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[Champion] Trundle Jungle

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-14 19:46:22
May 09 2014 16:40 GMT
#1
[Champion] Trundle Jungle -- The Pillar of the Team

[image loading]


Introduction

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Good day ladies and gentlemen of Team Liquid!

I'm seriously thrilled to present my first LoL guide on Trundle. Thank you very much for showing your interest and for checking it out. I know that Trundle in the Jungle is a bit rare in the current meta-game and that most professional players prefer Junglers like Nocturne, Kha'zix, and Vi. But I'm not here to tell you that Trundle is the undisputed best Jungler or anything like that, I just want to show you that he can be very effective if you understand his strengths and limitations.


A Little About Me: All Inspiration aka TangSC

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This section is not actually related to the guide, it's just a blurb about my experience in gaming and my reasons for writing. So if you're not interested, I will not be offended if you skip to the next section. That being said I would appreciate if you did read it!

My name is Tim, I go by "All Inspiration" in-game, and I main Trundle in the Jungle. Before I was introduced to Trundle and League of Legends, I played StarCraft II -- a game that I still play and have immense passion for. I'm a huge nerd when it comes to competitive gaming, and I've travelled to all the big SC2 tournaments in Toronto like NASL, WCS, and CSL. To me, watching a live gaming tournament is as exciting as any sporting event (or any other event, really!). While I never made it to the grand finals of a major tournament, I'm proud of my accomplishments in SC2.

My highest in-game achievements were the times when I reached Grandmaster (top two hundred in North America). I also placed and won some smaller tournaments along the way. Competing in ladder games and small tournaments helped to satisfy my competitive drive, and also gave me knowledge and experience to get more involved in the community.

I started writing StarCraft II strategy guides in 2011. Initially I wrote about the strategies that I was doing, and later I wrote about what the professional players were doing. I also wrote articles for GL HF Magazine and TL Strategy on everything from SC2 mechanics to positive mindset. After my first few guides, people started contacting me asking if I coached, so I started offering 1-on-1 lessons over Skype. I traded coaching for graphic art and web development, which is when I founded my first website: www.TangStarcraft.com. In my first year of university, my part-time job was coaching StarCraft for 10$ an hour!

By 2012, I had coached students from every continent except Antarctica (I still offer a 50% discount for Antarcticans but unfortunately no one has come forward yet). I was really lucky that I got involved in coaching when I did, and I'm very thankful that my guides and website have been successful. But I also worked very, very hard -- I spent countless hours over the past three years writing guides, streaming tutorials, and coaching students. It has taught me a ton, not only about gaming and writing, but also about people and the way they learn. If there is one thing that has helped me as a writer, a coach, and a gamer, it is that I am always trying to improve and I always take feedback/criticism seriously. I do not get angry when people disagree with me, in fact that's often when I learn and realize my own mistakes.

Season 4 is my first season of League of Legends, I placed in Silver III and did all I could to climb to Plat V over the course of a few months. I'm aware that my knowledge of the game is very limited, and so I humbly approach writing this guide -- I know it won't be perfect (yet!). So take everything with a grain of salt, and don't be afraid to disagree with me. But do understand that I am fiercely dedicated to improvement in the games that I play, that I've played nearly 600 games of Trundle in the Jungle this season (the most in North America), and that I aim to reach diamond in the coming months. Also, I'm thoroughly convinced that Trundle is an absolute monster. I will always take your honest feedback and criticism very seriously, but I ask you to respect the time and effort that I've put into this guide, and avoid comments like "Trundle sucks, can only be played top, isn't viable in current meta, etc."

To those who read all that, thank you very much! Now on to the Trundle


Jungle Mindset -- The Pillar of the Team:

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In this section, I will be expressing my own opinions on Jungle mindset. Whether you agree or disagree with me, please feel free to comment with some of your thoughts on the topic. Keep in mind I am no LCS God, I am simply a mere mortal with a couple theories about how best to approach this role in this game. In my opinion, there are two three key traits for a Jungler to have: (1) Relentless Optimism, (2) Unshakable Confidence, and (3) Fierce Determination to Improve.

Here is a sample game to show Trundle / Jungle / Mindset.

(1) Relentless Optimism -- The Pillar of the Team

As Jungler, I believe it is my duty to do everything in my power to support the team and help win the game. That means not only making smart decisions in-game, but also smart decisions about how to interact with my teammates. In my experience, any form of negativity or distrust can set a teammate off, so try to avoid negativity completely. It is true that some teams are just fated to devolve into a rage-fest, and that sometimes there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that. Still, the approach of relentless optimism gives the best opportunity for teamwork and cooperation, and the best chance of avoiding arguments or worse those "troll" games.

Relentless optimism is believing that you are going to win the game, and trusting that your allies will meaningfully contribute to that. I try to always make positives comments in the loading screen like "I like our team composition" or "good bans." These small comments set the tone for open communication and positivity in the team. Likewise, I will respond to any negative comments with positivity. If someone says "Our team composition sucks", I'll step in and say "nah man, we got this." Even when I think the opponents' team composition is better than ours, I never communicate any kind of pessimism to the team, because that stuff breeds and festers.

I mentioned that relentless optimism is about trusting in your allies -- I could restate that point 100 times. It is so important to trust your allies, even when they're doing poorly. There is nothing worse or more corruptive in this game than teammates who don't trust each other. It can be something so small, your top laner types "..." when the mid laner gives up first blood, and that's all it takes for the mid-laner to become rattled, and for the whole team to suffer. Then when top lane dies, mid-laner calls him a noob. Then bot lane says "stfu all of you", and then they die because they were typing instead of focusing. Now by 4 minutes everyone on the team has died, they're all standing at the fountain raging at each other, and you sit there in the Jungle thinking there's nothing you could do about it. But there was something you could have done.

Guys, get in there and show support for your teammates when they're struggling, don't give things a chance to go wrong. When my mid laner gives up first blood, I want to have the first comment in chat saying: "Don't worry about it man, we got this" or "sorry I couldn't help, I'll try to gank later" or "ohh that was close, you'll get him next time." I don't want give anyone else on the team a chance to say something negative like "wtf" or "come on man stop feeding". I let my struggling allies know that I trust them, and that we are going to come through it and win. And I don't do this because I'm a nice guy who's trying to win a good-manner medal by making everyone feel great about themselves, I do it because I'm competitive and I want to win the damn game! Seriously, you'll never know how many "troll" games you can avoid until you approach the situation with respect, trust, and relentless optimism.

I'm going to ramble on a bit about this. I think some LoL players see it as their right to educate and instruct other teammates, and even though some feedback and criticism is meant constructively, most times it is only going to set people off. That's why I think it's a mistake to try to tell players what they could have done better -- even if you have good advice, that person is not in the mood to hear it when they are waiting impatiently to respawn. The best approach is not to get involved in giving feedback/advice during games.

That being said, sometimes the Jungler needs to communicate important information to your teammates, and they're not always receptive of it. For example, if your top lane is 0-4 and keeps suiciding 1v1 against an already-strong Jax, the rest of the team needs him to do one thing: stop dying. But if you just say "stop dying, stop feeding" etc, the guy is probably not going to listen. This is an opportunity for the Pillar of the Team to keep communication open. Go with a humble approach, something like: "sorry haven't helped top, will be there soon" or "hang at the tower til we can get a gank off homie." These are the types of comments that can keep your allies focused and invested in the game -- it can and often does make the difference of winning or losing a game.

Another example: The team needs to group as 5, but that top player from earlier refuses. Most teams go with the "Group now. NOW. NOW!!!!" approach. Yelling at someone to convince them to do what you want rarely works in person; do you think it's going to work online? You have to be a bit more tactful with your persuasive approach. All players want to win the game, so appeal to that instead. If you've been respectful and encouraging of your struggling top laner, he may already be more likely to work with you. Then if you say "if we group now, we can win a teamfight and the game," most times he'll join the group. The point is that if you approach these types of situations with relentless optimism, you really can be the pillar the keeps teams working together. That is, if you can keep your composure I know it ain't easy sometimes.

(2) Unshakable Confidence

One way to keep your composure is to have unshakable confidence. If there is one thing that competitive athletes share, it is confidence. Watch any interview with Muhammad Ali and you'll see what I mean. Confidence is a necessary ingredient for success; it cannot be denied. As a Jungler, you have to make on-the-fly decisions all the time that impact the whole team -- there is no time to second guess yourself. The last section was about trusting your allies; this section is about trusting yourself. You have to know deep down that when shit hits the fan, and it's going down, you're going to make the best decision possible without hesitation.

Of course, you won't always make the best decisions. We aren't perfect, we make mistakes, but making mistakes shouldn't shake our confidence. Just because you made a silly tower dive at level 3 doesn't mean you're going to throw the game later. Trust yourself to make the best possible next decision. Sometimes your allies or opponents will say things that will rattle you, like you'll die and the opponent will laugh at you or an ally will call you a noob or something. But if you're confident, you don't pay attention to that -- you know deep down that you usually make the right decisions, and that overall your play is solid. Don't let mistakes or what others say effect your mindset during a game. When I'm having a bad game with Trundle, I just remember all those towers I've eaten and all those fish (Fizz allies) I've saved. That helps me to ignore any pointless ranting, and focus on what needs to be done in the game at present.

There is a way to take confidence to the next level in a way that may benefit the team. If you're confident in your play, making mistakes shouldn't hurt your pride. You recognize mistakes are inevitable, and they're important for improvement. So if you find yourself aware that you just made a mistake, you can acknowledge it honestly: "sorry guys I dove a bit too hard there," "woops I focus fired the wrong target in that team fight", "ahh I could have saved you there, my fault." These types of comments may discourage your allies from raging at you and typing out in chat everything that is wrong with how you play.

