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[Champion] Quinn and Valor

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-19 14:52:39
May 02 2013 00:14 GMT
#1
Quinn and Valor, Demacia's Wings
[image loading]


Introduction
Hi guys. This is my second TL champion guide, the first being our adorable Lux guide. As a disclaimer, I actually have not played Quinn in ranked yet (gasp!), because right now I'm not playing much ranked, I have a consistent network problem that's preventing me from being 100% srsface.

However, we have no Quinn guide, and I have been practicing Quinn for over a month now, specifically in mid lane. I know a few pros have been trying this out (Misaya), and she recently got a huge heaping mouthful of buffs, so here's a guide if anybody wants to try her out. Just remember this is a bit of a work in progress.


Quinn pros / cons

Pros:
  • Very strong ganks.
  • Big AoE teamfight damage.
  • Good counterpick to melee AP mids.
  • Strong split pusher.
  • Doesn't necessarily need blue buff (though she likes it a lot)

Cons:
  • Relies on successful ganks to get ahead.
  • No real CC.
  • Long ult cooldown.
  • Hard countered in some lanes.
  • You gotta learn how to use her ult in teamfights and not immediately get killed.

Where, when and why to play Quinn
+ Show Spoiler +

I feel like this section needs to come first, because while I think Quinn is strong, the uniqueness of her kit in the current meta is going to make her always a niche pick in serious games.

Where?
First of all, I think playing her mid is the "correct" place to play her, for the following reasons.

#1 - The biggest advantage to her kit is her roaming capability. Her ult gives her response times similar to Twisted Fate, and mid lane allows her to roam the most.

#2 - She likes farm. She can clear wraiths pretty fast, and makes great use of blue buff.

#3 - Her W and her E give her a lot of safety in mid lane because it's so short, but aren't as good in side lanes.

#4 - She shuts down melee mids really, really hard, much like most AD mids.

The fact is her kit is just not suited for bot lane, and while she is a strong split pusher, she can split push just fine from mid, and doesn't need to be up in top lane. This guide is going to focus on mid Quinn.


When?
Quinn has ridiculously strong ganks. Her level 6 burst combo is very strong, and Tag Team lets her gank anywhere on the map. However, unlike Twisted Fate, she doesn't bring CC with her. She works best when your side lanes can start a fight and she can come clean it up. Lanes with champions like Leona or Thresh or Renekton etc mean fun times for Quinn.

Quinns matchups in mid can also be fairly sketchy. There are some champions she really shuts down (Katarina, Diana, Fizz), and others she has a lot of trouble against (Ryze, Orianna, Malzahar). She plays like a TF but can't push as hard as him, so a mid laner who sits in mid forever and is constantly pushing to the tower can be difficult for her to deal with.

Finally, she's an AD mid, and you want to be careful your team isn't all AD and fighting a Taric who's gonna armor aura their whole team, obviously.

Because of these three points, I feel like she's situationally a very good choice in some games, and not a good idea in others. Not like my Lux guide where I'm all "PLAY LUX AGAINST ANYTHING LOL" because you can play Lux against anything. Gotta be careful with Quinn.


Masteries
+ Show Spoiler +

I only use one mastery page on Quinn: http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#laUvSlqTvUasvEd

Obviously switch between MR and Armor in defense based on the enemy mid.

I don't get the crit masteries because realistically, you won't have any crit till your sixth item if at all. Most games you will never get any crit. Instead I take 2% attackspeed and the 5% tower damage, although the tower damage is preference. If you fall behind you become a split pusher and the extra tower damage becomes a big deal. You can also do 3% attackspeed. I feel like Quinn doesn't benefit too terribly much from attackspeed.


Runes
+ Show Spoiler +
These are my current runes for her, based on opponent.

Page 1: This page is for playing against a standard AP mid.
[image loading] Flat Armor Penetration
[image loading] HP per Level
[image loading] Flat MR
[image loading] Lifesteal

Page 2: This page is for playing against a standard AD mid.
[image loading] Flat Armor Penetration
[image loading] Flat Armor
[image loading] Flat CDR
[image loading] Lifesteal

Page 3: This page is for playing against somebody that does a lot of mixed damage like Kayle, or if you're playing against an AP mid with a strong early ganking AD jungler. Like say, Lissandra+Xin Zhao. Or if it's say Zed and Akali and you don't know which champ is going mid.
[image loading] Flat Armor Penetration
[image loading] Flat Armor
[image loading] Flat MR
[image loading] Lifesteal

Page 4: This page is specifically for playing against AP mids who are very easy to deal with pre 6, and harder to deal with post 6, such as Akali, Kassadin and Diana.
[image loading] Flat Armor Penetration
[image loading] HP per Level
[image loading] MR per Level
[image loading] Lifesteal


Summoners
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading] Flash:
Very self explanatory. Quinn is short ranged and needs this badly.

