EPTWhen Trundle goes Blue --> Wolves --> Red, he finishes Red at 3:00. Is that much slower than Eve or other "fast" clearers?
[Champion] Trundle Jungle - Page 2
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
When Trundle goes Blue --> Wolves --> Red, he finishes Red at 3:00. Is that much slower than Eve or other "fast" clearers? | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
I wouldn't be recommending mobility boots on Trundle. Especially given you recommend wriggles/BotRK as your first two items, and offensive masteries. I'm not clear on how you expect to survive against strong burst threats other than being cleanup. I disagree with maxing W second, at least without thinking about it or putting extra points in pillar first. Pillar is one of the strongest slows in the game, but its cooldown is atrocious if you wait to max it last (23 seconds, but it goes down 3 per level). And it's slow isn't that strong at level one (20% vs 45% maxed). Frozen Domain is also 60 mana, and it's not like you're using it on cooldown in the jungle because you're going to run out of mana extremely fast if you do. From my perspective, if you're going to do that, you probably should be playing Warwick, because he does the whole attack speed/feral flare without much defense early thing better and you're essentially forgoing one of the strongest parts of Trundle's kit. I feel like this guide with one very specific patch and playstyle and mind, and now that 4.5 is gone I really don't think it isn't that great. If people are really dumb and try to duel you 1v1 constantly as a melee, I guess it could work, but I'm not really seeing it. Going both wriggles and BotRK early seems so, so risky to me. Other people also mentioned it, but l also going to disagree with his clear speed being "pretty standard." It's god awful and always will be, even if being able to get wriggles now helps him a lot. Kayle is clearing camps late game in like 3-4 seconds, and its not like early game is favorable to Trundle either (and that's when it matter most). There's no upside to Trundle's clear, you're always going to have to sit and auto for an obnoxiously long time. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 12 2014 04:36 TangSC wrote: Just to go back to clear times. When Trundle goes Blue --> Wolves --> Red, he finishes Red at 3:00. Is that much slower than Eve or other "fast" clearers? yes, it's slower by about 15 seconds. Again, you can try that out yourself more full response inc. in a few hours | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On May 12 2014 04:43 zer0das wrote: I agree with Scip, if you're going to use your marks and quints on offense, I wouldn't use flat or scaling AD. Attack speed quints are significantly better due to the bonus AD from his q, wriggles being applied more frequently, the animation of his q speeding up, etc. That being said, I usually use movement speed quints. I don't see why you're valuing damage done when attacking a moving target over clear speed. I wouldn't be recommending mobility boots on Trundle. Especially given you recommend wriggles/BotRK as your first two items, and offensive masteries. I'm not clear on how you expect to survive against strong burst threats other than being cleanup. I disagree with maxing W second, at least without thinking about it or putting extra points in pillar first. Pillar is one of the strongest slows in the game, but its cooldown is atrocious if you wait to max it last (23 seconds, but it goes down 3 per level). And it's slow isn't that strong at level one (20% vs 45% maxed). Frozen Domain is also 60 mana, and it's not like you're using it on cooldown in the jungle because you're going to run out of mana extremely fast if you do. From my perspective, if you're going to do that, you probably should be playing Warwick, because he does the whole attack speed/feral flare without much defense early thing better and you're essentially forgoing one of the strongest parts of Trundle's kit. I feel like this guide with one very specific patch and playstyle and mind, and now that 4.5 is gone I really don't think it isn't that great. If people are really dumb and try to duel you 1v1 constantly as a melee, I guess it could work, but I'm not really seeing it. Going both wriggles and BotRK early seems so, so risky to me. Other people also mentioned it, but l also going to disagree with his clear speed being "pretty standard." It's god awful and always will be, even if being able to get wriggles now helps him a lot. Kayle is clearing camps late game in like 3-4 seconds, and its not like early game is favorable to Trundle either (and that's when it matter most). There's no upside to Trundle's clear, you're always going to have to sit and auto for an obnoxiously long time. Mobility boots were amazing when Feral Flare stacked/scaled better -- I still get it occasionally because I value