If someone does still rage at you or type at length about what you could have done better, just ignore them for the most part, or you could say something like: "you're right, but let's move on and win." A lot of feedback that you get in League of Legends won't be true or helpful, and do you think your emotional teammate is the person who is going to give you the straight facts that you need to improve? Probably not, and an argument in League of Legends can take all day to be resolved -- we don't have that kind of time during the game.

I'd like to tell you that I take feedback well, 100% of the time, but when I just died and someone's telling me all about the monumental mistake I just made that's going to cause all of League of Legends to crash and the world itself to end, sometimes I just want to tell them to shut up and play the damn game. I know when I'm not making good decisions, it tells me in the top right of the screen. What I want to hear from my teammates when I'm not playing well is that they have my back, and that they're still confident and invested in winning this game. Then I'll turn my 0-6 into 6-6, and I'll be there when their Nexus falls, boldly biting Renekton in the face.

(3) Fierce Determination to Improve

I make this last point to keep confidence and optimism "in check." Yes, we want to be relentlessly optimistic about winning the game, and unshakably confident in our ability to make good decisions, but there has to be some kind of limit -- we can't be so blind as to think we actually will always win and always make the right decisions. It would not be very helpful if someone was so confident that if they view their mistakes as good moves. You have to be willing to see your mistakes as they are.

That's why I think it is important to look hungrily for the good bits of feedback and advice that people give. It's true that most times, your angry teammates aren't going to have sound advice for you. But sometimes they actually make some meaningful points, sometimes the person that's trying to hurt you actually ends up telling you what you need to hear. Truth can be found in strange places, so be open to it. There was a game I played where I kept dying first in team fights with Trundle. I was built tanky and thought it was natural that I died first in engagements, but we kept losing the fights and one player on the team kept raging at me. He wasn't saying anything helpful at all, just calling me a fool over and over in much harsher words. Finally, after about 10 minutes of his spamming, I just said: "what should I have done?" and he said "PEEEEEEL." The next team fight, I focused 100% on peeling for the hyper-carries (Xerath/Cait), and we won the fight and the game convincingly. Basically what I'm saying is be optimistic and be confident, but always look for ways to improve. Your optimism and confidence should come in part from the fact that you are always willing to get better.


Trundle Basics: Spells Overview:

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Click Here for Tutorial 1: Trundle Basics Overview: Spells, Sustain, Jungle Path, Ganking

Click Here to view Trundle's Wiki Page.

(Passive) King's Tribute:

"When an enemy unit dies near Trundle, he heals for a percentage of its maximum health."

This passive ability contributes so well to Trundle's overall sustain/tankiness. In the early stages, it helps by returning HP after every slain Jungle monster. In the later stages, it helps sustain in group engagements and teamfights. It's an all-around great passive boost that will save you more times than you can count.

(Q) Chomp

"Trundle bites his opponent, dealing damage, briefly slowing and sapping some of their attack damage."

This is a fairly basic Q spell that drastically increases Trundle's DPS when used correctly. Chomp is an auto-attack reset, which means it is best used after an auto-attack. The ideal scenario is to go Auto-Q-Auto-Auto-Auto-Q and so forth. This spell scales with Attack Damage, which is one of the reasons that Attack Damage is a highly valuable stat on Trundle.

Chomp also has a few "minor" effects: it increases Trundle's attack damage for the next few seconds, it decreases the target's attack damage, and it slightly slows the target as well. Q should be the first spell you look to level up, period.

(W) Frozen Domain

"Trundle turns target location into his domain, gaining Attack Speed, Movement Speed, and increased healing from all sources."

This may be Trundle's most underrated spell. It's essentially a circular "steroid" that increases Trundle's stats enormously. At the highest level, it increase attack speed by 80%, movement speed by 40%, and all healing by 20%! It's an enormous boost, but you only get it when you stand on the circle. So, of course, you want to fight on the circle whenever possible. This spell makes a big difference in the Jungle too, helping to kill faster and sustain more HP.

Frozen domain should be the second spell you look to level up.

(E) Pillar of Ice

"Trundle creates an Ice Pillar at the target location, becoming impassable terrain and slowing all nearby enemies."

My personal favourite spell in the game, Pillar of Ice is Trundle's main source of CC. It's basically a skill shot, and there is nothing in this world more satisfying than a well-placed Pillar! Pillar can be used to trap a fleeing enemy, to save an ally who is being chased, to cut off enemies in a team fight, to "peel" for your carries, and even to pick up an assist on a kill.

Here is a clip of a "Pillar Assist"

It takes some games with Trundle to fully-realize the value of this spell, because a misplaced Pillar can actually hurt you and your team. So you need to be careful with how you use this.

You should upgrade this spell last, getting 1 point at level 3 and then maxing out all the other spells first.

(R) Subjugate

"Trundle immediately steals a percent of his target's Health, Armor, and Magic Resist. Over the next four seconds the amount of Health, Armor, and Magic Resist stolen is doubled."

This spell is a little confusing, but useful none-the-less. Trundle's ultimate is an immediate "burst" spell that leeches 10% of your opponent's HP instantly, and that amount doubles over 4 seconds (so you steal another 10% HP over 4 seconds). You also immediately steal 20% of their Armor/Magic Resist, which doubles over 4 seconds. So 4 seconds after you cast Subjugate on someone, you have 40% of their HP/Armor, which lasts for another 4 seconds.

This is a really significant spell that can make the difference in team fights and 1v1s.


Strengths:

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I've broken down Trundle's strengths into 5 main points. There are other strengths and points to be made, but these are the big ones:

1) Strong sustain in Jungle (+ Healing from Passive and W)

Click Here to watch a clip of Trundle sustaining in the Jungle until Wriggles.

Trundle's No. 1 advantage as a champion is his sustain. In the jungle, he gets bonus healing from his passive, his W, and his Jungle item which keeps his HP high in the early stages. It is very possible for Trundle to back with 1250 for Mobility Boots and Madreds Razor, or even with 1500 for the full Wriggles. You can even push it for 1600 and get a pink Vision Ward then go solo Dragon at 7:15, I have done it.

2) Strong sustain in Team Fights (+ Synergistic Healing from Passive, W, R, Life Steal, Spirit Visage, Blade of the Ruined King)

Click Here to watch Trundle survive a tower dive because of his high sustain.
Click here for a clip of sustain-tanking in teamfights.
Click here for a clip of sustain-tanking an early Baron.

Trundle needs to take damage for his carries, which means he needs to get as tanky as possible. This obviously means building items with HP and Resistances, but it is also important to note that sustain is a form of tankiness! Trundle can sustain hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of HP over the course of an engagements (more detail on this in items section).

3) Strong duelist (Excellent in 1v1 Melee, Q/W/R helpful)

Click here for a clip of a duel with Warwick.

We cannot deny -- Trundle is a Class "A" Melee Duelist. His Q and his W spells alone make endangered anything in melee-range -- these increase Attack Damage and Attack Speed while reducing opponent's attack damage.

His ultimate R spell is designed for 1 on 1 combat. It instantly steals a portion of their Health/Resistances, it's a win/win situation.

4) Fast chaser (Ghost + W + E + BOTRK Slow)

Click Here to watch a clip of Trundle's spells (Pillar) being used to trap enemies and flee from death.

Trundle relies on boosting his movement speed to catch up with fleeing opponents. That is why Ghost is recommend for Trundle, because combined with his W he can chase most champions down. His E spell is also great for trapping and slowing opponents, and items like BOTRK and Randuins can slow opponents as well.

5) Overall excellent DPS (Breaker-Status Champion)

Click here for a clip of Trundle eating towers and saving fish.

Some have called Trundle a "Tanky-Bruiser," but this label doesn't do Trundle justice -- Trundle is more of a Tanky-Breaker. Once Trundle has his Q and W leveled with BOTRK and Feral Flare, his DPS rivals the best of them. He's one of the fastest dragon- and tower-eaters in the game, it's seriously sick, and that's one of the reasons he excels in securing mid-game objectives. If he's given a second offensive item, Trundle damage is a big factor all game long.


Limitations:

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I must be fair and honest: Trundle/Jungle is not all sunshine and roses. He has some serious limitations that you must be aware of when you play him. These next 5 points aren't all of Trundle's weaknesses, but these are the big ones:

1) Limited ganking potential (No guaranteed gap closer or CC)

If someone were to say that Trundle is more of a farming jungle than a ganking jungle, then I would agree. It's not that Trundle can't gank -- Ghost/W/E spells can be used to secure kills in lane -- but Trundle has no instant/guaranteed gap closer like Xin Xhao or Kha'zix. That means that even if you land the perfect Pillar, the opponent may still escape. Trundle's ganks are best when you save Pillar until after your target flashes -- then they'll really be trapped. Or you can camp a lane, burning their flash on the first gank and then securing the kill on the second one.

Click Here to view of clip of Trundle "camping" top (2 ganks)

2) Weak to CC (Stuns, slows, pulls and other CC severely hinders Trundle)

I think this is the most important weakness of Trundle's. Remember that Trundle's sustain is very strong when he's attacking; he's very durable and tanky when he's free to cast his spells and heal from his Auto-Attacks and Qs. But if Trundle is locked down by a stun or something, he can be focused down pretty quickly. So you have to keep in mind that when you play him, you're probably not going to look to try to dive the back line of a Cait/Morg/Lux/Ryze/J4 team.

3) No area of effect damage (slow wave clear)

Trundle is a single-target champion, and while he can grind one target into the dirt, he doesn't have any area of effect damage. That means in team fights, he needs to focus down one opponent quickly, and certain situations can make that difficult. Also, his clearing of a big wave of monsters can be painfully slow whereas a Xin Xhao can clear it with one "E".

