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On May 06 2013 15:48 Zariel wrote:
Before they gave her the buffs, I would of thought by making her invulnerable (similar to Fizz Playful/trickster) during vault would have solved her issue of being a bit underpowered compared to other ADCs.
Might go give her a try mid lane this week, I tend to find her more exp-hungry when compared to other ADCs
If they made her invulnerable while Eing she'd be 100% broken. Her E is already crazy good harass because of the range, passive proc, and the fact that your slow sets up easy Qs (and in botlane E slow sets up so much easy CC for your support). If she was invulnerable her E would be some of the best botlane harass in the game and that's not even mentioning how much outplaying you could do with an ADC that can invuln herself (people still QQ about Ezreal E and it doesn't mess up half the CC that invuln E would).
Also Varus, MF, Graves, and probably Corki/Ez scale with XP better than Quinn. You mostly use Q for the utility of the blind and Es slow doesn't increase plus the passive proc is mostly what you want. The only really good thing about solo laning is faster levels on W (after the buffs maxing this second is pretty ideal imo) and a fast 6 for ganks/all-ins. Other ADs that spam spells get a lot more out of levels than Quinn.
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Quinn gets damage per level on Harrier. And wants to be maxing both Q and W asap.
And that level 6 gank when bot lane is still level 4 is basically a guaranteed doublekill if it's set up right.
But I mean, a lot of chars like solo lane levels. Quinn likes the mid lane roaming potential. She can't really roam like that from top or bot.
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Just did my first ranked Quinn mid game:
+ Show Spoiler +
To be fair, Trundle was doing some serious work.
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So I've been playing a bunch of Quinn top/mid and I'm really enjoying her and generally doing very well in lane.
Wouldn't maxing E over W make sense though? (Still Q first)
The damage increase would make it even easier to snowball and/or deny the enemy laner if you're doing well, and E mana cost doesn't increase as you level it.
Apart from that, anyone have any practical experience with BT vs BotRK?
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Levels in E only give you an extra 30 damage in your burst combo.
In contrast, a level of W gives you an extra 5% aspd and 10 movespeed off your passive procs, 10% aspd as Valor, and critically drops 5 seconds off the active. That W active is so, so good for basically everything, I like to have it up as often as possible. It makes things like jungle invades or scouting for baron just perfectly safe, and in mid it's critical because you can use it in spots where it hits both lane bushes and the entrance to both wraith camps.
If you pop W in lane and see the enemy jungler at wraiths, it makes your entire team safer, and potentially gives top/bot the assurance they need to dive and get a kill. It's a big deal.
As top lane I could potentially see maxing E over W, if you're vs. a bruiser with a gapcloser and need to be bouncing off of him all the time. The cooldown reduction is going to be critical there and your W active is not giving you near as much map awareness in top lane.
As far as BT goes, I'm not sold on it. I doubt BT adds as much to your burst combo as the BotRK active does. I also doubt it adds as much to your autoattack damage as the BotRK passive does. And it's certainly not as smooth a build path as opening Bilgewater Cutlass. The cutlass active is just sooooo gooooooooood for those early ganks.
I could see opening BT in bot lane when you're playing purely for the late game and not building as much defense, but I wouldn't put Quinn bot over mid in the first place.
Just my opinion.
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Even in bot lane Botrk is really good because you can rush Cutlass not only for the sustain but also for the extra burst to help you win trades, gank assist, and set up plays. The amount of slow from E+Cutlass is silly on an ADC. Quinn's also really good at kiting in team fights and Botrk compliments that so I feel like it's probably your best choice no matter where you play her (even in top lane the slow from the active can probably save your life or help you get kills better than a BT).
You have decent AD ratios but not enough to really justify BT on her. Come late game I actually really like having Botrk on any ADC more than BT because the active is so strong and the extra AS is more useful, imo, than the extra AD you get from BT but sadly there are several ADCs who essentially demand BT as their first big item. I don't think Quinn is one of them.
