely add more damage than finishing the jungle items. The proc is 90+ damage every few seconds on someone with a high base AD like skarner and the AP gives his abilities more damage. You might still suffer from a lack of damage but it helps by providing you with early damage. It gives more damage imo than even a fully completed spectral wraith.
I don't think Spectral wraith is strictly inferior unless the definition of strictly has changed. You can see it in the numbers above. Your Q is pretty much the same, and all your other abilities get a decent boost at the cost of lower damage autos and the true damage DoT.
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The damage on autoattacks from the lizard spirit outweights the additional damage on your E and ult, there's no discussion about that. Dealing more damage is also more interesting than the bigger shield (compare 10 more damage on Q, 30 more on his autos, their "cds", the 10+ dps from lizard's DoT, with 35 more HP on the shield and its cd).
Golem isn't that interesting because it grants you a tiny HP buffer and tenacity; you'll often want Mercs anyway so there's a bit of redundancy, and at the time you'd buy Kindlegem more damage will win you a fight way more decisively than more HP. It also makes your ganks more dangerous (you'll generally hit 6 and start ganking in that time frame, or right before).
If you need a HP buffer, you could always get a casual Giant's Belt since you're going to build Randuin's later. However since you have that shield and Skarner actually has pretty good base HP, you're better off HP-wise than a bunch of champions, and getting some resistances or damage first is 0K (be it mercs or shroud or sheen).
As for Sheen vs finishing the jungle item:
Sheen improves your single-target damage, that's it. Finishing the Lizard Spirit item gives you 30 more AD and the DoT, all of which will make your Q deal better AoE damage on the champs, and I'd argue that this + the autos will beat the Sheen proc on the big monsters too because Sheen will add ~70-80 physical damage every 2s at best, so around 35-40 dps. Your autos with the +30 AD will beat that, and +30 AD beats +40 AP on your Q too in terms of damage.
The build-up is also better, Sheen really doesn't do much until you have the full 1200 gold.
It's harder when fighting champs because they'll be moving and you want to chase and it's harder to use all your autos obviously, but I'd argue it's still better. It also gives you CDR which Skarner loves.
Edit: oh, right, meant to mention them but I forgot while typing. Since you want to avoid backing too often (inefficient use of your time, wasted farm opportunities, etc.) if you spent 2-3 minutes before you complete your item (likely more if you build Sheen first), that's 7.5 gp5 you pass on, so easily 200+ gold.
May not seem much, but for "annoying" items (like Sheen where you really want the complete item, or getting a Giant's Belt when you need it, or complete a Hexdrinker which combine is so cost-effective thanks to the passive) if that lets you buy them in one go it's really good because you know you won't have to recall again soon.
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Also don't forget the Conservation stacks. Those give you a lot of gold you'd be missing otherwise.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Alright, let's do some maths then shall we?
So you say that Sheen+Spirit Stone will give you more damage than Lizard Elder
At level 9, which is a pretty reasonable time to have one of these things, you have 88 base damage. So a Sheen proc every 2 seconds (it's actually a bit worse than that, but let's assume the ideal scenario here) is 44 single target DPS. At this point, it's not unreasonable to assume about 1 attack/second. That's just about what it is with max Q stack, so ideal scenario again, but not much more far-fetched than a sheen proc every 2s. That's 30 single target DPS for Lizard Elder.
Now let's look at abilities. With Sheen your Q does 10 more dmg thanks to the AP, with Lizard Elder it does 24 more damage. It's actually not far fetched to assume a Q every 2 seconds, so let's do that. Lizard Elder also does about 11 true dmg/second. I'm going to actually count it as 14, because it's not reduced by either armor or mres so it's reasonable to give it as much value as 14 physical dmg/second.
So Sheen adds 49 dmg/second to your dps assuming pretty much ideal scenario
Lizard Elder adds 56 dmg/second to your dps assuming pretty much ideal scenario
If you do buy Sheen, you'll notice you don't actually have that much more mana. That's because you need to use quite a few more Qs to clear out jungle camps so you actually lose mana when jungling.
To be fair, your abilities do slightly more with Sheen. Your ult does 25 more dmg, your W shields for 20 more and your E deals 17.5 more dmg. Which is all pretty worthless when compared to the 1. slightly higher autoattack+Q dmg Lizard Elder gives you and 2. the bonus gold passive 3. MUCH MUCH faster jungling and 4. better build path (double long sword is better than mana crystal+amp tome) but this one's pretty unimportant given that you often back with 1300 gold at that point
I didn't mention that Sheen is 100 gold cheaper but I also didn't account for the 10% cdr that Lizard Elder provides and that's a really fucking important part of that item too
So I think this is enough for a demonstration of why buying Sheen before you finish your jungle item is absolutely horrible. I could go ahead and use the same math to show that Lizard Elder is better than Spectral Wraith too but I'm sure you can do that yourself.