4) Kite-able (Sometimes difficult to get close)

This is related to point two, but is still very important. Trundle has his speed-boosting spells like Ghost and W, but if your opponent lands stuns or slows, it's sometimes difficult to get close to the target you want to hit. While Trundle is great at 1v1 melee combat, if he's kited and can't attack, he will ultimately fall. The combination of being weak to CCs and Kiting are Trundle's major pitfalls. Your best bet is to limit the times that you're trying to chase when there is another target to hit -- in other words, if you're stuck attacking a melee opponent, sometimes that's as good as it gets. Trundle should often just attack whatever champion is closest to him.

5) No cliff jump (Cannot catch up to Nidalee, Fizz, and others)

I'm a huge advocate of Ghost/Smite as opposed to Flash/Smite, but the one unfortunate thing is Trundle has no cliff jump. So you won't be able to get over cliffs either to catch up with a fleeing enemy or to escape from a dire situation. Solution? Don't get into dire situations where you may need Flash


Jungle Clear Paths:

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There are many ways to open, so I'm going to give a few viable options. The first two are 3-camp clears designed to secure buffs and gank by level 3 (~3:15 in game time). These clears set you up to pressure top early, which is why they are my personal recommendation. But there are other options.

The last two are more economical full-clears, where you can farm faster at the expense of not helping your lanes early. It's a stylistic preference, really, and might depend on which Jungler you're facing (don't try a full clear against aggressive Jungles like Lee Sin and Kha'Zix, because they might steal your second buff).

Blue Start (Lvl 3 Gank):

Blue (Smite to Kill) --> Wolves --> Red (Smite to Kill)--> Gank (Top or Mid) 2-3 potions

Red Start (Lvl 3 Gank):

Red (Smite to Kill) --> Wolves --> Blue (Smite to Kill) --> Gank (Top or Mid) 2-3 potions

Full Clear Blue Start (Lvl 4 Gank or Pure-Farm):

Blue (Smite-Start) --> Big Wraith --> Wolves (Smite) --> Wraiths --> Red (Smite to Kill) --> Golems --> Gank (Mid or Bot) or Pure-Farm

Full Clear Red Start (Lvl 4 Gank or Pure-Farm):

Red (Smite to Kill) --> Wolves --> Blue (Smite to Kill) --> Big Wraith --> Wolves --> Golem --> Wraiths --> Gank (Mid or Bot) or Pure-Farm


Shopping Benchmarks:

+ Show Spoiler +
Click Here to watch a clip of the ideal first three backs: 1500g, then 1600g, then 2400g

Ideal First Back: 1500g (Wriggles Lantern)
Ideal Second Back: 1600g (Mobility Boots / Vampire Scepter)
Ideal Third Back: 2400g (Blade of the Ruined King)

^ This is the ideal sequence that I use in my games. The first back with Wriggles lets you farm more efficiently; the second back with Mobility Boots and Vampire Scepter helps with farm efficiency and ganks (also lets you solo dragon); and the third back for BOTRK sets you up with a very strong mid-game.

There are a few other shopping benchmarks you can have in your head for when you're decided whether to back early on.

Ideally, you want to reach 1500 Gold or more. That will let you buy Wriggles, and anything over 1500 can be used on wards and potions.

If you can't reach 1500, try for 1250. That will let you buy Madred's Razor (which is the most helpful part of Wriggles) and Mobility boots. These two items will allow you to quickly farm that additional 1050 for Wriggles, either by ganking or efficiently farming the Jungle.

Click Here to view a clip of a game where things go wrong, but still farm 1250 before backing.

If you can't reach 1250, something like 775 seems reasonable. This would let you buy regular boots and Madreds. This is sub-optimal, but it'll happen -- just remember to rush for Wriggles and Mobility Boots ASAP.

If you die early and can only get 450, buy the Madred's Razor. If you can't afford even Madred's, shake off the back luck, buy boots and a potion, and hit the Jungle.


Item Progression -- Breaker Trundle:

+ Show Spoiler +
Sample Game: Trundle Jungle Item Build (Feral / Mobility Boots / BOTRK / Visage / Randuins)

Preferred Stat Summary:

Early Game: Attack Damage, Attack Speed, Life Steal, Movement Speed
Mid Game: Health Points
Late Game: Resistances

First Slot: Jungle Item (Wriggle's / Feral Flare)

In my experience, there are only two effective ways to play Trundle in the Jungle in the current meta/item pool. Either you play as a tanky-bruiser or a full-tank. I highly prefer the tanky-bruiser (which gets Feral Flare) as opposed to the full-tank (which gets Ancient Golem). Before patch 4.7, I wouldn't have even wrote up the tankier version because the Feral Flare/Bruiser style was undeniably stronger. However, with the new patch and nerf to Feral Flare, it seems tanky may be the way to go.

Since Trundle sustains so well in the Jungle, you can often farm 1500 to buy Wriggle's Lantern on your first back. Wriggle's is an excellent first choice on Trundle. The extra damage and attack speed are useful for ganks, and the item gives an enormous boost to Jungling efficiency. Not only do you do crazy damage in the Jungle, but you sustain even more (Wriggles stacks with Trundle's W spell), and gain 30% more Gold too. As an added bonus, Wriggles upgrades to Feral Flare after you get 30 Large Monster Kills, and don't even get me started on Feral Flare Trundle.

Feral Flare used to synergize incredibly well with Trundle's abilities and other items, particularly because it returned additional health on each attack (which stacked as you kill more monsters, are you kidding me right now?!). That meant that Feral Flare not only got stronger throughout the game, but it stacked with Trundle's W spell (and with Spirit Visage too). Combine these with a few other sustain items like BOTRK, and you don't even want to know how much HP Trundle returned on each attack. Unfortunately, the nerf to Feral Flare removed the item's heal-return stacking, but it's still not a bad item.

Second Slot: Boots (Mobility or Tabi or Mercury)

Early movement speed is really important for ganks and for jungling efficiency, which is why mobility boots are a natural next step after Wriggles. Some players may prefer naked boots to save money and buy BOTRK earlier, and some players may even prefer Tabi/Mercury for early resistances. Best bet is Mobility, in my humble opinion.

Third Slot: Damage Item (Blade of the Ruined King)

There are plenty of discussions that I'd be willing to have about Trundle, but nothing in this world could convince me that you should not rush Blade of the Ruined King. It is absolutely a necessary item; you simply cannot justify replacing it with another item. The bonus stats (Life Steal, Attack Speed, Attack Damage) alone make it very useful, and the passive and active bonuses really make Trundle shine.

The BOTRK passive deals 5% of target's current health with each attack. This is a passive that scales with Attack Speed, and Trundle's hands are notoriously fast. The result? A ton of bonus damage.

The BOTRK Active instantly deals 15% of target's maximum health, and return it to Trundle. This stacks with Trundle's W and his next item (Spirit Visage). This spell also slows the target's movement speed by 30% for 3 seconds, which is useful when chasing or peeling. I call the BOTRK Active + Trundle's Ultimate the BOTRK Burst. More on that later.

There are VERY few scenarios where it is correct to choose a tanky item before BOTRK. I've heard some argue for something like a Sunfire first, and I can't disagree more. Trundle is all about sustain-tanking, and you need to be doing a good amount of damage with your autos/Qs to fully benefit from Life Steal. Stats like HP/Armor/MR are great, but you need to get damage first. Buy this item.

Fourth Slot: HP/Resist (Spirit Visage)

And buy this item too.

When you're sitting with only Wriggles, Boots, and BOTRK, you're basically a melee glass cannon. You can do a lot of damage and sustain well, but if you get locked down with a stun or something, you can be bursted and killed very quickly. You're also not ready to do much tower diving/tanking. So you want to build HP asap.

The Spirit Visage is another essential Trundle item. Once again, the bonus 400 HP comes just at the knick of time, and the extra CDR / MR / HP Regen help a lot. These things are great, but the thing that makes Spirit Visage a necessary item is the passive ability.

The SV Passive gives you 20% bonus healing from all sources. Let that sink in. No no -- don't go back and reread it, you read it right. All sources. What does Trundle's W give you when it's maxed out? Also, 20% bonus healing from all sources. Huh. So the question we're all frantically asking: Do they stack?

Yes. Frozen Domain (W) and the passive from Spirit Visage stack. I mean, cheese and crackers man, that's a lot of healing! So that means you're getting at least 40% bonus healing from: King's Tribute, Life Steal, Feral Flame, BOTRK Active, Subjucate, etc. Everytime you auto-attack, everytime you Q, everytime you Ultimate or use BOTRK, you're healing back a very significant amount of HP.

He might not have the pure HP that tanks like Rammus have, but no champion in the game can sustain HP like Trundle. Not even Mundo.

Buy the Visage after the BOTRK, even when your opponents are all AD.

Fifth Slot: HP/Resist (Randuin's Omen, Sunfire, Warmog's, Banshee, Thornmail, Guardian's Angel Etc.)

After the Spirit Visage, you'll be quite lacking in the armor department. Most games, you'll want an item with armor here. I'm of the opinion that Randuin's Omen is the best next item, because of the high Armor/HP stats as well as a useful Active spell (an AOE slow).

An argument could be made here for Sunfire, Warmog's, Thornmail, or some other armor item. I'm not going to spend too much time debating this, I think they're all good items, but I think Randuin's makes the largest contribution to stats and team fights.

Sixth Slot: Damage Item (Black Reaver or Yoomou's Ghostblade)

The last item pick is pretty open to preference, and it may depends a lot on what your team needs. Most games end before this item is even thought of, but in the longer games, I tend to get the Black Cleaver. Towards the end of the game, most of the champions you're attacking will have 100 or more armor, and I think that Black Cleaver packs the biggest punch in terms of Armor Penetration. Not only does it give +10 Armor Pen to all attacks, but it has another passive bonus as well.