And finally, as was mentioned, the build path for Botrk is just a lot better than the build path from BT where if you get forced back before you can afford a BF sword you just come back to lane with zero new items while your opponent will be adding either damage or resists. I could see BT being better if you're ahead but in an even lane, or especially if you're behind, I like Botrk better.
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bork is safer especially on a champion like quinn/mobobird
because of this, crit builds are relatively lackluster and you won't be doing the dps compared to orthodox carries
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I think his points make a lot of sense for bot lane, but not for mid lane. In mid lane you need max Q to clear and early lifesteal/burst from the cutlass to sustain the lane and gank.
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So, I spent a couple hours doing 6th item math for Quinn last night. I have fun doing pointless theorycrafting.
These were my results:
Note first of all that this is with my mid Quinn build, where your 5 items are CDR boots, BotRK, LW, Maw and Frozen Mallet.
What we're looking at is which of 3 items provides the biggest additional benefit: Infinity Edge, Black Cleaver or Youmuu's Ghostblade. I broke the calculations into two different sections. What gives more damage to her burst combo (R E Q BotRKactive R) and what gives her more autoattack DPS.
Note that for poke wars BC and GB are far better than IE. They both outdamage IE with Q, and give 10% CDR. I didn't do math on that because it's just super obvious.
The numbers below use a test target with 2000 HP and 100 armor, though I'll also explain how different HP and armor numbers change the damage. I didn't make a spreadsheet sadly, I tried to but I don't know how to use Excel real well.
Burst combo damage numbers
#1: Ghostblade - 1038.05 damage
#2: Black Cleaver - 1032.09 damage
#3: Infinity Edge - 929.49 damage
Notes:
We assume for the Black Cleaver that the target has 0 BC stacks when you begin to burst them, which is probably not a 100% accurate assessment. I'd say the Ghostblade and BC damages are basically equal.
As a targets armor goes up, BC and IE begin to overtake Ghostblade. BC's damage overtakes it right away, although we're talking about a difference of 2 or 3% till the target approaches like 300 armor. IE's damage does not equal BC/GB until the target has over 300 armor. Any other armor shred or AD bonuses on your team increase the armor cap at which IE will overtake BC/Ghostblade. If somebody else is applying BC stacks then Ghostblade is just blatantly doing the most damage.
More health on a target favors BC and Ghostblade, since it increases the BotRK damage which scales with armor pen and not AD, but the difference is fairly negligable.
Conclusions:
Ghostblade and Black Cleaver damage for burst is about equal, and both are better than Infinity Edge. If somebody else is applying BC stacks, Ghostblade is the clear winner.
Autoattack DPS damage numbers.
First number as Quinn, second as Valor. Italicized ghostblade is with the active on, the other is with it off.
#1: Ghostblade - 775.32 / 787.41
#2: Infinity Edge - 725.37 / 754.26
#3: Ghostblade - 678.50 / 689.49
#4: Black Cleaver - 675.55 / 678.51
Notes:
For autoattacks I'm assuming that the target always has 5 BC stacks on for the BC calculations, since with BotRK and Harrier you're applying 2-3 stacks per autoattack. So realize that for your first 3 attacks the BC damage is actually slightly lower than that.
I am NOT including the added damage from BotRK in that calculation because the damage is reduced for every successive hit and the math is hard. However, realize that since the BotRK damage scales with Arpen, it favors Ghostblade and BC over IE. We're talking a difference of about 10 damage per auto, though, and the difference gets smaller the more armor the target has.
I am averaging out the increased damage from crits there. Random crit spikes do occur.
As Quinn I am assuming a Harrier proc every 3 seconds, which might be a little optimistic.
Valor does get the full 6 seconds for the Ghostblade active since he's melee.
While the numbers are different, for damage to towers the hierarchy is identical. GB with active > IE > GB > BC.
As a targets armor increases, IE and BC start to outscale Ghostblade. IE damage equals Ghostblade with the active on at 200 armor and then begins to outscale it. BC damage basically never equals Ghostblade or IE for autoattacks.
As a targets health increases the BotRK passive damage increases, which favors BC and Ghostblade. Since targets with more than 100 armor also typically have more than 2000 health, I feel like this serves to increase how tanky a target has to be for IE autos to outdamage autos from Ghostblade with the active on.
