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On June 22 2013 06:33 Seuss wrote:
As I said in the GD, I think option A is very likely to become a standard/common practice. Either you'll pick a jungler who can do without Blue (e.g. Zac, Aatrox) and pass that to a needy lane, or you'll pick one who can function without Red (by being able to gank without it, not ganking before 6 anyway, or by simply being a farming jungler).
Also, I'll be around for TROLLS tonight.
Ah. What a coincidence, I was just about to ask about this in this very thread.
Over the last couple of days my team in ranked 5s have tried running Aatrox jungle where we gave blue to the top laner whenever we had blue side and if purple to our mid -- we had a mana heavy/CDR happy champion to recieve the buff. Aatrox can easily jungle without it and he don't really need the CDR for ganks - they feel sort of binary either succed or get away (Q -> E -> prepared bonus damage W auto).
- it've been working surprisingly well, at the least they have won their lanes alone leaving more freedom to the jungle so he could focus more on mid/bot.
After testing in normals Aatrox felt like the best champion for this strategy due to his immense sustain and ability to easily clear jungle with Dorans regardless of not getting the first buff leaving his ganks so much stronger. Zac could do it, but CDR is just so tasty on him it felt a bit weaker and slower for him to setup ganks.
I'd like to mention this is 5 gold players vs equal skill level opponents so I can't say this has any merit at higher levels of play, but I think it's certainly worth trying. 
EDIT: Grammar and more details.
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Aatrox really has absolutely no need for the blue buff.
Zac likes blue, but he doesn't require it. He doesn't really have to have red either, though blue is probably a bit better on him.
We should make a list of junglers who don't require both buffs and a list of laners with scary level 2 potential and see if we can come up with some combos.
I'll have a go off the top of my head:
Junglers who don't need one buff or the other.
Zac (either)
Karthus (red)
Shen (blue)
Zed (blue)
Mundo (blue)
Aatrox (blue)
Tryndamere (blue)
Amumu (red)
Fiddlesticks (red)
Lee Sin (blue)
Malphite (red)
Shyvana (blue)
I don't know junglers well so tell me if that list is crap.
Laners with scary level 2 potential
Annie (either)
Brand (blue)
Caitlyn (red)
Cassiopeia (blue)
Draven (red)
Fiora (red)
Fizz (either)
Jarvan IV (either)
Jayce (either)
Kayle (either)
Kennen (red)
Lee Sin (red)
Pantheon (blue)
Quinn (red)
Renekton (red)
Riven (red)
Urgot (blue)
Wukong (red)
Zed (red)
Ziggs (blue)
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Nunu would be a decent pick for getting Level 2 off a blue buff as well. You'd come to lane with the Golem Consume Buff, Blue, Q and E leveled and you could bully anyone out of lane from there.
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I disagree with that like, so much.
First of all, Nunu can't mid. And second of all, Nunu demolishing a lane doesn't accomplish anything.
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For junglers you could add Shyvana, she certainly does not need blue and IMO her ganks pre-6 are so horrible she might as well donate first red too. ;-)
Jayce first blue and Ezreal/Cait first red seems scary.
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Nunu can mid just like he can top. He just happens to fulfill top role better than mid role (and currently jungle better than either) but with a proper composition Nunu mid is just fine. Red buff or blue buff Nunu with 1 lvl advantage is scary too.
Demolishing lane accomplishes the same as it would in every lane.... it relieves pressure on your other lanes by requiring the help of the jungler mid. Also fed Nunu is not to be trifled with.
Nunu mid is also nice because of his roaming (BB + Ice ball) + potential counterjungling + great dragon control
Main problem is against heroes that can waveclear quickly. Buff may help to mitigate that but probably not.
The real problem is that he is always banned.
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Malph without his red is absolutely pitful... although his pre-6 ganks are god awful, so I suppose he could fall into the "just farm" category. But he's not that good at farming either. I'd probably put Nasus and Elise in the doesn't need red category, because they're both pretty good at farming up a storm, although they can still get stuff done if the opportunity presents itself with wither/cocoon. Not sure if it would be worth it as Elise, but you could.
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Yeah I think the Malph concept more is to hit 6 ASAP and just not gank. He and Fiddlesticks are two who have ridic level 6 ganks and are horrible till then.
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Okay so, lets see.
After discussing our crazy strategy with Scip in GD, I think there are some fair points that the buff transfer needs to go to the mid laner. Basically, if their team knows you're doing it and just attacks the hell out of your 1 buff jungler, they will win, but if your mid is a level ahead and can pressure and roam they can't do that.