The Black Cleaver Passive reduces the target's armor by 5% for 4 seconds (Stacks up to 5 times). Trundle, with his fast hands, can easy get up to 5 stacks on an opponent. So you can be reducing their armor by 25% with the Black Cleaver, and like 40% with Subjugate. You can turn basically any tank into mush for yourself and your ADC to grind into the dirt.

http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/4198007

But I also think that adapting to what your team needs could make the difference of a win or a loss. Like if your team has no tank, you might close your build with a Warmogs, a Guardian Angel, or a Thornmail. Like I said, it depends, but personally I like to club people in the face.


Item Progression -- Tanky Trundle:

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Some have asked for a tankier version of the Trundle, so here it is -- The Tanky Trundle Item Progression:

Ancient Golem --> Boots (Naked) --> BOTRK --> Boots Upgrade (Tabi) --> Spirit Visage --> Randuins --> Thornmail

This would be my recommendation for a tanky Trundle build, and there's a few reasons why I think this is best in most scenarios. First, the Ancient Golem/Tabi Boots/Botrk makes for a VERY potent mid-game Trundle. You have good base of HP/Armor/Tenacity/Life Steal/Attack Dmg/Speed. Then you're always going to get the combination of Spirit Visage with Randuins (the order is situational, though I tend to go with Visage first since Tabi gives you armor). As for the last tanky item, Thornmail will probably make the biggest difference against most teams. Remember that Trundle is a sustain-style tank, so he benefits more from resistances than HP (usually). That's why I would tend to close the build with a Thornmail as opposed to a Warmogs, but if the opponent's team had three AP, you may choose Warmogs or Banshee's Veil or Guardian Angel.


Recommended Runes/Masteries/Summoners:

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Ideal Rune Stats:

Attack Damage, Magic Resistance, and Armor are arguably the best bang for your buck. I prefer and recommend scaling runes, which trump the flat runes once you reach level 6-7.

Quints: Flat Attack Damage (+2.25)
Marks: Scaling Attack Damage (+2.43 at 18)
Seals: Scaling Armor (+3 at 18)
Glyths: Scaling Magic Resist: (+3 at 18)

(+6.8 AD, + 27 MR at 18, +27 Armor at 18, +22 AD at 18)

Alternative/Viable Rune Stats:

HP, Armor Penetration, CDR, Move Speed, Attack Speed

If you want to customize a little differently, these seem reasonable stats to go for.

Summoners:

You should run Ghost (get it??). Ghost and Smite are definitely the best bet, but if you have an attachment to Flash I won't argue with it.

Masteries:

I'm firmly of the belief that 21/9/0 is the best Trundle/Jungle Mastery Setup. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/46084174#masteries

This mastery build gives a good mix of defense, offense, and sustain -- all crucial for Trundle! A tankier 9/21/0 is probably viable, but I have little personal experience with it and therefore cannot recommend it.


Trundle Early-Game -- The Farmer:

+ Show Spoiler +
Here is a sample game with some heavy farming (Clip from "Shopping Benchmarks")

I call Trundle a farmer because his sustain makes it efficient for him to spend a good amount of time in the early stages farming the Jungle. There have been games where I have not left the Jungle until after 8 minutes -- there is no rule in LoL that says you have to gank every game. So when your lanes are all doing really well, don't feel obligated to make something from nothing -- just farm up.

Most games you'll do a quick 3camp clear to pressure top by 3:15. Ideally you'll get a kill or an assist, but if not, you pretty much go right back to farming. I don't think Trundle should be played with hyper-aggressive lane presence -- you usually shouldn't do more than 1-2 ganks before your first back. Often, I'm very happy to get one kill top then farm the full 1500 for Wriggles before my first back. Then I clear the buffs again, and move out to get kills and secure objectives. Trundle can pull off an early dragon (7-10 minutes) as long as bot is doing well. One of my favourite things to do is to go for an all-in gank bot at level 6-7 with Ghost/R/W/E/Q. This comes as early as 8:00-10:00 most games, and if it goes well, you can easily get dragon afterwards: This Game Features a bot gank / dragon kill at 10 min

Then it's back to the Jungle. With Wriggles, Trundle actually gains HP in the jungle. So if you lose half your HP in a fight bot, you don't have to back -- you can just keep farming to 1600. Basically, you want to pull a few ganks to put the fear in them and maybe secure an early objective (tower or dragon), but mostly you want to farm you first three items: Wriggles/Boots/BOTRK.


Trundle Mid-Game -- The BOTRK Burst:

+ Show Spoiler +
Trundle becomes a real dominant force in the mid game. At level 11, his scaling runes are stronger than flat ones, he has level 2 ultimate (Subjugate), and he has his treasured possession: The Blade of the Ruined King.

The combination of Subjugate and the BOTRK Active is called the BOTRK Burst. When cast on a single target, these two spells steal a total of 35-40% of your target's maximum HP. Combine that with an Auto and a Q, and Trundle's Burst is real.

Botrk Burst on Vlad at 20:00 Stream Time.
Botrk Burst on Nocturne at 20:07 Stream Time.

This is the stage of the game where you want to be working with your teammates to secure kills and objectives. You may have been the most passive Jungle Troll in existence up until now, but with the BOTRK and level 11, you're going to come out of the Jungle guns blazing. Remember Trundle is one of the fastest dragon- and tower-eaters in the game, so when you land a kill you should be punishing the opponent's team by either taking dragon or a tower. Or if three of them pop up to kill top, you should be pushing bot or mid relentlessly. Seriously, look for any opportunity to push with Trundle in the mid game.


Trundle Late-Game -- The Tanky Troll:

+ Show Spoiler +
Assuming you've followed the Rune/Mastery/Item recommendations, Trundle will be quite tanky by the late game but he will still pack a punch. I'm no expert on late game engagements and theory-craft, so I won't go outside of my comfort zone by telling you exactly how you should play it out. I think in general, Trundle is weak to CC and Slows and is strong when he is able to attack, so you're not really the guy that wants to run in and get focused down by their whole team.

You're a tank, you want to take hits, but you need to be attacking to get maximum use of your sustain. That's one of the reasons why I think Trundle should be played as a "peeler" in the later stages rather than an initiator. If the other team has a Jax or a Kha'zix that is looking to dive into your carries, that's probably a better target than the opponent's well-protected Cait. In a late-game team fight, use your Pillar, Q, Botrk, Randuins, etc. to keep their melee champions off of your ADC/Mid.


Feedback, Sharing, Videos, Coaching

+ Show Spoiler +
Feedback:

Thank you for reading! Because this is my first LoL guide, I'm eager for feedback -- positive or negative. I'd like to know the things I got right, and the things I got wrong. Whether you have comments about the format, structure, content, or style of the guide, I want to hear it. Please be constructive with your criticism, so that I can make meaningful changes before the next guide. Answering this poll can also help me:

Poll: How helpful did you find this guide?

1) Extremely helpful, many good points (2)
 
67%

5) Okay, but kind of irrelevant (1)
 
33%

2) Pretty helpful, a few good points (0)
 
0%

3) Not very helpful, not many good points (0)
 
0%

4) Counter-productive, all bad points (0)
 
0%

3 total votes

Your vote: How helpful did you find this guide?

(Vote): 1) Extremely helpful, many good points
(Vote): 2) Pretty helpful, a few good points
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(Vote): 4) Counter-productive, all bad points
(Vote): 5) Okay, but kind of irrelevant



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If you enjoyed the guide or learned something, please help share it! I'm not sure of all the proper channels for sharing content in League of Legends, and your help would be appreciated.

More Stream Videos:

My stream page is www.Twitch.TV/TangSC. I hope you enjoyed the videos that I put together for this guide. I streamed hours and hours of ranked games to get these clips, so if you're interested in watching more...

Here is my past videos page.

Here is my highlights page (tutorials, quick tips/clips, etc.)

I plan to continue streaming ladder sessions as I climb towards diamond.

Coaching:

Unfortunately, coaching isn't as accessible in League of Legends as it is in StarCraft II. But if you have a way to save your replays (either via LoLReplays or Stream), I'd be more than willing to help you 1 on 1. As much as I enjoy helping out, of course I would have to charge a fee. I'm a very busy university student, I do my own laundry and dishes, but if you are interested here is my contact info.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
May 09 2014 23:09 GMT
#2
I don't know shit about Trundle, but this seems like a detailed and well organized guide. Iz gud.

Could use some pretty pictures though.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
May 09 2014 23:34 GMT
#3
Hey I am also plat 5. Wanna duo?
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
May 09 2014 23:37 GMT
#4
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-13 13:43:37
May 09 2014 23:50 GMT
#5
On May 10 2014 08:37 Sufficiency wrote:
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.

That's with smith-first on the Blue, same as other Junglers I think. His clear speed is pretty slow because of the single-target (lack of aoe). He does the Buffs + Wolves in 3min.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
May 09 2014 23:57 GMT
#6
On May 10 2014 08:50 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2014 08:37 Sufficiency wrote:
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.

That's with smith-first on the Blue, same as other Junglers I think. His clear speed is pretty standard.


I usually blue (smite) wright wolves wraith (smite immediately) double golem red (smite). I feel this increases the gap between your red and blue duration, and in a way gived you better timeframe for ganking.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-10 14:28:50
May 10 2014 14:28 GMT
#7
On May 10 2014 08:57 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2014 08:50 TangSC wrote:
On May 10 2014 08:37 Sufficiency wrote:
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.

That's with smith-first on the Blue, same as other Junglers I think. His clear speed is pretty standard.


I usually blue (smite) wright wolves wraith (smite immediately) double golem red (smite). I feel this increases the gap between your red and blue duration, and in a way gived you better timeframe for ganking.