I don't like repeating myself, but I did say that if you disagree with me you might want to phrase your disagreements as questions. It's not just out of vain feeling of superiority and dominance (though that may or may not have a part in that) but also because I don't want people reading the comments to my guide, see these asinine suggestions and take them to heart. If your suggestion is actually good, it will be added to the guide (just like Slayer91's suggestion about 9/21/0 masteries that I'll edit in later)
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Ok I have switched to level 8 E.
When you taught me your style you said you almost always bought Spirit Visage, but now I see you building Banshees. Why exactly is this?
In other news, tonight we will discover if Skarner can carry me to Diamond V. Wish me luck!
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On June 17 2014 00:23 Alaric wrote:
The damage on autoattacks from the lizard spirit outweights the additional damage on your E and ult, there's no discussion about that. Dealing more damage is also more interesting than the bigger shield (compare 10 more damage on Q, 30 more on his autos, their "cds", the 10+ dps from lizard's DoT, with 35 more HP on the shield and its cd).
Golem isn't that interesting because it grants you a tiny HP buffer and tenacity; you'll often want Mercs anyway so there's a bit of redundancy, and at the time you'd buy Kindlegem more damage will win you a fight way more decisively than more HP. It also makes your ganks more dangerous (you'll generally hit 6 and start ganking in that time frame, or right before).
If you need a HP buffer, you could always get a casual Giant's Belt since you're going to build Randuin's later. However since you have that shield and Skarner actually has pretty good base HP, you're better off HP-wise than a bunch of champions, and getting some resistances or damage first is 0K (be it mercs or shroud or sheen).
As for Sheen vs finishing the jungle item:
Sheen improves your single-target damage, that's it. Finishing the Lizard Spirit item gives you 30 more AD and the DoT, all of which will make your Q deal better AoE damage on the champs, and I'd argue that this + the autos will beat the Sheen proc on the big monsters too because Sheen will add ~70-80 physical damage every 2s at best, so around 35-40 dps. Your autos with the +30 AD will beat that, and +30 AD beats +40 AP on your Q too in terms of damage.
The build-up is also better, Sheen really doesn't do much until you have the full 1200 gold.
It's harder when fighting champs because they'll be moving and you want to chase and it's harder to use all your autos obviously, but I'd argue it's still better. It also gives you CDR which Skarner loves.
Edit: oh, right, meant to mention them but I forgot while typing. Since you want to avoid backing too often (inefficient use of your time, wasted farm opportunities, etc.) if you spent 2-3 minutes before you complete your item (likely more if you build Sheen first), that's 7.5 gp5 you pass on, so easily 200+ gold.
May not seem much, but for "annoying" items (like Sheen where you really want the complete item, or getting a Giant's Belt when you need it, or complete a Hexdrinker which combine is so cost-effective thanks to the passive) if that lets you buy them in one go it's really good because you know you won't have to recall again soon.
Most of this is subjective but the 7.5 gp5 is wrong. Conservation gives at best .67 gp5 so in 3 minutes 120 gold.
On June 17 2014 00:26 Fildun wrote:
Also don't forget the Conservation stacks. Those give you a lot of gold you'd be missing otherwise.
It wasn't forgotten.
On June 17 2014 00:33 Scip wrote:
Alright, let's do some maths then shall we?
So you say that Sheen+Spirit Stone will give you more damage than Lizard Elder
At level 9, which is a pretty reasonable time to have one of these things, you have 88 base damage. So a Sheen proc every 2 seconds (it's actually a bit worse than that, but let's assume the ideal scenario here) is 44 single target DPS. At this point, it's not unreasonable to assume about 1 attack/second. That's just about what it is with max Q stack, so ideal scenario again, but not much more far-fetched than a sheen proc every 2s. That's 30 single target DPS for Lizard Elder.
Now let's look at abilities. With Sheen your Q does 10 more dmg thanks to the AP, with Lizard Elder it does 24 more damage. It's actually not far fetched to assume a Q every 2 seconds
I think that is a bit unreasonable. 2 seconds is a bit much but the numbers are good otherwise. Assuming 3 stacks on Q is also a bit high as it's equivalent to always assuming Tryn has 35% crit chance when he ganks from he jungle. Maybe he will sometimes but he won't usually.