Also assuming that it takes 3 people to do a buff without smite, and assuming no lane swaps, that means in a "normal" matchup you have to donate red buff on blue side, and blue buff on purple side.
So given that, lets come up with some combos and see if we can think of anything scary.
Blue side
Amumu/Malphite/Zac w. blue + Annie/Caitlyn/Jayce/Kennen/Kayle w. red (harassy/pushy mid + tank)
Amumu/Malphite/Zac w. blue + Fiora/Fizz/Lee Sin/Wukong/Zed w. red (all in killy mid + tank)
Amumu/Malphite/Zac w. blue + Jarvan/Wukong (bruisery mid + tank)
Fiddlesticks/Karthus w. blue + Jarvan/Wukong/Kennen w. red (Karthus/Fidd + mid with strong initiation)
Amumu/Malphite/Zac w. blue + Quinn w. red (Global pressure + tank)
Karthus w. blue + Quinn w. red (2x Global pressure)
Purple side
Zac/Shen w. red + Annie/Brand/Cassiopeia/Jayce/Urgot/Ziggs w. blue (harassy/pushy mid + tank)
Zac/Shen w. red + Fizz/Pantheon w. blue (all in killy mid + tank)
Zac/Shen w. red + Jarvan w. blue (bruisery mid + tank)
Zed/Aatrox/Tryndamere w. red + Kayle w. blue (All in jungler with Kayle ult)
Zed/Aatrox/Tryndamere w. red + Fizz/Jarvan/Pantheon/Urgot w. blue (All in jungler with dive buddy)
Mundo/Lee Sin/Shyvana w. red + Annie/Brand/Cass/Panth/Urgot/Ziggs/Jayce w. blue (early game/counterjungly jungler + high pressure mid)
That is sort of off the top of my head, anybody see any combos worth trying in there?
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United States10536 Posts
Scip made a lot of good points in the GD, but I'd like to bring to bear fact which turns a few of his arguments on his head.
Specifically, clearing Blue -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Leftover Lizards at Red (or the reverse) is exactly enough experience to hit level 3. If you look at just the whole number values of the camps you'd think you'd be 2 experience short, but in practice the hidden decimals are enough to get you to level 3. As a result you only lose 10-15 seconds and the opposing jungler has a mere ~50 experience advantage. You're incidentally in a perfect position to gank/countergank mid/a sidelane.
Basically at that point you're not meaningfully behind, but you have a lane which is winning by default. The impetus is on the opposing team to make something happen, but you're in a nearly equal position to gank (minus one buff). This, by itself, basically addresses almost every point Scip made.
I'll try and think some on ideal junglers/combos later. I need to get back to unpacking. 
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Intro:
Top: ADC + Support
Mid: Mobile heros (Jarvan, Fizz, Pantheon, Tristanna, Kayle, Nunu etc)
Jungle: Duelist or counterjungler (Mundo, Shyv, Lee, Nunu etc)
Bot: Good 1v2 hero (Kennen? Not sure here)
Protocol:
1a. Mid takes blue with Support or ADC
1.b Jungle takes smiteless red with Support or ADC (whichever isn't at Blue) + "Top" lane and heads to enemy red buff.
Support might want to ward for mid along the way. You don't want to give away your fresh blue buff mid to a lvl 2 gank plus it might tell you if their jungler is not headed for red.
2. Jungle and support sprint for their red buff (you'll get there in time) to kill enemy jungler and/or steal red buff.
3. Snowball by counterjungling relentlessly and taking early towers. Take advantage of early dominance to ward opposing jungle.
Conclusion: Typical Lane Swap + Buff donation means you have big advantage in early red fight and subsequent counterjungling. Hopefully this results in an advantage in top, middle, and the jungle. You sacrifice the bot lane but hopefully a decent 1v2 champ can mitigate that.
If they swap as well they mitigate some of your duo lane's presence in the jungle, in which case a winning mid lane becomes the key to ensuring the counterjungling goes in your favor.
Edit: Blue side
Can be done w/ purple side as well but you probably don't want to lane swap.
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Some numbers.
Zac with a standard blue->red clear
lvl3: 2:50-55
lvl4: 3:50-55
lvl5: 5:30-35
lvl6: 7:00-05
Zac with our strategy
lvl3: 3:00-05
lvl4: 4:20-25
lvl5: 5:30-35
lvl6: 7:20-25
It's notable that with our strategy it's actually faster for Zac to level W->E->Q because it allows him to jump over walls into the small camps. I tested both, it speeds up our strat by about 10 seconds, and also gives him a stronger level 2 if something untowards happens.
With a blue->red clear it's faster to level W->Q->E because of the amount of time spent at buff camps.