[image loading] Barrier:
This is very important for Quinn later in the game, because she dives in teamfights while not building very tanky. It's not so amazing earlier, but is an important part of her teamfight.

[image loading] Exhaust:
For a while I tried Exhaust Flash Quinn just to make her ganks even more ridiculous. You might give it a try, but after a dozen games or so I decided that Barrier is just necessary for her to not die later in the game.


Stats/Skills
+ Show Spoiler +

I'm not going to go too in depth with this section, you probably already know what Quinns skills do.

Her starting skill order is either EQQW or EQWQ. Typically I go EQQW, but if I'm far ahead and pushed up to the enemy tower when I hit level 3 I'll grab W and use it to scout for the enemy jungler.

Following that you're going to go R>Q>W>E for level priority.

Base Stats:+ Show Spoiler +

Health 390 (+85)
Health regen 4.5 (+0.55)
Mana 210 (+35)
Mana regen. 6.3 (+0.4)
Range 525
Attack damage 48 (+3)
Attack speed 0.668 (+3.11%)
Armor 13.5 (+3.5)
Magic res. 30 (+0)
Mov. speed 335


[image loading] Harrier:+ Show Spoiler +

Valor periodically marks a nearby enemy with Vulnerability for 4.5 seconds. If Quinn attacks a Vulnerable enemy, she deals 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 / 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 / 115 / 125 / 135 / 145 / 155 / 170 / 185 / 200 / 215 (+ 50% bonus AD) bonus physical damage. This cannot occur again for 10 seconds, or 3 seconds if Quinn triggers the vulnerability. Valor will first prioritize Quinn's most recent attack target. If Quinn has not attacked anyone recently, Valor will target nearby low health units (prioritizing champions over minions).

Harrier is disabled while Tag Team is active.

Basically, Valor marks stuff and you do bonus damage to that stuff. Manipulating Harrier takes some practice and getting good at it will make you a better Quinn player. However, Valor's coding seems to be weird/buggy/aggravating, and I'm still learning. This is what I've figured out.

1 - Valor will typically mark the last thing you shot at, if it's not dead yet. If you Q'd a group of stuff as your last attack, he will mark the lowest health thing your Q hit.

2 - If you haven't attacked anything since his last mark, Valor will prioritize enemy champions first, then go to minions. He'll go for the closest champion or the lowest health minion.

3 - His timer is about 4 seconds, but if you miss a mark it's longer than that (LoL wiki says 10 seconds but it's def. less than 10 seconds).

You CAN manipulate Harrier to make sure Valor marks the enemy champion. After you last hit a marked minion, start counting to 4. At about 2-3 seconds right click the enemy champion and make sure you're in about 700 range. It doesn't work 100% of the time but it will make Valor mark them over a minion a good deal of the time.

4 - Valor hates marking blue buff and it will piss you off.

[image loading] Blinding Assault:+ Show Spoiler +

Range: 1025
Cooldown: 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7
Cost: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 mana
Physical Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 65% bonus AD) (+50% AP)

Active: Quinn commands Valor to fly forwards in a line, stopping when he collides with an enemy. Valor then deals physical damage and blinds nearby enemies for 1.5 seconds.

As Valor, you do the same attack, but in melee range.

This is like your I use this for everything skill. It's poke, it's ranged burst, it's waveclear, it CC's enemy carries, it does all the things.

[image loading] Heightened Senses:+ Show Spoiler +

Range: 2100
Cooldown: 50 / 45 / 40 / 35 / 30
Cost: No cost

Passive buffs to Harrier:
Attack Speed: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40%
Movement Speed: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60

Persistant buff as Valor:
Attack Speed: 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80%

Active: All area within range is revealed for 2 seconds.

This skill is so ridiculously good. The active is a great scouting tool, between this and Q you never have to facecheck. You can also use it to get sight of blue buff / wraiths and jump over the wall to do them quickly, and it can let you jump on enemies running through bushes. Since this costs no mana you should be using it often.

Finally, the passive gives you huge steroids. Is so good.

[image loading] Vault:+ Show Spoiler +

Range: 750
Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8
Cost: 50 mana
Physical damage: 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 (+ 20% bonus AD)

Active: Quinn dashes to an enemy, briefly interrupting it, dealing physical damage and slowing the target's movement speed by 50%. This slow decays over 2 seconds.