the extra MS for ganks/farming, and can sell it for 560 then buy tabi for 1000. That being said, you can definitely go straight tabi or merc after BOTRK. I feel your fear about being stuck with only BOTRK/Mobi/Feral Flare. Even though the R/W/Life steal help, it's true you're basically a melee glass cannon. It's one of the weaknesses of the style, for sure. I'm rushing like a mad man for some health Rubys after BOTRK. The tankier version of Golem into BOTRK into Tabi into Visage is definitely sturdier. I highly disagree with upgrading E before W. There are very few situations where you're going to have an opportunity to get the second Pillar off in a gank situation. I think increasing the W's attack speed, move speed, and healing help in all possible scenarios (Jg/Gank/Teamfight/Objectives). One of the biggest advantages of Trundle in the middle stages is his ability to eat towers/dragons with Q/W. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
Pillar is rarely going to come up a 2nd or 3rd time in a teamfight/gank situation if you build super squishy- I suppose that is true. I guess that's my criticism of guide- you have a "style" and you stick to it, even though I would argue a lot of this is suboptimal/geared toward one specific patch. | ||
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Given that, I don't really understand why you'd run him in the jungle over Udyr, who is also a really strong duellist, but whose skillset seems more favorable to the jungle, while Trundles seems more favorable to laning. Maybe I'm just nuts. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 12 2014 04:24 TangSC wrote: The 3camp --> top is absolutely still a solid plan. Trinket wards don't guarantee an escape, and if the opponent's top leaves lane to ward, you or your top laner should see it (in which case you can opt either to go the long way around, to continue farming, or to gank mid). I say this as someone who prefers to spend all his time in the Jungle when possible: there are tons of reasons why going top after 3 camps is viable even if you're a farm-centric Jungler. In particular, there's a good chance the other Jungler will do the same, and Trundle loves early 1v1 or 2v2. If you don't go top by 3:30, then you risk their Jungler influencing the top lane. And yeah you could just say "well your top laner should ward and not die", and that's true, but I have no control over how top lane's going to play. At best, it's a situational thing that depends on the game. If their top is pushing, I'm going to go top 100% of the time at 3:15~. If our top is pushing, I'm either going 1) to run to the tribush area and put down a ward in their Jungle or top river, or (2) just keep farming. To go back to why I prefer AD over (Runes): When you're auto attacking with Trundle, you usually get 3 autos off before your Q. All of those auto attacks and the Q scale with AD. Attack speed only increases how many auto attacks you get off in between Q (and usually not enough to make the difference of you actually getting +1 auto). With proper use of W/Q, Trundle's attack speed is pretty fast, and the way his Q functions you can't just do a straight up equation and conclude that attack speed is better. One last bit of reasoning why I think AD > AS. In a gank situation with Trundle, you're often only going to get ~2 hits on the target (Auto/Q). The more running time there is, the more your opponent is trying to escape, the more Qs you'll be using as opposed to auto-attacking. The 3camp --> top gank is a solid plan if they didn't trinket, which happens extremely rarely. If they did, while not completely impossible for it to succeed it's just not worth the time to even try. Going around the long way loses you so much time that even if you force your opponent to flash and get him to half hp you can't really call it worth. Ganking middle is unlikely to succeed for the same reason, although there you also have the added "bonus" of possibly getting counterganked when the enemy middle laner runs into the river. If you're worried about your top laner getting ganked, tell him to place a ward and ping back when you see enemy on the minimap. Not something you should reccomend wasting 15+ seconds over. Yes, you might be good in 2v2s, but I think you'll find that your enemies aren't going to give them to you. Why can't I just use an equation to show that atk spe works better? Yeah, sometimes you might have to wait 0.4s or so to use your Q in order to get autoattack reset, but I wish you good luck showing that that's going to happen more often if you go attack speed runes than AD ones LOL. It's not just the equation, the tests show that early game the attack speed clearly does work better in combination with Q early. Note that attack speed is a lot better as well before lvl13, because your W won't be maxed then. Attack speed makes your attack animation faster, which means that in some cases it will give you more or less dmg than expected when chasing, but overall it's pretty much a wash. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Well, if you have a strong ganking jungler. Dunno about Trundle. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 12 2014 11:17 GolemMadness wrote: Double buffs into top gank is perfectly fine, but obviously depends on the situation. Which jungler are you? Who's their top laner? Who's your top laner? Where's the wave? Has he warded? How aggressively is he playing? What are his runes/masteries/starting items? Which jungler do they have, where did he start, and how fast does he clear compared to you? Who wins the 2v2? If you want to say something useful you might want to tell us in which of those scenarios it is a good idea to lvl3 top, in your opinion | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 12 2014 11:30 Scip wrote: If you want to say something useful you might want to tell us in which of those scenarios it is a good idea to lvl3 top, in your opinion How is that not useful? It's a combination of things. Those are some of the factors you should take into account. The ideal situation would be something like if the enemy top laner is pushing hard, playing aggressively, has no escapes, is squishy, your top laner has good CC and burst, you are a strong early ganker, they haven't warded and their jungler has a slow clear and is weak early or will be on the other side of the map. Obviously it's an unlikely scenario, but again, you need to consider those sorts of things before deciding if ganking top at level 3 is a good idea. You can't just say "Ganking top at level 3 is good/bad". | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
I never said lvl3 is bad, I said it's extremely unlikely to be good because almost everyone wards for it, in which case it's a waste of time/not worth trying. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
The point is that making informed decisions and knowing why you're making them is how you improve. Simply saying, "It's probably warded, don't do it" clearly isn't ideal advice. Instead, "Look to see if they're warding or ask your top laner, then make your decision based on these variables" is more optimal. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 12 2014 04:24 TangSC wrote: If their top is pushing, I'm going to go top 100% of the time at 3:15~. If our top is pushing, I'm either going 1) to run to the tribush area and put down a ward in their Jungle or top river, or (2) just keep farming. this is the part I was responding to so I guess you agree with me ? | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
tangsc is smugly pointing out that he gets kills all the time with this tactic so it must be good and scip is smugly pointing out LOL IM PLAYING AT SUCH A HIGH LEVEL THAT COMMONER STUFF DOESNT WORK ANYMORE BROHAN | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On May 12 2014 21:08 Slayer91 wrote: you guys are just tangsc is smugly pointing out that he gets kills all the time with this tactic so it must be good and scip is smugly pointing out LOL IM PLAYING AT SUCH A HIGH LEVEL THAT COMMONER STUFF DOESNT WORK ANYMORE BROHAN Well I hope I'm not being smug lol I think it's a fair discussion anyway. I just feel like if you can go in and influence the top lane early (get kill/assist, burn flash, do damage), then it's often worth the few seconds it takes away from farming. It has worked fairly well in my own games, and I've seen it in the Jungler streams that I occasionally tune into. What I'm saying is: Of course it's situational, but it's generally a good idea to go top after clearing buffs, and I'm personally convinced it should be a general recommendation for Junglers. But then, others disagree, so obviously it's not as simple as "Just go top". There have been a few questions about "why Trundle/Jungle? Why not play Trundle top or Udyr jg?" Trundle top is awesome against most melee champs and I play it, it's just not what this guide is. I'm not saying people should stop playing Trundle top, but Jungle/Trundle is a different animal. I main Trundle/Jungle, it's my best champion/role by far, and I think there's a lot of hidden potential in it. What he lacks in straight-up clear time he makes up for in sustain (you don't have to back as often or as early). Also, Trundle really is an absolute monster in the midgame, ultimate is unique and very effective, his q/w give monstrous stats, he can get in and out of most engagements, and his E Spell (Pillar) has so many practical uses from saving allies to trapping enemies to landing assists. Finally, Trundle synergizes so well with his core items (Botrk/Visage/Randuins) -- throughout the course of a team fight, Trundle can sustain as much HP as a "pure" tank while dealing more damage. | ||
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