While the overall dps is higher, I think dps is a bit of a loaded stat in that often you don't get to just stand still and autoattack champions. If that were the case you'd see Yasuo and Tryn in every game. No one would ever pick a Skarner at all and if they picked Annie or Kayle they'd go AD. If I wanted to bend the math to suggest that you get 2 autos and 2 Qs and a full rotation of your other abilities, then you gain 10*2(Q)+80*2(procs)+25+17.5 - 30*2(autos) - 14*4(elder lizard passive over 4 seconds) - 24*2 = 58.5(mixed) damage. Not a whole lot but something.
A case where I first saw the power of burst was when I tried Sheen first Jax vs Phage first Jax. On paper the Phage has the same dps because 20 damage per second and the boosts on Q and E are helpful, but in game people would rarely ever just stand and whack each other like that.
I'll concede the point that it's better to finish your jungle item than go sheen though. Whatever damage increase can be gained from Sheen probably isn't worth it.
, so let's do that. Lizard Elder also does about 11 true dmg/second. I'm going to actually count it as 14, because it's not reduced by either armor or mres so it's reasonable to give it as much value as 14 physical dmg/second.
So Sheen adds 49 dmg/second to your dps assuming pretty much ideal scenario
Lizard Elder adds 56 dmg/second to your dps assuming pretty much ideal scenario
If you do buy Sheen, you'll notice you don't actually have that much more mana. That's because you need to use quite a few more Qs to clear out jungle camps so you actually lose mana when jungling.
To be fair, your abilities do slightly more with Sheen. Your ult does 25 more dmg, your W shields for 20 more and your E deals 17.5 more dmg. Which is all pretty worthless when compared to the 1. slightly higher autoattack+Q dmg Lizard Elder gives you and 2. the bonus gold passive 3. MUCH MUCH faster jungling and 4. better build path (double long sword is better than mana crystal+amp tome) but this one's pretty unimportant given that you often back with 1300 gold at that point
I didn't mention that Sheen is 100 gold cheaper but I also didn't account for the 10% cdr that Lizard Elder provides and that's a really fucking important part of that item too
So I think this is enough for a demonstration of why buying Sheen before you finish your jungle item is absolutely horrible. I could go ahead and use the same math to show that Lizard Elder is better than Spectral Wraith too but I'm sure you can do that yourself.
I don't like repeating myself, but I did say that if you disagree with me you might want to phrase your disagreements as questions. It's not just out of vain feeling of superiority and dominance (though that may or may not have a part in that) but also because I don't want people reading the comments to my guide, see these asinine suggestions and take them to heart. If your suggestion is actually good, it will be added to the guide (just like Slayer91's suggestion about 9/21/0 masteries that I'll edit in later)
I've heard this excuse before and it really is just an excuse. It's fine to defend your articles as it's your creation but no one ever does it to "protect bronze readers from asinine advice." Most users won't read the entire thread. Your choice of words there with asinine also makes you sound very aggressive. Take it easy, I'm not here to insult you.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
The difference between Spirit Visage and Banshees is pretty small.
They both give pretty much the same amount of hp regen (Spirit visage has the 20hp5 and the 20% bonus regen passive, banshees gives 45hp5 after getting hit by a spell. The difference is negligable), Banshees gives 50 more hp and Spellshield while Spirit Visage gives 10% CDR. While with my normal build you are usually sitting at 32.5 CDR at that point, so the CDR would be nice, I find that the spellshield is usually more useful. At times when the spellshield isn't very useful, Locket is better than Spirit Visage anyway (the shield+aura easily outweigh the extra 15Mres and HP regen you'd get from Visage).
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Welp, my bad. Confused 1.5 stack per second and one stack every 1.5 second.
Please don't quote the whole posts and only the parts you reply too though, it makes you look like you write even more than me. 
Sheen vs Phage on Jax has different goals. You're in lane, the other guy won't let you hit him for free if you're stronger. So to increase your damage either you hit him harder before he deals with you, or you stick to him better. The goal of Phage is to have some early tankiness and the passive to chase down your opponent, thus getting more autos, while Sheen doesn't want to fight so much as to harass your opponent with quick burst he won't able to dodge.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
The Sheen Jax comparison fails. The reason why Sheen Jax is so scary is because so much of his damage in lane comes for Q+W+ult proc harass AND because he has mana issues in lane at that point. Skarner's damage is more sustainy and the mana you get is comparable to what you get from completing Lizard Elder.
One Q every 2 seconds is not unreasonable in the slightest. You have 12.5% CDR from your setup which puts Q cd at 3.06. If you autoattack once every 2 seconds it's a Q/2s. If you autoattack more, which is reasonable to assume, it's actually even more. 1 autoattack every second is a bit too optimistic, maybe it would be more accurate to change it to an auto every 1.25-1.5 seconds. Same for Sheen proc every 2 seconds, completely unrealistic, probably 3 seconds or so is a lot more so (because the cooldown starts only once the sheen proc is actually applied). You can adjust the math if you want to to this but it's not difficult to see the comparison isn't going to be kind to sheen.