Upon reaching the target, she leaps off and lands near her maximum attack range away from the target. Valor will immediately mark this target as Vulnerable.

Active - Tag Team: Valor dashes to an enemy, dealing the same physical damage and slowing the target's movement speed by 70%. This slow decays over 2 seconds.

This is an interesting skill because it's your main escape tool, but in lane it's also a very good champion harass tool. Quinns standard damage combo is to get Valor to mark the enemy laner, auto, E, auto again, then Q while they're slowed and can't dodge it.

Since the Harrier proc is doing most of this skills damage and that scales with levels, you don't need to be levelling this.

You can also use this to jump over the wraith/blue buff walls. For wraiths, use Heightened Senses while standing next to the wall, and jump to the wraith farthest away from you. You'll land in the middle of all 4 of them.

For blue buff, do the same, but jump from the part of the wall where it's thickest. Vault lands you slightly closer if you jump from far away, and this actually means from that same spot vaulting to blue buff lands you inside the wall, and then vaulting again from the same spot takes you outside the wall. Use the vision from the Harrier proc to get the last hit on the buff, and walk back to lane. Iz gr8.

Note that with the recent interrupt added to this, you don't have to be scared of vaulting on Udyrs or Rammus's etc. You stun them before they stun you and get away safely.

[image loading] Tag Team / Skystrike:+ Show Spoiler +

Cooldown: 140 / 110 / 80
Cost: 100 mana
Out of Combat Movement Speed: 80 / 90 / 100%
In Combat Movement Speed: 20 / 30 / 40%
Skystrike Range: 700
Skystrike Minimum physical damage: 120 / 170 / 220 (+ 50% bonus AD)
Skystrike Maximum Physical damage: 240 / 340 / 440 (+ 100% bonus AD)

Active: For 20 seconds, Valor replaces Quinn on the battlefield as a mobile melee attacker with alternate versions of Quinn's abilities. Valor can move through units and gains greatly increased movement speed that gradually decreases to a lower amount while in combat.

When you hit R again, Quinn returns to perform Skystrike, dealing physical damage to all enemies within range. The damage increases by 1% for every 1% of an enemy's missing health.

If Skystrike has not been cast during Tag Team, it will be cast automatically when Tag Team ends.


This ability makes Quinn what she is and making maximum use of it is important. Some points to note.

1 - From mid lane, Quinn can get anywhere on the map from level 6 with this. When you decide to gank use it the instant you think you're out of vision, don't wait.

2 - Skystrikes AoE is huge. It has a larger range than her autoattack range, so after using it you can always get one more auto in if you need that to finish someone.

3 - The cooldown actually starts when you cast Skystrike, so if you're not doing anything with your birdform, end it early. It'll be up again a few seconds earlier.

4 - The ASPD steroid you get as Valor is very good for killing turrets if you're split pushing.


Items
+ Show Spoiler +

What I've found with Quinn is that while she more or less goes towards the same items every game, the order she gets stuff in has to vary on the fly. I'm also not convinced my build is the best all around damage build for her, and I would love it if we could all discuss math on the subject. She's the only champion not listed in Ask Mr. Robot, for shame.

Opening:
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
Boots of Speed
2 Health Potions + Ward / 4 Potions (typically 3 HP 1 MP)

Alternatively vs. a very heavy AD team (Zed mid, AD jungler for example) I'll start Cloth Armor, 4 HP pots and 1 MP pot.

Early game core:
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
Bilgewater Cutlass
CDR boots
Buy 1-2 HP pots and wards every back.

Bilgewater Cutlass is big on her because it gives her all her necessary laning stats (AD and lifesteal), adds to her burst combo, and gives her that little bit of extra CC, since her ganks lack hard CC.

I buy the second Longsword my first back if I feel like I'm ahead in lane, and the Vamp Scepter first if I feel like I'm behind.

CDR boots are big to get early because you're playing Quinn for the ganks, and her ult has a 140 second cooldown. More CDR = more ganks = do a better job of winning another laners matchup = win game.

CDR boots also help more with her late game teamfight than ASPD boots I feel, which I'll discuss later in the guide.

Mid game core:
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
Bilgewater Cutlass
Homeguard CDR boots
Phage
Pickaxe
Don't buy as many HP pots now, maybe 1, but keep buying wards.