I'm not familiar with that path though it seems to line up, I'd be a little worried about taking Red so late personally. I used to always do a full clear, but as players started stealing the Red I switched to the 3-camp clear with early pressure top. Trundle tends to run out of mana without Blue, so I don't know if the later Red would be that useful for ganks since you definitely need the full 150-180 mana to do QQWE.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-10 15:40:43
May 10 2014 15:39 GMT
#8
On May 10 2014 23:28 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2014 08:57 Sufficiency wrote:
On May 10 2014 08:50 TangSC wrote:
On May 10 2014 08:37 Sufficiency wrote:
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.

That's with smith-first on the Blue, same as other Junglers I think. His clear speed is pretty standard.


I usually blue (smite) wright wolves wraith (smite immediately) double golem red (smite). I feel this increases the gap between your red and blue duration, and in a way gived you better timeframe for ganking.

I'm not familiar with that path though it seems to line up, I'd be a little worried about taking Red so late personally. I used to always do a full clear, but as players started stealing the Red I switched to the 3-camp clear with early pressure top. Trundle tends to run out of mana without Blue, so I don't know if the later Red would be that useful for ganks since you definitely need the full 150-180 mana to do QQWE.


So first of all, if you think you may get invaded, you shouldn't be doing a red this late (e.g. vs Shaco, Xin, Udyr, etc.). But if you are against a FF jungler or something like Amumu/Pig/Pony, you will be really safe because they won't fight you at your red.

Another scenario which you will be safe is when the opposing jungler starts red. Then there is almost 0% chance they'll get to your red before your third smite.

Like you said, Trundle takes a lot of mana, so when your blue is up you should devote 100% of your time clearing jungle. By shifting the time you get red to be later than your blue for ~2 minutes, you get bigger window for ganking. Of course your mileage may vary (because hey, it's Trundle jungle...), but your window for ganking will be a bit bigger.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-10 17:15:48
May 10 2014 16:58 GMT
#9
I'd like to point out, for the edification of this conversation, that wight is not spelled wright.

Also, Sufficiency, your jungle clear suggestion is awful. I'd explain why, but there are lots of reasons not to delay buffs that long and somebody who is more of a jungle main should be giving that lecture I think.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 10 2014 19:04 GMT
#10
On May 11 2014 01:58 Ketara wrote:
I'd like to point out, for the edification of this conversation, that wight is not spelled wright.

Also, Sufficiency, your jungle clear suggestion is awful. I'd explain why, but there are lots of reasons not to delay buffs that long and somebody who is more of a jungle main should be giving that lecture I think.

I just call it the big wraith lol.

I'm of the opinion that the more standard 3-camp clear into pressure top is the best option.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
The_Unseen
Profile Joined March 2011
France1923 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-10 20:28:59
May 10 2014 20:24 GMT
#11
Oh god Tang switched to LoL

I have to admit man, your (2) Unshakable Confidence is an absolutely great read and every jungler should read it, you basically put into words everything I was confusingly feeling, great job
I got five reasons for you to shut up
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-11 00:50:01
May 10 2014 23:57 GMT
#12
On May 10 2014 08:57 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2014 08:50 TangSC wrote:
On May 10 2014 08:37 Sufficiency wrote:
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.

That's with smith-first on the Blue, same as other Junglers I think. His clear speed is pretty standard.


I usually blue (smite) wright wolves wraith (smite immediately) double golem red (smite). I feel this increases the gap between your red and blue duration, and in a way gived you better timeframe for ganking.

Why would you want increased timeframe between red and blue
It's really obvious where you are after you give a blue buff to your middle laner, which on Trundle you will want to do like 82% of the time (it's pretty obvious even if you don't), so it's not like you are very likely to get any ganks off then, as it's a really obvious time to gank too because you probably got lvl6 like 30s before
I don't see why you would want to have the buff itself from lvls 4-5 instead 3-4 either. It's not like Trundle's ganks get any better at lvl5; they just go from "meh" to "meh", a difference of about 1 comment of Iceland's president about the Crimean occupation. Your path doesn't actually even give you more exp or gold at any point (just tested it)

You shouldn't reccomend scaling AD reds, they are bad. For a jungler, a flat offensive rune = more exp and gold, which always more than compensates for the scaling one later on.

On May 10 2014 08:50 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2014 08:37 Sufficiency wrote:
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.

That's with smith-first on the Blue, same as other Junglers I think. His clear speed is pretty standard.

Nope, his clear speed is outright terrible. Using the standard clear (and superior runes; flat AD reds and CDR blues), which would be blue-wolves-red-golems-wraiths-wolves for level4, he is slower than Elise, one of the slowest commonly played junglers, by whopping 11 seconds. That's 25+ seconds slower than the fastest junglers around (Eve, Kayle). His clear speed doesn't get more acceptable with time either, given his lack of AoE and walljumps.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-11 13:33:17
May 11 2014 13:30 GMT
#13
On May 11 2014 08:57 Scip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2014 08:57 Sufficiency wrote:
On May 10 2014 08:50 TangSC wrote:
On May 10 2014 08:37 Sufficiency wrote:
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.

That's with smith-first on the Blue, same as other Junglers I think. His clear speed is pretty standard.


I usually blue (smite) wright wolves wraith (smite immediately) double golem red (smite). I feel this increases the gap between your red and blue duration, and in a way gived you better timeframe for ganking.

Why would you want increased timeframe between red and blue
It's really obvious where you are after you give a blue buff to your middle laner, which on Trundle you will want to do like 82% of the time (it's pretty obvious even if you don't), so it's not like you are very likely to get any ganks off then, as it's a really obvious time to gank too because you probably got lvl6 like 30s before
I don't see why you would want to have the buff itself from lvls 4-5 instead 3-4 either. It's not like Trundle's ganks get any better at lvl5; they just go from "meh" to "meh", a difference of about 1 comment of Iceland's president about the Crimean occupation. Your path doesn't actually even give you more exp or gold at any point (just tested it)

You shouldn't reccomend scaling AD reds, they are bad. For a jungler, a flat offensive rune = more exp and gold, which always more than compensates for the scaling one later on.

Show nested quote +
On May 10 2014 08:50 TangSC wrote:
On May 10 2014 08:37 Sufficiency wrote:
I am surprised that Trundle can Smite wolves after blue/wright. My experience with most junglers is that I can do blue wright wolves then smitr wraith. I guess his clear speed is indeed to be desired.

That's with smith-first on the Blue, same as other Junglers I think. His clear speed is pretty standard.

Nope, his clear speed is outright terrible. Using the standard clear (and superior runes; flat AD reds and CDR blues), which would be blue-wolves-red-golems-wraiths-wolves for level4, he is slower than Elise, one of the slowest commonly played junglers, by whopping 11 seconds. That's 25+ seconds slower than the fastest junglers around (Eve, Kayle). His clear speed doesn't get more acceptable with time either, given his lack of AoE and walljumps.

In terms of the scaling AD Runes, I think you're probably right -- the consensus in the community seems to be that flat AD is better for early ganks/clears (I've never seen a pro use scaling AD). But I go against this mentality when I play Trundle because I want to scale to be as strong as possible in the mid-late game phase. Because by level 4 you're at +.52, with flat you're .95, so yeah in the early stages you take a small cut to your AD but is the difference as significant as 13-14~ more damage in the mid-late game? By level 6-7 they even out, and really with Trundle it's level 11~ with BOTRK where you become a monster. I think both flat ad and scaling ad are viable on Trundle, but I'm definitely open to more theory crafting on this.

In terms of clear speeds, I'm not sure if he's that much slower. The reason I say that is I don't think the majority of people who play Trundle use the Q/W spells to maximum benefit. I'd have to test something like Eve vs Trundle, I'm sure Eve is MUCH faster, but to be 25+ seconds slower in a 5-camp clear doesn't sound right to me. Also, faster Junglers like Eve have some weaknesses too, she certainly can't sustain in the Jungle until 1500-1700g.

The lack of AOE/Cliff jump are pretty annoying I'll admit. Trundle can mash a single target, but it's true you have to single-target pretty much everything you ever kill lol. Also, you can forget about ever killing a Nidalee.
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Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-11 15:08:06
May 11 2014 14:56 GMT
#14
If you aren't sure he is that much slower you might want to run tests to confirm instead of just proclaiming your uncertainty.

The runes you reccomend are actually even worse than I thought, because attack speed reds+quids are significantly better on Trundle than flat AD is (5-6s difference in first clear, pretty damn significant).
Scaling AD is obviously out of the question. You could say they break even at lvl7, but that's clearly not true; if you get faster lvl3-6 and more gold for mana pots with your flat AD marks (which you will), the farm speed difference will be bigger than just the difference in AD your marks give you. That's not even actually taking into account that both of those are inferior to attack speed marks+quints by a significant margin lol.

This is the test I ran with Trundle:
atk spe marks+quints, flat armor yellows, flat cdr blues
following masteries+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

jungle path blue-wolves-red-golems-wraiths-wolves
skill order: QWQ
time to kill the last wolf: 3:53

For interest, this is the Elise test I ran:
hybrid pen marks, flat AP blues+quints, flat armor yellows
following masteries + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

same jungle path
skill order: WQE
time to kill last wolf: 3:47 (time difference isn't the 11 seconds I mentioned above; that difference is when you use the inferior flat AD runes. Same for Eve comparison; Eve finishes at 3:30, so the difference with optimal runes is 23-ish seconds.)

Though the difference is smaller now, as I said before; levels and gold don't make trundle's clear better, not compared to any other jungler, except for ancient golem ones for obvious reasons (which aren't really played anymore, except for elise; again, for obvious reasons).