Also didn't mention that the entire calculation was single target, it's way better for elder lizard if you hit your Q even once on more than 1 person
On June 17 2014 01:08 obesechicken13 wrote:
I've heard this excuse before and it really is just an excuse. It's fine to defend your articles as it's your creation but no one ever does it to "protect bronze readers from asinine advice." Most users won't read the entire thread. Your choice of words there with asinine also makes you sound very aggressive. Take it easy, I'm not here to insult you.
??? You presumably read the comments and you thought buying sheen instead of finishing lizard elder might be a good idea half a day ago
Missed this post earlier
On June 16 2014 22:50 Fildun wrote:
Btw if people want it I could write something about Skarner top, although I'd also like to keep this just about jungle.
Edit: What do you think about replacing Expose weakness/blade weaving/spell weaving with Mental Force and Arcane mastery (the AP masteries)?
The AP doesn't increase jungle speed almost at all and for fighting champions the spellweaving line will give you a lot more dmg. Top Skarner will not be included in this guide.
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On June 17 2014 00:07 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 23:48 Scip wrote:
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well. That is what I'm implying. All the jungle items are gold inefficient when you just complete them and finishing another item can give you a burst of power which might be all you need to secure a kill in a gank.
This argument makes no sense. The jungle items
A: Make you farm faster
B: Generate gold
Both of these are things you especially want as early as possible when you have time to farm the jungle and gold generating items obviously you want them early.
They are only cost inefficient assuming spirit stones stats are valueless, the point of converting the spirit stone is that its cost efficient assuming spirit stone is already bought and it pays for the spirit stone over the game so it becomes cost efficient.
So your logic has more holes than swiss cheese. You then go on the claim erroneously that Sheen would give more damage than Elderlizard, also not taking into account the amount of time in the jungle you save by taking elder lizard. (Using your justification from playing a lane champion with good burst damage and absolutely cannot be all-in'd meaning buying more DPS isn't that important)
You then proceed to get defensive when you are called out and say that you won't argue if everyone doesn't spoon feed exact proofs to you. Pretty toxic TBH.
Not to mention you said that "skarner won't solo kill anyone at full health" comparing him to Sejuani, a champion he out DPSes by probably about 2-3x once he finishes elder lizard. When anyone who plays any skarner finds out pretty fast that at least early-midgame you can kill people just as effectively as rengar. He is less strong at getting in melee range as rengar but finishing them once he reaches them which isnt that hard if you aren't spotted, or you are underestimated, with your W speed, E slow, and R ult, and redbuff.
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On June 17 2014 02:29 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:07 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 16 2014 23:48 Scip wrote:
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well. That is what I'm implying. All the jungle items are gold inefficient when you just complete them and finishing another item can give you a burst of power which might be all you need to secure a kill in a gank. They are only cost inefficient assuming spirit stones stats are valueless, the point of converting the spirit stone is that its cost efficient assuming spirit stone is already bought and it pays for the spirit stone over the game so it becomes cost efficient. You then proceed to get defensive when you are called out and say that you won't argue if everyone doesn't spoon feed exact proofs to you. Pretty toxic TBH. Not to mention you said that "skarner won't solo kill anyone at full health" comparing him to Sejuani, a champion he out DPSes by probably about 2-3x once he finishes elder lizard. When anyone who plays any skarner finds out pretty fast that at least early-midgame you can kill people just as effectively as rengar. He is less strong at getting in melee range as rengar but finishing them once he reaches them which isnt that hard if you aren't spotted, or you are underestimated, with your W speed, E slow, and R ult, and redbuff.
His reply was actually really good. I don't know how I'm being toxic. I acknowledge Skarner is a really good duelist. Like almost Udyr level good, just that good players won't try to fight him so it's like trying to kill someone with Sejuani. You provide the cc and other people deal the damage. If there are no other people it's almost impossible to get the solo kill. Sure with ult and red buff and catching someone unaware you might kill them, but that doesn't happen often.
I was a bit confused at first but I see now you're saying in the bolded part that the jungle items are gold efficient if you consider the butcher passive as hp/5 and mana/5. That's fair.
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On June 17 2014 02:56 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 02:29 Slayer91 wrote:On June 17 2014 00:07 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 16 2014 23:48 Scip wrote:
Yes, yes he can solo kill people from full health if they don't have a way of jumping over walls. That is, if you don't build Spectral Wraith which is just straight up awful, as it's pretty much strictly inferior to Lizard Elder or Ancient Golem, which is pretty bad too, considering the early value of damage not just on Skarner but on junglers in general.