While Bilgewater Cutlass is great on Quinn, you don't need to finish the BotRK before late game because she's not so crazy on attackspeed. The Phage and Pickaxe do a better job of dealing damage and keeping her stuck to targets.

Homeguard boots are important, because Quinn is not a fantastic pusher, and needs to get back to her lane after ganking ASAP to protect the tower. Here's my thought process on homeguard. If it lets you clear one wave in mid that you would have otherwise missed, it's paid for itself. Maybe not strictly in terms of gold, but when you add the EXP you didn't miss and damage to the tower you prevented, it certainly has.

Late game core:
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
Blade of the Ruined King
Homeguard CDR boots
Last Whisper
Phage
Hexdrinker / Negatron Cloak
Keep buying those wards.

The MR is optional, but helps a lot in most games. Negatron if you're going to build a QSS. Other than that, pretty self explanatory.

Final build:
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
Blade of the Ruined King
Homeguard CDR boots
Last Whisper
Youmuu's Ghostblade / Black Cleaver
Frozen Mallet
Maw of Malmortius / Mercurial Scimitar

Ghostblade / BC will depend on whether or not somebody else in the team has a BC. Since Quinn gets a lot of sustained damage from the crit and Ghostblade active, if another teammate is applying BC stacks Ghostblade is the winner. Maw or QSS will depend on how much you're getting CC'd by the enemy team, I prefer Maw most of the time because you're not starting fights as Quinn, you're cleaning them up.

Alternate items for specific matchups:

VS an all or very heavy AD comp I switch the build to Armor boots instead of CDR boots, and a Locket instead of the Maw/QSS. This gives you armor and the Locket makes up for the lost CDR. Plus it's cheap and gives you an excuse to sit on a Kindlegem.

I tried Randuins for a while vs. heavy AD and decided I didn't like it. It's expensive, and attack speed slows don't synergize too well on Quinn because you blind them, so their autoattacks are slowed while they're also missing you. Prefer Locket.

If you're way behind early game you should rush a Hexdrinker to keep the enemy mid from killing you, but it's going to hurt your ganks a lot. Sometimes shit happens.

If you're real far ahead early game, and I'm talking like a doublekill before your first back, you can go for a fast Brutalizer + Bilgewater + rank 1 boots, and use that to get even farther ahead. But don't do this unless you're carrying like a boss right from the beginning of the game, if you aren't it's going to delay your Phage/BotRK a lot and you'll end up getting killed repeatedly in the mid game.

Finally, if you're super duper nothing else to do late game, you can sell your boots for a Zephyr like a real bonified AD Carry would.



Playstyle in a normal matchup
+ Show Spoiler +

Early game:
You're very strong at level 1 and level 2, and you want to abuse the fuck out of it. Beat on the enemy laner as much as you can, because unless you're in control of the lane by level 3 you have to start playing safer. After level 3 you need to make sure you're not about to get ganked before you use E to harass the enemy laner.

At level 5 you want to stop using skills altogether and save mana for your level 6 gank.

When you hit level 6 clear the wave immediately, then go gank bot, get a doublekill. Tell them you're going to do it early, talk to them, get them to set it up for you. Your ganks are very strong and Valor moves fast enough that you don't need to worry about it being warded so much, but your lack of CC means you want the laner to start the fight and you to dive in after.

Mid game:
Ignore the enemy mid unless you really think you can punish them. Just clear waves and gank on ult cooldowns. Between ult cooldowns do wraiths if you've got blue buff, otherwise just waveclear and conserve your mana.

Late game:
After level 11 your power spike is starting to decline, and you need to start playing very very carefully. You're probably saving up for your BotRK at this point and the enemy lanes aren't as terrified of you as they were at level 6.

If you're far behind at this point, you might have to split push. You're good at it, you've got self wards and your ult is an amazing escape tool, but you still have to ward up and be careful. You're not Nidalee.

If you're ahead, Quinn has a strong teamfight but it can be a little tricky. You never use your ult at the start of a teamfight. You want to poke with your Q, which is where your CDR boots come in handy, it's a good poking tool and it has a short cooldown. Auto enemy divers and poke with Q.

You use your ult to clean up the fight and make sure no enemy champions get away. When the fight is decided and the low health enemies try to run away, that's when you ult. It will prevent them from escaping.

If you're split pushing and a fight starts without you ult immediately and get there ASAP. You're not Twisted Fate or Shen but you can get across the map real damn fast.


Matchups
+ Show Spoiler +

I'm not real savvy on this section yet because I haven't played her in ranked yet, though here are a few points I've found.