It's a 6-camp clear, not 5-camp clear to be precise. Again, if it doesn't sound right to you, you might want to run the tests yourself. Too lazy to screen the Eve setup, it isn't that relevant anyway, but if you are interested runes are flat AD reds and quints, flat AP blues, flat armor yellows, masteries 21/9/0 taking both flat AD and flat AP in offense.

Yes, faster junglers might have other weaknesses, I never claimed otherwise. But the claim that Trundle's clear is about average is just absolutely untrue. I'm not here to prove whether Trundle is a good jungler or not, just making sure wrong things don't get said here without refutation.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 11 2014 16:15 GMT
#15
On May 11 2014 23:56 Scip wrote:
If you aren't sure he is that much slower you might want to run tests to confirm instead of just proclaiming your uncertainty.

The runes you reccomend are actually even worse than I thought, because attack speed reds+quids are significantly better on Trundle than flat AD is (5-6s difference in first clear, pretty damn significant).
Scaling AD is obviously out of the question. You could say they break even at lvl7, but that's clearly not true; if you get faster lvl3-6 and more gold for mana pots with your flat AD marks (which you will), the farm speed difference will be bigger than just the difference in AD your marks give you. That's not even actually taking into account that both of those are inferior to attack speed marks+quints by a significant margin lol.

This is the test I ran with Trundle:
atk spe marks+quints, flat armor yellows, flat cdr blues
following masteries+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

jungle path blue-wolves-red-golems-wraiths-wolves
skill order: QWQ
time to kill the last wolf: 3:53

For interest, this is the Elise test I ran:
hybrid pen marks, flat AP blues+quints, flat armor yellows
following masteries + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

same jungle path
skill order: WQE
time to kill last wolf: 3:47 (time difference isn't the 11 seconds I mentioned above; that difference is when you use the inferior flat AD runes. Same for Eve comparison; Eve finishes at 3:30, so the difference with optimal runes is 23-ish seconds.)

Though the difference is smaller now, as I said before; levels and gold don't make trundle's clear better, not compared to any other jungler, except for ancient golem ones for obvious reasons (which aren't really played anymore, except for elise; again, for obvious reasons).

It's a 6-camp clear, not 5-camp clear to be precise. Again, if it doesn't sound right to you, you might want to run the tests yourself. Too lazy to screen the Eve setup, it isn't that relevant anyway, but if you are interested runes are flat AD reds and quints, flat AP blues, flat armor yellows, masteries 21/9/0 taking both flat AD and flat AP in offense.

Yes, faster junglers might have other weaknesses, I never claimed otherwise. But the claim that Trundle's clear is about average is just absolutely untrue. I'm not here to prove whether Trundle is a good jungler or not, just making sure wrong things don't get said here without refutation.

Well the choice is between scaling/flat AD in my opinion. Attack speed isn't as desirable on Trundle, since his W spell eventually gives 80% increased attack speed. Also Attack Speed doesn't contribute to Trundle's Q, which is the biggest damage spell boost throughout the game. It may speed up clear time to run AS, but with the way I recommend playing Trundle (3-Camp clear into gank top, then back to farming), it shouldn't actually matter that much to clear 6-camp faster because ultimately you back at around the same time with the same amount of gold (6:45-7:30 with 1500).

So a clear would look something like: Red --> Wolves --> Blue --> Top (Even if only to put a ward and make sure your top isn't ganked) --> Wight/Big Wraith --> Wolves -- Small Wraiths

With this clear, the flat runes may make you reach top a bit earlier, and it may slightly speed up the clear times in jungle level 4-7, but to say scaling AD isn't an option seems a bit strong. Like I've been on the fence about scaling vs flat AD for a while, and I still lean towards scaling. (22 @ 18 as opposed to 8.5 flat).

I'll try out the 6-Camp clear starting with Red when I have time (with full scaling offensive marks as opposed to flat). I think that running full flat and doing a level 4 clear --> Gank could be just as viable as what I'm currently doing.
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Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-11 16:29:41
May 11 2014 16:25 GMT
#16
Scip your masteries are a joke.

Learn to math please!

Also Tang, the point of clearing faster is that clearing faster gives you a faster gold gain, which allows you to buy items faster. It is both better in the short term and better in the long term because of this. It is only potentially worse at 6 items, and junglers don't get to 6 items in realistic games.

You might say 10 seconds isn't a big difference but 10 seconds off every clear is 10 seconds you can be warding, ganking, counterganking, etc. That can literally change the entire outcome of a game by making you in time for a top lane countergank where you wouldn't be in time otherwise, allowing your laner to snowball, etc.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 11 2014 16:47 GMT
#17
On May 11 2014 05:24 The_Unseen wrote:
Oh god Tang switched to LoL

I have to admit man, your (2) Unshakable Confidence is an absolutely great read and every jungler should read it, you basically put into words everything I was confusingly feeling, great job

Thanks man :D
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 11 2014 16:50 GMT
#18
On May 12 2014 01:25 Ketara wrote:
Also Tang, the point of clearing faster is that clearing faster gives you a faster gold gain, which allows you to buy items faster. It is both better in the short term and better in the long term because of this. It is only potentially worse at 6 items, and junglers don't get to 6 items in realistic games.

You might say 10 seconds isn't a big difference but 10 seconds off every clear is 10 seconds you can be warding, ganking, counterganking, etc. That can literally change the entire outcome of a game by making you in time for a top lane countergank where you wouldn't be in time otherwise, allowing your laner to snowball, etc.

Oh I agree 100%, 10 seconds can be huge, and faster clearing is crucial. That's why I'm still on the fence about scaling runes vs flat (AD). I've switched between the two, and even done hybrid lol. Right now, I'm using scaling with the logic that it doesn't effect my clear speed that much, and the damage kicks in right when I need it -- mid game fights and objectives.
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Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-11 18:03:53
May 11 2014 18:01 GMT
#19
The plan of "take 3 camps and then pressure top" isn't a solid one ever since trinkets were introduced into the game. It's not impossible that the enemy top laner is so silly that he doesn't put down his ward, but it's not something you can even call a "way of playing x". Just going top to ward it is a waste of time, since your top laner will have a ward of their own to put down at that time. Top not being warded at 4-5 minutes isn't an issue big enough to waste about 15 seconds and your early trinket over.

Attack speed contributes to Trundle's Q quite a lot, since that gives you +AD. Contributes a lot more early game, when it matters anyway, as is perfectly well shown by the jungle tests.

here's a bit of mathcraft, my math-fu isn't 100% so feel free to double check.
Trundle lvl13 with Feral Flare+BotRK (and no masteries to simplify; shouldn't affect much) with lvl5 W and Q and scaling AD reds+flat AD quints

91AD+12+25+33 from Feral+40+ from Q+21,96 from runes=222,96
0.67AS+(34.8% from levels+80% from W+30%+40%)=1,90816AS
222,96*1,90816=425,4433536 DPS (without Blade of the Ruined King passive !)

Trundle lvl13 with Feral Flare+BotRK (and no masteries to simplify; shouldn't affect much) with lvl5 W and Q and atk spe runes reds+quints

91AD+12+25+33 from Feral+40 from Q=201
0.67AS+(34.8% from levels+80% from W+30%+40%+29% from runes)=2,10246AS
201*2,10246=422,59446 DPS (without Blade of the Ruined King passive !)

So if my math is correct, you get 26,352 more damage on your Q, in exchange for probably slightly worse autoattack dmg (those DPS values are without BotRK passive) and very significantly worse jungle clear at early levels. Not confident in my arithmetic, so review please, but them scaling AD (and flat AD) runes of yours don't seem particularly impressive
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 11 2014 19:24 GMT
#20
On May 12 2014 03:01 Scip wrote:
The plan of "take 3 camps and then pressure top" isn't a solid one ever since trinkets were introduced into the game. It's not impossible that the enemy top laner is so silly that he doesn't put down his ward, but it's not something you can even call a "way of playing x". Just going top to ward it is a waste of time, since your top laner will have a ward of their own to put down at that time. Top not being warded at 4-5 minutes isn't an issue big enough to waste about 15 seconds and your early trinket over.

Attack speed contributes to Trundle's Q quite a lot, since that gives you +AD. Contributes a lot more early game, when it matters anyway, as is perfectly well shown by the jungle tests.

here's a bit of mathcraft, my math-fu isn't 100% so feel free to double check.
Trundle lvl13 with Feral Flare+BotRK (and no masteries to simplify; shouldn't affect much) with lvl5 W and Q and scaling AD reds+flat AD quints

91AD+12+25+33 from Feral+40+ from Q+21,96 from runes=222,96
0.67AS+(34.8% from levels+80% from W+30%+40%)=1,90816AS
222,96*1,90816=425,4433536 DPS (without Blade of the Ruined King passive !)

Trundle lvl13 with Feral Flare+BotRK (and no masteries to simplify; shouldn't affect much) with lvl5 W and Q and atk spe runes reds+quint

91AD+12+25+33 from Feral+40 from Q=201
0.67AS+(34.8% from levels+80% from W+30%+40%+29% from runes)=2,10246AS
201*2,10246=422,59446 DPS (without Blade of the Ruined King passive !)

So if my math is correct, you get 26,352 more damage on your Q, in exchange for probably slightly worse autoattack dmg (those DPS values are without BotRK passive) and very significantly worse jungle clear at early levels. Not confident in my arithmetic, so review please, but them scaling AD (and flat AD) runes of yours don't seem particularly impressive

The 3camp --> top is absolutely still a solid plan. Trinket wards don't guarantee an escape, and if the opponent's top leaves lane to ward, you or your top laner should see it (in which case you can opt either to go the long way around, to continue farming, or to gank mid).