Also, what do you mean by "less damage if you finish it before sheen"? Firstly it implies that you would consider building something other than jungle item first which is just terrible and secondly it imlies that you won't suffer from lack of damage after you do build sheen, which is untrue as well. That is what I'm implying. All the jungle items are gold inefficient when you just complete them and finishing another item can give you a burst of power which might be all you need to secure a kill in a gank. They are only cost inefficient assuming spirit stones stats are valueless, the point of converting the spirit stone is that its cost efficient assuming spirit stone is already bought and it pays for the spirit stone over the game so it becomes cost efficient. You then proceed to get defensive when you are called out and say that you won't argue if everyone doesn't spoon feed exact proofs to you. Pretty toxic TBH. Not to mention you said that "skarner won't solo kill anyone at full health" comparing him to Sejuani, a champion he out DPSes by probably about 2-3x once he finishes elder lizard. When anyone who plays any skarner finds out pretty fast that at least early-midgame you can kill people just as effectively as rengar. He is less strong at getting in melee range as rengar but finishing them once he reaches them which isnt that hard if you aren't spotted, or you are underestimated, with your W speed, E slow, and R ult, and redbuff. His reply was actually really good. I don't know how I'm being toxic. I acknowledge Skarner is a really good duelist. Like almost Udyr level good, just that good players won't try to fight him so it's like trying to kill someone with Sejuani. You provide the cc and other people deal the damage. If there are no other people it's almost impossible to get the solo kill. Sure with ult and red buff and catching someone unaware you might kill them, but that doesn't happen often. I was a bit confused at first but I see now you're saying in the bolded part that the jungle items are gold efficient if you consider the butcher passive as hp/5 and mana/5. That's fair.
The thing about being a jungler is that you're able to come from unexpected angles and fight people who would otherwise not want to fight. (They call it ganking)
You just said you provide the cc and other people provide the damage, but you seem to ignore the fact that skarner has actually really solid damage, and his main issue is staying in melee range.
Making speculations about good players not doing certain things tends to be pointless, considering how kills happen all the time even in LCS which is fairly close to the highest level of play and still these players apparently don't know enough to avoid being killed.
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Scip I meant more like if I wanted to write something about Skarner top could I also fit it in here or should I make a separate thread.
+ Show Spoiler +Teut post about fitting it in coming up in 3...2...1...
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
You can make a separate thread if you want to, naturally, not going to include it in this thread though.
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On June 17 2014 04:16 Fildun wrote:Scip I meant more like if I wanted to write something about Skarner top could I also fit it in here or should I make a separate thread. + Show Spoiler +Teut post about fitting it in coming up in 3...2...1...
You could play top skarner but I think you'd have trouble fitting it in the current meta.
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United States37500 Posts
Thoughts about the possible Skarner changes on the PBE?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
What's on PBE isn't relevant to the guide. It should be discussed in the PBE Discussion Thread rather than in the strategy section.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Added a video showing how to carry over Q stacks between jungle camps, edited a few passages to elaborate on parts where you had questions and changed the preferred mastery setup. More relevant comments always welcome!
Is there a way to embed the video in a nice way?
Is there a way to make cuts in the video in a simple way?
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United States37500 Posts
Well, looks like the Skarner changes are live tomorrow, so it's no longer PBE theorycraft. :O
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HALP HOW DO I PLAY NEW SKARNER SCIP.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I'll try out the new Skarner but if I don't like him I won't update this thread
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Would you go for Aspd rather than ad marks/quints now due to the AD ratio nerfs?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Yes, Aspd is significantly faster now.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Against everyone's expectations I don't mind the new Skarner. The guide will be updated, in time.
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Just went 11-3-21 with this build. The new skarner seems strong and the opponent riven called him broken... Lol. He definitely seems in a better place thats for sure.
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Broken sword, broken champ yo.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Different setup is optimal, attack speed reds and quints over AD due to massive AD ratio nerfs on Q
Will need to test out a different skill order (E at lvl2 specifically), might be slightly better, not convinced yet
Might want to try out Ancient Golem even though I loathe the item, I am compelled to with the massive AD nerfs
Playstyle hasn't changed at all, can't 1v1 and 2v2 people as well but still pretty beast, don't think that section needs updating.
Overall the changes were a slight nerf if you want my evaluation on it. Reasoning: massive nerfs to damage are not fully compensated for by lower cd on W outside fights, higher mspeed in fights and a pathetic stun. Not particularly important for this thread though.