1 - She's strong against melee mids and weak against long ranged mids who are constantly pushing the lane, or ones who have instant click hard CC (Ryze)

2 - She likes to gank lanes that can CC for her.

3 - She likes poke comps and big AoE Black Cleaver comps for teamfights. MF or Wukong with a BC makes her ult hit really, really hard. Poke comps with say Jayce synergize with her very well, you can poke with the team with your Q, and when they're too low to fight you ult and prevent them from running away.

I did some practice with a friend going MF and building a fast BC while I built a fast LW, and our ult combo was getting me quadra and pentakills. Was real fun.


A final note
This guide is very much a work in process. I've done maybe 50-75 Quinn mid games, but don't think I have her figured out enough yet for it to be guide worthy. So if you're trying her out and have any suggestions, or find any videos of pros playing her mid, plz post.

Thanks!

http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-25 17:22:32
May 02 2013 00:14 GMT
#2
Extra Bits
[image loading]


Champion Patch Notes
+ Show Spoiler +

Patch 3.6 - 2013-04-30

Blinding Assault
- Now has a 0.5 ability power ratio.

Heightened Senses
- Passive as Quinn now grants 20/30/40/50/60 movement speed in addition to the attack speed bonus.

Vault
- Now briefly interrupts the target.

Tag Team
- Maximum movement speed bonus increased to 80/90/100% from 80% at all ranks.
- Base movement speed bonus increased to 20/30/40% from 20% at all ranks.
- Cooldown reduced to 140/110/80 seconds from 140/120/100.
- Skystrike can now be cast 1 second after activating Tag Team, down from 2.5.



Patch 3.5 - 2013-04-14

Harrier
- Valor now marks targets slightly more frequently
- Targets are now marked more immediately when Valor lands on the target

Vault
- Quinn now lands closer to her target when using Vault from far away


Skins
Phoenix Quinn

Videos
Quinn and Valor Champion Spotlight

Lore
+ Show Spoiler +
Quinn and Valor are an elite ranger team. With crossbow and claw, they undertake their nation's most dangerous missions deep within enemy territory, from swift reconnaissance to lethal strikes. The pair's unbreakable bond is deadly on the battlefield, leaving opponents blind and riddled with arrows long before they realize who they're fighting: not one, but two Demacian legends.

As a young girl, Quinn shared a hunger for adventure with her twin brother. They dreamed of becoming knights, but lived a quiet, humble life in the rural borderlands of Demacia. Together they imagined triumphant battles in faraway lands, seizing glory for their king and slaying foes in the name of Demacian justice. When daydreams alone could no longer satisfy their warriors souls, they embarked on daring wilderness adventures in search of true danger. One such quest turned to tragedy when a terrible accident claimed her brother's life. Overcome with grief, Quinn abandoned her dreams of knighthood.

On the anniversary of her loss, Quinn gathered the courage to return to the scene of the tragedy. To her surprise, she found a wounded Demacian eagle at the site of her brother's death - a rare and beautiful bird long believed extinct. Quinn nursed the fledgling back to health, and as they grew up together, a deep bond formed between the two. She saw the same quality in her newfound friend that had lived within her brother, and so she gave him the name "Valor." The pair found strength in each other, and together they pursued the dream she had once abandoned.

The Demacian army had never seen heroes like Quinn and Valor. Their deadly skills quickly set them apart from their rank-and-file peers, but many still had their doubts. How could a common-born girl, even with such a powerful creature at her side, forego years of military training? Quinn and Valor proved themselves on one critical mission, tracking down a Noxian assassin who had evaded an entire Demacian battalion. When they brought him to justice, they finally earned the admiration and respect of their nation. The two now serve as living, fighting icons of Demacian strength and perseverance. Together, Quinn and Valor will stand against any threat to their beloved home.

Journey into the Freljord: Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6


Also, special thanks to lilwisper for buying Quinn for me and letting me try this build out. Really great guy
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
w(oO)t
Profile Joined November 2009
New Zealand40 Posts
May 03 2013 12:57 GMT
#3
I tried your build path today and I must say it flows very nicely into late game.

Nice guide Ketera
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
May 03 2013 15:16 GMT
#4
Thanks.

Any thoughts on your games? Matchups etc?