I say this as someone who prefers to spend all his time in the Jungle when possible: there are tons of reasons why going top after 3 camps is viable even if you're a farm-centric Jungler. In particular, there's a good chance the other Jungler will do the same, and Trundle loves early 1v1 or 2v2. If you don't go top by 3:30, then you risk their Jungler influencing the top lane. And yeah you could just say "well your top laner should ward and not die", and that's true, but I have no control over how top lane's going to play. At best, it's a situational thing that depends on the game. If their top is pushing, I'm going to go top 100% of the time at 3:15~. If our top is pushing, I'm either going 1) to run to the tribush area and put down a ward in their Jungle or top river, or (2) just keep farming.

To go back to why I prefer AD over (Runes): When you're auto attacking with Trundle, you usually get 3 autos off before your Q. All of those auto attacks and the Q scale with AD. Attack speed only increases how many auto attacks you get off in between Q (and usually not enough to make the difference of you actually getting +1 auto). With proper use of W/Q, Trundle's attack speed is pretty fast, and the way his Q functions you can't just do a straight up equation and conclude that attack speed is better.

One last bit of reasoning why I think AD > AS. In a gank situation with Trundle, you're often only going to get ~2 hits on the target (Auto/Q). The more running time there is, the more your opponent is trying to escape, the more Qs you'll be using as opposed to auto-attacking.
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 11 2014 19:36 GMT
#21
Just to go back to clear times.

When Trundle goes Blue --> Wolves --> Red, he finishes Red at 3:00. Is that much slower than Eve or other "fast" clearers?
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
May 11 2014 19:43 GMT
#22
I agree with Scip, if you're going to use your marks and quints on offense, I wouldn't use flat or scaling AD. Attack speed quints are significantly better due to the bonus AD from his q, wriggles being applied more frequently, the animation of his q speeding up, etc. That being said, I usually use movement speed quints. I don't see why you're valuing damage done when attacking a moving target over clear speed.

I wouldn't be recommending mobility boots on Trundle. Especially given you recommend wriggles/BotRK as your first two items, and offensive masteries. I'm not clear on how you expect to survive against strong burst threats other than being cleanup.

I disagree with maxing W second, at least without thinking about it or putting extra points in pillar first. Pillar is one of the strongest slows in the game, but its cooldown is atrocious if you wait to max it last (23 seconds, but it goes down 3 per level). And it's slow isn't that strong at level one (20% vs 45% maxed). Frozen Domain is also 60 mana, and it's not like you're using it on cooldown in the jungle because you're going to run out of mana extremely fast if you do. From my perspective, if you're going to do that, you probably should be playing Warwick, because he does the whole attack speed/feral flare without much defense early thing better and you're essentially forgoing one of the strongest parts of Trundle's kit.

I feel like this guide with one very specific patch and playstyle and mind, and now that 4.5 is gone I really don't think it isn't that great. If people are really dumb and try to duel you 1v1 constantly as a melee, I guess it could work, but I'm not really seeing it. Going both wriggles and BotRK early seems so, so risky to me.

Other people also mentioned it, but l also going to disagree with his clear speed being "pretty standard." It's god awful and always will be, even if being able to get wriggles now helps him a lot. Kayle is clearing camps late game in like 3-4 seconds, and its not like early game is favorable to Trundle either (and that's when it matter most). There's no upside to Trundle's clear, you're always going to have to sit and auto for an obnoxiously long time.
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
May 11 2014 19:52 GMT
#23
On May 12 2014 04:36 TangSC wrote:
Just to go back to clear times.

When Trundle goes Blue --> Wolves --> Red, he finishes Red at 3:00. Is that much slower than Eve or other "fast" clearers?

yes, it's slower by about 15 seconds. Again, you can try that out yourself

more full response inc. in a few hours
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-11 20:15:07
May 11 2014 20:01 GMT
#24
On May 12 2014 04:43 zer0das wrote:
I agree with Scip, if you're going to use your marks and quints on offense, I wouldn't use flat or scaling AD. Attack speed quints are significantly better due to the bonus AD from his q, wriggles being applied more frequently, the animation of his q speeding up, etc. That being said, I usually use movement speed quints. I don't see why you're valuing damage done when attacking a moving target over clear speed.

I wouldn't be recommending mobility boots on Trundle. Especially given you recommend wriggles/BotRK as your first two items, and offensive masteries. I'm not clear on how you expect to survive against strong burst threats other than being cleanup.

I disagree with maxing W second, at least without thinking about it or putting extra points in pillar first. Pillar is one of the strongest slows in the game, but its cooldown is atrocious if you wait to max it last (23 seconds, but it goes down 3 per level). And it's slow isn't that strong at level one (20% vs 45% maxed). Frozen Domain is also 60 mana, and it's not like you're using it on cooldown in the jungle because you're going to run out of mana extremely fast if you do. From my perspective, if you're going to do that, you probably should be playing Warwick, because he does the whole attack speed/feral flare without much defense early thing better and you're essentially forgoing one of the strongest parts of Trundle's kit.

I feel like this guide with one very specific patch and playstyle and mind, and now that 4.5 is gone I really don't think it isn't that great. If people are really dumb and try to duel you 1v1 constantly as a melee, I guess it could work, but I'm not really seeing it. Going both wriggles and BotRK early seems so, so risky to me.

Other people also mentioned it, but l also going to disagree with his clear speed being "pretty standard." It's god awful and always will be, even if being able to get wriggles now helps him a lot. Kayle is clearing camps late game in like 3-4 seconds, and its not like early game is favorable to Trundle either (and that's when it matter most). There's no upside to Trundle's clear, you're always going to have to sit and auto for an obnoxiously long time.

Mobility boots were amazing when Feral Flare stacked/scaled better -- I still get it occasionally because I value the extra MS for ganks/farming, and can sell it for 560 then buy tabi for 1000. That being said, you can definitely go straight tabi or merc after BOTRK.

I feel your fear about being stuck with only BOTRK/Mobi/Feral Flare. Even though the R/W/Life steal help, it's true you're basically a melee glass cannon. It's one of the weaknesses of the style, for sure. I'm rushing like a mad man for some health Rubys after BOTRK. The tankier version of Golem into BOTRK into Tabi into Visage is definitely sturdier.

I highly disagree with upgrading E before W. There are very few situations where you're going to have an opportunity to get the second Pillar off in a gank situation. I think increasing the W's attack speed, move speed, and healing help in all possible scenarios (Jg/Gank/Teamfight/Objectives). One of the biggest advantages of Trundle in the middle stages is his ability to eat towers/dragons with Q/W.
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zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
May 11 2014 20:39 GMT
#25
I never said "never max w first." I said you should strongly consider getting more points in e first at the very least and think about the situation. It's not strictly about ganking situations, it's about judging what your team needs. IE, Trundle is generally king of poke comps because pillar is such a strong engage/disengage, it's not like you're going to be brawling as part of a poke comp very often, so w isn't as useful. Having a way to disengage every 11 seconds vs 23 seconds is huge. There was a time when pretty much the only reason people really picked Trundle was for his pillar.

Pillar is rarely going to come up a 2nd or 3rd time in a teamfight/gank situation if you build super squishy- I suppose that is true. I guess that's my criticism of guide- you have a "style" and you stick to it, even though I would argue a lot of this is suboptimal/geared toward one specific patch.
miicah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia2470 Posts
May 11 2014 23:33 GMT
#26
Not to add to the negativity in this thread but why would you pick Trundle jungle over Trundle top? I have been having a lot of success (even more so with the TP buffs) running Trundle top with Q->E max, the extra gold certainly gives you a greater impact on the game.
@miicah88
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
May 11 2014 23:42 GMT
#27
I feel like Trundles biggest advantage as a champion is his 1v1 duelling power.

Given that, I don't really understand why you'd run him in the jungle over Udyr, who is also a really strong duellist, but whose skillset seems more favorable to the jungle, while Trundles seems more favorable to laning.

Maybe I'm just nuts.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-11 23:50:22
May 11 2014 23:48 GMT
#28
On May 12 2014 04:24 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2014 03:01 Scip wrote:
The plan of "take 3 camps and then pressure top" isn't a solid one ever since trinkets were introduced into the game. It's not impossible that the enemy top laner is so silly that he doesn't put down his ward, but it's not something you can even call a "way of playing x". Just going top to ward it is a waste of time, since your top laner will have a ward of their own to put down at that time. Top not being warded at 4-5 minutes isn't an issue big enough to waste about 15 seconds and your early trinket over.

Attack speed contributes to Trundle's Q quite a lot, since that gives you +AD. Contributes a lot more early game, when it matters anyway, as is perfectly well shown by the jungle tests.

here's a bit of mathcraft, my math-fu isn't 100% so feel free to double check.
Trundle lvl13 with Feral Flare+BotRK (and no masteries to simplify; shouldn't affect much) with lvl5 W and Q and scaling AD reds+flat AD quints

91AD+12+25+33 from Feral+40+ from Q+21,96 from runes=222,96
0.67AS+(34.8% from levels+80% from W+30%+40%)=1,90816AS
222,96*1,90816=425,4433536 DPS (without Blade of the Ruined King passive !)

Trundle lvl13 with Feral Flare+BotRK (and no masteries to simplify; shouldn't affect much) with lvl5 W and Q and atk spe runes reds+quint

91AD+12+25+33 from Feral+40 from Q=201
0.67AS+(34.8% from levels+80% from W+30%+40%+29% from runes)=2,10246AS
201*2,10246=422,59446 DPS (without Blade of the Ruined King passive !)

So if my math is correct, you get 26,352 more damage on your Q, in exchange for probably slightly worse autoattack dmg (those DPS values are without BotRK passive) and very significantly worse jungle clear at early levels. Not confident in my arithmetic, so review please, but them scaling AD (and flat AD) runes of yours don't seem particularly impressive

The 3camp --> top is absolutely still a solid plan. Trinket wards don't guarantee an escape, and if the opponent's top leaves lane to ward, you or your top laner should see it (in which case you can opt either to go the long way around, to continue farming, or to gank mid).