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From what I saw of Crumbzz testing him full tank, he didn't do shit with Golem because he still dealt no damage (and the stun at early levels is way too short, also awkward to apply, for the utility to compensate).
If you say even with Lizard his damage is way lowered it doesn't sound good.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Well, with Lizard his damage is far lower than it used to be, because his Q ratio used to be 0.8 but is only 0.4 now.
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I just played a game with Skarner and although I was pretty fed I could 1v1 an Irelia without using my ult. IMO hybrid reds are better than attack speed. Also try feral flare, I saw a Skarner go for it and although his early game was a bit weaker he did crazy damage later on.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I already explained why Feral Flare is awful earlier in the thread (mana, way worse than Lizard Elder until 30 stacks and even then it's slightly worse)
You might want to explain your reasoning as to why you like hybrid pens more than attack speed because it's about as counterintuitive as it gets
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On June 22 2014 07:14 Scip wrote:
I already explained why Feral Flare is awful earlier in the thread (mana, way worse than Lizard Elder until 30 stacks and even then it's slightly worse)
You might want to explain your reasoning as to why you like hybrid pens more than attack speed because it's about as counterintuitive as it gets
Didn't read the entire thread so didn't see the point on Feral Flare. As for attack speed vs hybrid runes I feel like with q and attack speed quints I think you get enough attack speed, and the hybrid pen runes give you some extra strength when dueling. To be honest I haven't done thorough testing, was just shootin some ideas around.
Edit: I guess i worded my opinion on runes as fact so my bad there.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
15% attack speed on Skarner is about 0.09 attacks per second, with full stacks on Q at lvl9 and attack speed quints you have 1,1175 attack speed. So at this point attack speed reds increase your autoattack dps by about 8%. Against targets with 50 armor, the armor pen part will increase your physical dmg by about 5.7%, against targets with 75 armor by about 4.8%.
It's hard to estimate just how much the increased attack speed reduces your Q cd, but since at this point your attack speed is over 1.0 something like bit less than half of your CD cooldown gets reduced by autoattacks (and a bit more than half by time) so just estimating here and glossing over the higher granularity of damage from your Q the damage from it gets increased by about 3% from the extra attack speed.
Let's just cut the math short here because I wanna watch MLG Smash but if we take these values of 8% increased dmg from autoattacks + 3% increased dmg from Qs vs. about 5.5% increased dmg from autos and Qs it's better dps for autoattack runes (single target, still better if hitting about 1.5 targets on average iirc), so what the hybrid pen offer you is a bit more burst dmg on your ult+passive+E vs. the extra tiny amount of dps and faster clear (about 6s faster lvl4; 3:36 vs. 3:42). In favour of attack speed runes at this point. The runes value remain relatively same probably, as although you will get ibg later the enemies resistances shoot up rapidly then and attack speed provides a bit more utility allowing you to apply ibg procs a tiny bit more accurately+being way better if you dont have 3 Q stacks up.
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On June 22 2014 10:01 Scip wrote:
15% attack speed on Skarner is about 0.09 attacks per second, with full stacks on Q at lvl9 and attack speed quints you have 1,1175 attack speed. So at this point attack speed reds increase your autoattack dps by about 8%. Against targets with 50 armor, the armor pen part will increase your physical dmg by about 5.7%, against targets with 75 armor by about 4.8%.
It's hard to estimate just how much the increased attack speed reduces your Q cd, but since at this point your attack speed is over 1.0 something like bit less than half of your CD cooldown gets reduced by autoattacks (and a bit more than half by time) so just estimating here and glossing over the higher granularity of damage from your Q the damage from it gets increased by about 3% from the extra attack speed.
Let's just cut the math short here because I wanna watch MLG Smash but if we take these values of 8% increased dmg from autoattacks + 3% increased dmg from Qs vs. about 5.5% increased dmg from autos and Qs it's better dps for autoattack runes (single target, still better if hitting about 1.5 targets on average iirc), so what the hybrid pen offer you is a bit more burst dmg on your ult+passive+E vs. the extra tiny amount of dps and faster clear (about 6s faster lvl4; 3:36 vs. 3:42). In favour of attack speed runes at this point. The runes value remain relatively same probably, as although you will get ibg later the enemies resistances shoot up rapidly then and attack speed provides a bit more utility allowing you to apply ibg procs a tiny bit more accurately+being way better if you dont have 3 Q stacks up.