Stories plx
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
YouGotNothin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States907 Posts
May 03 2013 16:13 GMT
#5
This is a pretty solid build that I think would work fine in top lane also. I a lot of times prefer getting merc treads as boots though, Quinn feels very vulnerable to CC particularly when she is in bird form. Also if anyone cares Quinn is pretty awesome in Twisted Treeline with her free vision.
I got nothin'...
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
May 04 2013 04:17 GMT
#6
I think people gave up on bot lane Quinn too easily. Her roaming potential obviously makes her strong mid since she can go and gank lanes but she wins a straight 1v1 against any ADC. Sometimes you can let your tanky support bait the enemy team and then you just ult and destroy the enemy ADC after the enemy support has blown everything on your support. You can also use her ult to get to mid lane from bot quickly to siege mid tower before the enemy bot lane is even half way there. I think her team fighting is pretty meh though unless the enemy ADC has poor positioning because then you can just go and murder them (and often times escape if the ADC's positioning is truly bad). Or otherwise you just use your ult for clean up which is something she's really good at (like probably better than any other ADC at cleaning up fights).

I've been playing her a bunch lately. I think she can definitely work as a traditional ADC. The recent buffs helped her a lot.

sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
May 04 2013 04:40 GMT
#7
Being a top lane main who's played against quinn a few times, I feel that most common top laners (melees who have both a hard gapcloser and hard CC) give her a really hard time top. Many of the CCs you see top lane will fuck with her vault, even. The longer lane also leaves her really really vulnerable, her vision skill is on too long a cooldown and lane opponents can abuse the nearby brush in ways that aren't possible mid lane.

You might be right that people gave up on bot lane quinn too easily: Landing that blind on the enemy carry is basically a guaranteed win on the trade and you can press advantages very well while saving vault for disengage. At this point, your ult is more for going all-in in 2v2s (doesn't matter if you're in melee range if you're all-in against only adc+support, it's such a scary allin.)
I don't see the problem with Quinn's teamfight: She's an ADC. With short, but not VERY short range, and very good kiting tools. Teamfight like an ADC (why are you focusing on assassinating the carry?)

I think the biggest problem with bot lane is the number of supports that can totally fuck you over if you use vault for any reason - any support is basically guaranteed to land their skillshots on you, which probably means big CC in the form of snares, grabs, or megaslows, along with heavy damage.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-04 05:00:29
May 04 2013 04:55 GMT
#8
The reason why I don't like Quinn in bot lane is not necessarily because she's bad at bot lane (at worst she's as bad as other short range carries), but because the way she teamfights doesn't fit the ADC roll in the current meta.

An ADC wants to be at max range autoing people. Quinn can do that sure, but her range is short and her kit doesn't offer her many tools to assist in that. Valor doesn't always mark the closest champion, he marks the lowest health one, so even getting her steroid off of hitting her target isn't guaranteed. If you compare Vault to other ADC escape moves it's better for chasing enemy champs because of the slow and Harrier proc, but much worse for staying safe since it temporarily puts her in harms way where AoE's and such can hit her. When she's trying to autoattack from range she basically cannot use her ult at all.

If you look at her more from a mid lane burst mage role in a teamfight, then it makes more sense. Now she doesn't have to buy lots of ASPD and crit because you have an ADC who is putting out the sustained damage, and she can focus on AD and health for her burst combo. She doesn't have to be consistantly autoattacking the whole teamfight, because your ADC is, so she can come at fights from a flank or play safer in the back line now. And now she's not so scared of diving on the enemy ADC, because if she dives and kills them one for one, you still have a sustained damage dealer and now they don't.

I feel like if you're putting Quinn in bot lane you're making it a kill lane, and Draven or Graves are short ranged carries who probably do that better, and still have better teamfights from an ADC's perspective.


Now, maybe you want to do this in an arranged dive comp? Quinn bot might work there. Khazix mid, Zed top, Zac jungle, Quinn ADC, Thresh support, I can see that. Thresh hooks somebody and then all 5 people dive.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
May 04 2013 05:03 GMT
#9
I'm not focused on assassinating the enemy ADC but with Quinn it's always possible to kill an out of position carry and it's something she can do that no one else in the ADC role can pull off. Obviously you should just play as a regular ADC in most fights but if I happen to notice their ADC is horribly positioned and I can jump on them I will as your burst is pretty stupid when you all-in on one target. Her kiting is definitely strong and she can escape from divers really well. I probably under sold her team fighting as she isn't awful at it but compared to other ADCs her team fight isn't quite as potent imo (her passive is good but is semi-unreliable in team fights, her only other steroid is R, and 525 range isn't ideal on an ADC but yeah it's not super awful).