I say this as someone who prefers to spend all his time in the Jungle when possible: there are tons of reasons why going top after 3 camps is viable even if you're a farm-centric Jungler. In particular, there's a good chance the other Jungler will do the same, and Trundle loves early 1v1 or 2v2. If you don't go top by 3:30, then you risk their Jungler influencing the top lane. And yeah you could just say "well your top laner should ward and not die", and that's true, but I have no control over how top lane's going to play. At best, it's a situational thing that depends on the game. If their top is pushing, I'm going to go top 100% of the time at 3:15~. If our top is pushing, I'm either going 1) to run to the tribush area and put down a ward in their Jungle or top river, or (2) just keep farming.

To go back to why I prefer AD over (Runes): When you're auto attacking with Trundle, you usually get 3 autos off before your Q. All of those auto attacks and the Q scale with AD. Attack speed only increases how many auto attacks you get off in between Q (and usually not enough to make the difference of you actually getting +1 auto). With proper use of W/Q, Trundle's attack speed is pretty fast, and the way his Q functions you can't just do a straight up equation and conclude that attack speed is better.

One last bit of reasoning why I think AD > AS. In a gank situation with Trundle, you're often only going to get ~2 hits on the target (Auto/Q). The more running time there is, the more your opponent is trying to escape, the more Qs you'll be using as opposed to auto-attacking.

The 3camp --> top gank is a solid plan if they didn't trinket, which happens extremely rarely. If they did, while not completely impossible for it to succeed it's just not worth the time to even try. Going around the long way loses you so much time that even if you force your opponent to flash and get him to half hp you can't really call it worth. Ganking middle is unlikely to succeed for the same reason, although there you also have the added "bonus" of possibly getting counterganked when the enemy middle laner runs into the river. If you're worried about your top laner getting ganked, tell him to place a ward and ping back when you see enemy on the minimap. Not something you should reccomend wasting 15+ seconds over. Yes, you might be good in 2v2s, but I think you'll find that your enemies aren't going to give them to you.

Why can't I just use an equation to show that atk spe works better? Yeah, sometimes you might have to wait 0.4s or so to use your Q in order to get autoattack reset, but I wish you good luck showing that that's going to happen more often if you go attack speed runes than AD ones LOL. It's not just the equation, the tests show that early game the attack speed clearly does work better in combination with Q early. Note that attack speed is a lot better as well before lvl13, because your W won't be maxed then. Attack speed makes your attack animation faster, which means that in some cases it will give you more or less dmg than expected when chasing, but overall it's pretty much a wash.

"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-11 23:55:16
May 11 2014 23:54 GMT
#29
To be fair Scip, pre diamond the lvl3 top gank will almost always get you a kill if the enemy jungler doesn't also go top.

Well, if you have a strong ganking jungler. Dunno about Trundle.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
May 12 2014 02:17 GMT
#30
Double buffs into top gank is perfectly fine, but obviously depends on the situation. Which jungler are you? Who's their top laner? Who's your top laner? Where's the wave? Has he warded? How aggressively is he playing? What are his runes/masteries/starting items? Which jungler do they have, where did he start, and how fast does he clear compared to you? Who wins the 2v2?
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
May 12 2014 02:30 GMT
#31
On May 12 2014 11:17 GolemMadness wrote:
Double buffs into top gank is perfectly fine, but obviously depends on the situation. Which jungler are you? Who's their top laner? Who's your top laner? Where's the wave? Has he warded? How aggressively is he playing? What are his runes/masteries/starting items? Which jungler do they have, where did he start, and how fast does he clear compared to you? Who wins the 2v2?

If you want to say something useful you might want to tell us in which of those scenarios it is a good idea to lvl3 top, in your opinion
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
May 12 2014 03:24 GMT
#32
On May 12 2014 11:30 Scip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2014 11:17 GolemMadness wrote:
Double buffs into top gank is perfectly fine, but obviously depends on the situation. Which jungler are you? Who's their top laner? Who's your top laner? Where's the wave? Has he warded? How aggressively is he playing? What are his runes/masteries/starting items? Which jungler do they have, where did he start, and how fast does he clear compared to you? Who wins the 2v2?

If you want to say something useful you might want to tell us in which of those scenarios it is a good idea to lvl3 top, in your opinion


How is that not useful? It's a combination of things. Those are some of the factors you should take into account. The ideal situation would be something like if the enemy top laner is pushing hard, playing aggressively, has no escapes, is squishy, your top laner has good CC and burst, you are a strong early ganker, they haven't warded and their jungler has a slow clear and is weak early or will be on the other side of the map. Obviously it's an unlikely scenario, but again, you need to consider those sorts of things before deciding if ganking top at level 3 is a good idea. You can't just say "Ganking top at level 3 is good/bad".
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Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
May 12 2014 08:03 GMT
#33
Your original post didn't say anything more than "it depends" which everyone knows and then listed a list of things it depends on which anyone can deduce, that is not useful in the slightest.

I never said lvl3 is bad, I said it's extremely unlikely to be good because almost everyone wards for it, in which case it's a waste of time/not worth trying.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
May 12 2014 09:01 GMT
#34
Giving variables to consider when making a decision is extremely useful advice. Most people clearly don't take most of that stuff into account. Incidentally, people neglect to ward for the level 3 gank all the time. What if they don't play top much? What if they're lower elo and don't know timings very well? What if they simply forgot?

The point is that making informed decisions and knowing why you're making them is how you improve. Simply saying, "It's probably warded, don't do it" clearly isn't ideal advice. Instead, "Look to see if they're warding or ask your top laner, then make your decision based on these variables" is more optimal.
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Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
May 12 2014 09:59 GMT
#35
On May 12 2014 04:24 TangSC wrote:
If their top is pushing, I'm going to go top 100% of the time at 3:15~. If our top is pushing, I'm either going 1) to run to the tribush area and put down a ward in their Jungle or top river, or (2) just keep farming.

this is the part I was responding to
so I guess you agree with me ?
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
May 12 2014 10:05 GMT
#36
I agree that level 3 ganking top 100% of the time just because the other team's pushing isn't a good idea.
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Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-12 12:09:52
May 12 2014 12:08 GMT
#37
you guys are just dick stick measuring at this point. how often level 3 ganks top works is a lot to do with skill level because the higher you get the more top laners expect it and junglers might be ready to counter gank

tangsc is smugly pointing out that he gets kills all the time with this tactic so it must be good and scip is smugly pointing out LOL IM PLAYING AT SUCH A HIGH LEVEL THAT COMMONER STUFF DOESNT WORK ANYMORE BROHAN
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-12 12:20:55
May 12 2014 12:19 GMT
#38
not worth, I've made my points
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
May 12 2014 13:46 GMT
#39
I've been thinking lately that given decent ward coverage, you should be smiting on your very first buff sooner. This started because I typically always invade red buff (since it is undefended 40% of the time), and realizing that if no one is there at 1:59 and all the laners are in lane, it's not likely that my opponent jungler did a 3-second blue clear and is TPing to red. This means that I can smite their red, then head to my blue and have smite ready just as I'm finishing it.
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 12 2014 15:07 GMT
#40
On May 12 2014 21:08 Slayer91 wrote:
you guys are just dick stick measuring at this point. how often level 3 ganks top works is a lot to do with skill level because the higher you get the more top laners expect it and junglers might be ready to counter gank

tangsc is smugly pointing out that he gets kills all the time with this tactic so it must be good and scip is smugly pointing out LOL IM PLAYING AT SUCH A HIGH LEVEL THAT COMMONER STUFF DOESNT WORK ANYMORE BROHAN

Well I hope I'm not being smug lol I think it's a fair discussion anyway. I just feel like if you can go in and influence the top lane early (get kill/assist, burn flash, do damage), then it's often worth the few seconds it takes away from farming. It has worked fairly well in my own games, and I've seen it in the Jungler streams that I occasionally tune into. What I'm saying is: Of course it's situational, but it's generally a good idea to go top after clearing buffs, and I'm personally convinced it should be a general recommendation for Junglers. But then, others disagree, so obviously it's not as simple as "Just go top".

There have been a few questions about "why Trundle/Jungle? Why not play Trundle top or Udyr jg?" Trundle top is awesome against most melee champs and I play it, it's just not what this guide is. I'm not saying people should stop playing Trundle top, but Jungle/Trundle is a different animal. I main Trundle/Jungle, it's my best champion/role by far, and I think there's a lot of hidden potential in it. What he lacks in straight-up clear time he makes up for in sustain (you don't have to back as often or as early). Also, Trundle really is an absolute monster in the midgame, ultimate is unique and very effective, his q/w give monstrous stats, he can get in and out of most engagements, and his E Spell (Pillar) has so many practical uses from saving allies to trapping enemies to landing assists. Finally, Trundle synergizes so well with his core items (Botrk/Visage/Randuins) -- throughout the course of a team fight, Trundle can sustain as much HP as a "pure" tank while dealing more damage.
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 12 2014 15:08 GMT
#41
On May 12 2014 22:46 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I've been thinking lately that given decent ward coverage, you should be smiting on your very first buff sooner. This started because I typically always invade red buff (since it is undefended 40% of the time), and realizing that if no one is there at 1:59 and all the laners are in lane, it's not likely that my opponent jungler did a 3-second blue clear and is TPing to red. This means that I can smite their red, then head to my blue and have smite ready just as I'm finishing it.

I'm of the same mentality, I like to smite-first when I can. One thing I occasionally do against slow junglers like amumu is smite-start Blue then rush to their red, steal it, and try to get first blood on their side of the Jungle. Works pretty well as long as you watch their bot/mid lanes and don't get trapped.
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