Conclusions:
Against a squishy target, Ghostblade is best for AA damage, followed by Infinity Edge, followed by Black Cleaver. Once the Ghostblade active is down, Infinity Edge becomes better.
Against a real tanky target (300ish armor) Infinity Edge is best for AA damage, followed by Ghostblade, followed by Black Cleaver.
Other Considerations.
After looking at these numbers, it's important to look at the relative cost and utility of these items, as well as their build paths.
Infinity Edge costs 3800 gold, and provides essentially zero utility.
Black Cleaver costs 3000 gold. It gives 10% CDR, 200 health (528 gold value) and increases AD damage from other teammates.
Ghostblade costs 2700 gold. It gives 10% CDR, and the active also gives 20% movespeed.
For build paths, BC and Ghostblade allow you to put a Brutalizer in the slot while you get gold to finish the item, which is basically better in every way than IE, which forces you to sit on a BF sword. Brutalizer outdamages BF Sword with its arpen, provides more utility with the CDR and costs less.
Overall Conclusions:
This is what I get from all this, although feel free to tell me you think I'm a moron.
If your team has a lot of AD damage and nobody has built a BC, Black Cleaver is probably best, since it will apply the BC stacks for your AD teammates, and the extra 200 HP has nice gold efficiency.
If your team already has a Black Cleaver, Ghostblade is the clear winner. It does much more autoattack damage than BC and assuming somebody else is applying BC stacks does equal or more damage with skills as well.
Even though it does more autoattack damage to tanky targets, Infinity Edge is probably never the correct option. It costs much more than the other options, has a less friendly build path, no utility, and does less damage to squishies. The exception may be a game where that 400 armor Malphite or Rammus is just carrying hard and you have to take him out.
Let me know if anybody else has different conclusions.
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Wouldn't you want a more defensive option considering your inherent squishiness (especially as Valor) and the need to stay healthy so you can survive the fight and play clean-up? Or do you rely entirely on Mallet's HP (and Maw's shield against magic burst) for this?
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You basically just don't go in as Valor until the fight is more or less already over.
As you can see, the extra 40% attack speed as Valor barely outdamages the DPS you get from Harrier.
In teamfights you stay back, bounce off their divers, kill whoever is an opportune target, and then when the fight is decided and they're (hopefully) retreating, that's when you ult and go clean up. Essentially in big teamfights Valor is a tool to prevent enemy escapes rather than a damage increase.
And yeah, I feel like between Frozen Mallet, Maw, Barrier and lifesteal, you've got some defense. You're tankier than a typical ADC, that's for sure.
Further, I don't really like a lot of conventional defensive options on Quinn.
Sunfire seems a little awkward because she doesn't dive in at the start of the fight, so the sunfire damage isn't really maximized. She has no mpen or other magic damage.
Randuins is a little awkward because the attackspeed slow doesn't synergize with her blind. There's no point in slowing their attack speed if they're missing.
GA is a little awkward because I feel like GA is best on champions who can do things once they revive. It's great on Riven and Khazix and Zed because in all likelihood as soon as they revive they can use their skills to jump away or kill somebody else. If Quinn ults, dives in and dies, once she revives she has limited tools, she'll probably just die again.
Locket is probably the best option, if you want another tank item. And it's not a bad option, it's cheap and gives you CDR and a lot of defensive stats. If your team has a lot of damage already but is having issues initiating, I could see Locket as a 6th item and trying to start a fight that way. But realistically, Quinn is a terrible front line initiator, she excells at cleanup.
Atmas is another option, would give 40 AD, 45 armor and 15% crit. And it's cheapo.
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You should do the math with a BT as sixth item as well imo. Your build is basically an AD caster build yet it's lacking arguably the best AD caster item in the game (except for Muramana but Quinn has no need for Muramana lol). Also I would consider BT as a semi-defensive item because Botrk+BT is some ridiculous life steal.