Ya that's fair. Not the biggest difference in the world but I'll have to try attack speed reds out.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Shoulda put more emphasis on the clear speed which is the big one, but Armada was playing
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On June 22 2014 06:54 Pibacc wrote:
IMO hybrid reds are better than attack speed.
you say this without backing up your opinion with any numbers or any kind of analysis at all. completely worthless, although you could probably claim that hybrid reds do more damage lategame it would still be a terrible idea because the benefit would be very marginal lategame and you would be way behind from all the advantage you lost from not using rune slots when they are most effective
they have a flat value they have most of their effect when everyone has less gold i.e early on, you want to snowball advantages such as more jungle farm and faster level 6
On June 22 2014 06:54 Pibacc wrote:
Also try feral flare, I saw a Skarner go for it and although his early game was a bit weaker he did crazy damage later on.
you saw ONE person build a certain item and do damage, and then say thats perfectly good causation for why he did "crazy damage" later on when theres no way you could tell the difference between a lizard skarner and a feral flare skarner considering he builds other items and you have no proper point of reference
even if it were good (it isn't), one perspective from one game doesn't show anything.
i get that you're trying to participate in the thread and being like "yayyy lets talk about our favourite game and all the fun things we can do" but these kind of posts dont belong in a strategy section of any forum.
i mean no shit the difference is going to be small but when you're making a direct comparision between things that have a small effect on their own anyway something like a 6 second clear difference is huge
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PJSalt 
User was warned for this post
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United States37500 Posts
Well, since I got called out by Scip for what is apparently reneging on giving feedback, I figured I'd come back with some firsthand experience from the 5-6 Skarner games I played a few weeks back.
First, the 21/9/0 mastery suggestion felt rather suboptimal (I noticed the OP has changed it to 9/21/0 now). I had games where I invaded the enemy junglers and games where I was invaded on and in both situations (pre-6) I felt like I couldn't duel very well. By the 3rd game, I switched to 9/21 and it definitely felt smoother early game. 21/9 seems good if you're avoidant of fights and all you want to do is rush to level 6, otherwise 9/21 is better imo.
E has to be skilled at least a point at level 4 otherwise you literally have to get into melee range to have any sort of CC applied. Now I know Scip doesn't like to gank pre-6 but I normally roam top or into the enemy jungle around level 3-4 and hope for some kind of pick so I had to build accordingly.
Now I think the main reason I moved on from Skarner is how incredibly reliant he is on Flash/Impale. Like people think Annie needs Flash up in order to initiate but it feels even more clunky with Skarner. Now that might be my own shortcomings being highlight on a champion like Skarner but his dependency on Flash is off-putting despite his solid jungle clears and fun to spam Qs. I felt like there were too many instances of me Flashing for a target and the enemy Flashing before I could hook the Impale. :<
That all said, the new Ancient Golem seems interesting for a tanky Skarner.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Oh Neo, I was just teasing you
+ Show Spoiler +
:3
but it would be rude of me not to respond to your feedback
Skilling E at lvl2 is almost certainly better than at lvl4 after the latest machete nerfs (you want to base at about lvl4 pretty much no matter what happens; it's faster than taking W at lvl2 but you lose more hp). Leveling it lvl8 is probably still an option too. I'm not sure if I elaborated on invading in the guide, but it will get you killed/make you blow your flash as your 1v1 isn't exactly great anymore nor do you have a jump.
Yeah, Skarner is REALLY reliant on flash. Need to manage it quite accurately.
And yeah, new Ancient Golem might be good.
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United States37500 Posts
On July 03 2014 10:49 Scip wrote:Oh Neo, I was just teasing you + Show Spoiler +:3 but it would be rude of me not to respond to your feedback Skilling E at lvl2 is almost certainly better than at lvl4 after the latest machete nerfs (you want to base at about lvl4 pretty much no matter what happens; it's faster than taking W at lvl2 but you lose more hp). Leveling it lvl8 is probably still an option too. I'm not sure if I elaborated on invading in the guide, but it will get you killed/make you blow your flash as your 1v1 isn't exactly great anymore nor do you have a jump. Yeah, Skarner is REALLY reliant on flash. Need to manage it quite accurately. And yeah, new Ancient Golem might be good.
I haven't played that much League in the past two weeks due to lack of time, so I'm definitely not going to try out a relatively new champion in Ranked, Scip. Sry to disappoint.
Yeah, QEQWQR is probably the other skill build. W first (@2) if you plan to roam Top with double buffs, otherwise E at level 2 if you're straight up clearing the jungle.
It might be considered gimmicky or cheesy but I do try to invade the enemy jungler at their buffs when I presume they're doing a full jungle clear themselves. So things like starting on Blue side and doing my Red and going straight to their Red is common for me. I know I'm banking a lot on 1) the enemy jungler being low and 2) I can either kill the enemy jungler or force him to run and then Smite steal one of his buffs. Now that's not to say Skarner is conducive to this strat but it just happens to be my play style early game.