There are definitely lanes that make her life hell but I think she can thrive in low CC bot lanes and as you said her all-in is pretty terrifying. I realize that my individual games don't mean shit but I don't feel like her laning is any worse than a lot of other common ADCs (although there are several ADCs with much stronger lane phases than her).
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
May 04 2013 07:00 GMT
#10
try running this, it's really strong and quite fun:

>longsword into brutaliser
From there get boots of lucidity and stinger, that's your early game core for 40% cdr to get your ult up a lot and let you roam, plus make Q and E spammable in duels.

Then get a BOTRK
If you're doing fine, finish a zephyr and yommus, if you're getting squished a bit too hard, grab a randuins
then do which ever of the above you didn't.

Finish with a maw/merc and last whisper.

I consistently get big sprees in lane with this build, and have gone legendary a few times. I think I've lost one game using this build. It's hella strong. Bruta gives you such insane damage with your passive and W.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
Serelitz
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands2895 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-04 07:59:03
May 04 2013 07:56 GMT
#11
Your masteries feel a bit off to me btw. Havoc is terrible IMO, I'd take AS/the summoner mastery over it.

I'd also not go for crit masteries if you're only running 1 crit item (IE).

Personally I really like running flat AD reds (I would be running lifesteal quints but don't have those sadly). Rush brutalizer > BOTRK > CDR boots > LW/Phage/Hexdrinker > Ghostblade > defensive item > Zephyr (replacing CDR boots with AS boots at this point).
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
May 04 2013 13:40 GMT
#12
I agree that the crit masteries are pretty wasted on Quinn, but Havoc is absolutely not terrible.

In simple terms, it increases all of her DPS by 2%, while 3 points in attackspeed increases only her AA damage by 3%. In order for this to be a fair trade at least 2/3rds of Quinns damage has to come from autoattacks, which is simply not the case.

In more mathy terms, lets look at how much damage her big level 6 burst E->Q->R combo is increased by Havoc in comparison to say, the 3 AD mastery. Assuming a Bilgewater Cutlass as your only AD item.

Base damage
E: 30+0.2
Q: 150+0.65
Cutlass: 100
R: 240+1.0
Total: 520+1.85
Total with Cutlass AD: 566.25

Extra damage given by AD mastery: 5.55
Extra damage given by Havoc: 11.325

This disparity only gets bigger the longer the game goes on and more AD she has. In a 6 item build Havoc is even giving her basic autoattacks more damage than 3 AD is.

For bursty caster types Havoc is mathematically the highest DPS increase of all the non 21 mastery points. It was in season 2 too, you guys just didn't do the math and actually look at it. There's absolutely no reason to not get Havoc.

But you're right that I'm not satisfied with the crit mastery. It's strong once you get some crit (Valor gets the +10% crit damage increase instead of the +5%), but when you're finishing an IE as your final item in most games you never get any crit. It's possible I'll start changing those points to the 3% attack speed.


I'm not convinced on Brutalizer first. Do you guys really think Ghostblade is stronger than IE for her as a final item? And that Brutalizer is stronger than Bilgewater as a first item?

I'm also not convinced on AD reds vs. Apen reds. I've tried both. Apen reds feel stronger to me right from level 1, and I know they scale better the more items you get. Some math on the subject would really be appreciated.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
wussleeQ
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States3130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-05 09:54:49
May 05 2013 09:53 GMT
#13
i went from 14-4 with quinn in ranked to 15-12 total and dropped from diamond 2 to diamond 3 T_T. any whooo, i play quinn top and ad just like any other ad would. had decent results and attribute my recent losing spree to impossible to help teams. i feel one of her greatest strengths asides from laning is her ability to punish people who are out of place. if you see someone just trailing and out of place, you can ulti and get on them incredibly fast and then burst them down. that's all i have to say. build is something like botrk zeal lw then triforce or pd then frozen mallet or iedge. here is my match history.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

that's how i play her at least
BW -> League -> CSGO
Serelitz
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands2895 Posts
May 05 2013 15:48 GMT
#14
You're right on the Havoc, I think I underrated it.

AD reds because rushing brutalizer with arp reds overstacks you on ARP too early imo. Quinn also has decent AD ratios on Q/ult and her steroid is AS, so I don't like rushing cutlass/BOTRK. Brutalizer into BOTRK is a pretty solid opener IMO.

CDR boots are also cool btw, but only for midlane where you limit your roaming by ult CD.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-05 16:33:45
May 05 2013 16:28 GMT
#15
I dunno.

I mean, a lot of the time in Quinn games that I have right now, the enemy mid doesn't really understand it and doesn't buy armor, in which case you're definitely overstacking Arpen if you go Arpen reds and rush a Brutalizer.