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TROLLS today
3 PM Pacific
Testing the same jungle stuff
Monte can't make it this week but you better show up or I will call you all jerks.
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Can't. I'm working tonight 5-close eastern.
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I might be able to join you guys for a game if it goes late or something.
I don't know if I'd be useful in testing anything so since I'm basically Bronze V MMR right now.
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Well according to TL GD there's no difference between Bronze 5 and Plat 1 so we'd love to have you.
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Okay here's what we did today:
Passed red to Quinn (vs Lux), gave blue to Sejuani. Worked really well.
Passed blue to Pantheon (vs. Twisted Fate), gave red to Zac. Also worked well, but I just don't know how to play Pantheon, couldn't pressure as hard as I knew I should have been able to. We ended up losing late game.
Passed blue to Annie (vs Jayce), gave red to Tryndamere. Worked really well. We were obvs outclassing them playwise and derped around a lot.
Passed blue to Fizz (vs. Xerath), gave red to Shen. I have no fucking clue how to play Fizz and I lost fairly hard, but Shen worked fine.
Passed blue to Jayce (vs. Zyra), gave red to Rammus. I have no fucking clue how to play Jayce either and got rocked by Zyra. Accel gate shock blast does zero damage to plants it's dumb.
All in all the tests worked out about as expected. Junglers reported they did not feel like they had been slowed down at all. In the mid lanes where I wasn't a complete moron I was able to pressure very hard, although I wasn't able to get any mid lane kills, all 5 mid laners we played against were super safe laners, unfortunately.
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From that last game, blue build Corki felt completely viable -- I made a lot of mistakes having never gone blue build before (even on Ezreal), but the recharge speed on missiles is crazy with the CDR, and his poke + waveclear + lane trades are huge when he goes manamune/sheen. Plus, I think he is even more in need of the self-peel that comes with IBG than ezreal (I was a total noob at using the procs, not used to having reliable CC).
Also I only remembered to turn on my muramana in like... two fights
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Some other notes:
I feel like the strat is slightly better when you're donating red buff than blue buff, because you can pull the red buff so much farther out of the pit, making getting to lane afterwords way less of a hassle.
It's really important to share the damage the buff does amongst the 3 people so the person the buff is being donated to doesn't have to use a bunch of pots before they get to lane.
I also feel like the important thing with this strategy isn't what mid laner you're picking, it's what jungler you're picking. In all of the games our junglers reported they weren't behind at all, as long as they got to hit level 3 off the two small lizards. The reality is just getting the EXP from the buffcamp is going to put the mid laner ahead, and realistically any mid laner who starts at a level advantage will be able to put some pressure on the enemy mid. So while there are matchups that can capitalize on this, the mid lane really isn't so important. What's important is the idea of picking a jungler who is not reliant on having both buffs.
I think in general it's not a strategy where in a competitive level you'd go "We're going to do this, what champions should we pick", it's a strategy where you'd decide what champions you're going to pick and if your jungler is one of the ones who can do this strat, then you do it.
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On June 29 2013 11:35 Ketara wrote:
Some other notes:
I feel like the strat is slightly better when you're donating red buff than blue buff, because you can pull the red buff so much farther out of the pit, making getting to lane afterwords way less of a hassle.
It's really important to share the damage the buff does amongst the 3 people so the person the buff is being donated to doesn't have to use a bunch of pots before they get to lane.
I also feel like the important thing with this strategy isn't what mid laner you're picking, it's what jungler you're picking. In all of the games our junglers reported they weren't behind at all, as long as they got to hit level 3 off the two small lizards. The reality is just getting the EXP from the buffcamp is going to put the mid laner ahead, and realistically any mid laner who starts at a level advantage will be able to put some pressure on the enemy mid. So while there are matchups that can capitalize on this, the mid lane really isn't so important. What's important is the idea of picking a jungler who is not reliant on having both buffs.
I think in general it's not a strategy where in a competitive level you'd go "We're going to do this, what champions should we pick", it's a strategy where you'd decide what champions you're going to pick and if your jungler is one of the ones who can do this strat, then you do it.
In my opinion, this is a mistake. In a competitive level, you probably don't want to be forced into a situation where you have to switch your game plan drastically. You should always be going into a game with a strategy prepared. Planning a strategy gives you time to play it in real games and find out the intricate points of the strategy, letting you find out things the theory craft might have missed and and overall helps you shape it on the spot by finding the most effective champions for different situations that might arise in a game. Not to mention that it gives your team a boost by removing hesitation if they know it's a strong strategy from experience.
Sorry for not showing up for these lately (even though I did nothing but feed  ), deleted league from my computer cause it was getting boring but plan to re-install it by next Friday
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EPT