Like I stated previously, I'm not keen on the reliance of Flash and I think I went back to Vi for a few games immediately following my series of Skarner matches.
Ancient Golem, would you just full tank or what would be your offensive item option here (if at all)?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Going your blue(+wolves I assume)-> your red -> their red area is pretty bad. If they do a standard clear you'll meet them at Wraiths with both of your smites on the same timer and as Skarner you have no burst to try to steal the big Wraith. Fighting in that area isn't gonna be very nice for you either, as you are a lot closer to the enemy tower and the position is favourable for the enemy middle laner.
If they do a less standard clear (Blue, Wolves, Red, Wraiths, Wolves) you'll come across an empty Wraith camp and not much else. Enemy will be lvl4 by the time they go into the red side of their jungle again so you can't even wait for them there as even small golems don't get you to 4, your only option that doesn't lose even more time is to lvl3 gank toplane which as Skarner isn't a very tantalizing prospect.
If they start at red buff you are most likely going to meet them at Wraiths again, in the pretty much the same situation as if they went for normal clear starting with blue.
And if they do some kind of a early gank then you are not in a very good place to generate counterplay, which would be in your jungle, farming lvl6 asap.
^^ keeping above paragraphs because they are good, but actually don't relate to what you're saying. What do you mean make them run away and smitesteal a buff? If they play a jungle who can actually afford to do 2 small camps before buff (Eve, Udyr, hell even Elise) then you're not gonna be there in time and their buff will already be gone. If they aren't, there still isn't a way for you to know in advance that that's going to happen, so this jungle path is just pre-emptively doing something stupid in case they do something stupid, that's not a style that's just bad.
Almost certainly insert a damage item after Ancient Golem, probably Triforce or IBG again.
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United States37500 Posts
I mean I'm on Blue side, I start my Red and then immediately go to their Red.
If enemy Jungler starts Golem, does Wolves or Wraiths, then go to Red, he's going to be lower health than me (unless he had an amazing pull) and we're both level 2. This works a little better too if mid lane is willing to use his trinket ward in the brush above Wraiths at around 1:45.
This works decently because of the brush location on purple side's Red buff. I just stand in there and wait for him to draw aggro first. Most junglers are in a hurry to finish their clear that they don't step into the brush to check until after drawing aggro or not even go into the brush at all.
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Well yeah you have to take account of the jungler too,if this is always what you do, about 80% of the junglers that can simply outduel skarner. you want to play the role skarner is good at not force him into a place he's not designed for
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skarner is a pretty damn good duelist just because neo gets rekt doenst mean anything
although his damage has been nerfed twice so im not sure exactly where he stands now
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On July 04 2014 01:12 Slayer91 wrote:
skarner is a pretty damn good duelist just because neo gets rekt doenst mean anything
although his damage has been nerfed twice so im not sure exactly where he stands now
he's annoying, in a direct duel he could take eve, and most utility junglers but not really anyone else, i was experimenting with it against even amumu and it's just not as reliable as i'd like, his MS isn't really high enough to safely escape, and he doesn't really have any burst either at that level.
lee sin/xin/elise/j4 are all ones that i just had to flash away from, it's possible but I don't see why you would try it, level 1 invade makes a lot more sense for him than trying to counter jungle.
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coutnerjungling is a bad idea anyway, you only need to worry about dueling someone who's level 2 and come to your red buff from their red
normally you have a pretty big advantage unless their team is pushing both lanes and can help before yours can
in terms of dueling he beats lee sin id say and definitely j4 later on, they rely on burst mostly so if you are ahead on farm which you should be you should be easily to deal with them easily, elise relies a lot on landing cocoon to do anything and xin has really slow farming too so he probably will be underfarmed for fighting you
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On July 08 2014 01:34 Slayer91 wrote:
coutnerjungling is a bad idea anyway, you only need to worry about dueling someone who's level 2 and come to your red buff from their red
normally you have a pretty big advantage unless their team is pushing both lanes and can help before yours can
in terms of dueling he beats lee sin id say and definitely j4 later on, they rely on burst mostly so if you are ahead on farm which you should be you should be easily to deal with them easily, elise relies a lot on landing cocoon to do anything and xin has really slow farming too so he probably will be underfarmed for fighting you
we're talking about early game though, xin early game beats about everyone if played correctly, that's the majority of the reason why he's still a viable pick.
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his clear is probably too slow to do anything with it
he's pretty good later but i cant confirm since ive only played like 5 games recently, mostly played him around the in season 3 and he was played a lot then and people never used his early game to invade much then either
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