If Quinn mid catches on, they won't do that. They'll start with armor runes and a cloth armor, and begin the game with between 30 and 40 armor. They'll rush Seekers Armguard and the disparity will get even higher.

The way I see Brutalizer vs. Bilgewater is that Bruta is better for bullying in lane, and Bilgewater is better for ganking. They both give 25 AD, so you're looking at either 10% CDR and 10 arpen, or lifesteal and the active.

I think the active is clearly better for burst damage on a gank. Brutalizer is better for sustained poking damage in lane, which Quinn is not so great at after level 3 against the majority of mids, unless you get way ahead at levels 1 and 2.

Bilgewater lets you play defensive and sustain in lane with the lifesteal, and at the same time the active makes your ganks much stronger. 100 magic damage added to your combo at level 6 is a lot.

I never said to rush BotRK btw. In the guide I say you should have Bilgewater, CDR boots, a Phage and a Pickaxe before finishing the BotRK. Quinn loves Bilgewater, the short range on its active doesn't matter to her (you can use it in the middle of a Vault btw), but she doesn't need to finish BotRK till 5v5 teamfights are breaking out later in the game.


All that said, I'm experimenting with a build where I get Bruta instead of the Pickaxe. It's more expensive, but I think maybe I like it more. It's real hard to tell and I'd like to do some math on the subject but I don't know how and nobody seems to want to help out. It also forces her 6th item to be either BC or Ghostblade. I think BC is probably better for her, but not sure.

I like Ghostblade, I just think it needs a buff to be as strong as BC. Only having 30 AD on it vs. 50 hurts, and the BC shred passive is probably better than the Ghostblade active, and it gives health.

Ghostblade might be better if you're far behind and split pushing, but if you are you probably aren't finishing a 6th item anyway.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
HOOG
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada52 Posts
May 06 2013 01:12 GMT
#16
Just tried this out, went 4-1-3 in lane, then died a few times as I got greedy. I've probably played 20 games with her down bot and this is a lot more fun :D

PS I'm a baddie who didn't use BoRK/Cutlass once all game, so that probably should have been 5-0 in lane
1250 ELO too stronk!
upperbound
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2300 Posts
May 06 2013 05:34 GMT
#17
On May 06 2013 00:48 Serelitz wrote:
You're right on the Havoc, I think I underrated it.

AD reds because rushing brutalizer with arp reds overstacks you on ARP too early imo. Quinn also has decent AD ratios on Q/ult and her steroid is AS, so I don't like rushing cutlass/BOTRK. Brutalizer into BOTRK is a pretty solid opener IMO.

CDR boots are also cool btw, but only for midlane where you limit your roaming by ult CD.

I don't get either of these points.

Almost everyone will have 20 armor by the time you can get bruta. Even without armguard, most champs will have that in runes/masteries.

That people aren't getting armor against you makes flat pen even better, and getting rid of that last 10 armor should outshine the ratio in almost all cases. I won't derail further with an ad vs. Arpen discussion, but the only time having an ad ratio makes enough of a difference to completely skew the decision is on a defensive ability like riven shield, or an ability with with ad scaling but magic damage (Ezreal ult).
Zariel
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia1285 Posts
May 06 2013 06:48 GMT
#18
Before they gave her the buffs, I would of thought by making her invulnerable (similar to Fizz Playful/trickster) during vault would have solved her issue of being a bit underpowered compared to other ADCs.

Might go give her a try mid lane this week, I tend to find her more exp-hungry when compared to other ADCs
sup
Mondeezy
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1938 Posts
May 06 2013 07:38 GMT
#19
Tried the build out, I'm a fan. I always find myself going too ham though and diving straight into them, should I be saving my ult for when they're lower or simply to get to lanes like a TF ult?
LoL NA: Mondeezy - TL - Riven <3
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
May 06 2013 14:08 GMT
#20
In teamfights you have to wait and use the ult towards the end of the fight. If you use it at the start of the fight you'll do your burst combo but then get killed right after.

Aside from Skystrike Quinns damage as Quinn is very similar to her damage as Valor. Valor has 40% more ASPD, but Quinn gets the Harrier procs which do a lot of damage at high level. Valors big bonus is the movespeed, so you want to use it to guarantee that a fleeing enemy cannot get away. Also, Skystrikes damage is maximized when several people on the enemy team are low health, so if you're in an AoE comp you want to wait and use your burst after the rest of your team has used theirs.

Really learning when to use the ult in a 5v5 fight is the trickiest part of playing Quinn.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
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