If you get a bruta early on since it's so good mid game I could see going BC or GB even if BT resulted in more damage (I'm not saying that it does or anything). I think BT would've been better for your math anyways as IE wouldn't make sense to begin with in a zero crit build.
Quinn really likes AD and scales really well with it.
Max E sounds dumb in any lane as Quinn. E's damage sucks you're only using it to apply the passive. Q is pretty obviously the best skill to max first in every lane and W is pretty obviously the second best skill. When you level E the best thing you get out of it is a lower CD but I really can't think of any lane in bottom where the lower E CD would be better than the damage you get from Q/W. It's possible that E max might be good in certain lanes depending on your play style but I can't really think of a lane where I like E max.
edit:
Hrm, apparently I'm real dumb. Max E seems to be all the rage for top lane Quinn since you need to abuse the MS/AS boost as frequently as possible in top. Voyboy endorsed it at some point in that reddit thread and a few other high level Quinn tops do it too. They go R>E>W>Q.
I used to rush Botrk on Quinn but have played around with other shit lately. I don't know as much about mid and top Quinn as I play it more rarely than bot lane Quinn but I would agree that in most cases BT rush is usually stronger in bottom lane. I only go Botrk if I'm getting decimated in lane and won't be able to farm up a BF sword very quickly. Botrk is really strong in mid though because of the ganking potential and it's nice in top lane because of how much threat some top laners can put on you if you make a mistake. I could see BT being good as first item in both lanes though if you get an early lead.
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I didn't do the BT math because I was convinced that it was going to be worse than these other three options, but since it's requested, lets check it out. Assuming the BT is fully stacked.
Burst combo damage: 964.20
Autoattack DPS: 505.76 / 492.82
As you can see, while the burst combo damage is higher than it is for IE, it's less than either BC or Ghostblade, and the autoattack damage is much lower than any of them. Funnily, with a BT as 6th item Quinn actually does more damage autoattacking as Quinn than Valor.
The one saving grace on BT is that it actually does more DPS to towers than any of the others, even just beating out Ghostblade with the active on.
The reality is Quinn scales with armor pen better than she does with AD. Her AD ratios are quite low compared to other AD casters.
Quinns burst combo: 135-185% (235% if you count Harrier in the combo)
Pantheon: 500-570%
Khazix: 330-397%
Zed: 330% (also 25% bonus AD)
Lee Sin: 480%
Talon: 400%
Riven: 370-490%
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So I just bought Quinn and I'm finding her pretty fun, but I have no clue how to make her ult work. Could someone tell me how not-shitty it is? I don't see why I'd want to trade all my range for those piss poor bonuses. I mean, I use it as a catch->execute right now, but that's about it.
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That's what it's for, a catch execute.
It's also a really good split push tool, if you get in a bad spot you can run away real well.
With Harrier your AA DPS is very similar as Quinn to what it is as Valor even given the ASPD bonuses, and your skills are arguably worse because they lose range. Use it as a movespeed / execute / escape tool and nothing else.
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Yeah that formswitch has literally the worst 'bonuses' to the skills ever. What the fuck. And 0 bonus Armor/MR too.
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The bonus is that during the 20 seconds you can literally (not kidding) get from any point on the map to any other point on the map. Except maybe from one fountain to the other fountain. I should test this!
Use it like a TF ult.
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Assuming Quinn has rank 2 boots and no other movespeed bonuses, during Tag Team she can get from her fountain to:
With rank 1 - Enemy mid tier 1 turret
With rank 2 - To the edge of the jungle wall past the enemy mid tier 1 turret
With rank 3 - Nearly to the enemy mid tier 2 turret
With rank 3 and Homeguard lol - To the enemy mid tier 3 turret
That's like 2x/3x the distance of a TF or Panth ult.
During this test I also found out that if you have homeguard boots, are in the fountain, and sell them, you keep the homeguard bonus till you use that application of it up.
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What's your take on ionic spark for Quinn? I've been going botrk+ionic spark getting cutlass+avarice for lane (bot-lane) and then filling last items with situational stuff like IE, GA, LW. The crit matches well with her E for duels.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8gExB35.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/91OEr69.png)
